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Why "MMO's" are in a steady decline.

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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by lizardbones
     

    You are cherry picking examples to illustrate your point.  At the same time there are games that showed more complexity, there are games that got simpler in terms of game play.  Fallout 3 uses far more resources than either Pools of Radiance or Neverwinter Nights, but it's not an especially deep game.  It has tons and tons of content, but that doesn't make the content especially complex.

     

    If games in general got more complex, it would seem like the general trend of that would continue in all genres, but it doesn't.  If that were true, our current crop of RPGs would all be very complex, very deep experiences, and they're not.  Same thing for FPS games, RTS games and even MOBAs, but that isn't happening.

     

    What actually happens seems to be more like games in general streamline as developers figure out what most people actually want and then they push the features, like graphics, that people really want to push.  A small number of developers are games push into the more complex territory, while the majority of games push into the mainstream territory.  Sometimes one of those games in the outlying territories finds something interesting and it gets pushed into the mainstream territory.

     

    I don't disagree with what you are saying here (although even if you want to use Fallout 3 as the example the gameplay is still way deeper than Pool of Radiance). But yes streamlining is an issue (or a good thing if you want to look at it that way) in most genres lately. I do think it effect MMOs even more than other genres I've seen though.

     

    Often the business side gets it wrong though. As we have seen with the recent crowdfunding boom there is actually quite a bit of demand for genres and game mechanics which marketing types tried to tell us we didn't want anymore. 

     

     

    I mentioned Pools of Radiance because I have fond memories of playing it, until I got to some troll's throne room or something and ended up surrounded by as many 8 bit characters as could fit on the 320x240 screen.  Text adventures were low tech, but had deeper stories than the D&D games.  At least as deep as the stories in Fallout 3.  The progression from text adventures to Pools of Radiance resulted in a lessening of the story telling.  From Pools of Radiance to Neverwinter Nights (2) resulted in a deeper story and game play.  From NWN(2) to Fallout 3 resulted in a streamlining of the game play and story telling.  Fallout 3 to Fallout New Vegas resulted in further streamlining, but Minecraft with it's simplistic game mechanics and no story often resulted in far deeper game play than the most recent Fallout games.

     

    I don't think it's only one long effort at streamlining anymore than I think it's only one long effort at adding complexity.  If that were true, we would have games now that were so streamlined we would be flying through them at supersonic speeds, barely able to even see what was happening.  That's where the developers who are off the beaten path come in.  They introduce things that people like, that also introduce complexity.  As time goes on, whatever is added gets streamlined until another developer adds something else to the mix.  Along the way people develop different tastes and ideas of what is "good" too.  We're not at the end of thirty years of streamlining or increased complexity.  We are at the result of streamlining increased complexity, changing tastes and increased technology, all resulting in the video game genre we have today.

     

    I don't think developers told "us" we didn't want those games anymore.  I think what they said, without actually using words, was that they didn't want to spend a hundred thousand dollars to break even.  They want to spend ten to a hundred million dollars to make hundreds of millions of dollars.  This isn't a bad thing.  There has always been room enough for big developers, small developers and indie developers in the market.  Now there's room for developers to make games that aren't being made with the primary goal of making money.  This probably isn't a bad thing either, but it's interesting to note the games that do make money before being built are the ones that are getting built.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • FingzFingz Member UncommonPosts: 139

    Young people no longer join MMOs, they are playing Minecraft, LoL, DOTA and FPS'. 

    As older players leave, there is no one to replace them.

    If you need evidence, look at the recent Sony Fan convention, EQNext conference.  It was just old people 35 and up.  No twenty somethings.

     

  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Member Posts: 489
    Originally posted by Fingz

    Young people no longer join MMOs, they are playing Minecraft, LoL, DOTA and FPS'. 

    As older players leave, there is no one to replace them.

    If you need evidence, look at the recent Sony Fan convention, EQNext conference.  It was just old people 35 and up.  No twenty somethings.

     

    There's nothing good in MMOs tho'.

    I mean I like GW2 for a few things, but it doesn't feel like a MMO. I like the action, I like team work.

    I put about 4 hours to every 1 tho' into League of Legends because it's a more thoughtful and quick experience.

    I'm 33 btw. I don't think it's an age thing. I think it's poor design.

    a yo ho ho

  • DyireDyire Member CommonPosts: 7
    Originally posted by Fingz

    Young people no longer join MMOs, they are playing Minecraft, LoL, DOTA and FPS'. 

    As older players leave, there is no one to replace them.

    If you need evidence, look at the recent Sony Fan convention, EQNext conference.  It was just old people 35 and up.  No twenty somethings.

     

    And yet soe is naive enough to not realise this and still go ahead with making and marketing EQN towards the younger more instant gratification market.

     

    I really wish a reputable company would make an MMORPG similar to EQ/VG for the more mature crowd who don;t mind putting a bit more work into their gaming goals and who tend to form a much more mature and helpful community that also tends to be more loyal to the game and company who created it (if done well).

     

    To answer the OP's question:

    They're not. They're making more money than ever and attracting more players and subscriptions than ever. This information is freely available too, so I am not sure why you created this post without actually fact checking first.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    Originally posted by Fingz

    Young people no longer join MMOs, they are playing Minecraft, LoL, DOTA and FPS'. 

    As older players leave, there is no one to replace them.

    If you need evidence, look at the recent Sony Fan convention, EQNext conference.  It was just old people 35 and up.  No twenty somethings.

     

     

    Or younger players don't go to fan conventions.  There are more than 0 new players and more than 0 young players.  My daughter just started playing WoW and her boyfriend has been playing for a while now.  Young players and new players right there.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,741
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Fingz

    Young people no longer join MMOs, they are playing Minecraft, LoL, DOTA and FPS'. 

    As older players leave, there is no one to replace them.

    If you need evidence, look at the recent Sony Fan convention, EQNext conference.  It was just old people 35 and up.  No twenty somethings.

     

     

    Or younger players don't go to fan conventions.  There are more than 0 new players and more than 0 young players.  My daughter just started playing WoW and her boyfriend has been playing for a while now.  Young players and new players right there.

     

    I am of the opinion that youngsters are joining MMOs, but they also used to be at those conventions. So the idea that younger players don't go to fan conventions does not wash. Unless they have become so intermeshed with the concept of being online they don't see a need to physically go anywhere? :)

     

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by 3-4thElf

    MMOs started out with the proper scope.

    Let's build a fictional world and fill it with stuff for people to find and a few things to do.

    Well people wanted more things to do and they brought in the scope for a 'full personal experience'.

    Console games, single player games, smaller scoped games do this better.

    MMOs can raise again if they focused on the people who want to work together and take on something larger than they've ever seen before.

    Simple and Short and accurate.. 

         IMO.. I wish MMORPG's would go back to their niche community they once owned.. Gaming companies have really bastardized what MMO are in the chase of the almighty dollar..  As far as I'm concern it is PHYSICALLY impossible to create a game that can harness everything under the sun and sell it to everyone..  PvP and PvE are at opposites sides of the game play spectrum..  You can NOT create a game that focuses on PvE content while keeping balance with PvP classes..  In the same turn you can't have balance PvP without homogenizing PvE into boring blur..  There are certain things that make PvE exciting and fun.. Those things being CHARMING mobs for long periods of time, lengthy mez, kiting, illusions and FD to name a few.. 

         So what devs are trying to give us is a Ford Pinto Limo with 4x4 wheel drive that goes from 0 to 100 in less then 6 seconds, for under $20,000.. But in reality we are dealt a Duck Dynasty duck blind that sits in a tree that only family can appreciate.. lol

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Fingz

    Young people no longer join MMOs, they are playing Minecraft, LoL, DOTA and FPS'. 

    As older players leave, there is no one to replace them.

    If you need evidence, look at the recent Sony Fan convention, EQNext conference.  It was just old people 35 and up.  No twenty somethings.

     

     

    Or younger players don't go to fan conventions.  There are more than 0 new players and more than 0 young players.  My daughter just started playing WoW and her boyfriend has been playing for a while now.  Young players and new players right there.

     

    I am of the opinion that youngsters are joining MMOs, but they also used to be at those conventions. So the idea that younger players don't go to fan conventions does not wash. Unless they have become so intermeshed with the concept of being online they don't see a need to physically go anywhere? :)

     

     

    I was at the convention and there was a full spectrum of players there though most, other than kids with their parents, were above 21 from the looks of it.  This is not surprising since it was in Las Vegas and adding airfare, hotel and entrance price is not affordable to most "young" MMO players.  Most players in that age group are either college students, have low paying jobs or neither so gauging the state of MMOs based upon the age group at SoELive isn't very accurate IMO.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by 3-4thElf

    MMOs started out with the proper scope.

    Let's build a fictional world and fill it with stuff for people to find and a few things to do.

    Well people wanted more things to do and they brought in the scope for a 'full personal experience'.

    Console games, single player games, smaller scoped games do this better.

    MMOs can raise again if they focused on the people who want to work together and take on something larger than they've ever seen before.

    Simple and Short and accurate.. 

         IMO.. I wish MMORPG's would go back to their niche community they once owned.. Gaming companies have really bastardized what MMO are in the chase of the almighty dollar..  As far as I'm concern it is PHYSICALLY impossible to create a game that can harness everything under the sun and sell it to everyone..  PvP and PvE are at opposites sides of the game play spectrum..  You can NOT create a game that focuses on PvE content while keeping balance with PvP classes..  In the same turn you can't have balance PvP without homogenizing PvE into boring blur..  There are certain things that make PvE exciting and fun.. Those things being CHARMING mobs for long periods of time, lengthy mez, kiting, illusions and FD to name a few.. 

         So what devs are trying to give us is a Ford Pinto Limo with 4x4 wheel drive that goes from 0 to 100 in less then 6 seconds, for under $20,000.. But in reality we are dealt a Duck Dynasty duck blind that sits in a tree that only family can appreciate.. lol

     

    As soon as you figure out a reliable way to build an MMORPG cheap enough that a niche community can support it, and will also not nitpick the holy hell out of it, be sure to let someone know. 

     

    **

     

    Because there are a lot of little, 2D MMORPGs being put out right now.  They don't get many people because even though "niche" players have a minimum expectation that cannot be met on the cheap.  There are a few Fallout 2 based MMORPGs out there too, but again, the graphics fall well short of the minimum expectations.  Perpetuum is a very well put together "indie" and "niche" game, but not many people play it because of the minimum expectations of the "indie" and "niche" audience.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ThestrainThestrain Member CommonPosts: 390
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by 3-4thElf

    MMOs started out with the proper scope.

    Let's build a fictional world and fill it with stuff for people to find and a few things to do.

    Well people wanted more things to do and they brought in the scope for a 'full personal experience'.

    Console games, single player games, smaller scoped games do this better.

    MMOs can raise again if they focused on the people who want to work together and take on something larger than they've ever seen before.

    Simple and Short and accurate.. 

         IMO.. I wish MMORPG's would go back to their niche community they once owned.. Gaming companies have really bastardized what MMO are in the chase of the almighty dollar..  As far as I'm concern it is PHYSICALLY impossible to create a game that can harness everything under the sun and sell it to everyone..  PvP and PvE are at opposites sides of the game play spectrum..  You can NOT create a game that focuses on PvE content while keeping balance with PvP classes..  In the same turn you can't have balance PvP without homogenizing PvE into boring blur..  There are certain things that make PvE exciting and fun.. Those things being CHARMING mobs for long periods of time, lengthy mez, kiting, illusions and FD to name a few.. 

         So what devs are trying to give us is a Ford Pinto Limo with 4x4 wheel drive that goes from 0 to 100 in less then 6 seconds, for under $20,000.. But in reality we are dealt a Duck Dynasty duck blind that sits in a tree that only family can appreciate.. lol

     

    As soon as you figure out a reliable way to build an MMORPG cheap enough that a niche community can support it, and will also not nitpick the holy hell out of it, be sure to let someone know. 

     

    **

     

    Because there are a lot of little, 2D MMORPGs being put out right now.  They don't get many people because even though "niche" players have a minimum expectation that cannot be met on the cheap.  There are a few Fallout 2 based MMORPGs out there too, but again, the graphics fall well short of the minimum expectations.  Perpetuum is a very well put together "indie" and "niche" game, but not many people play it because of the minimum expectations of the "indie" and "niche" audience.

     

    I agree.

    Its ironic that players want niche but also want it up to quality with AAA products. But who is going to bear the cost of all that?

    Either be satisfied with low quality niche products or stop complaining. Choice is theirs.

  • bigenokiheadbigenokihead Member Posts: 5
    People are having less and less time to play more and more games. That, and the advent of mobile gaming and microtransactions in games that don't require bigger time investments. Even forumers here are looking for "casual" MMOs with casual endgames. Not many people want a second life anymore as much as in the early 00's.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Thestrain

    Its ironic that players want niche but also want it up to quality with AAA products. But who is going to bear the cost of all that?

     

    The whales?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by bigenokihead
    People are having less and less time to play more and more games. That, and the advent of mobile gaming and microtransactions in games that don't require bigger time investments. Even forumers here are looking for "casual" MMOs with casual endgames. Not many people want a second life anymore as much as in the early 00's.

    Absolutely right. Games are just entertainment. The good ones, I will spend more time on. But a second life? I already have a life. I don't need a second one.

     

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by daltanious
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    I haven't seen any numbers that support the idea that there are less people playing mmos. There are a ton of game people are playing. I guess what you are saying is YOU can't find a game you like (how sad) therefore the industry is in a steady decline. (OMG the end of the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

    Exactly. Actually never so many played games as nowadays and never have been so many MMO out there.

    Mhmm.

    Each time I see one of these threads I'm reminded of the dinosaurs and what happens to species that can't adapt to changes in their environment.

    I guess in this case the T-Rex gets behind a keyboard and starts reminiscing about the good old days when he got to gank noobs over and over again until they cancelled their subscription.

    And people wonder why developers don't see any profit in pleasing these dinos... image

     

     

    If a T-Rex can't pass the salt, then how do they type?  That's just beyond ridiculous.

     

    LOL, no wonder they get so cranky. They're using expensive voice operated software! :O

    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

    Another of those threads pretending MMOs are on a decline when there were never so many MMO players in the world as nowadays.

    image

    Yup, they should all be translated into: MMO's that don't cater to what I want are in decline. image

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • kresa3333kresa3333 Member UncommonPosts: 64

    Decline? how about the other way around , now days allmost anyone got a strong internet connection also gaming is only becoming more popular...
    It only looks this way because of the masses of mmo games in the market.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    MMOs aren't declining, but they also aren't leading the way in online gaming.

    Casual/Social games are and by a large margin. MOBAs are quickly becoming more popular than MMOs as well. There are more MMOs players than ever because of the availability of high-speed internet, gaming PCs, and the low barriers to entry that results from this and games that adopt F2P or subscription-only payment methods. Couple that with mainstream attention garnered by WoW, and here we are, for better or worse.


    Folks ask for innovation in the genre, and it's coming: market saturation always provides the competitive scene needed for developers and investors to start seeking new and innovative ways to both do business and create games. Kick starter projects, anyone?

    MMOs aren't in a steady decline, but I wouldn't be surprised if the big-time development scene for the genre starts to decline. Folks like Blizzard are already moving away from the genre. NCSoft will continue funding the fuel for eastern gaming's addiction, as will a few others who make that money in the east.. But I don't see the western market continuing to support AAA development costs. At least not until numerous current offerings die and WoW truly falls from its mountaintop.

    image
  • Javelin007Javelin007 Member UncommonPosts: 18

    So several of you are commenting that I am asking for "the good ol days" of ganking noobs until they quit.

     

    Not the case. I used examples of projects most people know about, projects that started the whole genre to illustrate that in the mmo space not much has changed from the originals. They are more streamlined with better graphics and that's... about... it. You can take any mmo out there and easily fit it into either a UO category or an EQ category, period.

     

    Others are taking my comment about MMO's declining as a comment about the decline of all mmo's as a whole. Let me explain why I conclude that MMO's are in decline.

     

    With the exception of WoW, there is not a single MMO that has a steady "non declining" player base even 6 months after release, at least not that I have found, so if you know of one that is adding servers because it can't handle the huge influx of players a year after it's release please let me know. Even Wildstar, a very hyped MMO, AAA, heavy hitting MMO is not meeting it's promised sale goals of 5 million copies (which is what it would take for them to consider this project a success), they have sold 2 million and player base is in decline across many servers, some are variable ghost towns already and the game hasn't even been out for a year.

     

    The market is diluted with the same gameplay experience modeled after WoW because WoW makes millions and publishers want a sure bet. Success breeds copycats because it's safer than doing something new. This isn't revolutionary thinking, you all know this.

     

    Yet when something new, done in the right way for what it is (LoL for instance) it becomes ultra successful, rather than biting off crumbs from Warcraft 3 or Starcraft or any other RTS game they created something new. They spawned a whole new genre of games that are now being copy-catted, I'm sure some of you remember not too long ago there was no moba section on this website.

     

    What I want to happen is more innovation, more drastic exploration in style of gameplay applied to an mmo space where the only reason it would even be described as an mmo is because it is setup for being massively multiplayer and online. It doesn't have to follow my ideas for how to achieve something new, I'm just tired of seeing the same game in a new box.

     

    If this thought process seems archaic and makes me a dinosaur, well then I suppose there are worse dinosaurs to be than a T-Rex.

  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,429

    Let me get this straight:

    People playing MMO games =/ MMO players.

    There are more so-called MMOs than ever, but they are played more and more often by someone else than MMO players.

    ..and that's why you can really say "MMOs are in a steady decline".

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by 3-4thElf

    MMOs started out with the proper scope.

    Let's build a fictional world and fill it with stuff for people to find and a few things to do.

    Well people wanted more things to do and they brought in the scope for a 'full personal experience'.

    Console games, single player games, smaller scoped games do this better.

    MMOs can raise again if they focused on the people who want to work together and take on something larger than they've ever seen before.

    Simple and Short and accurate.. 

         IMO.. I wish MMORPG's would go back to their niche community they once owned.. Gaming companies have really bastardized what MMO are in the chase of the almighty dollar..  As far as I'm concern it is PHYSICALLY impossible to create a game that can harness everything under the sun and sell it to everyone..  PvP and PvE are at opposites sides of the game play spectrum..  You can NOT create a game that focuses on PvE content while keeping balance with PvP classes..  In the same turn you can't have balance PvP without homogenizing PvE into boring blur..  There are certain things that make PvE exciting and fun.. Those things being CHARMING mobs for long periods of time, lengthy mez, kiting, illusions and FD to name a few.. 

         So what devs are trying to give us is a Ford Pinto Limo with 4x4 wheel drive that goes from 0 to 100 in less then 6 seconds, for under $20,000.. But in reality we are dealt a Duck Dynasty duck blind that sits in a tree that only family can appreciate.. lol

     

    As soon as you figure out a reliable way to build an MMORPG cheap enough that a niche community can support it, and will also not nitpick the holy hell out of it, be sure to let someone know. 

     

    **

     

    Because there are a lot of little, 2D MMORPGs being put out right now.  They don't get many people because even though "niche" players have a minimum expectation that cannot be met on the cheap.  There are a few Fallout 2 based MMORPGs out there too, but again, the graphics fall well short of the minimum expectations.  Perpetuum is a very well put together "indie" and "niche" game, but not many people play it because of the minimum expectations of the "indie" and "niche" audience.

     

    World of Tanks and League of Legends are VERY niche games..   Eve is considered niche to many..   What were you saying again about profitability?

  • KopogeroKopogero Member UncommonPosts: 1,685

    All things end, what OP needs to look at how long some of the MMO's flourish before they deteriorate. Sadly not a lot of MMO's go from worse to better within 1-2 years after their release, sadly but we've been receiving a lot of medicore MMO's over the past couple years so this is just natural.

    I'm enjoying Path of Exile right now, ARPG that's been flourishing and getting better since its launch year ago.

    image

  • jordanbraxtonjordanbraxton Member Posts: 8
     a game that is MMO pops suddenly and is great, so yeah there will be no more KING of the Hill MMO but there are others that do it with justice, Firefall and Wildstar is on those categories i believe!
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by MadFrenchie
    MMOs aren't declining, but they also aren't leading the way in online gaming.

    Casual/Social games are and by a large margin. MOBAs are quickly becoming more popular than MMOs as well.

    No problem. Just classified MOBAs as MMOs (as many industrial research sites), and MMO will suddenly look much better.

     

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,741
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by MadFrenchie
    MMOs aren't declining, but they also aren't leading the way in online gaming.

    Casual/Social games are and by a large margin. MOBAs are quickly becoming more popular than MMOs as well.

    No problem. Just classified MOBAs as MMOs (as many industrial research sites), and MMO will suddenly look much better.

     

    This is about the death of a style of gameplay. Adventure games died because they were not appealing to enough of the market, the same has happened to MMOs. What MMOs have become may well not appeal to enough of the market, and current 'MMOs' will die as well. MOBA's and other games like them may inherit the space that MMOs once held. Once a genre moves far enough from the mainstream it effectively dies, before you mention Sherlock Holmes again Nari, Adventure games need to be mainstream to be considered a vibrant genre, the days of Monkey Island are gone.

    None of this is about making the best games you will notice, it is all about appealing to the maximum numbers of punters as possible, any genre that cannot do that is destined for the dustbin.

     

  • dannydevitodannydevito Member Posts: 5
    well is there any MMO worth checking out? i quitted WoW because of the SUB .. leaning for FREE games .. recommend one to two pls.
  • BoneserinoBoneserino Member UncommonPosts: 1,768
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by 3-4thElf

    MMOs started out with the proper scope.

    Let's build a fictional world and fill it with stuff for people to find and a few things to do.

    Well people wanted more things to do and they brought in the scope for a 'full personal experience'.

    Console games, single player games, smaller scoped games do this better.

    MMOs can raise again if they focused on the people who want to work together and take on something larger than they've ever seen before.

    Simple and Short and accurate.. 

         IMO.. I wish MMORPG's would go back to their niche community they once owned.. Gaming companies have really bastardized what MMO are in the chase of the almighty dollar..  As far as I'm concern it is PHYSICALLY impossible to create a game that can harness everything under the sun and sell it to everyone..  PvP and PvE are at opposites sides of the game play spectrum..  You can NOT create a game that focuses on PvE content while keeping balance with PvP classes..  In the same turn you can't have balance PvP without homogenizing PvE into boring blur..  There are certain things that make PvE exciting and fun.. Those things being CHARMING mobs for long periods of time, lengthy mez, kiting, illusions and FD to name a few.. 

         So what devs are trying to give us is a Ford Pinto Limo with 4x4 wheel drive that goes from 0 to 100 in less then 6 seconds, for under $20,000.. But in reality we are dealt a Duck Dynasty duck blind that sits in a tree that only family can appreciate.. lol

     

    As soon as you figure out a reliable way to build an MMORPG cheap enough that a niche community can support it, and will also not nitpick the holy hell out of it, be sure to let someone know. 

     

    **

     

    Because there are a lot of little, 2D MMORPGs being put out right now.  They don't get many people because even though "niche" players have a minimum expectation that cannot be met on the cheap.  There are a few Fallout 2 based MMORPGs out there too, but again, the graphics fall well short of the minimum expectations.  Perpetuum is a very well put together "indie" and "niche" game, but not many people play it because of the minimum expectations of the "indie" and "niche" audience.

     

    World of Tanks and League of Legends are VERY niche games..   Eve is considered niche to many..   What were you saying again about profitability?

    Sorry but WoT and WoL are multiplayer games.    And for the gazillionth time, EVE is EVE.   You can't name another game besides EVE because there are no others

     

    People are still trying to recreate its success,  in fact even EVE's creators cant recreate its success.

     

     

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

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