it stems in how it's a waste of time with non challenging content.
dailies. Boring grind.
a game with multiple classes and alts requiring dailies and slow progression in simple instances before raiding is a long grind for no reason and hurt alting which can offer a great new type of gameplay.
same with Pvp and alting. Takes too much time when the gear grind is too long and not rewarding as it is mostly in a theme park mmo.
if gear grind was simply playing challenging content and something worthwhile as their actual end game and had quick enough progression like lvling in a theme park (subjective but i would say no more than 50 hours of pvping per character to get top gear - instead make the Pvp instance reward hard work and scale to winners similarities to a Moba (dota in 3rd person)and getting buffs in pvp) then ppl would complain less.
in other words devs are plaguing games with their cheap and efficient development with terrible content that does not add value to the game but wastes time of the player and even opportunity cost to developers.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
EVE's real grind is ISK to buy your ships and modules, however there are many forms you can get this that sets apart the gear grind where you have only one source.
Any game is going to be a grind some form or fashion. I hate the typical gear grind where you effort is wiped every 3-4 months and you only have one souce, i.e. raiding. DDO is very grind but that grind is is mostly stays with you always as the real grind is in your character development and build where gear can last you for a very long time.
These are good points. I think any MMO is going to have some form of grind even if the gameplay is fun it's bound to get repetitive and they have to keep you wanting to play for some reason for a long time.What I hate about gear grinds is that it's planned obsolescence. The devs will eventually do something to make all your grinding wortless and you have to start again. That's what makes gear grinds a terrible system IMO>
My problem with geargrind, is that in most mmo's these days it is the only way of improving upon your character.
I was very happy to grind in Everquest, and was a hardcore raider in a guild called Raging Fury on Antonius Bayle, as well as another guild called Darkwind. So I can comfortably state that Im not a stranger to grinding - both content, gear and Alternate Experience points.
Comming from that - what I find so mindnumbingly boring, is the one way vertical grind most mmo's sell their endgame on. A one trick pony, that isnt very satisfying when one can compare it to the experience of being able to invest time in your character and have that be directly translatable into improving the strength of your toon by way of innate ability points.
So if mmo's these days would allow me to build my characters prowess by rewarding me for spending time in the world killing things, and grouping with others, APART from the odd drop, - by means of giving me alternate experience at the rate I consume content - and not through some developer determined rate - like a weekly limit (wildstar) - then I'd be happy to grind, knowing that gear isnt the end all and be all of the whole experience.
It's like anything else in games. Once you've done it a few times it's not new anymore even if you change games. Most mmos don't even try and make it different anymore either. Raid, kill boss, get 1/10th of what you need to get to the next level of gear. Start all over again on your new tier....
This is why i like SWTOR. I have never raided in that game. I spent majority of my time collecting cosmetic items and now housing give me even more options.
I just can not stand gear grind where all the gear i collected becomes useless because new shiny gear has been ptached into the game.
I would happily ground for cosmetic stuff because i know i will be useful till the servers shut down.
People hate gear grinds for the same reason they hate quests... honestly, there isn't anything in an MMO that isn't rinse/repeated over and over again... so in essence, the entire game is just one big grind. The point is, to waste time... if you had something better to do, you'd be doing it.
Heck if you really think about it, most of us would die if we literally had nothing to do. Believe it or not, jobs give people purpose in the world... without them, they would literally go insane with boredom. Our entire lives are made up of grinds... you can't remove them from life, you can't remove them from our games.
The trick is to convince yourself that what you are doing is fun... it makes the time fly. Sometimes you're really lucky and what you do is fun... particularly helpful in the work world, but few are so lucky. So if the game you are playing, feels like a grind, you failed to convince yourself that this is more entertaining than watching paint dry. Try a different game... it's all a matter of finding the right placebo.
there is a population of 7 billion people with all kinds of weird taste. Meaning mmo devs can take a shit and call it an mmo and some from the 7 billion will call it gold. The point is using populations with new generations and old don't speak about the quality of the games. It shows there are enough people in the world to consume garbage.
however, as bad as that sounds games cost money and that's why they are still based on a somewhat reasonable development model. One being, if the development costs a lot of money the game has to have good combat and be fun from the get go. This implies questing is meant to be developed better and better the more a games costs. Look at swtor.
also their is something that hooks players. If a player played through 2 expansions for 1 mmo and it's good enough they will go back to play a 3rd.
similarily a player that goes through the questing to reach end game will spend time playing the end game. The newer the player to mmos the more they feel invested.
and work is different. Working around real people is not a grind in the same way an mmo is a grind. 1. Because a pathetic mmo dev decided to make bad boring content on your behalf and it's meaningless content before you reach end game---unless it's fun or good content. But in work you have to do it since it's contributing to the group. An mmo grind contributes nothing but downtime and does not even allow you to practise challenging content.
To me a grind is dailies. Forced to redo the same instance to many times to progress to the next stage. ( memorizing the instance a few times ago)
Grind is not end game progression. It's only a grind if it's bad end game progression
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Character customization is rather bland for most games, so you're pretty much like everyone else. Gear grinds fundamentally end up "you must have this or you suck"; so you end up being like everyone else there too.
Why do I hate gear grinds? Because it further re-enforces the fact that your character isn't unique.
Honestly, I want a game like Shadowbane. Robust character customization. Randomized gear. Skill based. Sure, it was FFA PVP, but it was still fun. Give us something like that, but for PVE, you'd have yourself a hit.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Seriously, do you want to put in a day's worth of work into a game and have your only reward be a badge?
I don't even need the badge. If mmorpg's required any skill then practicing would be fun just to see your technique improve.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
In Eve, you have to earn the isk to fly the ship you want to fly. And if you get the ship blown up, you have to earn the isk to replace it.
If the player chooses to partake in activities that aren't fun to them to earn the isk, then to them its a grind. It totally falls upon the person behind the keyboard to make their in-game time fun.
And this is the reason why a sandbox will never be more than niche. Only a small portion of the gaming community can actually create their own fun. Most expect others to do it for them.
Maybe it is less about someone's ability to create their own fun and more about some people beingmore easily entertained.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
because crafted gear should always be better than grind gear.
Played:SWG(pre NGE/CU sucked)Yep its true, anyone who quit SWG because of the NGE/CU missed out on a much better combat system. DCUO, Fallen Earth, STO, The Secret World. Battlefield series. Planetside 2. Still playing SWG.
Gear grinds are not inevitable, there are MMO's designed without them. EVE is one right off the bat, always new gear to get, but I'm not grinding in a dungeon to get it.
Nope, EVE has it's own gear grind. You just have to keep making the same gear over and over again as your ship gets ganked by other players. It's nothing BUT a gear grind.
EVE hi-lights the error in all MMO gear grind.
It's finite and has an end conclusion. Usually compensated with making it take 2 eternities of repetition. While EVE offers the solution it also creates a way for people to evade the solution. I'm talking about decay of course. In the case of EVE the decay is destruction through PvP and EVE while it has issues with the linear PvP and the majority of people wanting nothing to do with the zerg trumps all affair, it does have a decay.
Most MMO's don't have any decay. Here is my elite, level cap, purpaloot gear and I am now done until they crank up level cap. Most of the games bury the 'end gear' behind malicious RnG and a thousand hours of treadmill raids but the average player never even touches it because we know the power grinders will rip it apart anyway and a new best thing will be 3 months down the road, so just level cap and wait it out on the gear grind.
Gear grinds are not inevitable, there are MMO's designed without them. EVE is one right off the bat, always new gear to get, but I'm not grinding in a dungeon to get it.
Nope, EVE has it's own gear grind. You just have to keep making the same gear over and over again as your ship gets ganked by other players. It's nothing BUT a gear grind.
I thought you were going in a good direction with your question but than you had to get stuck on EvE...
Not only do you literaly not grind gear in EvE but it's entirely different concept and system compared to what full blown themeparks have, which basicaly invented the term gear grind.
The problem for many is when gear grind becomes the game in itself.
Many feel like gear grind can be fun for a while but it than quickly becomes old and repetitive and starts feeling like a job without real purpose.That is why a lot of people turn away from it. Although I would like to point out that it's our own fault in many ways. People forget that pixel grind is not everything when they put community and other small things in games in second place.
Obviously if we narrow down our mind and go into semantics and unnecessary philosophy we can say that EVERY rpg and esentially real life too is a gear grind. But that's stretching it too far and that's why EvE becomes a good example of a gear grind that is not really a gear grind.
It seems like every game has a few people going on about how it's a gear grind at the end. Don't they get it? If you have gear in your MMO there's going to be gear grinds. It doesn't matter if it's level based or not, if you have some form of equipment or bonus you're going to have people doing everything they can to get the best bonuses they can. So why all the hate? More importantly what else can a game do as a reward once you hit max level? The more you play the more points you get, that's the core of every video game. These points take on different forms, leveling, story progression, etc. For an MMO you get gear.
Seriously, do you want to put in a day's worth of work into a game and have your only reward be a badge?
Many players seem to care less about the journey than the destination. Surely exploring new zones and story arcs and cooperative play with other players is far more interesting than repeating the same 5 raids over and over and over and over ad infinitum. For me the journey and the sense of discovery it should engender should be the core of most games rather than seen as an obstacle to a lot of tedious repetition at the end.
Someone else mentioned GW1 and I think this is a great example of a game that neither relied on levelling as the carrot or endless repetition to keep people playing.
It seems like every game has a few people going on about how it's a gear grind at the end. Don't they get it? If you have gear in your MMO there's going to be gear grinds.
The EQ/WOW-style MMOs taught you well.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Once upon a time, when leveling took a while, every few levels you went searching for your new abilities or the things you needed to craft them. The abilities didn't just magically appear or level up without some effort. That was as exciting or more so than the gear. Of course, you crafted some of your gear also. Items with unique abilities were harder to get and were a status symbol. There were a lot of things to work toward that wasn't gear grinding.
My opinion is there is one type of grind or another if not gear then points or faction or money or horizontal grind or achievement grind or time grind. It makes little sense to try and argue no game is a grind even life is a grind in the end.
Originally posted by Mavolence Why the hate against working on an assembly line, I mean you get paid right and it only gets better!
People play video games in general to escape reality and one of the issue of "reality" that people trying to escape is repetition. Yet, people enjoy the repetition of grinding in video games where you are not really gaining anything that would benefit you in real life, its very illogical. Doing things for the sake of survival is different than doing things for the sake of entertainment.
People play a female character because they want to be a female or atleast try to understand them. While people that plays as an animal character wants to be an animal, lul jks.
have there been any studies associating gear grinding with boredom?
Not directly however there is studies regarding "repetition", its really based on logic. Ask your self would you work in an assembly line for a very long period of time, and all you get is a sets of fancy clothes instead of money? I don't think you would.
Originally posted by cheyane My opinion is there is one type of grind or another if not gear then points or faction or money or horizontal grind or achievement grind or time grind. It makes little sense to try and argue no game is a grind even life is a grind in the end.
Indeed life is a grind, but people that plays video games in general because they want to escape from such reality do they not? Yet what they encounter is yet another grind in another form. Where the elements of immersion became thinner and thinner as this type of behaviour are encouraged, people starting not to care too much about the Roleplaying element, instead just run back and forth to get a piece of gear that you would just throw away later on, when you get a better one. That piece of gear that you just threw away represent your valuable time spent for getting that piece, unless if you don't have anything better to spend your time then it should be acceptable.
I'm only replying to this because behaviour such as this (gear grinding) should not be encouraged. Attaining gear/looks through a series of trials, or event should be the way, to give the playing that exclusive and again veteran looks on your character. Man, I think I'm just describing Guild wars 2 in general, they definitely get things right in the gear perspective, what they did wrong in my opinion is the combat, its great at start but the sub-weapon restriction AH! KILLS IT FOR ME. I just wish my guardian able to use bows and arrow, that's all I want .
I know when I was working I enjoyed coming home to do some menial grindy work because my job used to drain my brain and exhaust me. If I did not have something to do where I did not think I would have gone crazy or get a heart attack and die from the stress. I used to knit,crochet and make bead jewelery because it involved a constant pattern a grind so to speak. I do not think I am alone in this type of quest for relaxing grindy tasks where your mind just takes a back seat as you do them.
I used to grind out levels in Everquest and have done 36 hour camps of Fear ,Hate you know the usual stuff we did and after months may be had like 2 pieces of gear from it. Yeah,yeah me and RNG are mortal foes. But with the chit chat and often wipes and recovery it was not so bad. I do not see a big deal about grinds to be honest and I do not get why people crusade against it.
Games that have end game or even throughout the game grinds have never bothered me it just makes me work towards a goal. I guess some people like me are not really bothered by grinds. To each his own.
And that's okay, because the genre, as it has been for too long, is stagnant and could use more diversity. It has room for tab target games and action combat games. Vertical and horizontal progression. Instanced and non-instanced. Open world pvp and non-open-world-pvp. Sandbox and themepark. Subscription, buy-to-play, and free-to-play.
I would ask the better question - why is anyone opposed to diversification?
And that's okay, because the genre, as it has been for too long, is stagnant and could use more diversity. It has room for tab target games and action combat games. Vertical and horizontal progression. Instanced and non-instanced. Open world pvp and non-open-world-pvp. Sandbox and themepark. Subscription, buy-to-play, and free-to-play.
I would ask the better question - why is anyone opposed to diversification?
Completely agree with those statements...
Personally, I don't mind grinding (as in repeat stuff) as long as it's challenging...
MMOs nowadays are too easy to me. I wouldn't mind a bit of difficulty in some MMOs just to spice it up.
Comments
I'll explain a valid argument.
it stems in how it's a waste of time with non challenging content.
dailies. Boring grind.
a game with multiple classes and alts requiring dailies and slow progression in simple instances before raiding is a long grind for no reason and hurt alting which can offer a great new type of gameplay.
same with Pvp and alting. Takes too much time when the gear grind is too long and not rewarding as it is mostly in a theme park mmo.
if gear grind was simply playing challenging content and something worthwhile as their actual end game and had quick enough progression like lvling in a theme park (subjective but i would say no more than 50 hours of pvping per character to get top gear - instead make the Pvp instance reward hard work and scale to winners similarities to a Moba (dota in 3rd person)and getting buffs in pvp) then ppl would complain less.
in other words devs are plaguing games with their cheap and efficient development with terrible content that does not add value to the game but wastes time of the player and even opportunity cost to developers.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
These are good points. I think any MMO is going to have some form of grind even if the gameplay is fun it's bound to get repetitive and they have to keep you wanting to play for some reason for a long time.What I hate about gear grinds is that it's planned obsolescence. The devs will eventually do something to make all your grinding wortless and you have to start again. That's what makes gear grinds a terrible system IMO>
My problem with geargrind, is that in most mmo's these days it is the only way of improving upon your character.
I was very happy to grind in Everquest, and was a hardcore raider in a guild called Raging Fury on Antonius Bayle, as well as another guild called Darkwind. So I can comfortably state that Im not a stranger to grinding - both content, gear and Alternate Experience points.
Comming from that - what I find so mindnumbingly boring, is the one way vertical grind most mmo's sell their endgame on. A one trick pony, that isnt very satisfying when one can compare it to the experience of being able to invest time in your character and have that be directly translatable into improving the strength of your toon by way of innate ability points.
So if mmo's these days would allow me to build my characters prowess by rewarding me for spending time in the world killing things, and grouping with others, APART from the odd drop, - by means of giving me alternate experience at the rate I consume content - and not through some developer determined rate - like a weekly limit (wildstar) - then I'd be happy to grind, knowing that gear isnt the end all and be all of the whole experience.
He speaks for himself and a few verbal minority around here. In all honesty the majority like gear grinds as do I.
This is why i like SWTOR. I have never raided in that game. I spent majority of my time collecting cosmetic items and now housing give me even more options.
I just can not stand gear grind where all the gear i collected becomes useless because new shiny gear has been ptached into the game.
I would happily ground for cosmetic stuff because i know i will be useful till the servers shut down.
there is a population of 7 billion people with all kinds of weird taste. Meaning mmo devs can take a shit and call it an mmo and some from the 7 billion will call it gold. The point is using populations with new generations and old don't speak about the quality of the games. It shows there are enough people in the world to consume garbage.
however, as bad as that sounds games cost money and that's why they are still based on a somewhat reasonable development model. One being, if the development costs a lot of money the game has to have good combat and be fun from the get go. This implies questing is meant to be developed better and better the more a games costs. Look at swtor.
also their is something that hooks players. If a player played through 2 expansions for 1 mmo and it's good enough they will go back to play a 3rd.
similarily a player that goes through the questing to reach end game will spend time playing the end game. The newer the player to mmos the more they feel invested.
and work is different. Working around real people is not a grind in the same way an mmo is a grind. 1. Because a pathetic mmo dev decided to make bad boring content on your behalf and it's meaningless content before you reach end game---unless it's fun or good content. But in work you have to do it since it's contributing to the group. An mmo grind contributes nothing but downtime and does not even allow you to practise challenging content.
To me a grind is dailies. Forced to redo the same instance to many times to progress to the next stage. ( memorizing the instance a few times ago)
Grind is not end game progression. It's only a grind if it's bad end game progression
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Character customization is rather bland for most games, so you're pretty much like everyone else. Gear grinds fundamentally end up "you must have this or you suck"; so you end up being like everyone else there too.
Why do I hate gear grinds? Because it further re-enforces the fact that your character isn't unique.
Honestly, I want a game like Shadowbane. Robust character customization. Randomized gear. Skill based. Sure, it was FFA PVP, but it was still fun. Give us something like that, but for PVE, you'd have yourself a hit.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
I don't even need the badge. If mmorpg's required any skill then practicing would be fun just to see your technique improve.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Maybe it is less about someone's ability to create their own fun and more about some people being more easily entertained.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Played:SWG(pre NGE/CU sucked)Yep its true, anyone who quit SWG because of the NGE/CU missed out on a much better combat system. DCUO, Fallen Earth, STO, The Secret World. Battlefield series. Planetside 2. Still playing SWG.
I agree completely, though generally if you bring this up in a game forum for your standard gear grind game, people loose their bloody minds.
EVE hi-lights the error in all MMO gear grind.
It's finite and has an end conclusion. Usually compensated with making it take 2 eternities of repetition. While EVE offers the solution it also creates a way for people to evade the solution. I'm talking about decay of course. In the case of EVE the decay is destruction through PvP and EVE while it has issues with the linear PvP and the majority of people wanting nothing to do with the zerg trumps all affair, it does have a decay.
Most MMO's don't have any decay. Here is my elite, level cap, purpaloot gear and I am now done until they crank up level cap. Most of the games bury the 'end gear' behind malicious RnG and a thousand hours of treadmill raids but the average player never even touches it because we know the power grinders will rip it apart anyway and a new best thing will be 3 months down the road, so just level cap and wait it out on the gear grind.
I thought you were going in a good direction with your question but than you had to get stuck on EvE...
Not only do you literaly not grind gear in EvE but it's entirely different concept and system compared to what full blown themeparks have, which basicaly invented the term gear grind.
The problem for many is when gear grind becomes the game in itself.
Many feel like gear grind can be fun for a while but it than quickly becomes old and repetitive and starts feeling like a job without real purpose.That is why a lot of people turn away from it. Although I would like to point out that it's our own fault in many ways. People forget that pixel grind is not everything when they put community and other small things in games in second place.
Obviously if we narrow down our mind and go into semantics and unnecessary philosophy we can say that EVERY rpg and esentially real life too is a gear grind. But that's stretching it too far and that's why EvE becomes a good example of a gear grind that is not really a gear grind.
Many players seem to care less about the journey than the destination. Surely exploring new zones and story arcs and cooperative play with other players is far more interesting than repeating the same 5 raids over and over and over and over ad infinitum. For me the journey and the sense of discovery it should engender should be the core of most games rather than seen as an obstacle to a lot of tedious repetition at the end.
Someone else mentioned GW1 and I think this is a great example of a game that neither relied on levelling as the carrot or endless repetition to keep people playing.
The EQ/WOW-style MMOs taught you well.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Guild Wars 1 progression was fantastic. Replaced stat-gear grind with a horizontal skill-hunt and deep building system.
I've hated gear grinds ever since I played it and saw a much better system through its mechanics.
People play video games in general to escape reality and one of the issue of "reality" that people trying to escape is repetition. Yet, people enjoy the repetition of grinding in video games where you are not really gaining anything that would benefit you in real life, its very illogical. Doing things for the sake of survival is different than doing things for the sake of entertainment.
People play a female character because they want to be a female or atleast try to understand them. While people that plays as an animal character wants to be an animal, lul jks.
Not directly however there is studies regarding "repetition", its really based on logic. Ask your self would you work in an assembly line for a very long period of time, and all you get is a sets of fancy clothes instead of money? I don't think you would.
Indeed life is a grind, but people that plays video games in general because they want to escape from such reality do they not? Yet what they encounter is yet another grind in another form. Where the elements of immersion became thinner and thinner as this type of behaviour are encouraged, people starting not to care too much about the Roleplaying element, instead just run back and forth to get a piece of gear that you would just throw away later on, when you get a better one. That piece of gear that you just threw away represent your valuable time spent for getting that piece, unless if you don't have anything better to spend your time then it should be acceptable.
I'm only replying to this because behaviour such as this (gear grinding) should not be encouraged. Attaining gear/looks through a series of trials, or event should be the way, to give the playing that exclusive and again veteran looks on your character. Man, I think I'm just describing Guild wars 2 in general, they definitely get things right in the gear perspective, what they did wrong in my opinion is the combat, its great at start but the sub-weapon restriction AH! KILLS IT FOR ME. I just wish my guardian able to use bows and arrow, that's all I want
.
I know when I was working I enjoyed coming home to do some menial grindy work because my job used to drain my brain and exhaust me. If I did not have something to do where I did not think I would have gone crazy or get a heart attack and die from the stress. I used to knit,crochet and make bead jewelery because it involved a constant pattern a grind so to speak. I do not think I am alone in this type of quest for relaxing grindy tasks where your mind just takes a back seat as you do them.
I used to grind out levels in Everquest and have done 36 hour camps of Fear ,Hate you know the usual stuff we did and after months may be had like 2 pieces of gear from it. Yeah,yeah me and RNG are mortal foes. But with the chit chat and often wipes and recovery it was not so bad. I do not see a big deal about grinds to be honest and I do not get why people crusade against it.
Games that have end game or even throughout the game grinds have never bothered me it just makes me work towards a goal. I guess some people like me are not really bothered by grinds. To each his own.
It all comes down to personal taste.
And that's okay, because the genre, as it has been for too long, is stagnant and could use more diversity. It has room for tab target games and action combat games. Vertical and horizontal progression. Instanced and non-instanced. Open world pvp and non-open-world-pvp. Sandbox and themepark. Subscription, buy-to-play, and free-to-play.
I would ask the better question - why is anyone opposed to diversification?
Completely agree with those statements...
Personally, I don't mind grinding (as in repeat stuff) as long as it's challenging...
MMOs nowadays are too easy to me. I wouldn't mind a bit of difficulty in some MMOs just to spice it up.
Diversity is the key word I guess...