As someone who PvP's a lot, I just want to thank the OP for going out of his way to put this information out there. I wish there were more posts like this in the "article"/"column" section.
I don't plan to play AA even though it kind of reminds me of EQ2 which I loved, but still...
Not sure why but when I see a post complaining about a tenth of a second difference in ability spam I can't help but laugh. I played competitive arena in WoW with high speed wifi sitting around 300 + ms.
Should Trion address this issue, yes! Is it a game breaker, absolutely not! This is the reason that we hardly see any good MMOs successful anymore, the gamers nitpick everything and kill the game over ridiculous things.
WoW has server side ability que. Thank you for proving my point though, since WoW having an server side ability que is exactly why you are able to play competitive arena with 300ms+ ping. Also, in any PVP situation where skilled players are involved, tenth of a second is all that separates between life and death.
There are tons of issues that I can nitpick, starting from stupid PVP flagging mechanic, right through graphical bugs and performance issues, and lack of some other basic MMO functionality. But I didn't, because these are all fixable, tolerable, and quite franky, non-gamebreaking (cept for PVP flagging, but that actually will be fixed by XL games, since its a major issue in all 3 versions of the game, and XL already put it as a priority). Also, I believe that in most situations, we can and should cut the devs some slack. It is F2P game after all. Not on lag issue though. These kind of things are what the people later bring up when they talk about "that amazing and promising MMO, that could've killed WoW, if only Devs listened and fixed that bullshit". Saw it too many times, dont want ArcheAge to follow the same path.
I dont know why people keep downplaying this, one of the must unfun experiences in online gaming is to die because of lag. On a game with such a strong pvp such as this, small scale skirmishes will cover the landscape, even pve is affected by this, 10% damage is a lot to giveup, you don't need to be hardcore arena player to notice this, it's just something basic necessary to equalize the playing field, implementing ability queue is not even game-changing or overly complex but it helps a lot the foreign players, as if it was a terrible thing to implement a feature to increase the quality of life in a game.
Macros would happen with or without ability queue, you might actually himper yourself when the combat is dynamic and ever-changing, the only thing you need to worry about macros is when they can fire abilities faster than humanely possible.
I dont know why people keep downplaying this, one of the must unfun experiences in online gaming is to die because of lag. On a game with such a strong pvp such as this, small scale skirmishes will cover the landscape, even pve is affected by this, 10% damage is a lot to giveup, you don't need to be hardcore arena player to notice this, it's just something basic necessary to equalize the playing field, implementing ability queue is not even game-changing or overly complex but it helps a lot the foreign players, as if it was a terrible thing to implement a feature to increase the quality of life in a game.
Macros would happen with or without ability queue, you might actually himper yourself when the combat is dynamic and ever-changing, the only thing you need to worry about macros is when they can fire abilities faster than humanely possible.
Actually, certain types of macroing can help alleviate the situation. If you have an MMO mouse with special buttons for skills, setting your mouse to "mash-on-hold", i.e if I press and hold button that is assigned to a certain skill on a hotbar, mouse will simulate me "mashing" that button (I personally set mine to 25ms interval), it does help allieviate some of the pain, at the very least, your mouse will be left intact and not break from actual mashing. On the other hand, complex macros are completely unusable it that case, since lag means your skill rotation timing is unreliable, and it throws the whole predetermined macroed sequence off que.
As for "firing abilities faster than humanely possible", thats what GCD is for, to set a certain baseline.
Just to give an update on the issue - Trion said they will implement client-side ability que. That will not fix the issue with prolonged effective GCD, but will fix skills failing to go off entirely, and reduce the need to mash your keyboard like crazy. A step in the right direction, but not a comprehensive solution.
Originally posted by Bladestrom In a semi hardcore pvp sandbox that's a game breaker if it were true, is there no technical mitigation in place? Seems unlikely they would not have considered this.
Watch the video. Game was designed by Korean developer. They have no need for the systems such as this in Korea. Check the video, its should give you some impression. I was shocked when I first fought a mob. Horrible experience.Even ESO compared to this is fluid and precise. It is indeed game breaker.
Quit reading after this....
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Spent a lot of time in the last few tests. Cannot argue, the animations / abilities absolutely have to be addressed. It feels very clunky and sometimes unresponsive. Almost like AoC when it launched though not as bad. (I dunno what it is like now)
Playing : DayZ
Played : EVE, GW, SB, DF, AoC, WoW, WaR, L1, L2, Rift, AA, WS
Originally posted by Talketzanto If true, this does seem scary
How is it scary? AA was never, and will never be an E-sport. Just one zergfest after another. Large Scale Battles = Zergs.
Funny because 99% of my fights were 1v1 vs the enemy factions
Yeah I personally don't see this game being zergy at all besides the ocean battles. This game was made for the roamer pvper.. zergs are problems in every pvp heavy game, but I don't see it as being overly zergy at all...
I personally did not notice any latency or lag issues although I had some guildies say they were lagging a lot. Maybe it was a gpu/cpu issue.. No latency/lag issues whatsoever even though we were running through the seas and diving in and out of the waters with over 30 people and more then 5 ships. I guess I always expect there to be some lag with 100+ people. They do have servers on certain continents for a reason, don't they? I'll be sure to play more and see how they handle it. As it is maybe i'm not hardcore enough to notice and enjoy a great game.. Shucks.
Really??Are people actually bitching about millisecond ping-times in this day and age? No... tell me are people REALLY bitching about ping times still?
Go play Quake 2 on a dial up connection and enter a server with a dozen DSL users, then come back to this thread and bitch away all you like. You people are talking about ping times that are still faster than the average human reaction time. In other words you won't notice or see them.
FPS games did not always have lag-compensation. The early ones played fine. People with 100 ms differences still remained competitive with others. Is this generation of gamer such a spoiled little elitist they can't even deal with some latency?
Go back to the real world and play catch if you want low-lag gaming... oh wait... that's right. The average human reaction time is 215 ms!!! Ohhh geez! How can we function with anything more than 100 ms!?!??!?!?!??!
People bitching about lag need to A) Play this game on a PC that won't stutter and cause frame rate drops that sooooooooooooooooo freakin' many gamers label as "lag" and actually play the goddamned game instead of speculate about playing it.
I live in Bumblefuck, the middle of absolutely nowhere, high-desert, no town for 90 miles southwestern US. I had plenty of PvP action with 0 lag issues during the last 2 betas on high pop servers. According to the doomsayers on this thread, I should have been dead simply by logging into the game!
In South Korea they have the best internet connection, then any country, ability queues aren't needed there. However, it would be in your best interest to convey your concerns on the AA forums, there's a few things lacking in the game that are needed. Like a way to save gear sets and builds, equipment bags, modern quality of life feature you see in most mmos.
I'm not thinking specially in playing this thing, but sometimes I wonder maybe it could be a boredom pain reliever whilst other good games are coming on stage. But oh, wait, I will not be deranged by someone by the only reason he has better ping than me. So that, if they don't open EU servers with que I will not play this under any circumstance.
Originally posted by Eridanix I'm not thinking specially in playing this thing, but sometimes I wonder maybe it could be a boredom pain reliever whilst other good games are coming on stage. But oh, wait, I will not be deranged by someone by the only reason he has better ping than me. So that, if they don't open EU servers with que I will not play this under any circumstance.
its not goin to be a boredom pain relief, buddy,. It takes a bit of effort to actully get anythign accomplished in AA. plus you'll need a guild or at least a few friends.
They wont add anything to EU that wont be added to NA, que or not. I dont think this is the game your looking for to relieve boredom. You may want to try WoW.
Really??Are people actually bitching about millisecond ping-times in this day and age? No... tell me are people REALLY bitching about ping times still?
Go play Quake 2 on a dial up connection and enter a server with a dozen DSL users, then come back to this thread and bitch away all you like. You people are talking about ping times that are still faster than the average human reaction time. In other words you won't notice or see them.
FPS games did not always have lag-compensation. The early ones played fine. People with 100 ms differences still remained competitive with others. Is this generation of gamer such a spoiled little elitist they can't even deal with some latency?
Go back to the real world and play catch if you want low-lag gaming... oh wait... that's right. The average human reaction time is 215 ms!!! Ohhh geez! How can we function with anything more than 100 ms!?!??!?!?!??!
People bitching about lag need to A) Play this game on a PC that won't stutter and cause frame rate drops that sooooooooooooooooo freakin' many gamers label as "lag" and actually play the goddamned game instead of speculate about playing it.
I live in Bumblefuck, the middle of absolutely nowhere, high-desert, no town for 90 miles southwestern US. I had plenty of PvP action with 0 lag issues during the last 2 betas on high pop servers. According to the doomsayers on this thread, I should have been dead simply by logging into the game!
This is a MMO not a FPS and we are talking about ability delay. With no skill queue or lag compensation, the guy with better ping than you, will do more dps in the same amount of time than someone wtih 200ms.
Originally posted by Talketzanto If true, this does seem scary
How is it scary? AA was never, and will never be an E-sport. Just one zergfest after another. Large Scale Battles = Zergs.
Funny because 99% of my fights were 1v1 vs the enemy factions
Yeah I personally don't see this game being zergy at all besides the ocean battles. This game was made for the roamer pvper.. zergs are problems in every pvp heavy game, but I don't see it as being overly zergy at all...
I personally did not notice any latency or lag issues although I had some guildies say they were lagging a lot. Maybe it was a gpu/cpu issue.. No latency/lag issues whatsoever even though we were running through the seas and diving in and out of the waters with over 30 people and more then 5 ships. I guess I always expect there to be some lag with 100+ people. They do have servers on certain continents for a reason, don't they? I'll be sure to play more and see how they handle it. As it is maybe i'm not hardcore enough to notice and enjoy a great game.. Shucks.
I am not talking about lag spikes/packet loss, or any connectivity issues. I am talking about the fact that the higher your latency, the lower your DPS is, plain and simple. 200ms=30% DPS nerf.
Let me get this straight, you are PVPing with 5 other folks, you want the game to calculate the latency of each player and reduce the throughput of all the players to the lowest common denominator so that they all experience an equal delay in abilities?
Let me get this straight, you are PVPing with 5 other folks, you want the game to calculate the latency of each player and reduce the throughput of all the players to the lowest common denominator so that they all experience an equal delay in abilities?
No, I want server side ability que. Latency is already disadvantage, no way around that, but there are technologies to fix at least some effects of it without negatively affecting experience of other players, with less latency. That is what ability que is, and that is what some other lag compensation techniques are. That is what I want.
So. Game is set to release on 16th. No word on ability que. I guess Aussies, New Zealanders, Middle Easterners and people who live outside of NA or EU in general get the shaft. Again. Well, was fun while it lasted.
Originally posted by manaek So. Game is set to release on 16th. No word on ability que. I guess Aussies, New Zealanders, Middle Easterners and people who live outside of NA or EU in general get the shaft. Again. Well, was fun while it lasted.
Even with existing technologies, there are disadvantages. For swtor the server is in Ireland. If I fought a stealthy and they initiated then most of the fights it would look like I died in 3 secs. Of course when I play the stealth class it's nowhere as good. So those technologies can only do so much if they don't hinder the others timing at all then it's probably useless. I was probably experiencing rubber banding but swtor devs programmed it to not look like rubber banding.
best option is a more localized server or a private server. I'm against stealing but playing on a server too far away means I can only play the worst part of the game properly, and that's the lvling. It removes the chance to finish the extremely challenging content. Which I was able to do, but I imagine the amount of effort it took me to do it was nowhere as challenging for someone with lower ping. Same thing with pvp in swtor and invisible classes, and I eventually beat a pro after dying too many times but the amount of effort was not rewarding when it's a constant problem.
so there needs to be localization or private servers. They can cross server for other things such as raiding. But for pvp it can't be high ping.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Correct me if im wrong, but what in the world would server side skill queue do? if you have lag, you can still only send your key presses so fast to the server, just because it press 1 5 2 3 4 5 really fast, doesn't mean it will be send to the server that fast, it will still only be send to the server with the ms lag i have.
Originally posted by FeralLoki Correct me if im wrong, but what in the world would server side skill queue do? if you have lag, you can still only send your key presses so fast to the server, just because it press 1 5 2 3 4 5 really fast, doesn't mean it will be send to the server that fast, it will still only be send to the server with the ms lag i have.
You can cast next skill before first one finish, that is server queue and help with lag, so even if you have lag your next skill will be casted right after previous skill finnish. Now without server queue for skills you need wait to finish, then press next skill and that is problem.
So with server queue if you don't really have big lag above 300, you will manage to cast next skill during previous skill cast time or global cooldown and skill we be played instantly no matter of your lag. So simple, with server queue for skills:
First skill - LAG - game do first skill, you cast second skill - game do immediately second skill after first - you start third during 2nd....
Without it:
First skill - LAG - game do first skill- LAG - you cast second skill - LAG - game do second skill - LAG - you cast third skill - LAG - game do third skill.....
Ability Que ues are dumb and cheesy game play and yes latency as well as your machine and the TYPE of bandwidth pla ya huge roll in pvp.That si why twitch combat is so tough,you NEED certain ideas to make it at least skillful so that you can over come issues with skill.However if skill is on equal then yes you have literally no chance,then add in aimbotting and you have 0 chance.
There is no good way around it,Unreal was the biggest pvp shooter going and it became so crazy even 15 ping was considered a viable difference.They implemented a zero ping mod but imo it is not good enough and does not fix other issues ,imo it only makes the perfect machine,bandwidth even better.
You just have to deal with it and play only for fun however i realize not much fun always playing against the odds.This is why i detest pvp in my mmorpg's they do not come even remotely close to having good design to make pvp skillful.Playing Unreal i could overcome pings and bandwidth and machine/gpu with skillful playing and map knowledge and prediction and cover,rpg's offer NONE of that.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Comments
As someone who PvP's a lot, I just want to thank the OP for going out of his way to put this information out there. I wish there were more posts like this in the "article"/"column" section.
I don't plan to play AA even though it kind of reminds me of EQ2 which I loved, but still...
My hat is off to you sir.
WoW has server side ability que. Thank you for proving my point though, since WoW having an server side ability que is exactly why you are able to play competitive arena with 300ms+ ping. Also, in any PVP situation where skilled players are involved, tenth of a second is all that separates between life and death.
There are tons of issues that I can nitpick, starting from stupid PVP flagging mechanic, right through graphical bugs and performance issues, and lack of some other basic MMO functionality. But I didn't, because these are all fixable, tolerable, and quite franky, non-gamebreaking (cept for PVP flagging, but that actually will be fixed by XL games, since its a major issue in all 3 versions of the game, and XL already put it as a priority). Also, I believe that in most situations, we can and should cut the devs some slack. It is F2P game after all. Not on lag issue though. These kind of things are what the people later bring up when they talk about "that amazing and promising MMO, that could've killed WoW, if only Devs listened and fixed that bullshit". Saw it too many times, dont want ArcheAge to follow the same path.
I dont know why people keep downplaying this, one of the must unfun experiences in online gaming is to die because of lag. On a game with such a strong pvp such as this, small scale skirmishes will cover the landscape, even pve is affected by this, 10% damage is a lot to giveup, you don't need to be hardcore arena player to notice this, it's just something basic necessary to equalize the playing field, implementing ability queue is not even game-changing or overly complex but it helps a lot the foreign players, as if it was a terrible thing to implement a feature to increase the quality of life in a game.
Macros would happen with or without ability queue, you might actually himper yourself when the combat is dynamic and ever-changing, the only thing you need to worry about macros is when they can fire abilities faster than humanely possible.
Actually, certain types of macroing can help alleviate the situation. If you have an MMO mouse with special buttons for skills, setting your mouse to "mash-on-hold", i.e if I press and hold button that is assigned to a certain skill on a hotbar, mouse will simulate me "mashing" that button (I personally set mine to 25ms interval), it does help allieviate some of the pain, at the very least, your mouse will be left intact and not break from actual mashing. On the other hand, complex macros are completely unusable it that case, since lag means your skill rotation timing is unreliable, and it throws the whole predetermined macroed sequence off que.
As for "firing abilities faster than humanely possible", thats what GCD is for, to set a certain baseline.
Quit reading after this....
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Playing : DayZ
Played : EVE, GW, SB, DF, AoC, WoW, WaR, L1, L2, Rift, AA, WS
Loved: DAoC, EVE, SB, old WoW, L2, GW2, EQ1-2
Weird i have not experienced any latency issues.
And when i do, i just unplug my mouse and trow it in the server room :P
Yeah I personally don't see this game being zergy at all besides the ocean battles. This game was made for the roamer pvper.. zergs are problems in every pvp heavy game, but I don't see it as being overly zergy at all...
I personally did not notice any latency or lag issues although I had some guildies say they were lagging a lot. Maybe it was a gpu/cpu issue.. No latency/lag issues whatsoever even though we were running through the seas and diving in and out of the waters with over 30 people and more then 5 ships. I guess I always expect there to be some lag with 100+ people. They do have servers on certain continents for a reason, don't they? I'll be sure to play more and see how they handle it. As it is maybe i'm not hardcore enough to notice and enjoy a great game.. Shucks.
Really??Are people actually bitching about millisecond ping-times in this day and age? No... tell me are people REALLY bitching about ping times still?
Go play Quake 2 on a dial up connection and enter a server with a dozen DSL users, then come back to this thread and bitch away all you like. You people are talking about ping times that are still faster than the average human reaction time. In other words you won't notice or see them.
FPS games did not always have lag-compensation. The early ones played fine. People with 100 ms differences still remained competitive with others. Is this generation of gamer such a spoiled little elitist they can't even deal with some latency?
Go back to the real world and play catch if you want low-lag gaming... oh wait... that's right. The average human reaction time is 215 ms!!! Ohhh geez! How can we function with anything more than 100 ms!?!??!?!?!??!
People bitching about lag need to A) Play this game on a PC that won't stutter and cause frame rate drops that sooooooooooooooooo freakin' many gamers label as "lag" and
actually play the goddamned game instead of speculate about playing it.
I live in Bumblefuck, the middle of absolutely nowhere, high-desert, no town for 90 miles southwestern US. I had plenty of PvP action with 0 lag issues during the last 2 betas on high pop servers. According to the doomsayers on this thread, I should have been dead simply by logging into the game!
It is a question of fangs.
its not goin to be a boredom pain relief, buddy,. It takes a bit of effort to actully get anythign accomplished in AA. plus you'll need a guild or at least a few friends.
They wont add anything to EU that wont be added to NA, que or not. I dont think this is the game your looking for to relieve boredom. You may want to try WoW.
This is a MMO not a FPS and we are talking about ability delay. With no skill queue or lag compensation, the guy with better ping than you, will do more dps in the same amount of time than someone wtih 200ms.
New MMOs have that system for a reason.
I am not talking about lag spikes/packet loss, or any connectivity issues. I am talking about the fact that the higher your latency, the lower your DPS is, plain and simple. 200ms=30% DPS nerf.
Let me get this straight, you are PVPing with 5 other folks, you want the game to calculate the latency of each player and reduce the throughput of all the players to the lowest common denominator so that they all experience an equal delay in abilities?
No, I want server side ability que. Latency is already disadvantage, no way around that, but there are technologies to fix at least some effects of it without negatively affecting experience of other players, with less latency. That is what ability que is, and that is what some other lag compensation techniques are. That is what I want.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Even with existing technologies, there are disadvantages. For swtor the server is in Ireland. If I fought a stealthy and they initiated then most of the fights it would look like I died in 3 secs. Of course when I play the stealth class it's nowhere as good. So those technologies can only do so much if they don't hinder the others timing at all then it's probably useless. I was probably experiencing rubber banding but swtor devs programmed it to not look like rubber banding.
best option is a more localized server or a private server. I'm against stealing but playing on a server too far away means I can only play the worst part of the game properly, and that's the lvling. It removes the chance to finish the extremely challenging content. Which I was able to do, but I imagine the amount of effort it took me to do it was nowhere as challenging for someone with lower ping. Same thing with pvp in swtor and invisible classes, and I eventually beat a pro after dying too many times but the amount of effort was not rewarding when it's a constant problem.
so there needs to be localization or private servers. They can cross server for other things such as raiding. But for pvp it can't be high ping.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
I live in Texas and played in Russia, yes there was lag a times but still had a lot of fun playing.
Might give a look at something like wtfast I used it while playing over there and it helped a lot.
I have to admit I'm pretty happy about living 120 miles from the servers now.
You can cast next skill before first one finish, that is server queue and help with lag, so even if you have lag your next skill will be casted right after previous skill finnish. Now without server queue for skills you need wait to finish, then press next skill and that is problem.
So with server queue if you don't really have big lag above 300, you will manage to cast next skill during previous skill cast time or global cooldown and skill we be played instantly no matter of your lag. So simple, with server queue for skills:
First skill - LAG - game do first skill, you cast second skill - game do immediately second skill after first - you start third during 2nd....
Without it:
First skill - LAG - game do first skill- LAG - you cast second skill - LAG - game do second skill - LAG - you cast third skill - LAG - game do third skill.....
Ability Que ues are dumb and cheesy game play and yes latency as well as your machine and the TYPE of bandwidth pla ya huge roll in pvp.That si why twitch combat is so tough,you NEED certain ideas to make it at least skillful so that you can over come issues with skill.However if skill is on equal then yes you have literally no chance,then add in aimbotting and you have 0 chance.
There is no good way around it,Unreal was the biggest pvp shooter going and it became so crazy even 15 ping was considered a viable difference.They implemented a zero ping mod but imo it is not good enough and does not fix other issues ,imo it only makes the perfect machine,bandwidth even better.
You just have to deal with it and play only for fun however i realize not much fun always playing against the odds.This is why i detest pvp in my mmorpg's they do not come even remotely close to having good design to make pvp skillful.Playing Unreal i could overcome pings and bandwidth and machine/gpu with skillful playing and map knowledge and prediction and cover,rpg's offer NONE of that.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.