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You like grinding? Really!?!?!?

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  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327

     

    Grind is subjective.  What one player considers a torturous grind another may find thoroughly enjoyable.  It cannot be quantified.  Depending on the player and their predisposed and preferred game style play it may, or may not, exist in a game.  It is, therefore, not measurable and not easily assessed from a design perspective. 

  • aspekxaspekx Member UncommonPosts: 2,167
    Originally posted by Jaedor

    Yet, I enjoy some kinds of grind, like gathering. 

    Ore-whore here! reporting for duty!

     

    never saw a node i didn't wana mine.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,084

    yup, I like grinding. I like combat and the rhythm that one gets in.

    I'd rather just stay in one place (or better yet explore) than just running here, doing a few short things then running there, doing a few short things, etc.

    Additionally, I don't know of many games that allow you to "buy" the things in game that one could earn. One can buy conveniences or weapon/armor skins but I know of no game, op, where you can say "I need new raid gear" and buy it. Or "I want that castle" and buy it.

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by LovrNoFightr

    Some people think that grinding equals fun. Doing the same things over and over again.

    Why is that?

    I'm very happy to see that many MMOs allow us to buy things instead of grinding for them. IMO everything in a game should be able for purchasing. Equipment, races, levels and what have you.

     

    Because combat is fun? D3 is popular precisely because many like grinding. You dont have to though.

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908
    Originally posted by LovrNoFightr

    Some people think that grinding equals fun. Doing the same things over and over again.

    Why is that?

    I'm very happy to see that many MMOs allow us to buy things instead of grinding for them. IMO everything in a game should be able for purchasing. Equipment, races, levels and what have you.

     

    Asking people to explain why they find something fun that you don't is never going to work.

    But, saying that, I find a certain type of grinding fun, yes. I enjoy the old school EQ style where play was slower and a group pulled to a spot and (ideally) had the odd named that they could hit for nice loot on top of the XP. I like it because it is a much more social style of p[lay and, believe it or not, a ton of MMORPGers out there are awesome funny people that are fun to chat to while developing your character.

     

    Good for you that you like buying your in game rewards, I guess. I have always seen that as weak arsed cheating myself. I prefer to develop my character for myself and I prefer play to achieve over pay to achieve.

  • PepeqPepeq Member UncommonPosts: 1,977

    There is nothing in any MMO that isn't a grind.  If you farm, you're grinding.  If you craft, you're grinding.  If you raid, you're grinding.  If you PVP, you're grinding.  If you build a boat, house, Yak, or hamster wheel, you're grinding.  If you do anything, whatsoever that constitutes any form of progression, you're grinding.  Even the act of paying a subscription... is grinding.

     

    If you don't like grinding, you don't like MMOs.  Period.  Cut and dry.

  • KilrainKilrain Member RarePosts: 1,185

    I like the idea of character improvement or gaining access to new things over time played. What I don't like is when these things you're going for are "required" in some fashion to be competitive.

     

    When it comes to PVP games, grinding can definitely make or break a game.

     

    I'll give a third person shooter example: APB:Reloaded - You could play the game for years and never use anything but the starter weapon and still be competitive. Unlocking new items and weapons along the way opens up the game for different play styles and situation adaptation, but it's not completely necessary.

     

    MMO example that I think is/was bad: Darkfall Online - The first iteration of the game was bad, not because it took so long to learn and increase skill levels but because those skill levels and items made a HUGE difference in the way the characters took or dealt damage. This meant that a player just starting out would NOT be able to compete with a a player 6 months out, let alone a player that's been playing for a year or longer. (this had been alleviated for the most part in Darkfall Unholy wars, but this i just an example).

     

    In my opinion, PVE games are a little different in regards to grinding. What I think people see as grinding is how long it takes to get to "end game" and wether or not they enjoy that time. I believe game developers have focused so hard on the end game that they've lost sight of the adventure to get there. You don't keep playing Zelda games because you want to reach the end, you keep playing because the adventure to get there is fun and exciting. I could provide tons of examples from different Genre's showing how the adventure is what keeps a player interested and wanting to keep going. If MMO developers would focus on making the entire game exciting and fun, then it wouldn't matter if it took 10 years to reach max level.

     

     

  • RoguewizRoguewiz Member UncommonPosts: 711

    Grind or not to grind, that is the question.  MMOs are, for lack of a better description, a means to keep you entertained longer than the average single player console game.  Their purpose is to keep you logging in, playing, and giving the Dev your money.  Most games really don't have enough content at release, let alone enough content to allow you to play for an extended period of time.  Without some sort of "grind" AKA Time Suck, most MMOs won't last beyond 2-months for the average player, or see an exodus roughly 3-months after a content patch.  Why?  They've cleared it and have gotten bored.

    Gated Content?  Long quest arcs for epics and stuff?  Sure, awesome!  I love these.  It gives you something to look forward to.  Like unlocking races, classes, new zones, or getting that awesome piece of gear.  What I don't agree with is the ability to purchase everything you can acquire in game.  To each their own.  If they want to pay for that, more power to them.  However a game like that is short lived in my book.

    Do I like grinding?  Heck no, however I accept it as a necessity to keep me playing a game longer than a month.  Whether it be the XP grind, the faction grind, or the gear grind.

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  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    I like Risk Vs reward and getting a challenge. Grinding on the other hand is rarely either of it, doing the same thing over and over offers very little challenge.

    We have to live with some grind in a game which are made so you can play it for years but they could at least get rid of the more mindless ones like dailies.

  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,430

    Grinding can be very rewarding indeed.

    Back in vanilla WoW i mined thorium in burning steppe for 2 weeks, 8 hours a day, for arcanite crystals i needed for my hunter's 'flawless arcanite rifle'. When i finally got it crafted and showed up in my guilds ZG raid, and learned i was the top dps in my guild because of my new gun, i knew the grind was worth it. The fact i can even remember this tells how great of an experience that was to me at that time.

    Other good example could be the grind i did for getting the frostsaber mount in vanilla WoW. I did the same repeatable quest for one month, 8 hours a day. After the first few days i saw another guy killing the same mobs and riding the same routes than me, and i asked if he was doing the same grind. We then grinded for the mounts together for that month, talked a lot, and killed occasional horde characters coming our way. When we finally got our mounts, we took a screen shot as a final reward.

    Would i have bought that mount or the gun from item shop, if that had been possible? Certainly not.

    Achieving something in game makes you feel good, if you buy it or get it without an effort, it becomes worthless.

  • RattenmannRattenmann Member UncommonPosts: 613

    MMOs are pretty much the only genre with something that could be described "grind".

     

    How about people that don't feel like doing anything in a game... just... move... on? MMOs where a better genre when we actually HAD a real grind. It was a social experience that went way beyond what we see today even in the best guilds.

     

    Don't like it? Don't play it. And stop ruining the genre just because you "demand" to play it your way.

     

    Just imagine. I dislike shooting people in the head. But i want to play one of those crazy looking shooters as well! Just gonna cry around untill they remove guns, because i like it better that way. Who cares about the people that made the genre become big,... i want guns removed NOW!

     

    /sarcasm

    MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

    Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Exactly. A shooter is a grind to those players That don't like shooters, but actually the problem is those players. A Mmorpg offers long term gathering and crafting goals, that requires gathering over a long term - I hate shooters but I love this type of gameplay. I also love paying Diablo 3 and Poe, some would call that a grind - but actually it simply good action play.

    The issue is people labelling things they don't like as a 'grind' when actually its clear they should simply avoid stuff they don't enjoy.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

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  • renstarensta Member RarePosts: 728

    Grinding solo epic bosses that can be stolen by people that can kill you is the most fun i ever had in mmorpg's.

    Also i really like normal grinding with a touch of pvp.

    image


    Basically clicking away text windows ruins every MMO, try to have fun instead of rushing things. Without story and lore all there is left is a bunch of mechanics.
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  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by LovrNoFightr

    Some people think that grinding equals fun. Doing the same things over and over again.

    Why is that?

    I'm very happy to see that many MMOs allow us to buy things instead of grinding for them. IMO everything in a game should be able for purchasing. Equipment, races, levels and what have you.

     

    If you don't like grinding why choose the MMO genre over singleplayer? Most MMOs have grind and were founded upon systems that contained grind. But yes, I do like grind.

    I agree with Mitbbs1989 here.  If you dont like the grind why are you playing an MMO?  MMOs are designed around players playing the game for Years at a time not 2 to 3 months.  That is why MMOs today have become wattered down versions of themselves.  To make the grind fast and easy so you can get your loots.  Then when you are bored you quit the game and talk how it should be F2P because its not worth $15 a month.

    Now do we need Grinds in MMOs like we had in UO where Tamers and Bards could take 6 months to a year to GM Taming or Provoke and you might get .1 point in these skills in 1 power hour?  Hell no However should it take you more than 4 to 6 weeks to Do Normal to Heroic full clears of SoO?  Yes

    Should it take you maybe weeks of collecting the best resources in the game to make the best sets of armor or weapons like it did in SWG?  Yes

    Should it take a small guild in AA a few weeks to get enough resources to make a high end ship? 

    Again if any of these actions took only a few hours time to complete why would you pay to play an MMO?   You might as well be free because at the end of the day you can play a few hours an accomplish everything then move to the next game without paying a $.  This is where MMOs have been heading because people think asking them to put more than 2 hours a week into a game is crazy.  Well then MMOs are not for you, again do they have to be old school nuts no.  But they should require effort to obtain things as well as time.  

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by danwest58
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by LovrNoFightr

    Some people think that grinding equals fun. Doing the same things over and over again.

    Why is that?

    I'm very happy to see that many MMOs allow us to buy things instead of grinding for them. IMO everything in a game should be able for purchasing. Equipment, races, levels and what have you.

     

    If you don't like grinding why choose the MMO genre over singleplayer? Most MMOs have grind and were founded upon systems that contained grind. But yes, I do like grind.

    I agree with Mitbbs1989 here.  If you dont like the grind why are you playing an MMO?  MMOs are designed around players playing the game for Years at a time not 2 to 3 months.

     

    Because I'm not playing just for the next ding.

    Because I'm playing for the social interaction and the roleplay.

    Because I don't really care how soon I get my next tier of gear.

    Because I don't really care if I ever reach the level cap.

    Because 'earning my way' and 'paying my dues' are what I do in real life. My gaming is for mindless fun.

    Because my first MUD and MMO experiences had nothing to do with grind, so that's how I continue to play MMOs

    Because most MMOs are so linear and finite that all grinding will do is get me to the end faster.

    Because I'm paying to be entertained, and I don't find laborious tasks entertaining.

     

    *cue the 'instant gratification' comments from MMO flagellates weened on EQ and WOW*

     

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  • GediasGedias Member UncommonPosts: 46

    Grinding to me is fundamental to an MMO.  Whether it's questing, raiding, dungeons, harvesting, crafting, building, pvp, hunting for rares, there has to be some form of progression with a decent amount of time or effort required to make that progression.  The trick I think is to give players as many different grinds as possible or even better mix them up so you can accomplish more than one task at a time.

     

    But I would go ahead and flip that question around, you prefer MMOs that don't have a grind? What exactly would that be, an MMO where you are at max level, max skills, have all the materials available to you so you don't have to harvest or craft?  I feel that would be like Minecraft on creative mode, something I got bored of really quick.

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  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    After playing the early mmo's for over five years, where grinding was how you leveled, it's hard to get out of the habit.  I've noticed that with some, it's easier to grind then quest because some questing have you running from spot a to h, then spot z, then back to a which can take a while and give low xp rewards.  At times I'll throw grinding into the questing mix and do both.

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  • SoandsosoSoandsoso Member Posts: 533
    Originally posted by LovrNoFightr

    Some people think that grinding equals fun. Doing the same things over and over again.

    Why is that?

    I'm very happy to see that many MMOs allow us to buy things instead of grinding for them. IMO everything in a game should be able for purchasing. Equipment, races, levels and what have you.

     

    Professional athletes do the same thing over and over again,

    Musicians do the same thing over and over again,

    They just do it with friends.

    Get some friends and your perceived grind will disappear.

    Or just buy something for that shallow feeling of you gotz shiney.

  • AmjocoAmjoco Member UncommonPosts: 4,860
    Originally posted by Cod_Eye
    Depends on how its implimented, GW2 grind no, FFXI (vanilla) grind yes.

    Exactly! FFXIV No, GW2 yes. :)

    Like someone else said, to each their own.  

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 9,196

    Grinding will always be my way of progression simply because its more open for the player to explore the world and do things his own way and it encourages being social with other players. I am yet to play a  quest based game where you are not pointed in the direction to go or where most of the time you are not playing the game alone.

    Quest based progression is what killed the social aspect in mmos. It made it so a person did need to interact with other players for any reasons at all. I don't see how people do not see this unless its is all they have ever known.

  • Paradigm68Paradigm68 Member UncommonPosts: 890
    Originally posted by LovrNoFightr

    Some people think that grinding equals fun. Doing the same things over and over again.

    Why is that?

    I'm very happy to see that many MMOs allow us to buy things instead of grinding for them. IMO everything in a game should be able for purchasing. Equipment, races, levels and what have you.

     

     

    And some people think that paying a publisher to essentially not play the game is smart. Go figure.

  • CoatedCoated Member UncommonPosts: 507

    I hate having a "!" hand holding me through every point in a game.

    The quests in games used to mean something. There were only the most important quest lines and the rest of your EXP you grinded for it. Now when I play, this is what I see...

    "!"  

    That's my whole MMORPG experience, and yours.... Want to see it again.. Haven't seen it enough?

     

    "!"

    There, now go kill 10 rodents you brainless dummy. Lord knows you wouldn't be able to do it without me jamming more of "!" these down your throat.

     

    I hate you guys... Oh so much..

     

  • ThorkuneThorkune Member UncommonPosts: 1,969
    That's why I'm one of the few that preferred NGE SWG over pre-NGE. The skills grind was insane in pre-NGE. I absolutely hate grinding in any game.
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