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[Dev Journal] General: Have MMOs Become Too Easy?

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  • RemianenRemianen Member UncommonPosts: 38
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    MMOS were never tough or difficult. They were just too time consuming. Unless people equate time sinks with challenge?

    Time sinks are challenge. They're individual player challenge. I don't care how good you are at a game, there is no amount of skill you can develop that overcomes the screaming wife or neglected baby (or neglected wife and screaming baby, take your pick). I remember way back when in EverQuest, the people who got their significant others to play, got to play more AND advanced faster than the folks who had to deal with "wife aggro". Also, time sinks, as you call them, can be a consequence of challenge. Again, hearkening back to EQ, breaking into the Plane of Fear. It was challenging (at least at one time) and the consequence of failure was possible personal ruin (all your gear, stuck in the plane on a corpse that you can't get). Death penalties are time sinks? Sure, maybe for those people who died a lot. But for those people who only died in the best possible situation (on raids), there was no time sink. Rez up and keep plowing.

    Mark, the tools you describe seem to require inordinate amounts of those oh so rare commodities: time and budget. Your game isn't not meant for a wide audience so using it as some point of comparison is flawed. When you were making WoW, you said in your previous article that you were shooting for a wide audience. A game that operates the way you suggest will not be widely accessible for that very reason. The wide audience knows WoW's way of doing things and, by and large, they're not open to changing. As successful as Guild Wars 2 is, I'm almost positive that Mike Morhaime is not stockpiling Tums because GW2 is scaring him. GW2 is widely successful among the gamer set but Joe Casual probably has no idea it even exists (or he's poo-pooing it because it doesn't have Blizzard's name on it).

    One reason people were so disappointed in The Old Republic is because Bioware had the time and budget (or the budget to make up for time) to really be innovative and they spent their money in an area whose novelty wears off quickly. "Wow, this is immersive" *spacebar spacebar spacebar* Heck, A Tale in the Desert has some innovative systems (especially at its core) but how many people have even heard of it? The same can be said for Horizo...err, Istaria. If a tree falls in the forest....yes it makes a sound but no one hears it.

    I like your ideas but I think you'd need a budget the size of the Pentagon's to pull it off on the scale necessary to revolutionize and revitalize the genre.

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,359
    Originally posted by DoubleDragon
    Originally posted by Xarko
    Not necessarily easy, but they became SIMPLE.

    Exactly this. Less brains, more grind.

    No - but many things can be done at once now, especially with programming. The power of the computers we use compared to what they were 5-10 yrs ago is astronomical. I don't think anyone has taken this into account. 


  • kniltsolkniltsol Member Posts: 10
    of course they have become too easy...though some of us all it WoWification instead ;)
  • furbansfurbans Member UncommonPosts: 968

    This whole article reeks of a marketing tactic.  So a guy trashes an MMO that he worked on in order to promote his new mmo that is being developed and is in the final stages.  That's just mind boggling image.   Lay ya odds that even his MMO will be too easy by many here. 

    MMOs tend to have challenging approaches and really every MMO will be EZ once people figure out tactics.  Take away strategy sites and databases like WoWhead and the difficulty will skyrocket.  It's not the developer's fault that people piggyback on others work that makes it faceroll content.  There are difficulty levels though.

    Anyways difficulty is a pandora's box issue.  Make it where any reasonable competent player can accomplish the task and people will rage that it's too easy, make it difficulty where it takes months to accomplish the task and people will rage that it was too hard and the forums are flooding with demands of nerfing said task.  Also not everyone is on the same leveling field and people here are you serious to obsessed gamers who represent the minority that usually plow through content.

  • shadeviceshadevice Member CommonPosts: 68

    This has been a relevant topic for many years now. surprised its just now being addressed 07/2013 .

    Devs need to learn that making a game challenging keeps people entertained longer than ez mode. Even casual babies get bored if stuff is 2 ez. 

    Theres a fine line between entertainingly challenging and time sinkingly boring though. 

    Good luck finding that happy medium. 

  • UnderdogSMOUnderdogSMO Member Posts: 41
    The problem with dark fall is its nothing But PVP.  not that PVP is bad but haveing a game with deep inpact and a NPC driven narative as well as something like world PVP would be Awsome.  Star Citizen is trying to do this 
  • DarkBykeDarkByke Member UncommonPosts: 6
    Enjoying the journey so far.  Games are always better with friends.  Social games ARE the content. 
  • aylwynnaylwynn Member Posts: 94

    MMORPGs become to simple and too easy. The developers predefine a way how I have to play so I don't have to carry about it. Jesus, give me back my challange in MMORPGs ... Even if I just play 2 hrs a day. GuildWars 2 is the perfect example of how MMORPGs shouldn't work in my opinion.

     

    Complexity in games are fun and let me play the game for several years ... I actually don't feel like beeing bound by GuildWars 2 or even feeling the need to stay in this game because every - good - damn - content feels like the same without complexity. I want those times back where I was bound to a game for 5 years ... Challange, complexity plus community combined makes an MMORPG worth to play for a long time.

  • KlipcheKlipche Member UncommonPosts: 2

    Yes I miss the days of EQ when levels were achived at such a slow pace.  You had hell levels and you went out of your way to camp gear at all levels because they had value for so long. 

    Another great game that is in my top 5 that I still play that gets no love and should is A Tale in the Desert. www.attid.com    This game is DEEP and HARD.  Love it.

  • QestEQQestEQ Member Posts: 1

    Bzzt! Wrong answer!

     

    You want the right answer? Look at Vanguard: Saga of Heroes.

     

    Any 8-year old WoW refugee could succeed in Vanguard; however, a highly-skilled player in minimal gear could run rings around an average-skill player 5 levels higher and with far better gear! This was due to the complex combat system that offered more abilities than could be used, and also synergies with other classes.

     

    Vanguard offered a VAST world. This allowed people making new characters to experience a vastly different world than they had the first time for good replayability. It was also RP-appropriate that players of the same race started out grouping together because other races were usually too far away.

     

    To me, Vanguard was the best MMO ever...it just got released before it was ready, and remains practically dead from neglect by SOE.

     

    /mourn

     

    The big problem with too much "dynamic," instanced content is that you lose what EQ has, the sense that you're sharing the world with everyone else. That sense of community is easily lost in this manner, but is the main reason EQ is still alive and kicking.

     

    I remember City of Heroes offered a lot of dynamic content, but they ruined it for me when they patched in a nerf that prevented players from fighting any level enemies. My friends and I enjoyed the challenge of fighting much, much, much higher-level enemies, but apparently it was "too much XP" and they put a complete stop to it. We didn't give a damn about the XP. An XP nerf instead would have been welcomed as we had no desire to level too quickly. We were just having fun in our way.

     

    Anyway, I'm an odd duck that likes to be challenged, surprised, and scared. I'm aware I'm in a tiny minority and most people want EZ-mode, so that's why I put up Vanguard's system of easy to play, nigh impossible to perfect on a pedestal.

  • PandaEQNPandaEQN Member Posts: 3

    So, you're the person to blame for the crappiness of MMOs for the past decade, huh? Address, please.

  • Oropher1Oropher1 Member Posts: 1

    Maybe I will be kicked out. US marketing culture might be the cause of that kind of games of low quality... They want money, that's all. You had the same issue in the 50's when excellent films maker's has been kicked out: Hollywood blacklist....

    US games could be excellent, why don't you wake up?? The world is suffering of your poor culture.

  • runefarrunefar Member Posts: 1
    I think people think they we have forgotten the idea of a journey in wow but I as a vanilla player can tell you I saw people rush to max content because they only cared about the same thing people care about now raids and dungeons.This was always be a problem and will likely still be in many mmos. I care about the journey and the world but many people never did and never will.
  • obocoboc Member UncommonPosts: 189
    WildStar Vet Dungeons and WildStar raids. The only game in the last 10 years that has truly given me that OMG I did it feeling. 1-1000 so far. Greedy greedy greedy = crap games. Don't think we'll ever get back to them days 100% . 
  • damond5031damond5031 Member UncommonPosts: 445
    I cannot really think of an MMO that wasn't easy. I think sometimes tedium and grind get mistaken for challenge. Most of the kids that started out in the EQ days are adults now, if we aren't on welfare or retired we don't have time to spend hours on corpse runs or raid five nights a week. I think success in the MMO space for a player should rely on the mind more and less on the time spent.
  • FingzFingz Member UncommonPosts: 139

    Depends on the player.  I find most MMOs too easy and I get bored but that doesn't mean everyone does.  There was one of the super hero MMOs that had a difficulty slider, I wonder why most MMOs don't have difficulty sliders.

     

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