You dont know what you are talking about. Let the devs who are MUCH smarter than you do their jobs. Noone cares what you have to say anyway. Youre wasting bandwith. This is a perfect storm of features.
But wouldn't those extra possible outcomes already have to be coded anyway ? In my limited coding experience, I assumed that there was always only 2 outcomes to a single question. 0 or 1, no or yes. While the result could contain variables on the execution, it still always result in 1 of 2 possible outcomes. (NPC attacks or he doesn't, NPC start building a church or he doesn't.)
Can you give me an exemple of how different that system will be working ?
Use the example given using Orcs.
Orcs desire wealth.
Some options might be: -
Travel around until they find some Gold mine and mine it out.
Find a well travelled road and waylay travellers to rob them.
Hire themselves out to the local Dark Elves.
Lets take the travellers example to further explore options: -
The Orcs want more wealth and so decide to call for re-inforcements to attack bigger groups.
The road is too dangerous for their group so they decide to move on to another place.
The Orcs realise that they get most gold from travelling priests and so only choose to attack priests.
The choices made are not either/or choices. They have various conflicting wants and needs and multiple avenues from which to pursue each of these needs.
Think of it like this...
Do I attack?
1 = yes
2 = no
Do I attack and if so what with?
1 = Yes with Dagger
2 = Yes with Bow
3 = No
Now add ways to escape and another weapon and see what happens.
1 = Yes with Dagger
2 = Yes with Bow
3 = Yes With spear
4 = No by hiding
5 = No by running
Now add in some knowledge that the NPC has about who they are thinking of attacking as they know that they are a mage and have good defences against close combat: -
1 = No. Do not attack with Dagger
2 = Yes. Attack with Bow
3 = No. Do not attack with spear
4 = No by hiding
5 = No by running
What if the NPC is too close to attack using the bow?
Or what if it was a fighter not a Mage?
Or what if the Orc was better at close combat?
Each layer of options provides another set of potential outcomes. So add in several desires, several ways to fulfil those desires, several personality traits, several bits of knowledge about the land, races or anything else and what you have is a series of decisions weighted by who the NPC is, what they are trying to achieve, what they have to do to achieve their desires, what resources they have available to achieve them...
Now some might say "but that means things are totally random" but they are not because each level of the process will be weighted based on the 'IQ' of the NPC and the process is weighted for the NPC to achieve it's goals the best they can in any given circumstance.
If you saw early storybricks video's you can see how the layers are constructed and now with the latest video's you can see how it fits together. And now that they seem to be able to procedurally generate NPC's and even entire races with variations and that they will interact with the world using their tagging system you can hopefully see how it all fits together.
But like I said, only 2 possible outcome for each decision. The orc will attack or he won't attack. The execution of the attack could be played differently but that is only part of a combat script. Many variable could alter what weapon or skill he will use.
Just because it is not random, doesn't mean the end result won't be exactly the same. Why make it so complicated, if in the end you get the same result. Just make it totally random and tell everyone that there is a reason for every action taken by each npc, would save a year of coding.
Give me an example of what a 3rd outcome is then.
If the NPC also had the option to try and talk his way out of the fight would that still be only 2 options according to your logic of fight or don't fight. So please provide a 3rd option as you either are confused or have me confused.
The point of the example was to show that in a simple case of fight or don't fight there are many layers that affect how the decision process reached a conclusion not that the AI suddenly finds a miraculous 3rd choice.
Using your logic you could equate the entire process on the worlds economy down to "the guy either sells it or doesn't" and totally ignore all the factors that affect the choice that include small things like the mood of the guy selling something on the day to how the geo-political stability of the world is shaping that day's fortune 500.
Or another way.
The final choice I made here was to either post or not post. What I wrote, what your reply was and even if I wanted to reply at all got me to the point of posting. So are all the factors that went into my choice to post a reply irrelevant or not? If you think they are and the important part is simply did I post and not the content and reason behind it then I guess your logic wins. But I don't think it is sound logic or even reasonable logic at all. And certainly doesn't make me believe you understand how the storybricks system works.
Well like I said earlier I don't think there is a third choice. It's not freewill AI it's coded choices, Attack or don't attack. After that if don't attack, talk or don't talk could be an option. But it all comes down to why bother with making a complex logic behind all the decision if in the end, the result, is the same and you have no way of knowing what triggered which actions.
If it was true AI, yes there could be a coherant system of like/dislike and it could give something truely amazing. But that's not what we will have. It's all 0 or 1.
My question is what will be different from the player perspective and is it worth the trouble of setting up such a system.
There is an orc merchant in town, you want him to love you(raise faction) so you get better price. If they give no clue as to what that orc like, you will just go out doing random thing till he loves you and still you won't know why he does. Or, if they make him give you clues while talking to him, then it just becomes a normal quest to raise faction.
The system does have great potential to create a big world full of interaction, but in the end the why's is totally lost on the player, thus making it irrelevent.
Your reasoning behind you posting or not is irrelevent to me. The only thing that matter is the fact that you did post a reply, it could be because you felt I was being a retard and needed to adress it, it could be because you want to educate me, it could be because you are totally bored and don't have anything to do. In the end, on my side, all I see is your answer. The trigger that made you post are not known to me, so yes they are irrelevent to this conversation.
Originally posted by reeereee Whenever people start talking about how innovative a game nowhere near release is I immediately flashback to the gw2 hype train.
What the hell is your point??
Everyone who thinks independently, Join the Hype Train!! Choo Choo
Okay we'll all just sit back and let the devs do there jobs because this like every MMO before it in the last 10 years "will change everything". Apparently some people haven't learned anything from the past. I'm still waiting for someone to re-invent the core gameplay of an MMO and I can assure you this is not it. I they were it would be readily apparent by now.
Now the thing is.. A significant change and difference would be that a class such as "Shaman" can only be learned from an NPC after Halas is finished, and only after you earned faction.. Now here a community can semi-effect the game world, but in such a way it prohibits other players from THEIR choices.. Will SOE allow that? Unless the community can make permanent changes it's then all smoke and mirrors cosmetic..
Another example I gave in another thread was this.. Can the community effect a "real" difference in the world such as promoting a leader of a city such as Freeport to be tribal or religious.. If the community choose tribal, then learning to become a Shaman is possible, but if the community endorses a religious city then one can become a Cleric.. BUT you can NOT be both.. Now that is REAL difference.. However if you are a character wanting to become a Shaman, but the community on your server didn't endorse or follow that path, you are screwed.. Will SOE allow that? Cause if they don't, then as I said, there really isn't any meaningful differences between servers.. [....]
It doesn't have to be so onedimensional. In your examples, SOE should be clever enough to implement some form of fallback mechanisms for really important stuff. As developer you can allow that an important NPC won't spawn because of certain circumstances if there are multiple ways to the same goal. It's all a matter of clever implementation. And now it's up to the playerbase to find all those possibilities and make them happen. It's very unlikely that all ways will be blocked. And even then the developer could implement things like: no matter what you do, it results in a certain event. But you can't know where, how and when.
There are almost unlimited possibilities to play around with that technique. With enough effort, every server could be different and nontheless deliver at least the core features. Maybe in other places, sooner or later, with other factions involved. And so on.
You could argue that the choice doesn't matter then. But not all things are as critical as a class trainer. And these are the situations where choices can be made really limitless. You can give the players one chance to see a certain event. And if it's gone, it's gone. No real harm apart from work that is wasted on this specific server.
I agree that it's uncertain if SOE will actually make all this happen. It would unbelievably hard work and very expensive to tap the full potential of Storybricks. But let's just hope for the best
They Did Reinvent it!! ITs right before you!! There are no hitpoints its literally and FPS with medieval armor tied into it, AND ITS AN MMO!!!!!!! A full flegded MMO. And you can customize armor and health and heroic movements and energy Like an MMO!! And you can Multi-class and its easy to learn. Whatever bar your jealous mind sets we will surpass it, because its been done and there is evidence of it in the internet. Even Sony says this will turn the mmo genre upside down and i just cant stop...
Well like I said earlier I don't think there is a third choice. It's not freewill AI it's coded choices, Attack or don't attack. After that if don't attack, talk or don't talk could be an option. But it all comes down to why bother with making a complex logic behind all the decision if in the end, the result, is the same and you have no way of knowing what triggered which actions.
If it was true AI, yes there could be a coherant system of like/dislike and it could give something truely amazing. But that's not what we will have. It's all 0 or 1.
My question is what will be different from the player perspective and is it worth the trouble of setting up such a system.
There is an orc merchant in town, you want him to love you(raise faction) so you get better price. If they give no clue as to what that orc like, you will just go out doing random thing till he loves you and still you won't know why he does. Or, if they make him give you clues while talking to him, then it just becomes a normal quest to raise faction.
The system does have great potential to create a big world full of interaction, but in the end the why's is totally lost on the player, thus making it irrelevent.
Your reasoning behind you posting or not is irrelevent to me. The only thing that matter is the fact that you did post a reply, it could be because you felt I was being a retard and needed to adress it, it could be because you want to educate me, it could be because you are totally bored and don't have anything to do. In the end, on my side, all I see is your answer. The trigger that made you post are not known to me, so yes they are irrelevent to this conversation.
Irrelevant to you. Not to people that want to have an improved gameplay experience and understand how Storybricks is providing it.
Using your logic is the equivalent of saying "gonna hit max level anyway, why bother levelling". YOU have the wrong hobby I would suggest!
Well like I said earlier I don't think there is a third choice. It's not freewill AI it's coded choices, Attack or don't attack. After that if don't attack, talk or don't talk could be an option. But it all comes down to why bother with making a complex logic behind all the decision if in the end, the result, is the same and you have no way of knowing what triggered which actions.
If it was true AI, yes there could be a coherant system of like/dislike and it could give something truely amazing. But that's not what we will have. It's all 0 or 1.
My question is what will be different from the player perspective and is it worth the trouble of setting up such a system.
There is an orc merchant in town, you want him to love you(raise faction) so you get better price. If they give no clue as to what that orc like, you will just go out doing random thing till he loves you and still you won't know why he does. Or, if they make him give you clues while talking to him, then it just becomes a normal quest to raise faction.
The system does have great potential to create a big world full of interaction, but in the end the why's is totally lost on the player, thus making it irrelevent.
Your reasoning behind you posting or not is irrelevent to me. The only thing that matter is the fact that you did post a reply, it could be because you felt I was being a retard and needed to adress it, it could be because you want to educate me, it could be because you are totally bored and don't have anything to do. In the end, on my side, all I see is your answer. The trigger that made you post are not known to me, so yes they are irrelevent to this conversation.
This engine is similar to how animation was changed significantly with software.
Back in the day if you wanted to animate, you had to draw out every frame 1 by 1. The same applies to coding a video game. In order for a developer to create a quest and story line they have to script the entire thing. Sure they can re-use code, just as an artist could re-use an animation. However, you would still have to manually put it all together.
Story bricks is the equivalent of animation software, where you only have to draw each of the characters parts. Like the head, arms, legs, eyes .. ect. Than the program puts it all together for you.
It only needs to be scripted 1 time, and the script can be applied all over the game with out having to re-write the code every single instance it's used. It can be applied to another script. It's even possible a script could do something the developers never even thought it could do.
In other words, on the players end, you wont be able to physically see the difference. However, if you pay attention you may notice the game is filed with a lot more variation than your typical game. All this with much less developer work.
So instead of only a few variations, you end up with hundreds if not thousands with a whole lot less work.
Back in the day, .. .actually even today adding choices to the game increases development time a lot. Because than you have to script for every single different route the player can take. Story bricks, just does that all automatically by evaluating the situation and choosing the best course of action.
Edit: I assure you, it's a ground breaking feature that will allow a game world feel more alive. It will also allow developers to deliver content at an astonishing rate.
I would love to see this implemented in the next Elder Scrolls game.
It doesn't have to be so onedimensional. In your examples, SOE should be clever enough to implement some form of fallback mechanisms for really important stuff. As developer you can allow that an important NPC won't spawn because of certain circumstances if there are multiple ways to the same goal. It's all a matter of clever implementation. And now it's up to the playerbase to find all those possibilities and make them happen. It's very unlikely that all ways will be blocked. And even then the developer could implement things like: no matter what you do, it results in a certain event. But you can't know where, how and when.
There are almost unlimited possibilities to play around with that technique. With enough effort, every server could be different and nontheless deliver at least the core features. Maybe in other places, sooner or later, with other factions involved. And so on.
You could argue that the choice doesn't matter then. But not all things are as critical as a class trainer. And these are the situations where choices can be made really limitless. You can give the players one chance to see a certain event. And if it's gone, it's gone. No real harm apart from work that is wasted on this specific server.
I agree that it's uncertain if SOE will actually make all this happen. It would unbelievably hard work and very expensive to tap the full potential of Storybricks. But let's just hope for the best
The devs stated somewhere that player choices will NOT be blocked. Either via the AI or by player action. An example was that a certain NPC might be the 'trainer' for a class but, even if the NPC was killed there would still be ways to obtain the class.
Is this the storybricks thread?...Couldnt tell. Basically, theyve designed a game within a game and its easy, just program the AI Storybricks element of the game, and then develop the actual gameplay (fighting or what not) and other features. Fine tune the AI again. And then you have a game. They have over 100 people working on this and it shouldnt take more than next year to have an alpha.
Edit: I assure you, it's a ground breaking feature that will allow a game world feel more alive. It will also allow developers to deliver content at an astonishing rate.
100% agree and why those that have actually seen the demo's and read all the design info are really stoked for it. Just got an update from Storybricks via Twitter and the new demo (to replace the one that failed to record at the SOE event) is being done and will be finished in 10 days. Perhaps people might get it once they see it in action.
Originally posted by amx23 Is this the storybricks thread?...Couldnt tell. Basically, theyve designed a game within a game and its easy, just program the AI Storybricks element of the game, and then develop the actual gameplay (fighting or what not) and other features. Fine tune the AI again. And then you have a game. They have over 100 people working on this and it shouldnt take more than next year to have an alpha.
Landmark is effectively the Alpha. As Dave Georgeson said "we have been making EQ Next right before your eyes". Combat is coming the 27th and they are already in a position to start putting a timescale to introducing AI into the game soon.
No, I'm saying there is a clear difference between GW2's public quest system with two different outcomes (depending on complete/not complete) that just rotates on a 30 - 60 minute timer and the Emergent AI system, which allows for hundreds or thousands of outcomes, at any place in the world, that constantly evolves over time with or without player engagement.
Trying to equate the two is about the same as trying to equate a cross bow made in 256 BC to a F-22 Raptor.
Little difference.
While GW2 may only have a win/lose type choice for the script to follow that may or may not lead into another event - what I've read here just insinuates that a single event may end up with more than those two choices.
Each choice will have to have developer time to create the next event path - be it a faction building a city or a group of NPCs building a bridge. In the end, many of these events cannot be permanent fixtures - less the environment become pockmarked with past "events". Don't get me wrong, the event to build a city would obviously be permanent but a "random" type of event for a group of NPCs to sink a mineshaft cannot just be allowed to happen anywhere and at anytime less the gameworld eventually become overrun by abandoned mineshafts.
To that end, the gameworld must reset some dynamic events and in that capacity it will feel just like GW2.
As for what EQN is claiming to attempt to do - I believe Horizons already tried some of this stuff although it was more direct developer engagement than dynamic scripting - if memory serves. (I may be completely wrong).
There is a difference between writing a system that has two possible outcomes, and writing a system that tells the system to find an outcome that fits a particular set of criteria.
In one case, there will only ever be 2 outcomes and adding additional outcomes scales up the amount of work required to produce the outcomes in a linear manner. In the second case, there are many possible outcomes, allowing for many possible responses from players without scaling up the amount of work required to generate the additional outcomes. A change in the environment by the players results in a change in the possible outcomes and responses in the AI mobs. I don't know if it is a "living world", but the AI mobs are certainly reactive to the players and environmental changes without intervention from the developer.
But wouldn't those extra possible outcomes already have to be coded anyway ? In my limited coding experience, I assumed that there was always only 2 outcomes to a single question. 0 or 1, no or yes. While the result could contain variables on the execution, it still always result in 1 of 2 possible outcomes. (NPC attacks or he doesn't, NPC start building a church or he doesn't.)
Can you give me an exemple of how different that system will be working ?
I'm using the orc example because it's the concrete example from the EQN people. An orc will want space, low population, but more than zero population, and no village guards. They will also not want powerful players to attack them. Their choices of what they can do are migrate, attack things and that's pretty much it. So if players are more powerful than the orcs, the orcs will move to a place where players are weaker. If the orcs see a place where there are guards, they won't move there. When the orcs finally find a niche where they fit, they will set up shop and attack the occasional traveler, whether it's an NPC or a Player.
A more intelligent mob might have the option to bribe guards, and if the guards will accept bribes then the more intelligent mobs might setup shop someplace within range of guards, but they would bribe them if there was enough money in the people they attacked.
The original examples from the StoryBricks website were much more complex, allowing for NPCs to dynamically come up with quests based on what they wanted. They were literally going to tell interactive stories, but in a procedural manner. A King might ask a player to do something about some violent nobles, or the violent nobles might ask the player to do something about the King, resulting in a new King who was friendly with the nobles. And so on. The wants can be very specific, resulting in an NPC that functions just like the standard NPC in a quest driven, theme park MMORPG, or the wants can be more general, resulting in different behavior depending on what the environment and the player is doing and has done. If I'm not mistaken, each NPC maintains a player reputation table, along with the NPCs faction. Though, I could be imagining that.
The system can, and probably should have constraints, but within those constraints, the responses of the AI mobs and NPCs should make sense, in an organic way rather than in a way that just follows a script.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Systems like this have been attempted since UO, which had a full ecological system in place but had to scrap it because they could never get it working correctly. Players killed all the animals too fast.
Due to the number of people MMOs are way too chaotic for a complicated AI system to respond too. While I have high hopes for this, i am rather skeptical.
Starr Long, the game's associate producer, explained in 1996:
Nearly everything in the world, from grass to goblins, has a purpose, and not just as cannon fodder either. The 'virtual ecology' affects nearly every aspect of the game world, from the very small to the very large. If the rabbit population suddenly drops (because some gung-ho adventurer was trying out his new mace) then wolves may have to find different food sources (e.g., deer). When the deer population drops as a result, the local dragon, unable to find the food he’s accustomed to, may head into a local village and attack. Since all of this happens automatically, it generates numerous adventure possibilities.
However, this feature never made it beyond the game's beta stage. As Richard Garriott explained:
We thought it was fantastic. We'd spent an enormous amount of time and effort on it. But what happened was all the players went in and just killed everything; so fast that the game couldn't spawn them fast enough to make the simulation even begin. And so, this thing that we'd spent all this time on, literally no-one ever noticed – ever – and we eventually just ripped it out of the game, you know, with some sadness.
Same thing I said in my post on Reddit......That was 1996, this is 2014....we've come along way in PC power.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Well like I said earlier I don't think there is a third choice. It's not freewill AI it's coded choices, Attack or don't attack. After that if don't attack, talk or don't talk could be an option. But it all comes down to why bother with making a complex logic behind all the decision if in the end, the result, is the same and you have no way of knowing what triggered which actions.
If it was true AI, yes there could be a coherant system of like/dislike and it could give something truely amazing. But that's not what we will have. It's all 0 or 1.
My question is what will be different from the player perspective and is it worth the trouble of setting up such a system.
There is an orc merchant in town, you want him to love you(raise faction) so you get better price. If they give no clue as to what that orc like, you will just go out doing random thing till he loves you and still you won't know why he does. Or, if they make him give you clues while talking to him, then it just becomes a normal quest to raise faction.
The system does have great potential to create a big world full of interaction, but in the end the why's is totally lost on the player, thus making it irrelevent.
Your reasoning behind you posting or not is irrelevent to me. The only thing that matter is the fact that you did post a reply, it could be because you felt I was being a retard and needed to adress it, it could be because you want to educate me, it could be because you are totally bored and don't have anything to do. In the end, on my side, all I see is your answer. The trigger that made you post are not known to me, so yes they are irrelevent to this conversation.
Irrelevant to you. Not to people that want to have an improved gameplay experience and understand how Storybricks is providing it.
Using your logic is the equivalent of saying "gonna hit max level anyway, why bother levelling". YOU have the wrong hobby I would suggest!
It's irrelevent as I don't know it, would knowing the reason behind you posting affect the way I read your post ?
Using my logic would be more like hiding the math involving the exp I receive per kill or quests. Do you need to know that information or does getting the result enough ?
There is a logic behind each actions, but be it totally random or something like storybrick propose, can you really tell the difference on a gameplay level ?
Well like I said earlier I don't think there is a third choice. It's not freewill AI it's coded choices, Attack or don't attack. After that if don't attack, talk or don't talk could be an option. But it all comes down to why bother with making a complex logic behind all the decision if in the end, the result, is the same and you have no way of knowing what triggered which actions.
If it was true AI, yes there could be a coherant system of like/dislike and it could give something truely amazing. But that's not what we will have. It's all 0 or 1.
My question is what will be different from the player perspective and is it worth the trouble of setting up such a system.
There is an orc merchant in town, you want him to love you(raise faction) so you get better price. If they give no clue as to what that orc like, you will just go out doing random thing till he loves you and still you won't know why he does. Or, if they make him give you clues while talking to him, then it just becomes a normal quest to raise faction.
The system does have great potential to create a big world full of interaction, but in the end the why's is totally lost on the player, thus making it irrelevent.
Your reasoning behind you posting or not is irrelevent to me. The only thing that matter is the fact that you did post a reply, it could be because you felt I was being a retard and needed to adress it, it could be because you want to educate me, it could be because you are totally bored and don't have anything to do. In the end, on my side, all I see is your answer. The trigger that made you post are not known to me, so yes they are irrelevent to this conversation.
This engine is similar to how animation was changed significantly with software.
Back in the day if you wanted to animate, you had to draw out every frame 1 by 1. The same applies to coding a video game. In order for a developer to create a quest and story line they have to script the entire thing. Sure they can re-use code, just as an artist could re-use an animation. However, you would still have to manually put it all together.
Story bricks is the equivalent of animation software, where you only have to draw each of the characters parts. Like the head, arms, legs, eyes .. ect. Than the program puts it all together for you.
It only needs to be scripted 1 time, and the script can be applied all over the game with out having to re-write the code every single instance it's used. It can be applied to another script. It's even possible a script could do something the developers never even thought it could do.
In other words, on the players end, you wont be able to physically see the difference. However, if you pay attention you may notice the game is filed with a lot more variation than your typical game. All this with much less developer work.
So instead of only a few variations, you end up with hundreds if not thousands with a whole lot less work.
Back in the day, .. .actually even today adding choices to the game increases development time a lot. Because than you have to script for every single different route the player can take. Story bricks, just does that all automatically by evaluating the situation and choosing the best course of action.
Edit: I assure you, it's a ground breaking feature that will allow a game world feel more alive. It will also allow developers to deliver content at an astonishing rate.
I would love to see this implemented in the next Elder Scrolls game.
Now if it does save coding time I am all for it, and that alone would be a pretty good reason to use it.
There is a logic behind each actions, but be it totally random or something like storybrick propose, can you really tell the difference on a gameplay level ?
To the casual observer, such as yourself, you probably won't see a difference as you don't care. But once you understand the needs and drives of each individually, organisation, group or race you can then interact with them in a much more structured way.
If you go to a foreign country and ask for a beer you would probably get one. But if you spoke their language you might find out that there is a better beer, or a cheaper beer, or that it is happy hour next door or that the waitress really liked you and wants to go out for a date.
You would get a beer either way right? But which puts you in a better situation and offers you more choices and would probably lead to a better night out?
Now if it does save coding time I am all for it, and that alone would be a pretty good reason to use it.
You should read the link provided by the OP as a big part of why Storybricks is so different is because the way it is designed means that the way content is introduced and the speed things can be changed is a huge part of the design. I think a lot of us are tying to discuss something and too many people simply haven't read what is being discussed and so things are having to be explained when it is pretty much there in the link.
There is a logic behind each actions, but be it totally random or something like storybrick propose, can you really tell the difference on a gameplay level ?
To the casual observer, such as yourself, you probably won't see a difference as you don't care. But once you understand the needs and drives of each individually, organisation, group or race you can then interact with them in a much more structured way.
If you go to a foreign country and ask for a beer you would probably get one. But if you spoke their language you might find out that there is a better beer, or a cheaper beer, or that it is happy hour next door or that the waitress really liked you and wants to go out for a date.
You would get a beer either way right? But which puts you in a better situation and offers you more choices and would probably lead to a better night out?
It's not the same at all. In a storybrick world I could actually ask for a beer and for some unknown reason get the girl as a bonus. You don't have to talk the language to get her, you just have to have done something that triggered the event. Maybe it's because you are tall and have blue eyes, but you cannot know since the logic behind it is hidden.
You won't get anything more in EQN because you understand the how's of storybrick. You will encounter a camp of orc the same way I do, maybe they will attack you, maybe they won't. Maybe you killed one of the chieftain wifes a couple weeks back on the other side of the continent and he remembers it, he will then proceed to personally run you down and chop you in small bits. Now in your superior knowledge of the system will you get anything more of the experience than I would ? Unless he yells the name of his wife while he charge at you, and for some weird reason you would remember the name of a random orc that you killed months ago, you will never know why the .... that orc is attacking you.
Now if it does save coding time I am all for it, and that alone would be a pretty good reason to use it.
You should read the link provided by the OP as a big part of why Storybricks is so different is because the way it is designed means that the way content is introduced and the speed things can be changed is a huge part of the design. I think a lot of us are tying to discuss something and too many people simply haven't read what is being discussed and so things are having to be explained when it is pretty much there in the link.
Can you point to me where in there they say it will be faster to code and add content ?
Why are so many EQN supporters speaking about Storybricks as if its fully implemented and working in the game already?
Can we just wait to see how it actually works in game before comparing this to ANY playable game right now?
Storybricks is a great systems, it has a lot of potential but that's all it is right now - potential, a possibility.
Comparing a hypothetical system to an actual working system is pointless.
If this is the case why does MMORPG.com create forums for MMOs before they are released? Or, if the discussion is pointless why do people who want to talk about how it won't work, even comment? People on both sides like to hypothesize based upon what is known, even if what is know hasn't been fully shown (full seuss baby!).
What is more pointless to me is spending time posting negatively rather than positively when something isn't "shown". Nothing that I've seen here so far has gone out of the bounds provided by SoE. If someone doesn't think SoE can pull it off why even comment or care? Is it so offensive that people are excited about something they have to comment?
Of course things may not turn out the way SoE wants. Regardless I would rather spend time being positive and excited about the possibilities enough to share that feeling with others.
Why are so many EQN supporters speaking about Storybricks as if its fully implemented and working in the game already?
Can we just wait to see how it actually works in game before comparing this to ANY playable game right now?
Storybricks is a great systems, it has a lot of potential but that's all it is right now - potential, a possibility.
Comparing a hypothetical system to an actual working system is pointless.
If this is the case why does MMORPG.com create forums for MMOs before they are released? Or, if the discussion is pointless why do people who want to talk about how it won't work, even comment? People on both sides like to hypothesize based upon what is known, even if what is know hasn't been fully shown (full seuss baby!).
What is more pointless to me is spending time posting negatively rather than positively when something isn't "shown". Nothing that I've seen here so far has gone out of the bounds provided by SoE. If someone doesn't think SoE can pull it off why even comment or care? Is it so offensive that people are excited about something they have to comment?
Of course things may not turn out the way SoE wants. Regardless I would rather spend time being positive and excited about the possibilities enough to share that feeling with others.
If people didn't care, they wouldn't bother with negative posts. People do care about the name Everquest. What is posting negatively anyway ? Is simply having an opposite opinion negative ? And why would your enthusiasm for the possibility be more valid than my realistic view on what is real.
We are all just sharing opinions. If everyone agreed that EQN is the next baby jesus, this thread would of been over already.
Comments
Well like I said earlier I don't think there is a third choice. It's not freewill AI it's coded choices, Attack or don't attack. After that if don't attack, talk or don't talk could be an option. But it all comes down to why bother with making a complex logic behind all the decision if in the end, the result, is the same and you have no way of knowing what triggered which actions.
If it was true AI, yes there could be a coherant system of like/dislike and it could give something truely amazing. But that's not what we will have. It's all 0 or 1.
My question is what will be different from the player perspective and is it worth the trouble of setting up such a system.
There is an orc merchant in town, you want him to love you(raise faction) so you get better price. If they give no clue as to what that orc like, you will just go out doing random thing till he loves you and still you won't know why he does. Or, if they make him give you clues while talking to him, then it just becomes a normal quest to raise faction.
The system does have great potential to create a big world full of interaction, but in the end the why's is totally lost on the player, thus making it irrelevent.
Your reasoning behind you posting or not is irrelevent to me. The only thing that matter is the fact that you did post a reply, it could be because you felt I was being a retard and needed to adress it, it could be because you want to educate me, it could be because you are totally bored and don't have anything to do. In the end, on my side, all I see is your answer. The trigger that made you post are not known to me, so yes they are irrelevent to this conversation.
What the hell is your point??
Everyone who thinks independently, Join the Hype Train!! Choo Choo
It doesn't have to be so onedimensional. In your examples, SOE should be clever enough to implement some form of fallback mechanisms for really important stuff. As developer you can allow that an important NPC won't spawn because of certain circumstances if there are multiple ways to the same goal. It's all a matter of clever implementation. And now it's up to the playerbase to find all those possibilities and make them happen. It's very unlikely that all ways will be blocked. And even then the developer could implement things like: no matter what you do, it results in a certain event. But you can't know where, how and when.
There are almost unlimited possibilities to play around with that technique. With enough effort, every server could be different and nontheless deliver at least the core features. Maybe in other places, sooner or later, with other factions involved. And so on.
You could argue that the choice doesn't matter then. But not all things are as critical as a class trainer. And these are the situations where choices can be made really limitless. You can give the players one chance to see a certain event. And if it's gone, it's gone. No real harm apart from work that is wasted on this specific server.
I agree that it's uncertain if SOE will actually make all this happen. It would unbelievably hard work and very expensive to tap the full potential of Storybricks. But let's just hope for the best
Irrelevant to you. Not to people that want to have an improved gameplay experience and understand how Storybricks is providing it.
Using your logic is the equivalent of saying "gonna hit max level anyway, why bother levelling". YOU have the wrong hobby I would suggest!
This engine is similar to how animation was changed significantly with software.
Back in the day if you wanted to animate, you had to draw out every frame 1 by 1. The same applies to coding a video game. In order for a developer to create a quest and story line they have to script the entire thing. Sure they can re-use code, just as an artist could re-use an animation. However, you would still have to manually put it all together.
Story bricks is the equivalent of animation software, where you only have to draw each of the characters parts. Like the head, arms, legs, eyes .. ect. Than the program puts it all together for you.
It only needs to be scripted 1 time, and the script can be applied all over the game with out having to re-write the code every single instance it's used. It can be applied to another script. It's even possible a script could do something the developers never even thought it could do.
In other words, on the players end, you wont be able to physically see the difference. However, if you pay attention you may notice the game is filed with a lot more variation than your typical game. All this with much less developer work.
So instead of only a few variations, you end up with hundreds if not thousands with a whole lot less work.
Back in the day, .. .actually even today adding choices to the game increases development time a lot. Because than you have to script for every single different route the player can take. Story bricks, just does that all automatically by evaluating the situation and choosing the best course of action.
Edit: I assure you, it's a ground breaking feature that will allow a game world feel more alive. It will also allow developers to deliver content at an astonishing rate.
I would love to see this implemented in the next Elder Scrolls game.
The devs stated somewhere that player choices will NOT be blocked. Either via the AI or by player action. An example was that a certain NPC might be the 'trainer' for a class but, even if the NPC was killed there would still be ways to obtain the class.
100% agree and why those that have actually seen the demo's and read all the design info are really stoked for it. Just got an update from Storybricks via Twitter and the new demo (to replace the one that failed to record at the SOE event) is being done and will be finished in 10 days. Perhaps people might get it once they see it in action.
Landmark is effectively the Alpha. As Dave Georgeson said "we have been making EQ Next right before your eyes". Combat is coming the 27th and they are already in a position to start putting a timescale to introducing AI into the game soon.
I'm using the orc example because it's the concrete example from the EQN people. An orc will want space, low population, but more than zero population, and no village guards. They will also not want powerful players to attack them. Their choices of what they can do are migrate, attack things and that's pretty much it. So if players are more powerful than the orcs, the orcs will move to a place where players are weaker. If the orcs see a place where there are guards, they won't move there. When the orcs finally find a niche where they fit, they will set up shop and attack the occasional traveler, whether it's an NPC or a Player.
A more intelligent mob might have the option to bribe guards, and if the guards will accept bribes then the more intelligent mobs might setup shop someplace within range of guards, but they would bribe them if there was enough money in the people they attacked.
The original examples from the StoryBricks website were much more complex, allowing for NPCs to dynamically come up with quests based on what they wanted. They were literally going to tell interactive stories, but in a procedural manner. A King might ask a player to do something about some violent nobles, or the violent nobles might ask the player to do something about the King, resulting in a new King who was friendly with the nobles. And so on. The wants can be very specific, resulting in an NPC that functions just like the standard NPC in a quest driven, theme park MMORPG, or the wants can be more general, resulting in different behavior depending on what the environment and the player is doing and has done. If I'm not mistaken, each NPC maintains a player reputation table, along with the NPCs faction. Though, I could be imagining that.
The system can, and probably should have constraints, but within those constraints, the responses of the AI mobs and NPCs should make sense, in an organic way rather than in a way that just follows a script.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Same thing I said in my post on Reddit......That was 1996, this is 2014....we've come along way in PC power.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
It's irrelevent as I don't know it, would knowing the reason behind you posting affect the way I read your post ?
Using my logic would be more like hiding the math involving the exp I receive per kill or quests. Do you need to know that information or does getting the result enough ?
There is a logic behind each actions, but be it totally random or something like storybrick propose, can you really tell the difference on a gameplay level ?
Now if it does save coding time I am all for it, and that alone would be a pretty good reason to use it.
To the casual observer, such as yourself, you probably won't see a difference as you don't care. But once you understand the needs and drives of each individually, organisation, group or race you can then interact with them in a much more structured way.
If you go to a foreign country and ask for a beer you would probably get one. But if you spoke their language you might find out that there is a better beer, or a cheaper beer, or that it is happy hour next door or that the waitress really liked you and wants to go out for a date.
You would get a beer either way right? But which puts you in a better situation and offers you more choices and would probably lead to a better night out?
You should read the link provided by the OP as a big part of why Storybricks is so different is because the way it is designed means that the way content is introduced and the speed things can be changed is a huge part of the design. I think a lot of us are tying to discuss something and too many people simply haven't read what is being discussed and so things are having to be explained when it is pretty much there in the link.
It's not the same at all. In a storybrick world I could actually ask for a beer and for some unknown reason get the girl as a bonus. You don't have to talk the language to get her, you just have to have done something that triggered the event. Maybe it's because you are tall and have blue eyes, but you cannot know since the logic behind it is hidden.
You won't get anything more in EQN because you understand the how's of storybrick. You will encounter a camp of orc the same way I do, maybe they will attack you, maybe they won't. Maybe you killed one of the chieftain wifes a couple weeks back on the other side of the continent and he remembers it, he will then proceed to personally run you down and chop you in small bits. Now in your superior knowledge of the system will you get anything more of the experience than I would ? Unless he yells the name of his wife while he charge at you, and for some weird reason you would remember the name of a random orc that you killed months ago, you will never know why the .... that orc is attacking you.
i feel dumber for having read this thread.
why do i come here anymore
Can you point to me where in there they say it will be faster to code and add content ?
If this is the case why does MMORPG.com create forums for MMOs before they are released? Or, if the discussion is pointless why do people who want to talk about how it won't work, even comment? People on both sides like to hypothesize based upon what is known, even if what is know hasn't been fully shown (full seuss baby!).
What is more pointless to me is spending time posting negatively rather than positively when something isn't "shown". Nothing that I've seen here so far has gone out of the bounds provided by SoE. If someone doesn't think SoE can pull it off why even comment or care? Is it so offensive that people are excited about something they have to comment?
Of course things may not turn out the way SoE wants. Regardless I would rather spend time being positive and excited about the possibilities enough to share that feeling with others.
If people didn't care, they wouldn't bother with negative posts. People do care about the name Everquest. What is posting negatively anyway ? Is simply having an opposite opinion negative ? And why would your enthusiasm for the possibility be more valid than my realistic view on what is real.
We are all just sharing opinions. If everyone agreed that EQN is the next baby jesus, this thread would of been over already.