Originally posted by NanfoodleTrust me, this is not outside of what they are promising.
...and as said before, you do not know what they are actually promising until you have a real game to confront their promises with. Until then, you only THINK what what are saying.
If you watch the video I linked above, you will see that Storybricks NPC interaction is a regular scripted interaction.
I am not saying they are lying, far from it, but you need to put their words into a proper perspective.
Trust me, this is not outside of what they are promising.
...and as said before, you do not know what they are actually promising until you have a real game to confront their promises with. Until then, you only THINK what what are saying.
If you watch the video I linked above, you will see that Storybricks NPC interaction is a regular scripted interaction.
I am not saying they are lying, far from it, but you need to put their words into a proper perspective.
Not scripted. If you dont get what the difference between scripted programing for AI and what Storybrocks is, our conversation is done. Storybrocks is a different beast. With scripting every interaction needs to be scripted. With every action and path a NPC takes it needs to be scripted. With Storybricks its more like making a set of rules and sending NPCs into the world to see what happens. Sometimes it will come out just like they want but other times it will have an outcome no one could guess at. Between players and how you never know what they are going to do and Storybricks having the same nature, this has the possibility to be something new and unique. IF they pull it off. Not saying they will but what they are making is not scripted NPCs.
Originally posted by Gdemami Originally posted by NanfoodleTrust me, this is not outside of what they are promising.
...and as said before, you do not know what they are actually promising until you have a real game to confront their promises with. Until then, you only THINK what what are saying.
If you watch the video I linked above, you will see that Storybricks NPC interaction is a regular scripted interaction.
I am not saying they are lying, far from it, but you need to put their words into a proper perspective.
Not scripted. If you dont get what the difference between scripted programing for AI and what Storybrocks is, our conversation is done. Storybrocks is a different best. With scripting every interaction needs to be scripted. With every action and path a NPC takes it needs to be scripted. With Storybricks its more like making a set of rules and sending NPCs into the world to see what happens. Sometimes it will come out just like they want but other times it will have an outcome no one could guess at. Between players and how you never know what they are going to do and Storybricks having the same nature, this has the possibility to be something new and unique. IF they pull it off. Not saying they will but what they are making is not scripted NPCs.
It's no use trying to explain things to these guys nan. If there were people who didn't know much about storybricks, saw this thread and informed themselves on what exactly it is and how it works, that's wonderful... mission accomplished. The holdouts are just here to pick fights and argue or can't understand the system and how it works no matter how many times it is explained to them. The introduction of a system that breeds random results in an ordered fashion is completely revolutionary in the MMO world, if not the entire world of video games. If people can't or won't see how this system will affect the industry as a whole after 22 pages of very detailed explanations, there's nothing else to be done.
I think that Storybricks system has a lot of potential and I really hope it becomes great.
As I understand it you could compare it in some way to the SIMs games.
In the SIMs every SIM has desires, some are social, some wants success and some wants to eat etc. Your task is to fulfill those desires.
The quests/living world in storybricks seems to work in a similar way but the needs could be for example: social status, wealth or just to create misery for others.
All those needs would create a lot of quests which the players then could do. If a need is fulfilled it could potentially create other quests. If you for example help a farmer to grow better crops by getting fertilizers, killing vermin or giving him seeds it might lead to another farmer being jealous giving you a quest to steal from/kill the first farmer. Or the original farmer could become so wealthy that he could attract bandits, being knighted, build more farms etc. All those quest could in turn generate new shifts in the balance which would generate new quests.
The world would then change around the players. A temple could be a ruin the next time you log in since some NPC:s tried to summon a demon either by themselves or with the help of players. This in turn caused the local church to call a crusade which razed the temple.
As a developer I understand it as you assign needs to every creature and then you assign objects and events in the world values which would affect the needs. A creature attracted to wealth would react to gold and a creature who wants justice would react to a murder but not gold. The creatures would then try to fulfill the needs and the players could help or hinder them if they want.
“Factions are spread out across the land, so there will be multiple opportunities to learn a class, not just "visit one guy on one mountaintop."”
“Being heroes of the world does not just mean slaughtering things; you can build temples to the gods, open trade routes, even help farmers with crops.”
“Even small changes to world are tangible: If you help merchants become wealthier, they walk around in better apparel and show off that wealth. The "quest completion log" is, in effect, an account of the changes you see.”
“NPC groups will ally with and help each other as well as fight against each other.”
“NPCs all radiate influence that others react to. And not only do individual people have have different types of influence, but different groups do as well; races, kingdoms,and organizations all have different kinds of influence that cause different reactions”
“The idea is that NPCs have their own lives: their own wants, their own needs, and their own personalities. Groups, such as races and organizations, also have specific wants and needs fueling their goals. Interactions with players will then be individual experiences. If NPCs have taken a shine to you because of your past actions, they may tell you about things you can do to help out, get glory, or obtain riches. On the other hand, if you've ticked them off, they may totally rebuff you (or maybe try to send you to your death?).”
“Of course, this system is available not only in EQN but in Landmark -- the difference being that players will be able to set the variables for the NPCs in Landmark, dictating what their wants, needs, and desires are, whereas devs do all that in EQN.”
“And remember, unlike in static games, there is no reset button so you can do things over! Once a scenario has played out, the results are permanent.”
“By dropping NPCs with opposing drives in a location with resources in a world they [the players, mhallqvist’s clarification due to not quoting the whole context] care about we have endless opportunities for conflict." And the story doesn't stop when one drive is met -- the NPCs just move on to the next one.“
There was also a hint of pvp in the storybricks panel when the developers talked about the war between the dark elves and the dryads. The said that players supporting opposing factions would give an opportunity for optional pvp.
Originally posted by AG-Vuk BFD ! It's a faction system. So your actions, choices have affects on the various races and factions in the game thereby alter your access and choice in quests and quest locations. It's similar to what Vanguard had. Possibly better instituted. So they saw the potential of what was in Vanguard and instituted it in this game. Not really ground breaking or earth shattering. In Vanguard you could change bad faction with various races either through grinding quests or diplomacy. Surprisingly Sony is borrowing from a game they've just shut down and adding it to a new game. Meh , let me know when it's something truly new and impressive. As I recall they had something less refined in SWG also.
It is nothing like a faction system, at least not in the way you have compared other systems with. The approach as explain in presentations and via the Storybricks detailing is a little more complex then kills x to make y happy.
But killing X will still make Y happy. You will just have to also collect flowers and build a temple to make Y totally love you. Except that you will have no idea what the result of your action will be, so you will just randomly have some npc love while some other will want to kill you.
If anyone has ever played Vanguard they know that there are 4 ways to affect faction. Killing mobs, questing ( run and fetch missions ). crafting certain items in particular areas or the diplomacy card game. None of what has/is being proposed is anything new or ground breaking. The fact that people are actually excited about this shows the lack of experience and naivety of the general community. There were a lot of faction in Vanguard so it could become a very complicated job maintaining those factions. Coincidently Vanguard was owned by Sony and what they are implementing is from a game they owned ? If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.
You dont think permanent change is anything ground-breaking? If you played mmos, and if you like the quest-line that was given, wouldnt it be nice for it to go on? Like after you've have completed your objectives, given an item(s) a playable class or whatever, The AI selects a new foe for your faction to tumble with based on wants needs or if the ogres in Southern Ro are militaristic and like to conquer. Goblins gain too much wealth and are now a faction by itself. The Roh-Song would be like that book in the movie "The Never-Ending Story". None of what i predicted was scripted other than programming the basic "wants, needs". Factions are one thing, but making you care about the world is another. They mention this isnt "good vs evil" that the "good side" might do things that are questionable and it all depends on what you care about. NPC groups are spread all over the world and have Everquest lore tied into them. Conquest in one little area could take weeks or months going back and forth with player intervention like a tug of war.
This AI system would ulltimately be awesome for RP guilds or those who generally care about the lore. Factions are a part of it. Im a paladin i want to help the church, i gain abilities that make me stronger because the more i do for an npc group the more they seek me out, the more the church gets attacked roh-song will tell me where the conflict areas are. the more "fame" i get the more i access more content by other groups or get hunted.
If permanant change was never implemented. This still wouldnt be a step back. I mean, the fact of no quest hubs or the fact npcs seek you out for quests based on criteria is still a step up. I think people are just bitter about SOE or Everquest for whatever reason they have.
It's still scripted response. There is no puppet master sitting behind the scenes pulling strings to entertain you specifically. It's not how it works or is structured in MMO's Basically an amped up version of SW:TOR/KoTOR. Still establishing faction. Whether you like it or not. People need to stop being so star struck by the pronouncement of the MMO huckster salesman hype pushers.
It's still scripted response. There is no puppet master sitting behind the scenes pulling strings to entertain you specifically. It's not how it works or is structured in MMO's Basically an amped up version of SW:TOR/KoTOR. Still establishing faction. Whether you like it or not. People need to stop being so star struck by the pronouncement of the MMO huckster salesman hype pushers.
If you listened to any presentation by the lead designer from Storybricks you would know it isn't salesman talk.
The guy has been working in AI for 25 years and tabletop gaming for just as long. The guy is a geek through and through and his presentations are not pitches, they are informational and I admit sometimes boring....well the presentations detailing the mechanics are boring to anyone not interested....but the information is wildly exciting.
Originally posted by AG-Vuk BFD ! It's a faction system. So your actions, choices have affects on the various races and factions in the game thereby alter your access and choice in quests and quest locations. It's similar to what Vanguard had. Possibly better instituted. So they saw the potential of what was in Vanguard and instituted it in this game. Not really ground breaking or earth shattering. In Vanguard you could change bad faction with various races either through grinding quests or diplomacy. Surprisingly Sony is borrowing from a game they've just shut down and adding it to a new game. Meh , let me know when it's something truly new and impressive. As I recall they had something less refined in SWG also.
It is nothing like a faction system, at least not in the way you have compared other systems with. The approach as explain in presentations and via the Storybricks detailing is a little more complex then kills x to make y happy.
But killing X will still make Y happy. You will just have to also collect flowers and build a temple to make Y totally love you. Except that you will have no idea what the result of your action will be, so you will just randomly have some npc love while some other will want to kill you.
If anyone has ever played Vanguard they know that there are 4 ways to affect faction. Killing mobs, questing ( run and fetch missions ). crafting certain items in particular areas or the diplomacy card game. None of what has/is being proposed is anything new or ground breaking. The fact that people are actually excited about this shows the lack of experience and naivety of the general community. There were a lot of faction in Vanguard so it could become a very complicated job maintaining those factions. Coincidently Vanguard was owned by Sony and what they are implementing is from a game they owned ? If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.
Did you watch the video? You call those excited about this names but at the same time make supposedly concrete assertions on the topic of the thread. In order to do this you would have needed to watch the video which if you had you would know comparisons to Vanguard aren't the same. Yes, this is hypothetical due to SB not being an entirely working system (that we've seen) in EQN.
Yes, I watched the SB. Again there's nothing new here. The only difference is that you have to approach ever npc now to see if they offer a mission or faction perk etc..Instead of having a star or symbol over the head. They've done this in other games. Everything is still scripted. Sony comes along and tells everyone they've designed a new way to slice bread ! We're going to slice it, Horizontally ! People start screaming, Hallelujah ! Sony is amazing etc... All I'm saying is they aren't, everything they've done and are proposing has been done in other games, mainly there own. If you played any number of Sony products you would recognize this. Starting at the original EQ. The fact that they are now incorporating what was also started, done and in use to a lesser degree in SW:TOR just goes to show the old adage. Ecclesiastes 1:4-11 <-- teachable moment
Originally posted by Aelious Originally posted by AG-Vuk Originally posted by Azoth Originally posted by Markusrind Originally posted by AG-Vuk BFD ! It's a faction system. So your actions, choices have affects on the various races and factions in the game thereby alter your access and choice in quests and quest locations. It's similar to what Vanguard had. Possibly better instituted. So they saw the potential of what was in Vanguard and instituted it in this game. Not really ground breaking or earth shattering. In Vanguard you could change bad faction with various races either through grinding quests or diplomacy. Surprisingly Sony is borrowing from a game they've just shut down and adding it to a new game. Meh , let me know when it's something truly new and impressive. As I recall they had something less refined in SWG also.
It is nothing like a faction system, at least not in the way you have compared other systems with. The approach as explain in presentations and via the Storybricks detailing is a little more complex then kills x to make y happy.
But killing X will still make Y happy. You will just have to also collect flowers and build a temple to make Y totally love you. Except that you will have no idea what the result of your action will be, so you will just randomly have some npc love while some other will want to kill you.
If anyone has ever played Vanguard they know that there are 4 ways to affect faction. Killing mobs, questing ( run and fetch missions ). crafting certain items in particular areas or the diplomacy card game. None of what has/is being proposed is anything new or ground breaking. The fact that people are actually excited about this shows the lack of experience and naivety of the general community. There were a lot of faction in Vanguard so it could become a very complicated job maintaining those factions. Coincidently Vanguard was owned by Sony and what they are implementing is from a game they owned ? If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.
Did you watch the video? You call those excited about this names but at the same time make supposedly concrete assertions on the topic of the thread. In order to do this you would have needed to watch the video which if you had you would know comparisons to Vanguard aren't the same. Yes, this is hypothetical due to SB not being an entirely working system (that we've seen) in EQN.
Yes, I watched the SB. Again there's nothing new here. The only difference is that you have to approach ever npc now to see if they offer a mission or faction perk etc..Instead of having a star or symbol over the head. They've done this in other games. Everything is still scripted. Sony comes along and tells everyone they've designed a new way to slice bread ! We're going to slice it, Horizontally ! People start screaming, Hallelujah ! Sony is amazing etc... All I'm saying is they aren't, everything they've done and are proposing has been done in other games, mainly there own. If you played any number of Sony products you would recognize this. Starting at the original EQ. The fact that they are now incorporating what was also started, done and in use to a lesser degree in SW:TOR just goes to show the old adage. Ecclesiastes 1:4-11 <-- teachable moment</p>
Their and there bro, learn the difference. And no, storybricks has not been done before in the MMO landscape, the Sims or the AI from civilization would be the closest thing to what they are putting together but even then they fall short. The entire game is based around the interactivity with NPC'S and the random results those interactions produce... even between NPC'S themselves. Please do some reading before you start stating things as fact.
Their and there bro, learn the difference. And no, storybricks has not been done before in the MMO landscape, the Sims or the AI from civilization would be the closest thing to what they are putting together but even then they fall short. The entire game is based around the interactivity with NPC'S and the random results those interactions produce... even between NPC'S themselves. Please do some reading before you start stating things as fact.
You're showing your naivety . This is an MMO it's not real life. The responses are scripted and predetermined. The possible outcomes are permutations of available choices. That said the end result is a faction choice. That still takes down predetermined paths. You may not recognize it do to limited experience , it's nevertheless a fact. It will lock out of certain play option and open others. Wanting to open those play option means closing previously opened ones. Sony's game Vanguard which coincidently was designed to be the successor to EQ. Had a similar structure in place. If you had positive faction with dark elves it meant you could roam their territory and enter towns without fear of attack. That applied for all faction that were " freinds/allied". Ogres were enemies of the dark elves. So you couldn't go near their territory or those allied to them. Fortunately not many. Could you change this standing. Of course , craft your way to a friendly faction status, diplomacy , or kill mobs. Killing mobs was always the riskiest since it could be a double edged sword, since it affect standing with other factions faster then you may have thought. The basis of all MMO's is interacting with NPC's. There is nothing random here. It's a computer program of limited capacity. Bro, learn the difference.
I've heard it a countless times before from just about ANY game dev about their grand plans, when it comes to final product - it's a pale shadow of original plan.
I'd love nothing more than to be COMPLETELY wrong here - as I can't tell you how much I'd love to play SoE's vision coming to an actual final game exactly as promised.
I just don't see it happening at this time.
Then why do you pay any attention to games before they are released? Heck even what is seen in Beta could be drastically different come release day.
If you live in a world of doubt and disbelief, seems kind of pointless to involve yourself in the conversation.
I'd love for you to be wrong as well. Difference is I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt until they prove themselves to be either to be flat out liars or unable to produce what they've hyped/said they can.
While obviously not similar, here's where my mind is at. Imagine a couple brothers trying to build a contraption that would allow some form of flight. They held a local meeting to get feedback and support. Lots of people came and did just that. Then you have this guy in the back grumbling going "It will never happen!". Even though he would love if it did.
What is that guy adding? Sure it's feedback, but is it constructive, even if it is criticism?
We are all obviously free to think and post whatever the heck we want, I just am always baffled by those that spend so much time being negative on something they either simply do not like or have no faith in. These are just silly games after all, but some actually want them to me everything we've hoped. Coming in and blowing out our candles going, "Wishes don't come true," seems like a waste of time.
Now come release and the game is as you assumed, alright, time to gloat, laugh, whatever. Before then, you have as much to go on as the rest of us. While those following the hype at least have it to base views on. Not what happened in whatever other games beforehand.
To quote you again:
"Comparing a hypothetical system to an actual working system is pointless."
Comparing a hypothetical game's features and possibilities to what has or hasn't worked in the past seems rather pointless as well. We all have to wait and see, but in the meantime, why not be hopeful that this could be the time it actually works out? What's the worst that can happen, we simply get the same old thing and move on to the next game? Really, all of these subjective discussions are rather "pointless" but we obviously have nothing better to do with our time.
Their and there bro, learn the difference. And no, storybricks has not been done before in the MMO landscape, the Sims or the AI from civilization would be the closest thing to what they are putting together but even then they fall short. The entire game is based around the interactivity with NPC'S and the random results those interactions produce... even between NPC'S themselves. Please do some reading before you start stating things as fact.
You're showing your naivety . This is an MMO it's not real life. The responses are scripted and predetermined. The possible outcomes are permutations of available choices. That said the end result is a faction choice. That still takes down predetermined paths. You may not recognize it do to limited experience , it's nevertheless a fact. It will lock out of certain play option and open others. Wanting to open those play option means closing previously opened ones. Sony's game Vanguard which coincidently was designed to be the successor to EQ. Had a similar structure in place. If you had positive faction with dark elves it meant you could roam their territory and enter towns without fear of attack. That applied for all faction that were " freinds/allied". Ogres were enemies of the dark elves. So you couldn't go near their territory or those allied to them. Fortunately not many. Could you change this standing. Of course , craft your way to a friendly faction status, diplomacy , or kill mobs. Killing mobs was always the riskiest since it could be a double edged sword, since it affect standing with other factions faster then you may have thought. The basis of all MMO's is interacting with NPC's. There is nothing random here. It's a computer program of limited capacity. Bro, learn the difference.
yes, faction plays a part but story bricks is not just faction... lol. can someone really be this stupid or am I getting trolled? ban incoming in 3...2...1...? and thanks for taking the time to explain to me the way faction works, I had no idea after having played EQ for 5 years and practically every other MMO to ever come out. I feel enlightened.
yes, faction plays a part but story bricks is not just faction... lol. can someone really be this stupid or am I getting trolled? ban incoming in 3...2...1...? and thanks for taking the time to explain to me the way faction works, I had no idea after having played EQ for 5 years and practically every other MMO to ever come out. I feel enlightened.
Point being , it's a static environment being that your choice is the only variable. Regardless of the timeframe it occurs in, everything refresh's. See landmark resources do refresh . What you did to the environment was not permanent. So much for that living Storybrick. It's just another name for quest line. Some marketing guru decided it needed to be exciting and imaginative to excite the fanboi's. Seems to have worked. The connotation being that one choice builds on the other leading to a path. But hey, believe what you want. Questing is questing. Which leads to building faction , which determines where you end up at end game for more raids/quests. Sony fanboi's are just too funny.
Originally posted by amx23 This thread is hilarious. "Nothing to be excited about guys! Nothing to see here...."
gives me a few minutes of distraction every hour or two at work so it's all good, even if it is full of trolls.
I had to expand my brain to get the combat panel. I watched it the second time around and found out it was easy and intuitive. This AI panel i dont know anything about it but im watching videos so i cant really contribute. But i have a feeling that what they are implementing can mean a lot for the game and it looks awesome.
"it is articles like this that prove it and anyone who thinks EQN isn't going to be innovative is fooling themselves" .. Or we`ll wait for the game to actually release to prove it!?
yes, faction plays a part but story bricks is not just faction... lol. can someone really be this stupid or am I getting trolled? ban incoming in 3...2...1...? and thanks for taking the time to explain to me the way faction works, I had no idea after having played EQ for 5 years and practically every other MMO to ever come out. I feel enlightened.
Point being , it's a static environment being that your choice is the only variable. Regardless of the timeframe it occurs in, everything refresh's. See landmark resources do refresh . What you did to the environment was not permanent. So much for that living Storybrick. It's just another name for quest line. Some marketing guru decided it needed to be exciting and imaginative to excite the fanboi's. Seems to have worked. The connotation being that one choice builds on the other leading to a path. But hey, believe what you want. Questing is questing. Which leads to building faction , which determines where you end up at end game for more raids/quests. Sony fanboi's are just too funny.
buddy you do know that each NPC gets their own set of bricks that, when confronted with other NPC's bricks, environmental bricks, your PC's bricks and any other bricks in the vicinity, cause said NPC to react in any number of ways... right? this has been explained ad nauseum in this thread and others like it. every NPC is running on a set of variables, not constants. each time they encounter something the bricks and their ranked importance (based on the mob and its personal wants/desires due to it being a dark elf/druid/elemental/whatever) determine how the NPC might react.
Say the NPC is an iksar so it likes water and your character's race is a weak swimmer; the iksar might run straight for the water because it knows it can escape since you cant swim for crap. Now lets say you are playing a mage with a water pet or a shaman with levetate which allows you to continue your pursuit over water with no issues, that same iksar might choose to run for a group of his iksar friends even though they are farther away than the water is because it knows, through the use of bricks, that water won't slow you down and it will end up dying. This is just a tiny example of what is possible with story bricks and how they interact with other things. Story bricks is about interaction between objects in the world and (let me say this again...) how things deal with one another in random ways depending on all variables present in each situation.
Do you understand? Is this too difficult? I can't really make it any easier to comprehend.
yes, faction plays a part but story bricks is not just faction... lol. can someone really be this stupid or am I getting trolled? ban incoming in 3...2...1...? and thanks for taking the time to explain to me the way faction works, I had no idea after having played EQ for 5 years and practically every other MMO to ever come out. I feel enlightened.
Point being , it's a static environment being that your choice is the only variable. Regardless of the timeframe it occurs in, everything refresh's. See landmark resources do refresh . What you did to the environment was not permanent. So much for that living Storybrick. It's just another name for quest line. Some marketing guru decided it needed to be exciting and imaginative to excite the fanboi's. Seems to have worked. The connotation being that one choice builds on the other leading to a path. But hey, believe what you want. Questing is questing. Which leads to building faction , which determines where you end up at end game for more raids/quests. Sony fanboi's are just too funny.
Thats just a method of delivering content. If that one dies another one will probably pop up somewhere and deliver the content. You made me think of the "agents" in the matrix movies. Even so, player choices affect this game 100x more than any other game to date and probably come out for the next 5 years (who knows). We're not excited about that, were excited about the fact that you can experience content and make permanent change in the world. Look at the storybrick system and video panel. Its exciting isnt it? Like a giant game of Risk. Does Risk have permanent change? Yes. Are you gonna argue the fact that the designers have to script the content somehow diminshes the integrity of the AI system now? Are you insinuating the AI system has to procure the whole system? Thats foolish. Youhave to differentiate the AI from a living breathing thing to a Living Breathing World.
Point being , it's a static environment being that your choice is the only variable. Regardless of the timeframe it occurs in, everything refresh's. See landmark resources do refresh . What you did to the environment was not permanent. So much for that living Storybrick. It's just another name for quest line. Some marketing guru decided it needed to be exciting and imaginative to excite the fanboi's. Seems to have worked. The connotation being that one choice builds on the other leading to a path. But hey, believe what you want. Questing is questing. Which leads to building faction , which determines where you end up at end game for more raids/quests. Sony fanboi's are just too funny.
buddy you do know that each NPC gets their own set of bricks that, when confronted with other NPC's bricks, environmental bricks, your PC's bricks and any other bricks in the vicinity, cause said NPC to react in any number of ways... right? this has been explained ad nauseum in this thread and others like it. every NPC is running on a set of variables, not constants. each time they encounter something the bricks and their ranked importance (based on the mob and its personal wants/desires due to it being a dark elf/druid/elemental/whatever) determine how the NPC might react.
Say the NPC is an iksar so it likes water and your character's race is a weak swimmer; the iksar might run straight for the water because it knows it can escape since you cant swim for crap. Now lets say you are playing a mage with a water pet or a shaman with levetate which allows you to continue your pursuit over water with no issues, that same iksar might choose to run for a group of his iksar friends even though they are farther away than the water is because it knows, through the use of bricks, that water won't slow you down and it will end up dying. This is just a tiny example of what is possible with story bricks and how they interact with other things. Story bricks is about interaction between objects in the world and (let me say this again...) how things deal with one another in random ways depending on all variables present in each situation.
Do you understand? Is this too difficult? I can't really make it any easier to comprehend.
You are just confusing people, each npc have a set of bricks which are his variables, but they are not constant ? Do you mean that his likes/dislikes will change ?
It is essentially a quest builder. Many devs use something like that. CCP use similar tool to generate NPC missions.
The discussion went quite off the track so I repost this to show people how Storybricks actually works. It is regular scripted behaviour, just more chained.
People have once again unrealistic expectations.
Since that is "regular" scripted behavior, would you care to come up with an example of a game where the NPCs currently have the range of dynamic behavior and responses comparable to what's possible just in that video?
I've yet to run into a game where if I kill enough of the NPCs fast enough they pull up sticks and move their entire town to some random location.
**
Would like to point out that it doesn't matter how cool StoryBricks it, it really depends on what EQN does with the system as to whether or not it will be cool. That alpha video demonstrates a bit more functionality than SOE has talked about with their "Orc" examples.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It is essentially a quest builder. Many devs use something like that. CCP use similar tool to generate NPC missions.
The discussion went quite off the track so I repost this to show people how Storybricks actually works. It is regular scripted behaviour, just more chained.
People have once again unrealistic expectations.
Since that is "regular" scripted behavior, would you care to come up with an example of a game where the NPCs currently have the range of dynamic behavior and responses comparable to what's possible just in that video?
I've yet to run into a game where if I kill enough of the NPCs fast enough they pull up sticks and move their entire town to some random location.
**
Would like to point out that it doesn't matter how cool StoryBricks it, it really depends on what EQN does with the system as to whether or not it will be cool. That alpha video demonstrates a bit more functionality than SOE has talked about with their "Orc" examples.
I have come to the conclusion they dont know what scripted means and beyond comprehension, so trying to explain what it means is like teaching a turtle to jump. The legs are there, they just dont down far enough to get the lift. Poor turtles.
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...and as said before, you do not know what they are actually promising until you have a real game to confront their promises with. Until then, you only THINK what what are saying.
If you watch the video I linked above, you will see that Storybricks NPC interaction is a regular scripted interaction.
I am not saying they are lying, far from it, but you need to put their words into a proper perspective.
Not scripted. If you dont get what the difference between scripted programing for AI and what Storybrocks is, our conversation is done. Storybrocks is a different beast. With scripting every interaction needs to be scripted. With every action and path a NPC takes it needs to be scripted. With Storybricks its more like making a set of rules and sending NPCs into the world to see what happens. Sometimes it will come out just like they want but other times it will have an outcome no one could guess at. Between players and how you never know what they are going to do and Storybricks having the same nature, this has the possibility to be something new and unique. IF they pull it off. Not saying they will but what they are making is not scripted NPCs.
...and as said before, you do not know what they are actually promising until you have a real game to confront their promises with. Until then, you only THINK what what are saying.
If you watch the video I linked above, you will see that Storybricks NPC interaction is a regular scripted interaction.
I am not saying they are lying, far from it, but you need to put their words into a proper perspective.
Not scripted. If you dont get what the difference between scripted programing for AI and what Storybrocks is, our conversation is done. Storybrocks is a different best. With scripting every interaction needs to be scripted. With every action and path a NPC takes it needs to be scripted. With Storybricks its more like making a set of rules and sending NPCs into the world to see what happens. Sometimes it will come out just like they want but other times it will have an outcome no one could guess at. Between players and how you never know what they are going to do and Storybricks having the same nature, this has the possibility to be something new and unique. IF they pull it off. Not saying they will but what they are making is not scripted NPCs.
It's no use trying to explain things to these guys nan. If there were people who didn't know much about storybricks, saw this thread and informed themselves on what exactly it is and how it works, that's wonderful... mission accomplished. The holdouts are just here to pick fights and argue or can't understand the system and how it works no matter how many times it is explained to them. The introduction of a system that breeds random results in an ordered fashion is completely revolutionary in the MMO world, if not the entire world of video games. If people can't or won't see how this system will affect the industry as a whole after 22 pages of very detailed explanations, there's nothing else to be done.I think that Storybricks system has a lot of potential and I really hope it becomes great.
As I understand it you could compare it in some way to the SIMs games.
In the SIMs every SIM has desires, some are social, some wants success and some wants to eat etc. Your task is to fulfill those desires.
The quests/living world in storybricks seems to work in a similar way but the needs could be for example: social status, wealth or just to create misery for others.
All those needs would create a lot of quests which the players then could do. If a need is fulfilled it could potentially create other quests. If you for example help a farmer to grow better crops by getting fertilizers, killing vermin or giving him seeds it might lead to another farmer being jealous giving you a quest to steal from/kill the first farmer. Or the original farmer could become so wealthy that he could attract bandits, being knighted, build more farms etc. All those quest could in turn generate new shifts in the balance which would generate new quests.
The world would then change around the players. A temple could be a ruin the next time you log in since some NPC:s tried to summon a demon either by themselves or with the help of players. This in turn caused the local church to call a crusade which razed the temple.
As a developer I understand it as you assign needs to every creature and then you assign objects and events in the world values which would affect the needs. A creature attracted to wealth would react to gold and a creature who wants justice would react to a murder but not gold. The creatures would then try to fulfill the needs and the players could help or hinder them if they want.
It looks promising! We will see if they are only words or really innovations.
I must say that I bite my nails with anxiety each time I read something new about this game.
^.^'
Here are some links I found with more information about the AI which I think I haven’t seen in this thread, I apologize if the information isn’t new:
Please note that this seems to be second hand information so it might not all be true.
There are non AI related information as well in the links if anyone is interested.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/08/21/soe-live-2014-more-everquest-next-tidbits/
“Factions are spread out across the land, so there will be multiple opportunities to learn a class, not just "visit one guy on one mountaintop."”
“Being heroes of the world does not just mean slaughtering things; you can build temples to the gods, open trade routes, even help farmers with crops.”
“Even small changes to world are tangible: If you help merchants become wealthier, they walk around in better apparel and show off that wealth. The "quest completion log" is, in effect, an account of the changes you see.”
“NPC groups will ally with and help each other as well as fight against each other.”
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/08/21/soe-live-2014-the-revolutionary-intelligence-of-storybricks-ai/
“NPCs all radiate influence that others react to. And not only do individual people have have different types of influence, but different groups do as well; races, kingdoms,and organizations all have different kinds of influence that cause different reactions”
“The idea is that NPCs have their own lives: their own wants, their own needs, and their own personalities. Groups, such as races and organizations, also have specific wants and needs fueling their goals. Interactions with players will then be individual experiences. If NPCs have taken a shine to you because of your past actions, they may tell you about things you can do to help out, get glory, or obtain riches. On the other hand, if you've ticked them off, they may totally rebuff you (or maybe try to send you to your death?).”
“Of course, this system is available not only in EQN but in Landmark -- the difference being that players will be able to set the variables for the NPCs in Landmark, dictating what their wants, needs, and desires are, whereas devs do all that in EQN.”
“And remember, unlike in static games, there is no reset button so you can do things over! Once a scenario has played out, the results are permanent.”
“By dropping NPCs with opposing drives in a location with resources in a world they [the players, mhallqvist’s clarification due to not quoting the whole context] care about we have endless opportunities for conflict." And the story doesn't stop when one drive is met -- the NPCs just move on to the next one.“
There was also a hint of pvp in the storybricks panel when the developers talked about the war between the dark elves and the dryads. The said that players supporting opposing factions would give an opportunity for optional pvp.It's still scripted response. There is no puppet master sitting behind the scenes pulling strings to entertain you specifically. It's not how it works or is structured in MMO's Basically an amped up version of SW:TOR/KoTOR. Still establishing faction. Whether you like it or not. People need to stop being so star struck by the pronouncement of the MMO huckster salesman hype pushers.
If you listened to any presentation by the lead designer from Storybricks you would know it isn't salesman talk.
The guy has been working in AI for 25 years and tabletop gaming for just as long. The guy is a geek through and through and his presentations are not pitches, they are informational and I admit sometimes boring....well the presentations detailing the mechanics are boring to anyone not interested....but the information is wildly exciting.
Yes, I watched the SB. Again there's nothing new here. The only difference is that you have to approach ever npc now to see if they offer a mission or faction perk etc..Instead of having a star or symbol over the head. They've done this in other games. Everything is still scripted. Sony comes along and tells everyone they've designed a new way to slice bread ! We're going to slice it, Horizontally ! People start screaming, Hallelujah ! Sony is amazing etc... All I'm saying is they aren't, everything they've done and are proposing has been done in other games, mainly there own. If you played any number of Sony products you would recognize this. Starting at the original EQ. The fact that they are now incorporating what was also started, done and in use to a lesser degree in SW:TOR just goes to show the old adage. Ecclesiastes 1:4-11 <-- teachable moment
It is nothing like a faction system, at least not in the way you have compared other systems with. The approach as explain in presentations and via the Storybricks detailing is a little more complex then kills x to make y happy.
But killing X will still make Y happy. You will just have to also collect flowers and build a temple to make Y totally love you. Except that you will have no idea what the result of your action will be, so you will just randomly have some npc love while some other will want to kill you.
If anyone has ever played Vanguard they know that there are 4 ways to affect faction. Killing mobs, questing ( run and fetch missions ). crafting certain items in particular areas or the diplomacy card game. None of what has/is being proposed is anything new or ground breaking. The fact that people are actually excited about this shows the lack of experience and naivety of the general community. There were a lot of faction in Vanguard so it could become a very complicated job maintaining those factions. Coincidently Vanguard was owned by Sony and what they are implementing is from a game they owned ? If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.
Did you watch the video? You call those excited about this names but at the same time make supposedly concrete assertions on the topic of the thread. In order to do this you would have needed to watch the video which if you had you would know comparisons to Vanguard aren't the same. Yes, this is hypothetical due to SB not being an entirely working system (that we've seen) in EQN.
Yes, I watched the SB. Again there's nothing new here. The only difference is that you have to approach ever npc now to see if they offer a mission or faction perk etc..Instead of having a star or symbol over the head. They've done this in other games. Everything is still scripted. Sony comes along and tells everyone they've designed a new way to slice bread ! We're going to slice it, Horizontally ! People start screaming, Hallelujah ! Sony is amazing etc... All I'm saying is they aren't, everything they've done and are proposing has been done in other games, mainly there own. If you played any number of Sony products you would recognize this. Starting at the original EQ. The fact that they are now incorporating what was also started, done and in use to a lesser degree in SW:TOR just goes to show the old adage. Ecclesiastes 1:4-11 <-- teachable moment</p>
Their and there bro, learn the difference. And no, storybricks has not been done before in the MMO landscape, the Sims or the AI from civilization would be the closest thing to what they are putting together but even then they fall short. The entire game is based around the interactivity with NPC'S and the random results those interactions produce... even between NPC'S themselves. Please do some reading before you start stating things as fact.You're showing your naivety . This is an MMO it's not real life. The responses are scripted and predetermined. The possible outcomes are permutations of available choices. That said the end result is a faction choice. That still takes down predetermined paths. You may not recognize it do to limited experience , it's nevertheless a fact. It will lock out of certain play option and open others. Wanting to open those play option means closing previously opened ones. Sony's game Vanguard which coincidently was designed to be the successor to EQ. Had a similar structure in place. If you had positive faction with dark elves it meant you could roam their territory and enter towns without fear of attack. That applied for all faction that were " freinds/allied". Ogres were enemies of the dark elves. So you couldn't go near their territory or those allied to them. Fortunately not many. Could you change this standing. Of course , craft your way to a friendly faction status, diplomacy , or kill mobs. Killing mobs was always the riskiest since it could be a double edged sword, since it affect standing with other factions faster then you may have thought. The basis of all MMO's is interacting with NPC's. There is nothing random here. It's a computer program of limited capacity. Bro, learn the difference.
Then why do you pay any attention to games before they are released? Heck even what is seen in Beta could be drastically different come release day.
If you live in a world of doubt and disbelief, seems kind of pointless to involve yourself in the conversation.
I'd love for you to be wrong as well. Difference is I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt until they prove themselves to be either to be flat out liars or unable to produce what they've hyped/said they can.
While obviously not similar, here's where my mind is at. Imagine a couple brothers trying to build a contraption that would allow some form of flight. They held a local meeting to get feedback and support. Lots of people came and did just that. Then you have this guy in the back grumbling going "It will never happen!". Even though he would love if it did.
What is that guy adding? Sure it's feedback, but is it constructive, even if it is criticism?
We are all obviously free to think and post whatever the heck we want, I just am always baffled by those that spend so much time being negative on something they either simply do not like or have no faith in. These are just silly games after all, but some actually want them to me everything we've hoped. Coming in and blowing out our candles going, "Wishes don't come true," seems like a waste of time.
Now come release and the game is as you assumed, alright, time to gloat, laugh, whatever. Before then, you have as much to go on as the rest of us. While those following the hype at least have it to base views on. Not what happened in whatever other games beforehand.
To quote you again:
"Comparing a hypothetical system to an actual working system is pointless."
Comparing a hypothetical game's features and possibilities to what has or hasn't worked in the past seems rather pointless as well. We all have to wait and see, but in the meantime, why not be hopeful that this could be the time it actually works out? What's the worst that can happen, we simply get the same old thing and move on to the next game? Really, all of these subjective discussions are rather "pointless" but we obviously have nothing better to do with our time.
yes, faction plays a part but story bricks is not just faction... lol. can someone really be this stupid or am I getting trolled? ban incoming in 3...2...1...? and thanks for taking the time to explain to me the way faction works, I had no idea after having played EQ for 5 years and practically every other MMO to ever come out. I feel enlightened.
gives me a few minutes of distraction every hour or two at work so it's all good, even if it is full of trolls.
Point being , it's a static environment being that your choice is the only variable. Regardless of the timeframe it occurs in, everything refresh's. See landmark resources do refresh . What you did to the environment was not permanent. So much for that living Storybrick. It's just another name for quest line. Some marketing guru decided it needed to be exciting and imaginative to excite the fanboi's. Seems to have worked. The connotation being that one choice builds on the other leading to a path. But hey, believe what you want. Questing is questing. Which leads to building faction , which determines where you end up at end game for more raids/quests. Sony fanboi's are just too funny.
I had to expand my brain to get the combat panel. I watched it the second time around and found out it was easy and intuitive. This AI panel i dont know anything about it but im watching videos so i cant really contribute. But i have a feeling that what they are implementing can mean a lot for the game and it looks awesome.
buddy you do know that each NPC gets their own set of bricks that, when confronted with other NPC's bricks, environmental bricks, your PC's bricks and any other bricks in the vicinity, cause said NPC to react in any number of ways... right? this has been explained ad nauseum in this thread and others like it. every NPC is running on a set of variables, not constants. each time they encounter something the bricks and their ranked importance (based on the mob and its personal wants/desires due to it being a dark elf/druid/elemental/whatever) determine how the NPC might react.
Say the NPC is an iksar so it likes water and your character's race is a weak swimmer; the iksar might run straight for the water because it knows it can escape since you cant swim for crap. Now lets say you are playing a mage with a water pet or a shaman with levetate which allows you to continue your pursuit over water with no issues, that same iksar might choose to run for a group of his iksar friends even though they are farther away than the water is because it knows, through the use of bricks, that water won't slow you down and it will end up dying. This is just a tiny example of what is possible with story bricks and how they interact with other things. Story bricks is about interaction between objects in the world and (let me say this again...) how things deal with one another in random ways depending on all variables present in each situation.
Do you understand? Is this too difficult? I can't really make it any easier to comprehend.
Thats just a method of delivering content. If that one dies another one will probably pop up somewhere and deliver the content. You made me think of the "agents" in the matrix movies. Even so, player choices affect this game 100x more than any other game to date and probably come out for the next 5 years (who knows). We're not excited about that, were excited about the fact that you can experience content and make permanent change in the world. Look at the storybrick system and video panel. Its exciting isnt it? Like a giant game of Risk. Does Risk have permanent change? Yes. Are you gonna argue the fact that the designers have to script the content somehow diminshes the integrity of the AI system now? Are you insinuating the AI system has to procure the whole system? Thats foolish. Youhave to differentiate the AI from a living breathing thing to a Living Breathing World.
Is there any footage of these "Story Bricks" and their AI in action?
You are just confusing people, each npc have a set of bricks which are his variables, but they are not constant ? Do you mean that his likes/dislikes will change ?
yes ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3b_3UGc7Es
Since that is "regular" scripted behavior, would you care to come up with an example of a game where the NPCs currently have the range of dynamic behavior and responses comparable to what's possible just in that video?
I've yet to run into a game where if I kill enough of the NPCs fast enough they pull up sticks and move their entire town to some random location.
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Would like to point out that it doesn't matter how cool StoryBricks it, it really depends on what EQN does with the system as to whether or not it will be cool. That alpha video demonstrates a bit more functionality than SOE has talked about with their "Orc" examples.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I have come to the conclusion they dont know what scripted means and beyond comprehension, so trying to explain what it means is like teaching a turtle to jump. The legs are there, they just dont down far enough to get the lift. Poor turtles.