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What is going to make it a success in west after its lack luster performance in Korea?

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  • sumdumguy1sumdumguy1 Member RarePosts: 1,373
    I would say more people playing ad people who are playing receiving and reviewing it well would be a good place to start for this game to be a success.  ;)
  • PepeqPepeq Member UncommonPosts: 1,977
    Originally posted by Thestrain
    Originally posted by blueturtle13

    ArcheAge is the 9th most played MMO in Korea. Was dominating the top 10 in all gaming categories before the F2P move. Yet as it stands after the 1.7 update that improved the game by quite a bit (narrowing the P2W issue that the NA version does not have) I would not consider the 9th most played MMO in their country a failure. Korea is actually an extremely competitive market for games. So this post is a fail.

     

    http://i.imgur.com/TlrN2RM.png

    9th most played MMO in Korea? you don't say. 

    Also i think your reading abilities are at 'fail' here. I never said it is a 'failure'. 

     

    Originally posted by Pepeq
    If the game was a huge success in Korea, would your thread be akin to "ArcheAge the WoW Killer!"?  Clearly just by the sheer number of folks clammering for a beta invite, it's going to do just as well in the west as any other recent release.  People will play crap if it's new crap.  Once it becomes old crap, they move on.  There's a lot of crap out there yet to be played and even more crap coming.  We'll play them all, because, it's new.

     

    Thankfully i don't guess about long term success of any MMO by number of beta invites anymore. if both of these factors had any co relation then we would be sitting on mountain of successful P2P mmos right now.

    If AA was a huge success in Korea then there wouldn't be any reason to question the current LP system because then it would be common sense to think that company is very confident after their smashign success and are ready to take chances in west with their LP system and F2P model.

    So if a game has a life span of 1 year, you won't even play it?  I don't care if the game lasts 1 day or a 1000 years, if those are  entertaining days, that's all that matters.  It's why doom and gloom threads are pointless... if you're not playing the game, it doesn't matter and if you are playing the game it doesn't matter.  Right now all people really care about is... when is it going live.

     

    If you have to question the LP system or it's payment model before the game has even gone live, I think we both know the outcome of your experience when it does go live...  they're not going to change it, deal with it or leave it.  That's the beauty of F2P... you are free to just walk away.

  • ThestrainThestrain Member CommonPosts: 390
    Originally posted by Pepeq
     

    So if a game has a life span of 1 year, you won't even play it?  I don't care if the game lasts 1 day or a 1000 years, if those are  entertaining days, that's all that matters.  It's why doom and gloom threads are pointless... if you're not playing the game, it doesn't matter and if you are playing the game it doesn't matter.  Right now all people really care about is... when is it going live.

     

    If you have to question the LP system or it's payment model before the game has even gone live, I think we both know the outcome of your experience when it does go live...  they're not going to change it, deal with it or leave it.  That's the beauty of F2P... you are free to just walk away.

    I have already decided to try this game for atleast a month but as far as long term investment i am not sure. This is not single player game by the way where you once buy the box you are done. MMOS survive on long term investment of players.

    Could you please point out to me how this is doom and gloom thread? i didn't say 'i am 100% certain this MMO is goign to fail in west'.

    I never played the Asian version i only know from what i read about its transition to F2P model because people were leaving in large numbers. Then i experinced the current LP system and bad F2P model and i wondered if they did something different to the game in over all content and features for its western release? that was the only logical explanation i could arrive to. I thought maybe this is much better improved version so they are confident that players would just let F2P model and LP system slide.

    Hence my topic.

    IMO ofcourse in its current state it will only drive away more player.

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  • ThestrainThestrain Member CommonPosts: 390
    Originally posted by blueturtle13
    Originally posted by Thestrain
    Originally posted by blueturtle13

    ArcheAge is the 9th most played MMO in Korea. Was dominating the top 10 in all gaming categories before the F2P move. Yet as it stands after the 1.7 update that improved the game by quite a bit (narrowing the P2W issue that the NA version does not have) I would not consider the 9th most played MMO in their country a failure. Korea is actually an extremely competitive market for games. So this post is a fail.

     

    http://i.imgur.com/TlrN2RM.png

    9th most played MMO in Korea? you don't say. 

    Also i think your reading abilities are at 'fail' here. I never said it is a 'failure'. 

     

    Originally posted by Pepeq
    If the game was a huge success in Korea, would your thread be akin to "ArcheAge the WoW Killer!"?  Clearly just by the sheer number of folks clammering for a beta invite, it's going to do just as well in the west as any other recent release.  People will play crap if it's new crap.  Once it becomes old crap, they move on.  There's a lot of crap out there yet to be played and even more crap coming.  We'll play them all, because, it's new.

     

    Thankfully i don't guess about long term success of any MMO by number of beta invites anymore. if both of these factors had any co relation then we would be sitting on mountain of successful P2P mmos right now.

    If AA was a huge success in Korea then there wouldn't be any reason to question the current LP system because then it would be common sense to think that company is very confident after their smashign success and are ready to take chances in west with their LP system and F2P model.

    You failed when you stated as an incorrect fact that the performance of the game in it's home land was 'lackluster' it is not, has not been and will continue to not be. You had no proof to back that statement up and you just assumed that it was not a successful game and the facts say that it is. In fact Song has 3 games in the top 10 in Korea. This game is a resounding success already and will only increase in popularity as it matures. Hence the fail post. Funny the explanations that have to be given out for something so simple to understand.

    I am sorry but if you are going to say it wen F2P from P2P model and that it is the 9th most played MMO in Korea then 'lack luster'  or 'average' is the only word that comes to the mind.

    That doesn't mean average games are not fun. I play a lot of average games from time to time. I wonder why you taking it so personally unless you have some personal relation to the game.

    If rank 9 in most played MMOS in Korea and going F2P from P2P is considered 'resounding success' then i guess we have to find a new word to explain WOW's success.

    I guess we don't have access to similar English vocabulary.

     

  • fiontarfiontar Member UncommonPosts: 3,682

    I personally think the game doesn't have high hopes of success here with it's current business model and mechanics.

    I think there is really only one way the game could be more successful here than it was in the East. This game is very similar to many other Eastern market games, so it get's judged there against it's peers. In the West, there is a lack of good Eastern style and "sand-boxy" AAA MMOs.

    The game might find some success here based on it's relative novelty. Maybe.

    I do not think Trion has found the proper balance between Patron and Non-Patron Status. I don't think Labor is priced fairly in the cash shop. I also am not certain how well Free For All PvP, even against members of one's own faction, will fly in the West. FFA PVP has been extremely niche here and there is no shortage of @$$hats here who ensure it remains extremely niche.

    The Justice system is a neat concept, but I don't think it will have any real impact on the kinds of behaviors guaranteed to drive all but the niche PvP players from the game. We just aren't mature enough here to self regulate in a FFA environment.

    Nostalgia and Novelty are the only reasons I will play at all, but I know it probably won't end well.

     

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
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  • YaevinduskYaevindusk Member RarePosts: 2,094

     

    It's hard to make a direct statement as to why it failed in that market.  I've friends there who tried it out (and let me play it years ago) both when it launched there and up to a certain patch which escapes me.  Apparently there was a patch that a lot of people hated and caused a max exodus; the game is a pure grind in a lot of ways, and the Labor Point system was something a lot of people didn't want to deal with.  The same could be said for the original FFXIV with it's fatigue system.

     

    This game was built from the ground up to be a Korean game; I would be be surprised and horrified if it does well in the west.  Developers might think the Facebook monetization system is okay by the consumer and the genre will head in all the wrong directions.  It's far from being a Sandbox game in a lot of ways, though hiding the sandbox features it does have behind paywalls will, in the end, harm that side of the genre as a whole if a game does such and succeeds.  Developers may start to use cheap tactics in both systems and selling from then as opposed to coming up with complexity that resolves issues and time instead of a "you're out of labor points!  Buy more in the facebook shop to keep on playing" way to extend playability and "regulate" the economy.  This is just plain lazy, and is a reason I've seen thrown around by people on why limiting even subscriber's playtime is good since the game won't be beat as fast.

     

    The community will also be a deciding factor -- and that's where the two differ the most.  In many ways the eastern community has a thing where they believe it's their job to help others if they're powerful and they see a new or weaker player.  This is the opposite, where we like to show off and yell at new players for slowing us down if they do something wrong.  This might translate into better PvP -- which is a focus of the game -- for the west since there will no doubt be a massive amount of trolls whole do nothing but attack low level players and pretend they're the best PvPers in the world.  Though as someone else pointed out, there is a reason why Lineage -- A PvP focus game -- has failed here and is still wildly successful over there.  Indeed, why every PvP only game so far has had less than appealing figures when released in the west.

     

    To make this game a success, they should just make no limitations with subscribers.  I'm not sure pure P2P is smart as it's technically a new IP in the West and needs players to try it, but there should be no limit on the P2P side of things.  Even if they have to make P2P only servers and leave F2P servers as they are now.  That would take away the "unfair advantage" of subscribers while also making so subs don't have to worry about playing what is essentially facebook 2.0 when all things are considered.

     

    When I first learned that Trion acquired publishing rights of AA I was a little worried.  It was a game I played when nobody knew it existed, and I was far from impressed by then.  Though maybe they would be able to do it justice, but it seems the developers have more power in the relationship than they do.

    Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing).  German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century.  Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now).  I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things).  In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while.  If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.

    Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this.  If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own.  Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis.  Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,935
    Originally posted by Bad.dog

    You bet ....that 50 cents a day is a killer

    Lol!

  • syriinxsyriinx Member UncommonPosts: 1,383
    Originally posted by DMKano

    What is it going to make it a success?

    1. It will have to cover Trion's and XL's cost to get the game up and running in US and EU (hardware/localization etc...). My personal guess is that with Founder pack sales they covered this cost several times over already

    2. Each month - the game would have to be running operationally profitable above some XXXXX margin that XL and Trion agreed to.

     

    That is what it will take to make it a success.

    Game will make money

    It will probably be the best performing Korean game ever in the west, though it doesn't have any competition really since none of them have caught on.

     

    My guess is it will perform somewhere around how Rift does-medium/low but loyal player base.

     

    And I would call that a success for a Korean PvP game.

     

  • MikileetMikileet Member UncommonPosts: 4

    You know, the sad thing about this thread is that no one has any real information. In the NA version crafting/non combat activities, i.e.. fishing gathering etc, take labor points. Combat activities do not, equipping items does not use any labor, and you regen labor overtime so if you do some crafting then go kill some mobs you gain labor back also, labor isn't made to limit what you can do in game necessarily its to get people to work together, i do work for people spending my labor so that i can get a bit of coin and some extra proficiency. The game is designed to get people to work together. Also in terms of getting ganked. Half the starter continents, Nuia and Haranya, are safe zones where you can't be PKed, and if someone is a regular murderer or criminal they become pirates and are not allowed on the continents so they cant pk you. Will you get PKed in AA yes, is it as bad as people make it out, no just don't put yourself in harms way. 

     

    Also unless something has changed the only difference in patron vs non patron in game is. ability to own land, which is not necessary to the game and labor regen which for non patrons is last i heard supposed to be 5 vs 10 for patrons.

  • sbantingsbanting Member Posts: 238
    Originally posted by Mikileet

    You know, the sad thing about this thread is that no one has any real information. In the NA version crafting/non combat activities, i.e.. fishing gathering etc, take labor points. Combat activities do not, equipping items does not use any labor, and you regen labor overtime so if you do some crafting then go kill some mobs you gain labor back also, labor isn't made to limit what you can do in game necessarily its to get people to work together, i do work for people spending my labor so that i can get a bit of coin and some extra proficiency. The game is designed to get people to work together. Also in terms of getting ganked. Half the starter continents, Nuia and Haranya, are safe zones where you can't be PKed, and if someone is a regular murderer or criminal they become pirates and are not allowed on the continents so they cant pk you. Will you get PKed in AA yes, is it as bad as people make it out, no just don't put yourself in harms way. 

     

    Also unless something has changed the only difference in patron vs non patron in game is. ability to own land, which is not necessary to the game and labor regen which for non patrons is last i heard supposed to be 5 vs 10 for patrons.

    This exactly, some are trying to make out how bad the LP system is, but it really isn't bad. You get 5 LP every 5 mins while online, as FTP, 10 LP every 5 mins as a Patron while online, and 5 LP every 5 mins while offline. Just like the quote says, you spend your LP, you go and do some quests, watch the AH, check on Farms, travel, explore, then by the time you need more LP you've got enough back. Is it endless, no, but is it super restrictive, not really. Even if, as a free to play, player you make a friend with a patron, you can become a family with them and then use their house/farm, to help each other out, spreading the cost of the LP.

     

    This is an MMO, made for people to get together and help each other, fight together, farm together, and the cash shop is all basically fluff imo, I didn't see anything OP.

    image

  • richeriche Member UncommonPosts: 3
    Originally posted by sbanting
    Originally posted by Mikileet

    You know, the sad thing about this thread is that no one has any real information. In the NA version crafting/non combat activities, i.e.. fishing gathering etc, take labor points. Combat activities do not, equipping items does not use any labor, and you regen labor overtime so if you do some crafting then go kill some mobs you gain labor back also, labor isn't made to limit what you can do in game necessarily its to get people to work together, i do work for people spending my labor so that i can get a bit of coin and some extra proficiency. The game is designed to get people to work together. Also in terms of getting ganked. Half the starter continents, Nuia and Haranya, are safe zones where you can't be PKed, and if someone is a regular murderer or criminal they become pirates and are not allowed on the continents so they cant pk you. Will you get PKed in AA yes, is it as bad as people make it out, no just don't put yourself in harms way. 

     

    Also unless something has changed the only difference in patron vs non patron in game is. ability to own land, which is not necessary to the game and labor regen which for non patrons is last i heard supposed to be 5 vs 10 for patrons.

    This exactly, some are trying to make out how bad the LP system is, but it really isn't bad. You get 5 LP every 5 mins while online, as FTP, 10 LP every 5 mins as a Patron while online, and 5 LP every 5 mins while offline. Just like the quote says, you spend your LP, you go and do some quests, watch the AH, check on Farms, travel, explore, then by the time you need more LP you've got enough back. Is it endless, no, but is it super restrictive, not really. Even if, as a free to play, player you make a friend with a patron, you can become a family with them and then use their house/farm, to help each other out, spreading the cost of the LP.

     

    This is an MMO, made for people to get together and help each other, fight together, farm together, and the cash shop is all basically fluff imo, I didn't see anything OP.

     

    It is bad for f2p players, for example some normal player play every day 4h, then go to sleep,work/school and back to play. If he is p2p he will get 1500 labor points every day. F2p player who play same will have only 240 labor points every day.  You can't do anything with only 240 labor points, just opening one purse on lvl50 can cost 100 labor points.

    But that is only one problem, we can say that f2p is just trial and you need pay subscription to truly play game. But then there is problem of cash shop. Not just labor pots in cash shop, there are much bigger problems there, for example regrade pots that will raise your chances to upgrade your armor, but that is just start.

    Archeage is typical gear grind game, getting best gear in game is not easy and need lot of time and grind. And better gear give you significant advantage over players who have lesser gear. Here we get to another problem, there will be APEX in cash shop, that you can buy with real money and sell in game for game gold. So basicly you buy ingame gold with real money. That maybe wouldn't be problem if you couldn't also buy best gear in game with gold too, all best gear can be sell on auction. So with cash shop you can buy best armor and weapons in game if you spend enough money and have significant advantage even than players that pay subscription but don't spend money in cash shop and will need grind months just to be on same level as someone who spend money in cash shop. 

  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916
    I actually like the the crafting aspect of this game. This is why I will play it. Although I am going to subscribe as 9 bucks is nothing and I think you really need to sub to appreciate the game. But yeah 9 bucks is less than 1 meal in a restaurant. I make that money in like 10 min anyway.

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  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916

    AA in the west will most likely be destroyed by its own player base.

     

    You see, apparently the game design "forces" players to buy goldz from goldsellers, otherwise "you cannot compete with those that do"....

     

    And in a heavily PVP-oriented game, you MUST be able to at least compete equally. Well, ideally you should have better gear than everyone else so that you can just faceroll to victory.

     

    The stress of this competitive environment is inevitably going to drive players into the arms of the goldsellers. I mean, what other choice do they have ? We all know that "everyone else is going to do it", so it's probably best to jump in ahead of them to gain an early advantage...

     

    image

     

  • jesteralwaysjesteralways Member RarePosts: 2,560
    Originally posted by Thestrain

    I find it really strange that a game which had to go F2P to survive in Korea is being released with LP system that is just going to drive a lot of players away. Trion has a good F2P system with Rift so i am wondering why not apply same system to AA?

    The game can not survive on P2P model alone. An option to sub with patron system of Rift could have been a much better deal.

    What is going to be different this time in west that Trion is so sure that with current system AA <ould be="" a="" success?="" for="" me="" personally="" game="" which="" failed="" to="" do="" well="" in="" its="" own="" country="" doesn't="" stand="" chance="" western="" market.

     

    You post is filled with ignorance. 1st of all LP is core design of the game, it is not added just for western version. Secondly, the game was subscription only in korea and as expected of a owpvp game it became severely niche. to counter that xlgames added a f2p server that was selling "convenience" which in turn was LP pots and that server became highly popular; well at least as popular as a owpvp game can be. so then they decided to merge both servers and drop subscription and turn the game into total pay2win crap without any LP regen; the only way to get LP back was to wait for weekly reset or LP pots and not to mention there is no patron/subscriber bonus too. Now comes western version, where we have a publisher like trion trying to provide all of their players something acceptable, not the korean pay2win crap. but it seems like players in western market are nothing more than cheap freeloaders who want everything for free. and also there maybe a subscription through cash shop system like Rift added later to the game; they are eager to see initial acceptance before they add a feature which may cut down profit.   

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  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,584
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by iridescence

    IMO the game should just ditch the damn cash shop and  go P2P. I'd be happy to pay the sub for it as it offers some things not currently present in other games. But the fact that the sub isn't enough and I may have to spend more money in cash shop is a real turn off to me and may turn off others as well, plus the fact that labor points put a limit on how much I can actually play a game I'm subbing for the way I want (even if I rarely run out the principle still bothers me).

     

    I doubt the game could survive with cosmetic only F2P or like whatever Rift has. It's still a pretty niche game but could develop a loyal following. The monetization model is working against it though.

     

     Pretty much covers it all. Game is nothing but a cash grab.

    if you played teh alpha before the 1.4 patch hit who did bring the whole F2P to it, you would notice the game was pretty solid and nice before, after it it really did lost a lot of his spark, the core is still there, but some changes really did make things too simple and more grind in nature, but diferent from waht the OP thinks Labor was still there,

    the main reason I think is F2P players can't do any craft, they can'te ven put things to sell on AH (don't know if they changed it) and with a cap of 2k labor, best way to gather money by killing mobs is opening money bag the mobs drops sometimes and that cost labor from 1 to 15, also now indentifying items require labor too 100 it also now drop some rare money chest who cost 100 labor to open, so with all that and with a 2k limit cap why anyone would spend the labor who can only be recoveredby playing? also you can't own house and a farm with f2P

     

    buying labor potions is still a way and see because it have a 12 hour CD and that would only lower the wait time, and till the game launches with all changes they said would do who could fix some of the problems now can't say much more

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  • huxerhuxer Member Posts: 12
    I'd rather they were upfront about the fact that it is P2P. I'm fine with Subscription games, in fact I prefer them.  What I don't like is companies trying to trick me, this seems like what is happening here.  I wanted to play this game so bad years ago and they talked all arrogant about how it would be going to Korea first, then they went to Russia.  Pretty much intentionally alienating the western audience.  Now they want to release it in the west after it has essentially failed in it's initial markets and it starting to look/feel dated?  What's more you want to 'hide' the P2P aspect using labor points and a cash shop to try to twist out extra monies from the employed 'whales'?  Sorry bro, you burned that bridge years ago.
  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,935
    Sorry for my ignorance, but when did the game originally launch in Korea?
  • huxerhuxer Member Posts: 12
    Originally posted by grimal

    Sorry for my ignorance, but when did the game originally launch in Korea?

     

    January 15, 2013
  • Bad.dogBad.dog Member UncommonPosts: 1,131
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    AA in the west will most likely be destroyed by its own player base.

     

    You see, apparently the game design "forces" players to buy goldz from goldsellers, otherwise "you cannot compete with those that do"....

     

    And in a heavily PVP-oriented game, you MUST be able to at least compete equally. Well, ideally you should have better gear than everyone else so that you can just faceroll to victory.

     

    The stress of this competitive environment is inevitably going to drive players into the arms of the goldsellers. I mean, what other choice do they have ? We all know that "everyone else is going to do it", so it's probably best to jump in ahead of them to gain an early advantage...

     

    image

     

    Only game I ever played that  goldsellers  didn't influence the game was GW2 for sure

  • ThestrainThestrain Member CommonPosts: 390
    Originally posted by jesteralways
    You post is filled with ignorance. 1st of all LP is core design of the game, it is not added just for western version. Secondly, the game was subscription only in korea and as expected of a owpvp game it became severely niche. to counter that xlgames added a f2p server that was selling "convenience" which in turn was LP pots and that server became highly popular; well at least as popular as a owpvp game can be. so then they decided to merge both servers and drop subscription and turn the game into total pay2win crap without any LP regen; the only way to get LP back was to wait for weekly reset or LP pots and not to mention there is no patron/subscriber bonus too. Now comes western version, where we have a publisher like trion trying to provide all of their players something acceptable, not the korean pay2win crap. but it seems like players in western market are nothing more than cheap freeloaders who want everything for free. and also there maybe a subscription through cash shop system like Rift added later to the game; they are eager to see initial acceptance before they add a feature which may cut down profit.   

    I never claimed to know core mechanics about the Korean version. That is why i specifically asked if Trion made any drastic changes to the game for western release. 

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