I see a couple (long) chains that I would like to respond too. I am not going to quote all of this, as it is quite long. I am going to paraphase a bit, so I apologize if something is not exactly as said, but it should help to clarify what I understood it to mean:
2. Freedom to explore. No compulsion to follow some breadcrumb trail or to be a slave to a quest hub.
I see comments about this, tied to horizontal progression. I am not sure how (or why) this would relate. In original EQ (I cant speak for the current state with all expansions) there were very few locations that were level locked. I can remember exploring locations where the mobs were 20 or 30 levels higher. Vertical (level based) progression was not much of a hinderance to exploration. As such, a change to horizontal progression doesnt enhance this, or really have much of an effect.
3. Interdependency with other players. Sure, you could go it alone, but it was safer in groups, as it should be.
Again, I am seeing horizontal progession brougth up here. I am seeing this as LOWERING (or outright removing) interdependancy requirements. They have made it clear that they are trying to remove the trinity by allowing a more hybrid style of play. They have also indicated that encounters scale by the number of players, again removing the benefits of interdependancy.
I, personally, feel that they are also tuning encounters to be less difficult (from what I have seen). That is my personal opinion, but it would also remove the need for interdependancy.
4. Downtime. This is where folks who grouped would start to talk and form bonds of camaraderie.
This is a hard one for people to understand. It is important that there be 'downtime' where players can chat freely (not using keyboard for other things) to help foster stronger community bonds. I am not seeing any indication of this (either way) with what they have shown us. However, most modern games try to eliminate downtime, and have suffered in this area because of this.
I do think that there are a lot of cool changes for EQN, but it is often the 'mix' of elements that truly make a game memorable. I am not overly thrilled at what I am seeing, but I will reserve judgement until I see the game, as I do appreciate many of the individual elements, even if the game turns out not to be for me.
The difficulty of the game is what made EQ EQ. No in-game map, no quest waypoint, and mobs/dungeons we're incredibly difficult. Their slogan of You're in our world now actually applied to this game because it felt like you we're in another world. For it's time it did an amazing job of capturing that feeling and to this day no other game has beaten EQ 1 at that. Vanguard captured quite a few of those elements but you can't play it anymore.
The most recent information on this states that capping out "Tier 5" takes about a week or so (faster if you're hardcore / experienced in the game and knock it out with focus).
What is the source for the information? I sure hope they don't do that as It would be a negative to gain 5 tiers of gear for a single class in a week or so.
Getting the tiers themselves for an unlocked class will be very fast as stated by Dave G. It's hard to quantify how long it will take exactly, because it would depend on how many hours that player puts in and what they're doing during those hours of playtime.
The general word right now is average player (not a ultra casual once a week player and not a no-life 15 hours a day hardcore) will only take a couple days to unlock a tier or two. A hardcore gamer who puts in 8 - 12 hours a day grinding it out could probably get a tier 5 in just a few sittings. This sounds "fast" but remember this isn't the same as a standard vertical grinder. Tiers are not meant to be power levels, just a wider range of adaptability / customization. And collecting classes is going to be a major part of the game, each which will need gear and their own tier grind. So even if it only takes 5 days for a core gamer to get to tier 5 and 5 days to get all the gear they want for that class (hypothetical), they would still have maybe 10 or 20 other classes to do the same to, coming up to 100 - 200 days worth of playing to get it all done as a hardcore gamer.
Tier gear is not better, it's different/more specific to what it affects. Many people who are serious into character building will have a wide range of gear on their character from different tiers. A tier 5 piece of gear might or might not be inferior to your druid's build than a tier 3 piece you found a few weeks ago.
No idea on how hard gear will be to get, but it will probably be faster than getting gear in vertical stat grinders because all gear is useful in some way or another and the devs are expecting people to acquire dozens of different sets of gear and for them to be constantly revising their build with new gear they find. Each class would want it's own gear and every class can be made into multiple different builds with multiclassing skills and gear combos.
So you're not striving to get 15 or so of the best items in the game for you 1 class. But possibly hundreds of pieces of gear for your array of classes and builds.
In the end, it sounds "fast" for players to cap out their class to tier 5 in just a handful of days or less. But within the scope of the game and everything else they're going to want to do for that character, this isn't really "that fast" and it has the side effect of allowing almost the entire game population to be capable of grouping and adventuring with each other very quickly, which is going to go a long way for them to give us the free-roaming adventure experience they're advertising.
Seriously, with my hypothetical saying just a few days to cap out and gear up, that makes required play time of 3 - 6 months to cap out a character with gear and unlocks for all their classes.
That's original-EQ levels of time required to capping out a character and a stark contrast to games like ESO where I had the best gear in the game and a capped out V10 character before the first month's subscription expired lol.
The chances of EQN following suit are already long gone.Im banking on a modern day MMO with a GW2 type of difficulty - aka easy mode.
Regarding Everquest, it was a world . It was a world you could actually live in,be absorbed in,with places that actually felt dangerous.Where you could actually feel the vulnerability of your character in a dangerous place.
Doing things took time,traveling,questing,exploring,battles. etc it was a challenge - not some push over,jump through the hoop like a good doggy type of task.
Your character was never a hero.No matter how good your gear was, a nice slice of humble pie was ready to be served around the corner.
When i started playing EQ, the game was an adventure. Not a mission to get to the top tier as fast as possible, nor was it about how fast you could take down a group of mobs so you can get to the next group and collect their quest rewards so you can move to the next questing area, like so many MMO's today.
The game took time. it wasn't this sped up stuff we have today, catering to the 'instant gratification' crowd.Testament of Veneer quest comes to mind, then the Epics, now those were truly epic back in the day. When you looted a Blackened iron Bastard Sword, it meant something and would also fetch a nice price in the EC tunnel. Much like SWG after it, the game was a living virtual world. People who crafted were known, by name, because it took a long time to raise crafting skills and took some serious dedication.
Traveling took time, and getting somewhere without a friendly druid or wizard could take an entire play session, but those were also the most memorable play sessions. Everyone who played prior to Luclin knows at least a few stories of Islands and boats, many are downright hilarious.
Pulling was an art form. And, you could actually single pull. When you approached a group of mobs, you had to strategically approach how to split the camp and drag a lone orc back to camp. Not like today's games, where you solo jump into a group of giants, do a quick whirl and they all fall down. Hill Giants were tough, but also a great source of cash, up to 34pp per kill.
I know my opinion is kind of filtered through my rosy lenses, but hey, I had a blast.
The combat system was great but a bit broken at the same time in the later expansions. Trinity was and always will be my favorite. The factions with the /con system so you could always tell how creatures or npc's felt about you. The various spells and gear and customizable UI. The broken part was the mana regen. Sitting around once in a while would be fine but the amount of time spent regaining mana was the only big negative I saw.
Was it the artstyle?
Art style was very well done in it's time and over the years redone fairly well. There was greatly different color and styles in most zones and characters and creatures were done well. The spell animations and other things were great for the time as well.
Was it the vast world?
This was very important for immersion for me. A large and dangerous world with starting areas spread out over continents with challenges both large and small everywhere. Great dungeons that were mostly not instanced with trains that added to the dangers.
The need for friends?
This ties in nicely with the vastness of the world. You would be able to find people around your level and group up for hours camping a dungeon or a spawn spot. This was quite rewarding in it's own right as often times, we would add to friends list and group up again to continue sometimes forming guilds or merging guilds.
EverQuest had more than a few features to set it apart even today. While it's obvious that EQN has many more "new" features what at its core does it need to capture the feeling of its predecessors? Is it possible to create an experience both vets of the original franchise and new players to the genre can enjoy along with those all along the spectrum?
It is a tricky question to be quite honest. There has to be a deep meta game going for vets that compels them on several levels or it will not take root. For the new generation I believe flashy combat mechanics, easily approachable interface that is customizable, and quality story along with some dynamic AI will keep them hooked.
What made EverQuest, EverQuest?
Everquest had amazing dungeon design. You know some people sat down and really thought out these amazing 3D labyrinths. The perfect pacing within each dungeon and how one small mistake could mean paying a big price for it. The named spawns and specific drops from them that became legend. The raid encounters that took a great deal of coordination and prep to succeed.
All the various class types and home cities complete with lore and npc personalities that were often unique and special to encounter.
The expansions that always seemed to crank up the challenge and excitement and breath even more life into the game.
The day night cycle and changes that occur that often effect whole zones.
My comments in green. I could continue on about EQ, but really I am hoping EQ Next will recapture 2/3 of the presence felt by EQ. I spent many many years playing it and would very much enjoy a new stylized flavoring of my old stomping grounds. Obviously they will be drastically different, but my hope is I will be able to connect the lore and portions of the game to some distant memories of perhaps Quenos, South Karana, Oasis of Mar, Butcherblock. These could be transformed but still have some remnant for old Vets to pick up on and feel at home.
People forget it was also the Granddaddy of 3D MMOG. It was a new concept and people made a life in EQ. All games now are just Games and will ever be until some new genre is invented and people will make lives in that game.
MMOG are no longer a life style as they are just games, because well this genre has been going for 15 years+ now and we are all vets of many many MMOG.
We the players made EQ what it was and now they are all games simple as that. You can't get pre-vet life style back until a new genre or idea is invented and you throw yourself into it as we all did in original EQ.
If you ask people who started their first MMO in WoW when it launched they would have the exact same response as the people who's first MMOG was EQ.
This will also apply to people who's first MMO will be Landmark, or EQN.
Originally posted by Gallus85The most recent information on this states that capping out "Tier 5" takes about a week or so (faster if you're hardcore / experienced in the game and knock it out with focus).
What is the source for the information? I sure hope they don't do that as It would be a negative to gain 5 tiers of gear for a single class in a week or so.
Getting the tiers themselves for an unlocked class will be very fast as stated by Dave G. It's hard to quantify how long it will take exactly, because it would depend on how many hours that player puts in and what they're doing during those hours of playtime.The general word right now is average player (not a ultra casual once a week player and not a no-life 15 hours a day hardcore) will only take a couple days to unlock a tier or two. A hardcore gamer who puts in 8 - 12 hours a day grinding it out could probably get a tier 5 in just a few sittings. This sounds "fast" but remember this isn't the same as a standard vertical grinder. Tiers are not meant to be power levels, just a wider range of adaptability / customization. And collecting classes is going to be a major part of the game, each which will need gear and their own tier grind. So even if it only takes 5 days for a core gamer to get to tier 5 and 5 days to get all the gear they want for that class (hypothetical), they would still have maybe 10 or 20 other classes to do the same to, coming up to 100 - 200 days worth of playing to get it all done as a hardcore gamer.Tier gear is not better, it's different/more specific to what it affects. Many people who are serious into character building will have a wide range of gear on their character from different tiers. A tier 5 piece of gear might or might not be inferior to your druid's build than a tier 3 piece you found a few weeks ago.No idea on how hard gear will be to get, but it will probably be faster than getting gear in vertical stat grinders because all gear is useful in some way or another and the devs are expecting people to acquire dozens of different sets of gear and for them to be constantly revising their build with new gear they find. Each class would want it's own gear and every class can be made into multiple different builds with multiclassing skills and gear combos.So you're not striving to get 15 or so of the best items in the game for you 1 class. But possibly hundreds of pieces of gear for your array of classes and builds.In the end, it sounds "fast" for players to cap out their class to tier 5 in just a handful of days or less. But within the scope of the game and everything else they're going to want to do for that character, this isn't really "that fast" and it has the side effect of allowing almost the entire game population to be capable of grouping and adventuring with each other very quickly, which is going to go a long way for them to give us the free-roaming adventure experience they're advertising.Seriously, with my hypothetical saying just a few days to cap out and gear up, that makes required play time of 3 - 6 months to cap out a character with gear and unlocks for all their classes.That's original-EQ levels of time required to capping out a character and a stark contrast to games like ESO where I had the best gear in the game and a capped out V10 character before the first month's subscription expired lol.
I finally found what I was looking for. I'll preface this by saying this is "old" information and probably has already changed internally. However, unless I see concrete evidence (links, etc.) I'll figure this is the best guess
"On tiers: While trying to get a handle on the new concepts of EverQuest Next, some folks latched onto the term tiers as a substitute for levels. Georgeson, however, explained that the two are not just interchangeable terms for the same idea. Tier doesn't equate to power level -- it means capability. Higher tiers mean that players have a handle on how the game is played, from how to do combat to how to manipulate their skills to make various builds. It also means that they have a more robust selection of skills, giving them more flexibility to deal with situations. Unlocking tiers is a matter of demonstrating you know what's going on in the game. And moving up tiers is not going to be a laborious process: Georgeson stated, "Unlocking them is a matter of days and weeks, not years."
Eight? Probably not and I figure T5 will be max much like Landmark is now but will expand for EQN post launch.
Days and weeks to gain a tier sounds a lot more stable. In averaging a week per tier that's 5 weeks per class and 200 weeks for all of them. Factoring in specific gear and actually earning the other classes would push this out, maybe. I agree with most of your hypotheticals other than that capping a class within a week was a good thing. I understand mixing and matching secondary abilities is part of the meta for EQN but the time it takes to reach "max tier" should give the player enough time to play the class to know what they want to change and keep. I don't think a week is long enough for that.
When I started EQ as a total noob at launch, my home was the Commonlands cave along hundreds of other players. There, I made friends who I am still friends with in RL 15 years later. Zoning into lavastorm or going to highkeep felt like a true adventure. That's something I haven't experienced in any other MMO. Dying in N Karana and starting naked back in Freeport made me feel like nothing else in life mattered besides getting my body and items back. I would have to assemble my friends and make the trek back to N Karana which sometimes took days. The Oasis docks and people training spectres/sand giants was FUN!
I really don't know where I'm going, but like sharing my nostalgia. If EQNext can somehow pull off that sense of community, etc. I'm in.
Although EQN and EQ seem to share the same amount of active abilities, special weapon/armor abilities as well, the pace and feel of combat will be much different. That and the art style are probably the two differentiating factors between them to be honest, that we have info on.
I'd does seem like there is still a need to know your class/role and be a good player. With this system the player skill aspect may be even higher. That will depend on the kind and amount of difficult content there is in Next, which I hope there is a lot.
I agree with you 100%, a sense of community needs to be fostered if Next hopes to have that same magic. They have mentioned a few ways, such as a group of players with nature influence being needed to turn a tainted area back to nature but I want to know more. They also hit on trade as social since the worlds resources aren't always going to be static. My want is of adequate group content. If I can group everytime I log in and not run out of things to do I'll be very happy.
It was new. Nothing like it really existed. People left the game in droves after PoP for a reason, and it wasn't WoW. Too many people remember their first experience with the game, and forgot why they ended up leaving. If it was so awesome go back. The game is terrible today.
To answer the question and all this is pretty much Pre-PoP
Although EQN and EQ seem to share the same amount of active abilities, special weapon/armor abilities as well, the pace and feel of combat will be much different. That and the art style are probably the two differentiating factors between them to be honest, that we have info on.
I'd does seem like there is still a need to know your class/role and be a good player. With this system the player skill aspect may be even higher. That will depend on the kind and amount of difficult content there is in Next, which I hope there is a lot.
It's been made as a MOBA/Console hybrid with some MMO features, some building features, and a shiny new AI model. The Cartoon looks are a wedge for some people, they action combat another (strobes when swords are swung).
The description for the game from the Devs are meant to make you think that this game will be the game you are looking for. It will do everything for everyone. If you want to play for years you can do that. If you want to play for 10 min and move off happy like Nariusseldon you can do that too. The reality will certainly not hold up to that description.
The Role/Class/Skill attributes you refer to will be targeted at the mean, not the fringes, so don't expect anything outside of the range of games you have played recently. Roles don't matter because you can change them at will, which: a) removes any identity from the avatar (it's just a mode machine with classes mutable nearly on the fly), and they have said they don't want to you need any role therefore you don't need any specific role. b) That tells me that the whole role thing went down the toilet and what you actually have are just different graphics for the same effect.
Yep get ready for Disney's version of Guild Wars 3 combat. I wish it weren't so but it is. There will be more diversity in the spatula section of the grocery store than there will be in character playstyles and variations for action in EQNext. Unless you count being able to jump and warp around the map, which will be there in spades.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
From classes, quests and combat. EQN will not follow suit at all. SoE devs have already said they are not trying to make a new EQ for EQ fans, they hope to capture a new group or players with this new game. Everything I have read or watched about this game has shown it will be it own beast. Even the lore is its own.
Although EQN and EQ seem to share the same amount of active abilities, special weapon/armor abilities as well, the pace and feel of combat will be much different. That and the art style are probably the two differentiating factors between them to be honest, that we have info on.
I'd does seem like there is still a need to know your class/role and be a good player. With this system the player skill aspect may be even higher. That will depend on the kind and amount of difficult content there is in Next, which I hope there is a lot.
It's been made as a MOBA/Console hybrid with some MMO features, some building features, and a shiny new AI model. The Cartoon looks are a wedge for some people, they action combat another (strobes when swords are swung).
The description for the game from the Devs are meant to make you think that this game will be the game you are looking for. It will do everything for everyone. If you want to play for years you can do that. If you want to play for 10 min and move off happy like Nariusseldon you can do that too. The reality will certainly not hold up to that description.
The Role/Class/Skill attributes you refer to will be targeted at the mean, not the fringes, so don't expect anything outside of the range of games you have played recently. Roles don't matter because you can change them at will, which: a) removes any identity from the avatar (it's just a mode machine with classes mutable nearly on the fly), and they have said they don't want to you need any role therefore you don't need any specific role. b) That tells me that the whole role thing went down the toilet and what you actually have are just different graphics for the same effect.
Yep get ready for Disney's version of Guild Wars 3 combat. I wish it weren't so but it is. There will be more diversity in the spatula section of the grocery store than there will be in character playstyles and variations for action in EQNext. Unless you count being able to jump and warp around the map, which will be there in spades.
I'm sorry you have such a dreary outlook for Next. Your opinions are your own but you speak pretty authoritative ("the reality is", "don't expect", etc.) about how it's going to be. Are you playing it at the moment?
The GW2 comparison isn't really a comparison, unless at some point GW2 becomes reticle based or Next strictly tab target/area effect. The impact on feel of combat and how players can interact with the environment is just too different. Then you have the classes which have roles if the Cleric and Elementalist are any indication. Dave: "Crowd control is coming back in a big way." The fact you can switch between them doesn't change that since you can only play one at a time. I believe that is what they meant when you shouldn't need a certain class. If you need a healer you don't have to wait for one to come along, you can switch to a healer if you've unlocked one. That quote was centered around two people figuring out a strategy because they kept getting beat and the solution was to find a class/ability combo that would work and if that didn't work getting more people.
Some MMO features and some building features? What does this mean?
If you really wish it "weren't so" you should absorb all the info out there because it's contrary to what you wrote, other than the bits about art and combat style which are subjective.
Edit: With the description they've given on how the AI works it is possible to have both 10 minute play sessions or hours of play. That's the beauty of taking out static content and replacing it with various shades of strength. According to a SB tweet the AI video should be out this week or next, I can't recall.
Although EQN and EQ seem to share the same amount of active abilities, special weapon/armor abilities as well, the pace and feel of combat will be much different. That and the art style are probably the two differentiating factors between them to be honest, that we have info on.
I'd does seem like there is still a need to know your class/role and be a good player. With this system the player skill aspect may be even higher. That will depend on the kind and amount of difficult content there is in Next, which I hope there is a lot.
It's been made as a MOBA/Console hybrid with some MMO features, some building features, and a shiny new AI model. The Cartoon looks are a wedge for some people, they action combat another (strobes when swords are swung).
The description for the game from the Devs are meant to make you think that this game will be the game you are looking for. It will do everything for everyone. If you want to play for years you can do that. If you want to play for 10 min and move off happy like Nariusseldon you can do that too. The reality will certainly not hold up to that description.
The Role/Class/Skill attributes you refer to will be targeted at the mean, not the fringes, so don't expect anything outside of the range of games you have played recently. Roles don't matter because you can change them at will, which: a) removes any identity from the avatar (it's just a mode machine with classes mutable nearly on the fly), and they have said they don't want to you need any role therefore you don't need any specific role. b) That tells me that the whole role thing went down the toilet and what you actually have are just different graphics for the same effect.
Yep get ready for Disney's version of Guild Wars 3 combat. I wish it weren't so but it is. There will be more diversity in the spatula section of the grocery store than there will be in character playstyles and variations for action in EQNext. Unless you count being able to jump and warp around the map, which will be there in spades.
I'm sorry you have such a dreary outlook for Next. Your opinions are your own but you speak pretty authoritative ("the reality is", "don't expect", etc.) about how it's going to be. Are you playing it at the moment?
The GW2 comparison isn't really a comparison, unless at some point GW2 becomes reticle based or Next strictly tab target/area effect. The impact on feel of combat and how players can interact with the environment is just too different. Then you have the classes which have roles if the Cleric and Elementalist are any indication. Dave: "Crowd control is coming back in a big way." The fact you can switch between them doesn't change that since you can only play one at a time. I believe that is what they meant when you shouldn't need a certain class. If you need a healer you don't have to wait for one to come along, you can switch to a healer if you've unlocked one. That quote was centered around two people figuring out a strategy because they kept getting beat and the solution was to find a class/ability combo that would work and if that didn't work getting more people.
Some MMO features and some building features? What does this mean?
If you really wish it "weren't so" you should absorb all the info out there because it's contrary to what you wrote, other than the bits about art and combat style which are subjective.
Edit: With the description they've given on how the AI works it is possible to have both 10 minute play sessions or hours of play. That's the beauty of taking out static content and replacing it with various shades of strength. According to a SB tweet the AI video should be out this week or next, I can't recall.
Pre SoE Live 2013 the internet was a buzz with word of a new EQ MMO. This forum and many like it were flooded with posters. After they announced the direction of the game many fan forums died like this one. As much as his post is jaded, he is not far off from how many feel about this game. If I was not such a big fan of SoE products I would have already moved on from EQN. Action mouse locked combat does not tickle me in any way. I myself hope that SoE changes some of the direction of this game. Or that what else is there (voxels and storybricks) is so good I will over look shallow combat system they have picked. Right now the biggest thing to win in PvP is to hop like a bunny non stop. My fear is this will be GW2 all over again. Not that I think it was a bad game. It just was not the game I wanted at end cap. Most EQ fans are not happy.
Pre SoE Live 2013 the internet was a buzz with word of a new EQ MMO. This forum and many like it were flooded with posters. After they announced the direction of the game many fan forums died like this one. As much as his post is jaded, he is not far off from how many feel about this game. If I was not such a big fan of SoE products I would have already moved on from EQN. Action mouse locked combat does not tickle me in any way. I myself hope that SoE changes some of the direction of this game. Or that what else is there (voxels and storybricks) is so good I will over look shallow combat system they have picked. Right now the biggest thing to win in PvP is to hop like a bunny non stop. My fear is this will be GW2 all over again. Not that I think it was a bad game. It just was not the game I wanted at end cap. Most EQ fans are not happy.
Most fans EQ on this site, sure, but I'm not sure how we would accurately know the opinion of everyone that played EQ on how they would like this game. Yes, the combat system is different but I wouldn't call it shallow, not anymore than EQ anyway. Roughly same amount of skills the only difference being how you target. How effective each skill is also important (in EQ this was huge) but cannot be known for Next quite yet, though we can see there will be a lot of control. If they applied the same "weight" and importance to abilities as in EQ it would be even more challenging IMO. We'll have to see how they address that.
I'm with you on the hopping and gliding. That and some of the extreme parkor is the only unappealing thing for me so far. I like the animation adjustments like ledge grabbing and diving if over water but the bunny hopping would get annoying fast. I believe they have stated adjustments for that in the form of energy use.
I get some vets are unhappy at the direction of Next but to post /rimshot comments and unreasonable comparisons does not progress discussions.
I don't think EQN will ever be able to match the success of EQ. This is mainly due to the over saturation of the market. WOW both expanded and destroyed the market.
What made EQ great was it was the first MMO for a lot of us. We are/were a different breed of gamer. We didn't mind the time sucks that was factioning, epic quests, camping of that annoyingly rare spawn to drop that annoyingly rare piece (screw you Venril Sathir and Phinny!). We talked in voice chat, guild chat, and tells. We socialized. We stood in West Commons tunnel and sold stuff. We interacted with other players. We ran back and forth to zones (unless you had a pet Wizard or Druid). We had corpse recoveries, and some of them, epic (Dragon Necropolis, dragging 5 bodies at once with a wizard. Making use of Abscond, Wizard Epic clicky, and Improved Invis)
In short, it was a game that "made" us want to play. It was tougher, more engaging, and more fun. It was EverQuest EverCrack!
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
EverQuest had more than a few features to set it apart even today. While it's obvious that EQN has many more "new" features what at its core does it need to capture the feeling of its predecessors? Is it possible to create an experience both vets of the original franchise and new players to the genre can enjoy along with those all along the spectrum?
What made EverQuest, EverQuest?
none of the above... it was popular because it was the first and only 3d mmo out there.. people played the whole game for what it was and not the first 20 minutes then moaned on the forums how much it sucked.. that's why older games have nostalgia - we actually played through it.
EverQuest had more than a few features to set it apart even today. While it's obvious that EQN has many more "new" features what at its core does it need to capture the feeling of its predecessors? Is it possible to create an experience both vets of the original franchise and new players to the genre can enjoy along with those all along the spectrum?
What made EverQuest, EverQuest?
The people playing the game. They were social, didn't tolerate a$$hats, and respected the people behind the avatar.
I have to admit we'll probally never see another mmo like EQ, this day in age its mostly casuals that play that aren't willing to put in the time for the social levels needed for something like that. The most recent mmorpg where I would say had that social aspect of eq would have been final fantasy 11 before squarsoft dumbed it down to shit for the casuals to draw in more players. Yeah, it was a better move finacally, but it really ruined what was the last true mmorpg out there. Not to say FF11 was the best mmo it had its issues, but in recent memory its pretty hard to top the social skills needed to get stuff done in it. Stuff took time, most of the players were the patient type, but when we got the stuff we had planned done it was a great feeling of accomplishment that most of todays mmorpgs just don't have anymore. Mostly because you can do most of the game solo and never really need another player to progress. Bascally whats happening is they are moving away from the mmo/social aspects and making these "mmorpgs" more like a single player game for the most part.
I've tried to get into them many times, I just can't seem to get into them, because how these games are designed make for a bad single player experence. They just aren't fun, and humans almost always take the path of least resistance, which means a large portion of the playerbase doesn't like to group up due to it slowing them down. Yes I said slowing them down, when the game is setup to bascally be single player till level cap, grouping up for most of the content that doesn't require a group just seems to slow people down at times.
MMORPG's are in a sad sad place atm, and I don't see them pulling themselves out of it anytime soon. It makes me sad as someone who used to love the genre seeing them turn out like this. To this day I blame world of warcraft for this, because it wasn't till WoW was released that mmorpgs started to get how they are today.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Comments
I see a couple (long) chains that I would like to respond too. I am not going to quote all of this, as it is quite long. I am going to paraphase a bit, so I apologize if something is not exactly as said, but it should help to clarify what I understood it to mean:
I see comments about this, tied to horizontal progression. I am not sure how (or why) this would relate. In original EQ (I cant speak for the current state with all expansions) there were very few locations that were level locked. I can remember exploring locations where the mobs were 20 or 30 levels higher. Vertical (level based) progression was not much of a hinderance to exploration. As such, a change to horizontal progression doesnt enhance this, or really have much of an effect.
Again, I am seeing horizontal progession brougth up here. I am seeing this as LOWERING (or outright removing) interdependancy requirements. They have made it clear that they are trying to remove the trinity by allowing a more hybrid style of play. They have also indicated that encounters scale by the number of players, again removing the benefits of interdependancy.
I, personally, feel that they are also tuning encounters to be less difficult (from what I have seen). That is my personal opinion, but it would also remove the need for interdependancy.
This is a hard one for people to understand. It is important that there be 'downtime' where players can chat freely (not using keyboard for other things) to help foster stronger community bonds. I am not seeing any indication of this (either way) with what they have shown us. However, most modern games try to eliminate downtime, and have suffered in this area because of this.
I do think that there are a lot of cool changes for EQN, but it is often the 'mix' of elements that truly make a game memorable. I am not overly thrilled at what I am seeing, but I will reserve judgement until I see the game, as I do appreciate many of the individual elements, even if the game turns out not to be for me.
Getting the tiers themselves for an unlocked class will be very fast as stated by Dave G. It's hard to quantify how long it will take exactly, because it would depend on how many hours that player puts in and what they're doing during those hours of playtime.
The general word right now is average player (not a ultra casual once a week player and not a no-life 15 hours a day hardcore) will only take a couple days to unlock a tier or two. A hardcore gamer who puts in 8 - 12 hours a day grinding it out could probably get a tier 5 in just a few sittings. This sounds "fast" but remember this isn't the same as a standard vertical grinder. Tiers are not meant to be power levels, just a wider range of adaptability / customization. And collecting classes is going to be a major part of the game, each which will need gear and their own tier grind. So even if it only takes 5 days for a core gamer to get to tier 5 and 5 days to get all the gear they want for that class (hypothetical), they would still have maybe 10 or 20 other classes to do the same to, coming up to 100 - 200 days worth of playing to get it all done as a hardcore gamer.
Tier gear is not better, it's different/more specific to what it affects. Many people who are serious into character building will have a wide range of gear on their character from different tiers. A tier 5 piece of gear might or might not be inferior to your druid's build than a tier 3 piece you found a few weeks ago.
No idea on how hard gear will be to get, but it will probably be faster than getting gear in vertical stat grinders because all gear is useful in some way or another and the devs are expecting people to acquire dozens of different sets of gear and for them to be constantly revising their build with new gear they find. Each class would want it's own gear and every class can be made into multiple different builds with multiclassing skills and gear combos.
So you're not striving to get 15 or so of the best items in the game for you 1 class. But possibly hundreds of pieces of gear for your array of classes and builds.
In the end, it sounds "fast" for players to cap out their class to tier 5 in just a handful of days or less. But within the scope of the game and everything else they're going to want to do for that character, this isn't really "that fast" and it has the side effect of allowing almost the entire game population to be capable of grouping and adventuring with each other very quickly, which is going to go a long way for them to give us the free-roaming adventure experience they're advertising.
Seriously, with my hypothetical saying just a few days to cap out and gear up, that makes required play time of 3 - 6 months to cap out a character with gear and unlocks for all their classes.
That's original-EQ levels of time required to capping out a character and a stark contrast to games like ESO where I had the best gear in the game and a capped out V10 character before the first month's subscription expired lol.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
The chances of EQN following suit are already long gone.Im banking on a modern day MMO with a GW2 type of difficulty - aka easy mode.
Regarding Everquest, it was a world . It was a world you could actually live in,be absorbed in,with places that actually felt dangerous.Where you could actually feel the vulnerability of your character in a dangerous place.
Doing things took time,traveling,questing,exploring,battles. etc it was a challenge - not some push over,jump through the hoop like a good doggy type of task.
Your character was never a hero.No matter how good your gear was, a nice slice of humble pie was ready to be served around the corner.
...and then World of Warcraft happened
and the MMO world lived unhappily ever after.
The End
When i started playing EQ, the game was an adventure. Not a mission to get to the top tier as fast as possible, nor was it about how fast you could take down a group of mobs so you can get to the next group and collect their quest rewards so you can move to the next questing area, like so many MMO's today.
The game took time. it wasn't this sped up stuff we have today, catering to the 'instant gratification' crowd.Testament of Veneer quest comes to mind, then the Epics, now those were truly epic back in the day. When you looted a Blackened iron Bastard Sword, it meant something and would also fetch a nice price in the EC tunnel. Much like SWG after it, the game was a living virtual world. People who crafted were known, by name, because it took a long time to raise crafting skills and took some serious dedication.
Traveling took time, and getting somewhere without a friendly druid or wizard could take an entire play session, but those were also the most memorable play sessions. Everyone who played prior to Luclin knows at least a few stories of Islands and boats, many are downright hilarious.
Pulling was an art form. And, you could actually single pull. When you approached a group of mobs, you had to strategically approach how to split the camp and drag a lone orc back to camp. Not like today's games, where you solo jump into a group of giants, do a quick whirl and they all fall down. Hill Giants were tough, but also a great source of cash, up to 34pp per kill.
I know my opinion is kind of filtered through my rosy lenses, but hey, I had a blast.
My comments in green. I could continue on about EQ, but really I am hoping EQ Next will recapture 2/3 of the presence felt by EQ. I spent many many years playing it and would very much enjoy a new stylized flavoring of my old stomping grounds. Obviously they will be drastically different, but my hope is I will be able to connect the lore and portions of the game to some distant memories of perhaps Quenos, South Karana, Oasis of Mar, Butcherblock. These could be transformed but still have some remnant for old Vets to pick up on and feel at home.
People forget it was also the Granddaddy of 3D MMOG. It was a new concept and people made a life in EQ. All games now are just Games and will ever be until some new genre is invented and people will make lives in that game.
MMOG are no longer a life style as they are just games, because well this genre has been going for 15 years+ now and we are all vets of many many MMOG.
We the players made EQ what it was and now they are all games simple as that. You can't get pre-vet life style back until a new genre or idea is invented and you throw yourself into it as we all did in original EQ.
If you ask people who started their first MMO in WoW when it launched they would have the exact same response as the people who's first MMOG was EQ.
This will also apply to people who's first MMO will be Landmark, or EQN.
What made EQ was right place right time.
1: Cable, and DSL came out shortly after EQ launched as we played on 56k for a year or so until 1m cable launched a year later.
2: People were for the first time starting to use the net for entertainment at this time.
3: There wasn't anything like it.
4: First 3d world that could be explored both on PC and console.
It is easy to sum up why EQ exploded as it did.
RIGHT PLACE RIGHT TIME!!
I finally found what I was looking for. I'll preface this by saying this is "old" information and probably has already changed internally. However, unless I see concrete evidence (links, etc.) I'll figure this is the best guess
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/17/the-tattered-notebook-quips-quotes-and-eq-next-tidbits-from-s/
"On tiers: While trying to get a handle on the new concepts of EverQuest Next, some folks latched onto the term tiers as a substitute for levels. Georgeson, however, explained that the two are not just interchangeable terms for the same idea. Tier doesn't equate to power level -- it means capability. Higher tiers mean that players have a handle on how the game is played, from how to do combat to how to manipulate their skills to make various builds. It also means that they have a more robust selection of skills, giving them more flexibility to deal with situations. Unlocking tiers is a matter of demonstrating you know what's going on in the game. And moving up tiers is not going to be a laborious process: Georgeson stated, "Unlocking them is a matter of days and weeks, not years."
How many tiers?
http://youtu.be/mq4l3CiIM2g?t=4m27s
"tier four, during the middle of progression"
Eight? Probably not and I figure T5 will be max much like Landmark is now but will expand for EQN post launch.
Days and weeks to gain a tier sounds a lot more stable. In averaging a week per tier that's 5 weeks per class and 200 weeks for all of them. Factoring in specific gear and actually earning the other classes would push this out, maybe. I agree with most of your hypotheticals other than that capping a class within a week was a good thing. I understand mixing and matching secondary abilities is part of the meta for EQN but the time it takes to reach "max tier" should give the player enough time to play the class to know what they want to change and keep. I don't think a week is long enough for that.
When I started EQ as a total noob at launch, my home was the Commonlands cave along hundreds of other players. There, I made friends who I am still friends with in RL 15 years later. Zoning into lavastorm or going to highkeep felt like a true adventure. That's something I haven't experienced in any other MMO. Dying in N Karana and starting naked back in Freeport made me feel like nothing else in life mattered besides getting my body and items back. I would have to assemble my friends and make the trek back to N Karana which sometimes took days. The Oasis docks and people training spectres/sand giants was FUN!
I really don't know where I'm going, but like sharing my nostalgia. If EQNext can somehow pull off that sense of community, etc. I'm in.
Although EQN and EQ seem to share the same amount of active abilities, special weapon/armor abilities as well, the pace and feel of combat will be much different. That and the art style are probably the two differentiating factors between them to be honest, that we have info on.
I'd does seem like there is still a need to know your class/role and be a good player. With this system the player skill aspect may be even higher. That will depend on the kind and amount of difficult content there is in Next, which I hope there is a lot.
I agree with you 100%, a sense of community needs to be fostered if Next hopes to have that same magic. They have mentioned a few ways, such as a group of players with nature influence being needed to turn a tainted area back to nature but I want to know more. They also hit on trade as social since the worlds resources aren't always going to be static. My want is of adequate group content. If I can group everytime I log in and not run out of things to do I'll be very happy.
It was new. Nothing like it really existed. People left the game in droves after PoP for a reason, and it wasn't WoW. Too many people remember their first experience with the game, and forgot why they ended up leaving. If it was so awesome go back. The game is terrible today.
To answer the question and all this is pretty much Pre-PoP
1. Economy
2. Socializing/Status
3. Sense of Accomplishment
It's been made as a MOBA/Console hybrid with some MMO features, some building features, and a shiny new AI model. The Cartoon looks are a wedge for some people, they action combat another (strobes when swords are swung).
The description for the game from the Devs are meant to make you think that this game will be the game you are looking for. It will do everything for everyone. If you want to play for years you can do that. If you want to play for 10 min and move off happy like Nariusseldon you can do that too. The reality will certainly not hold up to that description.
The Role/Class/Skill attributes you refer to will be targeted at the mean, not the fringes, so don't expect anything outside of the range of games you have played recently. Roles don't matter because you can change them at will, which: a) removes any identity from the avatar (it's just a mode machine with classes mutable nearly on the fly), and they have said they don't want to you need any role therefore you don't need any specific role. b) That tells me that the whole role thing went down the toilet and what you actually have are just different graphics for the same effect.
Yep get ready for Disney's version of Guild Wars 3 combat. I wish it weren't so but it is. There will be more diversity in the spatula section of the grocery store than there will be in character playstyles and variations for action in EQNext. Unless you count being able to jump and warp around the map, which will be there in spades.
I'm sorry you have such a dreary outlook for Next. Your opinions are your own but you speak pretty authoritative ("the reality is", "don't expect", etc.) about how it's going to be. Are you playing it at the moment?
The GW2 comparison isn't really a comparison, unless at some point GW2 becomes reticle based or Next strictly tab target/area effect. The impact on feel of combat and how players can interact with the environment is just too different. Then you have the classes which have roles if the Cleric and Elementalist are any indication. Dave: "Crowd control is coming back in a big way." The fact you can switch between them doesn't change that since you can only play one at a time. I believe that is what they meant when you shouldn't need a certain class. If you need a healer you don't have to wait for one to come along, you can switch to a healer if you've unlocked one. That quote was centered around two people figuring out a strategy because they kept getting beat and the solution was to find a class/ability combo that would work and if that didn't work getting more people.
Some MMO features and some building features? What does this mean?
If you really wish it "weren't so" you should absorb all the info out there because it's contrary to what you wrote, other than the bits about art and combat style which are subjective.
Edit: With the description they've given on how the AI works it is possible to have both 10 minute play sessions or hours of play. That's the beauty of taking out static content and replacing it with various shades of strength. According to a SB tweet the AI video should be out this week or next, I can't recall.
Pre SoE Live 2013 the internet was a buzz with word of a new EQ MMO. This forum and many like it were flooded with posters. After they announced the direction of the game many fan forums died like this one. As much as his post is jaded, he is not far off from how many feel about this game. If I was not such a big fan of SoE products I would have already moved on from EQN. Action mouse locked combat does not tickle me in any way. I myself hope that SoE changes some of the direction of this game. Or that what else is there (voxels and storybricks) is so good I will over look shallow combat system they have picked. Right now the biggest thing to win in PvP is to hop like a bunny non stop. My fear is this will be GW2 all over again. Not that I think it was a bad game. It just was not the game I wanted at end cap. Most EQ fans are not happy.
I agree w you, I'm keeping my hopes up until public alpha
EQ2 fan sites
Most fans EQ on this site, sure, but I'm not sure how we would accurately know the opinion of everyone that played EQ on how they would like this game. Yes, the combat system is different but I wouldn't call it shallow, not anymore than EQ anyway. Roughly same amount of skills the only difference being how you target. How effective each skill is also important (in EQ this was huge) but cannot be known for Next quite yet, though we can see there will be a lot of control. If they applied the same "weight" and importance to abilities as in EQ it would be even more challenging IMO. We'll have to see how they address that.
I'm with you on the hopping and gliding. That and some of the extreme parkor is the only unappealing thing for me so far. I like the animation adjustments like ledge grabbing and diving if over water but the bunny hopping would get annoying fast. I believe they have stated adjustments for that in the form of energy use.
I get some vets are unhappy at the direction of Next but to post /rimshot comments and unreasonable comparisons does not progress discussions.
It's not going to. It's pretty clear that's exactly what SOE doesn't want to do.
I don't think EQN will ever be able to match the success of EQ. This is mainly due to the over saturation of the market. WOW both expanded and destroyed the market.
What made EQ great was it was the first MMO for a lot of us. We are/were a different breed of gamer. We didn't mind the time sucks that was factioning, epic quests, camping of that annoyingly rare spawn to drop that annoyingly rare piece (screw you Venril Sathir and Phinny!). We talked in voice chat, guild chat, and tells. We socialized. We stood in West Commons tunnel and sold stuff. We interacted with other players. We ran back and forth to zones (unless you had a pet Wizard or Druid). We had corpse recoveries, and some of them, epic (Dragon Necropolis, dragging 5 bodies at once with a wizard. Making use of Abscond, Wizard Epic clicky, and Improved Invis)
In short, it was a game that "made" us want to play. It was tougher, more engaging, and more fun. It was EverQuest EverCrack!
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
none of the above... it was popular because it was the first and only 3d mmo out there.. people played the whole game for what it was and not the first 20 minutes then moaned on the forums how much it sucked.. that's why older games have nostalgia - we actually played through it.
The people playing the game. They were social, didn't tolerate a$$hats, and respected the people behind the avatar.
I have to admit we'll probally never see another mmo like EQ, this day in age its mostly casuals that play that aren't willing to put in the time for the social levels needed for something like that. The most recent mmorpg where I would say had that social aspect of eq would have been final fantasy 11 before squarsoft dumbed it down to shit for the casuals to draw in more players. Yeah, it was a better move finacally, but it really ruined what was the last true mmorpg out there. Not to say FF11 was the best mmo it had its issues, but in recent memory its pretty hard to top the social skills needed to get stuff done in it. Stuff took time, most of the players were the patient type, but when we got the stuff we had planned done it was a great feeling of accomplishment that most of todays mmorpgs just don't have anymore. Mostly because you can do most of the game solo and never really need another player to progress. Bascally whats happening is they are moving away from the mmo/social aspects and making these "mmorpgs" more like a single player game for the most part.
I've tried to get into them many times, I just can't seem to get into them, because how these games are designed make for a bad single player experence. They just aren't fun, and humans almost always take the path of least resistance, which means a large portion of the playerbase doesn't like to group up due to it slowing them down. Yes I said slowing them down, when the game is setup to bascally be single player till level cap, grouping up for most of the content that doesn't require a group just seems to slow people down at times.
MMORPG's are in a sad sad place atm, and I don't see them pulling themselves out of it anytime soon. It makes me sad as someone who used to love the genre seeing them turn out like this. To this day I blame world of warcraft for this, because it wasn't till WoW was released that mmorpgs started to get how they are today.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!