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Does this game feel like an Elder Scrolls Game Now?

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  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member EpicPosts: 6,958
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by JeroKane
     

     You have absolutely no idea what you talk about!

    Age of Conan a massive flop?   Dude! They sold over 800.000 boxes in the first month and pretty much recouped their Investment within the first 2 months lol.

    And then they crashed so hard they merged all their servers down to 3 servers, FUncom's partner company went bankrupt, and they went FTP.

    Good businesses don't SHRINK after launch of a product, they GROW.

     AGAIN! You have absolutely no idea what you talking about!

    Funcom expanded after AoC release. Even when Subscription numbers went down!

    That's why their partner company filed for bankruptcy? ...yeah.

     

     What partner company? What are you talking about?

  • PioneerStewPioneerStew Member Posts: 874
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
     

    Seriously have you played the game, if not go and play it, and if you have play it again.  Then come back here and tell me it is not a tab-targeting hybrid combat system.  It is, that is a fact.  

     

     Maybe it's you who should go and play the game.

    It's not TAB target! I never use the TAB key in ESO. Ever! I direct my attacks with the center cursor.

    Yes it is, it is tab targeting hybrid combat.  That is what it is.  Where is the argument? Press tab, see what happens.  

     I press TAB and it highlights a target... then I direct my center cursor on an another target and happily kill said target.

    Your point is?

    Good I am glad you finally agree.  it is a tab-targeting hybrid combat system.   

     No I do not! You have no Clue what an actual TAB-targeting system is.

    With TAB targeting you are FORCED to TAB a target before you can attack and the moment you unTAB (be it by accident) you will not be able to attack anymore.

    In ESO you "can" TAB to highlight. BIG DIFFERENCE! It doesn't make any difference in combat when you highlight a target or not. It does not add any functionality like in a true TAB targeting system. So it's not even Hybrid, as you still need to Direct your attacks with center cursor! Otherwise I am just hitting air.

    No it is not.  as you said you highlight (target) a mob.  It is not action combat is it?  You do not just aim your skills at your crosshairs, you target a mob.  

    It is tab-targeting hybrid combat.  Dam this is hard work.  

  • SoraksisSoraksis Member UncommonPosts: 294
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    That was never the case in the good MMOs. In all the ones I played, grouping was harder and more involved, so it got more rewards, but if you didn't want to group, you could progress, just not as fast. Which is how it should be, that's basic game design and social engineering.

    There's no evidence to say that people don't like grouping anymore. In fact, most themeparks these days die in record time primarily because there's no social glue in the games keeping people together.

    Out of curiousity; which themepark games have died lately?

    STO, Champions Online, Neverwinter, SWTOR, Rift, AoC, TESO all had their numbers PLUMMET within a month of launch. In several cases it bankrupted partner companies, forcing them to fire staff, merge the servers 3+ times, and go FTP.

    In the case of AoC and SWTOR, the failures were so high profile and well documented that it shocked the industry. 

    Well to be honest all of those games you listed are actually doing very well now and have a strong player base.  So you must mean they have died because they dont have 10 million subs?

     

  • kresa3333kresa3333 Member UncommonPosts: 64

    I think this game still needs alot of work but it seems like the devs aware of that and pushing hard with changes , there is a good chance i will try it eventully f2p or not but atm i think its 2 far from being a worthy elder scroll title but its on the right track and thats a good thing!

  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member EpicPosts: 6,958
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
     

    Seriously have you played the game, if not go and play it, and if you have play it again.  Then come back here and tell me it is not a tab-targeting hybrid combat system.  It is, that is a fact.  

     

     Maybe it's you who should go and play the game.

    It's not TAB target! I never use the TAB key in ESO. Ever! I direct my attacks with the center cursor.

    Yes it is, it is tab targeting hybrid combat.  That is what it is.  Where is the argument? Press tab, see what happens.  

     I press TAB and it highlights a target... then I direct my center cursor on an another target and happily kill said target.

    Your point is?

    Good I am glad you finally agree.  it is a tab-targeting hybrid combat system.   

     No I do not! You have no Clue what an actual TAB-targeting system is.

    With TAB targeting you are FORCED to TAB a target before you can attack and the moment you unTAB (be it by accident) you will not be able to attack anymore.

    In ESO you "can" TAB to highlight. BIG DIFFERENCE! It doesn't make any difference in combat when you highlight a target or not. It does not add any functionality like in a true TAB targeting system. So it's not even Hybrid, as you still need to Direct your attacks with center cursor! Otherwise I am just hitting air.

    No it is not.  as you said you highlight (target) a mob.  It is not action combat is it?  You do not just aim your skills at your crosshairs, you target a mob.  

    It is tab-targeting hybrid combat.  Dam this is hard work.  

     All my melee skills miss the target if I don't have it dead center in my cross hair! Target highlighted or not!

    That's why I never use it.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,892
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by PioneerStew

    I dislike people saying that they could not make an mmo game with Skyrim mechanics.  They COULD, but at an initial feasibility meeting they chose not to in favour of making a generic mmo with an ES skin.  

    They could have made it open world, sandboxy, classless, skill driven; they could have done all these things but instead they chucked everything that an ES game is out of the window and just made some tedious crap unworthy of the title.  

    The few remaining white knights need to stop pretending that these mechanics are unobtainable in an mmo, they simply are.  

     Maybe you should actually try ESO first, before making baseless assumptions based on other trolls.

    I played Skyrim extensively. ESO does have a lot of Skyrim's mechanics! It very much feels like Skyrim. UI, character, combat, etc.

    huh.

    I have 1046+ hours in Skyrim (and climbing) and I don't feel they that are similar.

    Skyrim combat is "heavier", ESO's feels a bit lighter, There are areas where one can just "go" and eventually find things that can lead to quite a lot of dungeon/cave/ruin delving. ESO doesn't have that. When you wander/explore you are more apt to find quests or very quick dungeon areas that are essentially circles.

     

     

    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • PioneerStewPioneerStew Member Posts: 874
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
     

    Seriously have you played the game, if not go and play it, and if you have play it again.  Then come back here and tell me it is not a tab-targeting hybrid combat system.  It is, that is a fact.  

     

     Maybe it's you who should go and play the game.

    It's not TAB target! I never use the TAB key in ESO. Ever! I direct my attacks with the center cursor.

    Yes it is, it is tab targeting hybrid combat.  That is what it is.  Where is the argument? Press tab, see what happens.  

     I press TAB and it highlights a target... then I direct my center cursor on an another target and happily kill said target.

    Your point is?

    Good I am glad you finally agree.  it is a tab-targeting hybrid combat system.   

     No I do not! You have no Clue what an actual TAB-targeting system is.

    With TAB targeting you are FORCED to TAB a target before you can attack and the moment you unTAB (be it by accident) you will not be able to attack anymore.

    In ESO you "can" TAB to highlight. BIG DIFFERENCE! It doesn't make any difference in combat when you highlight a target or not. It does not add any functionality like in a true TAB targeting system. So it's not even Hybrid, as you still need to Direct your attacks with center cursor! Otherwise I am just hitting air.

    No it is not.  as you said you highlight (target) a mob.  It is not action combat is it?  You do not just aim your skills at your crosshairs, you target a mob.  

    It is tab-targeting hybrid combat.  Dam this is hard work.  

     All my melee skills miss the target if I don't have it dead center in my cross hair! Target highlighted or not!

    That's why I never use it.

    Yes, and if I face the wrong way in wow I don't hit anything either.  

    Look, it simply is tab-targeting hybrid combat.  The game highlights your mobs for you, you can use tab to target them.  It is hybrid because it allows free movement and some action qualities.  

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Out of curiousity; which themepark games have died lately?

    Well, there is Vanguard to mention one (probably the latest) and few seems to feel pretty sick, but few do die the first 10 years after release.

    But he do have a point, MMOs are not doing as well now as a few years back and it is very well possible that it is due to people tiring of the way most of them are (it could also be because they are more out now).

     

     

    There we have it in a nutshell. The favorite theory of the mmorpg.com "advanced" (lol) MMO players: "MMO... she ain't what she used to be!"... what a pile of crap.

     

    "MMO's are not doing as well now as they used to be"

     

    Really? Every reliable industry statistic I've seen shows a steady growth of the player base. Players are just simply more spread out because there are many more MMOs live than ever before... and that's all there is to it.

     

    And if you're referring to people leaving MMOs shortly after launch in greater numbers than they used to as your "proof" of them tiring... try again. They're leaving quicker than before for the very same reason: there are many more MMOs new and newish to try out all the time. They would have done pretty well the same thing in 1999 if there had been 500 MMOs to choose from instead of 3 back then.

     

    I know several people who were playing ESO in April, went to Wildstar when it launched, are now done with that too and are playing the "F2P" (up to $160 worth of F2P goodness for non-weekend beta lol) Archeage... they'll probably tire of that just as quickly... here's a hint: it's their playing habits, not the game - no matter how often they try to justify their behavior in forums by pointing at flaws as the reason why they are content locust. But we all know what they're doing, don't we? They're just following the hype train 'cause that's where the cutting edge of "advanced MMOers" are playing image

     

    It's silly to try to draw general conclusions about the state of the MMO industry based on the very predictable EMO posts in these forums about why MMOs, life and everything suck - it's this place, man... NOT reality.

    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • AztecAztec Member UncommonPosts: 101
    Originally posted by Randayn

    I think there is great confusion as to what Elder Scrolls games offered and involved.  Many of the same features are in ESO:

     

    3.  Classes - This is very different, but for very good reason.  Take Darkfall for example.  It's initial iteration allowed anyone to be anything they wanted...so everyone chose the handful of preferred skills and used them...Even DF realized that they needed some control over structure of skills.  ESO does this with about as much freedom as possible with an MMO.

    This is exactly what kills the ES feeling the most.  There should be NO classes or classes just for artificial reasons like all other ES games. The only thing you should have to pick that is even remotely close to a class is your race. The race should have racial abilities. After race you should be able to choose whatever skills you damn well please @ anytime. Using a fireball spell and now you need a 2h hammer, just change weapons. Your skills should get better with actual use. ESO does not have this basic, fundamental ES idea down pat. It is the most important one to get right. It matters not to me why they left it out. They did and now they and everyone else has to suffer another boring, typical MMO. Well, not this gamer. I do not want to hear the excuses for failure anymore. I just simply move on. Zenimax has made effort to try to fix their blunders that is why I came back for a progress report. Looks like they still don't get it.

  • cronius77cronius77 Member UncommonPosts: 1,652

    davisflight you and others here are WAY to jaded and need to seriously stop looking at this game like DAOC 2 or skyrim. This game to date already has more in it than any other themepark released just about. There is grouping content to the point that people cry daily to release more solo end game content. By the end of this year this game will have a justice system a spellcraft system and a darkness falls/land of the dead style pvp dungeon thats huge. Name any other games out there that did a justice system thats a themepark or a manipulate your spells line? 

    Not to mention name a game other than DAOC that has the pvp system like cyrodiil has for pvp even with the gross imbalance of ranged. Hell I was dueling in cyrodiil last night as a resto templar and got my butt handed to me by a skilled sword and board templar which NEVER happens. This game some of the best pvp found to date unless you are into that ganking low levels taking their stuff garbage pvp in other games or that stun fest in wow or rift.

    I watch threads like this daily here, reading so much bullshit just made up to prove a point with no valid logic behind it. There isnt a game out there now that released with this much content and things to do to date less than 6 months old than ESO. Not to mention all you used to hear was how blah blah guild wars 2 and rift had the BEST dev teams here because they released content once a month yet the content sucked and was small. So far every single patch to ESO has added large sets of features and fixes based on the community. Just look at the champion system and new vet system thats directly from player feedback.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Originally posted by Aztec
    Originally posted by Randayn

    I think there is great confusion as to what Elder Scrolls games offered and involved.  Many of the same features are in ESO:

     

    3.  Classes - This is very different, but for very good reason.  Take Darkfall for example.  It's initial iteration allowed anyone to be anything they wanted...so everyone chose the handful of preferred skills and used them...Even DF realized that they needed some control over structure of skills.  ESO does this with about as much freedom as possible with an MMO.

    This is exactly what kills the ES feeling the most.  There should be NO classes or classes just for artificial reasons like all other ES games. The only thing you should have to pick that is even remotely close to a class is your race. The race should have racial abilities. After race you should be able to choose whatever skills you damn well please @ anytime. Using a fireball spell and now you need a 2h hammer, just change weapons. Your skills should get better with actual use. ESO does not have this basic, fundamental ES idea down pat. It is the most important one to get right. It matters not to me why they left it out. They did and now they and everyone else has to suffer another boring, typical MMO. Well, not this gamer. I do not want to hear the excuses for failure anymore. I just simply move on. Zenimax has made effort to try to fix their blunders that is why I came back for a progress report. Looks like they still don't get it.

    Yes. Someone certainly doesn't "get it"... way to dismiss what happens in real life with the pie in the sky open skill systems when they're available in MMOs: people don't like to call the flavor of the month build in sandboxes a "class" 'cause that's a heresy... but what do you call it when 75% of players use the same exact thing? A "build"... yeah... much better than games that have classes lol.

     

    PS... Skyrim is the only ES game without class templates. In the early days of ES they were actually much more than just templates too: e.g. a "sorcerer" in Arena did not regenerate Magicka - they had to absorb it from spells cast at them or use potions - in return they got double the max magicka pool. That, was a class feature you could not freely choose your way into.

    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member EpicPosts: 6,958
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Aztec
    Originally posted by Randayn

    I think there is great confusion as to what Elder Scrolls games offered and involved.  Many of the same features are in ESO:

     

    3.  Classes - This is very different, but for very good reason.  Take Darkfall for example.  It's initial iteration allowed anyone to be anything they wanted...so everyone chose the handful of preferred skills and used them...Even DF realized that they needed some control over structure of skills.  ESO does this with about as much freedom as possible with an MMO.

    This is exactly what kills the ES feeling the most.  There should be NO classes or classes just for artificial reasons like all other ES games. The only thing you should have to pick that is even remotely close to a class is your race. The race should have racial abilities. After race you should be able to choose whatever skills you damn well please @ anytime. Using a fireball spell and now you need a 2h hammer, just change weapons. Your skills should get better with actual use. ESO does not have this basic, fundamental ES idea down pat. It is the most important one to get right. It matters not to me why they left it out. They did and now they and everyone else has to suffer another boring, typical MMO. Well, not this gamer. I do not want to hear the excuses for failure anymore. I just simply move on. Zenimax has made effort to try to fix their blunders that is why I came back for a progress report. Looks like they still don't get it.

    Yes. Someone certainly doesn't "get it"... way to dismiss what happens in real life with the pie in the sky open skill systems when they're available in MMOs: people don't like to call the flavor of the month build in sandboxes a "class" 'cause that's a heresy... but what do you call it when 75% of players use the same exact thing? A "build"... yeah... much better than games that have classes lol.

     

    PS... Skyrim is the only ES game without class templates. In the early days of ES they were actually much more than just templates too: e.g. a "sorcerer" in Arena did not regenerate Magicka - they had to absorb it from spells cast at them or use potions - in return they got double the max magicka pool. That, was a class feature you could not freely choose your way into.

     In Skyrim you didnt had that much freedom either, because if you went the Magic route, you have to invest heavily in Magicka and when you went the melee route you heavily invest in Health/stamina. Also spending skill Points in specific skill trees.

    So you basically still specialized yourself in a specific role. Just better disguised.

    Plus, on much request by many players, the devs wanted to add Three faction PVP in ESO.

    And in such, the open class/skill system of Skyrim had to go straight out of the window and the devs had to compromise on the system we have now.

    As an open system like Skyrim is a total nightmare to Balance for PVP! Not to mention to create group content around!

    It's absolutely fantastic in a Single player setting and if someone wants to create FOTM builds to steamroll all content, then it's their Choice.

    In an MMORPG setting this is not possible. Especially when you also have PVP to deal with. Unless you design a strickly seperate PVP skill system. But this is twice as expensive to develop and twice as expensive to maintain and thus a huge Financial risk. A risk sadly no Company is willing to take in todays economic climate.

    And the compromise they did is still a great system that gives you a hell lot of freedom in class / skill customisation. A hell lot more than in the traditional themepark class systems, where you are simply locked into a single role!

  • RandaynRandayn Member UncommonPosts: 904
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
     

    Seriously have you played the game, if not go and play it, and if you have play it again.  Then come back here and tell me it is not a tab-targeting hybrid combat system.  It is, that is a fact.  

     

     Maybe it's you who should go and play the game.

    It's not TAB target! I never use the TAB key in ESO. Ever! I direct my attacks with the center cursor.

    Yes it is, it is tab targeting hybrid combat.  That is what it is.  Where is the argument? Press tab, see what happens.  

     I press TAB and it highlights a target... then I direct my center cursor on an another target and happily kill said target.

    Your point is?

    Good I am glad you finally agree.  it is a tab-targeting hybrid combat system.   

     No I do not! You have no Clue what an actual TAB-targeting system is.

    With TAB targeting you are FORCED to TAB a target before you can attack and the moment you unTAB (be it by accident) you will not be able to attack anymore.

    In ESO you "can" TAB to highlight. BIG DIFFERENCE! It doesn't make any difference in combat when you highlight a target or not. It does not add any functionality like in a true TAB targeting system. So it's not even Hybrid, as you still need to Direct your attacks with center cursor! Otherwise I am just hitting air.

    I smell troll....everyone that has played ESO knows that it is most certainly not tab target...on a side note, I dont have a problem with tab target, but ESO is most certainly not tab target....you try to play that way and you'll die

    image
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Member CommonPosts: 2,556
    Originally posted by Soraksis
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    That was never the case in the good MMOs. In all the ones I played, grouping was harder and more involved, so it got more rewards, but if you didn't want to group, you could progress, just not as fast. Which is how it should be, that's basic game design and social engineering.

    There's no evidence to say that people don't like grouping anymore. In fact, most themeparks these days die in record time primarily because there's no social glue in the games keeping people together.

    Out of curiousity; which themepark games have died lately?

    STO, Champions Online, Neverwinter, SWTOR, Rift, AoC, TESO all had their numbers PLUMMET within a month of launch. In several cases it bankrupted partner companies, forcing them to fire staff, merge the servers 3+ times, and go FTP.

    In the case of AoC and SWTOR, the failures were so high profile and well documented that it shocked the industry. 

    Well to be honest all of those games you listed are actually doing very well now and have a strong player base.  So you must mean they have died because they dont have 10 million subs?

     

    AoC has been down to 3 servers for 3 years. I wouldn't call that doing well.

    They've found their niches, to be sure, just their niches are extremely tiny compared to the budget the games originally had. Some of them had to axe all their employees just to turn a profit (SWTOR).

    They "died" because they had an advertisement budget twice the size of their development budget, and came out of the gate looking to be WoW killers, and now have less subs than pre 2004 MMOs.

  • RandaynRandayn Member UncommonPosts: 904
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Soraksis
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    That was never the case in the good MMOs. In all the ones I played, grouping was harder and more involved, so it got more rewards, but if you didn't want to group, you could progress, just not as fast. Which is how it should be, that's basic game design and social engineering.

    There's no evidence to say that people don't like grouping anymore. In fact, most themeparks these days die in record time primarily because there's no social glue in the games keeping people together.

    Out of curiousity; which themepark games have died lately?

    STO, Champions Online, Neverwinter, SWTOR, Rift, AoC, TESO all had their numbers PLUMMET within a month of launch. In several cases it bankrupted partner companies, forcing them to fire staff, merge the servers 3+ times, and go FTP.

    In the case of AoC and SWTOR, the failures were so high profile and well documented that it shocked the industry. 

    Well to be honest all of those games you listed are actually doing very well now and have a strong player base.  So you must mean they have died because they dont have 10 million subs?

     

    AoC has been down to 3 servers for 3 years. I wouldn't call that doing well.

    They've found their niches, to be sure, just their niches are extremely tiny compared to the budget the games originally had. Some of them had to axe all their employees just to turn a profit (SWTOR).

    They "died" because they had an advertisement budget twice the size of their development budget, and came out of the gate looking to be WoW killers, and now have less subs than pre 2004 MMOs.

    AoC was made by Funcom who has always been a small company.  Also, Up until about 2 years ago, if you went on AoC you'd immediately see about 20 different groups looking for classes to come to their raids.  It wasn't dead and it still isnt.  Im sure Funcom made their money back and way more.  Was AoC WoW?  nope and never meant to be...it was rated M and was never meant to bring in young audiences so from the start it was niche, but made good money being that.

    image
  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member EpicPosts: 6,958
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Soraksis
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    That was never the case in the good MMOs. In all the ones I played, grouping was harder and more involved, so it got more rewards, but if you didn't want to group, you could progress, just not as fast. Which is how it should be, that's basic game design and social engineering.

    There's no evidence to say that people don't like grouping anymore. In fact, most themeparks these days die in record time primarily because there's no social glue in the games keeping people together.

    Out of curiousity; which themepark games have died lately?

    STO, Champions Online, Neverwinter, SWTOR, Rift, AoC, TESO all had their numbers PLUMMET within a month of launch. In several cases it bankrupted partner companies, forcing them to fire staff, merge the servers 3+ times, and go FTP.

    In the case of AoC and SWTOR, the failures were so high profile and well documented that it shocked the industry. 

    Well to be honest all of those games you listed are actually doing very well now and have a strong player base.  So you must mean they have died because they dont have 10 million subs?

     

    AoC has been down to 3 servers for 3 years. I wouldn't call that doing well.

    They've found their niches, to be sure, just their niches are extremely tiny compared to the budget the games originally had. Some of them had to axe all their employees just to turn a profit (SWTOR).

    They "died" because they had an advertisement budget twice the size of their development budget, and came out of the gate looking to be WoW killers, and now have less subs than pre 2004 MMOs.

    AoC was made by Funcom who has always been a small company.  Also, Up until about 2 years ago, if you went on AoC you'd immediately see about 20 different groups looking for classes to come to their raids.  It wasn't dead and it still isnt.  Im sure Funcom made their money back and way more.  Was AoC WoW?  nope and never meant to be...it was rated M and was never meant to bring in young audiences so from the start it was niche, but made good money being that.

     The same With TSW. Always meant to be a niche and now it's doing well with it's Freemium hybrid model.

    I still play that game time to time and every time I login there are people everywhere.

    There is no reasoning with that guy. He just keeps pulling numbers and so called facts out of his "rear end". Making a fool of himself.

  • AztecAztec Member UncommonPosts: 101
    Originally posted by JeroKane

    As an open system like Skyrim is a total nightmare to Balance for PVP! Not to mention to create group content around!

    It's absolutely fantastic in a Single player setting and if someone wants to create FOTM builds to steamroll all content, then it's their Choice.

    In an MMORPG setting this is not possible. Especially when you also have PVP to deal with. Unless you design a strickly seperate PVP skill system. But this is twice as expensive to develop and twice as expensive to maintain and thus a huge Financial risk. A risk sadly no Company is willing to take in todays economic climate.

    And the compromise they did is still a great system that gives you a hell lot of freedom in class / skill customisation. A hell lot more than in the traditional themepark class systems, where you are simply locked into a single role!

    Asherons Call is a MMORPG and it has a good PVP and PVE system that is not seperate and it has no classes just skills to choose from. It can be done and has been done well. There is good group content. AC STARTED IN 1999 and is still being paid to play. They have many skills to choose from that are all pretty cool so many people have diverse skill sets. Not everyone is the same. Actually it is very hard to find people with identical skill sets. Yes it is an old game but your argument that it is not possible just is not true. One could argue it is hard to do. No balance is needed in a true classes system or pure skill based system. We all find our own balance.

  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member EpicPosts: 6,958
    Originally posted by Aztec
    Originally posted by JeroKane

    As an open system like Skyrim is a total nightmare to Balance for PVP! Not to mention to create group content around!

    It's absolutely fantastic in a Single player setting and if someone wants to create FOTM builds to steamroll all content, then it's their Choice.

    In an MMORPG setting this is not possible. Especially when you also have PVP to deal with. Unless you design a strickly seperate PVP skill system. But this is twice as expensive to develop and twice as expensive to maintain and thus a huge Financial risk. A risk sadly no Company is willing to take in todays economic climate.

    And the compromise they did is still a great system that gives you a hell lot of freedom in class / skill customisation. A hell lot more than in the traditional themepark class systems, where you are simply locked into a single role!

    Asherons Call is a MMORPG and it has a good PVP and PVE system that is not seperate and it has no classes just skills to choose from. It can be done and has been done well. There is good group content. AC STARTED IN 1999 and is still being paid to play. They have many skills to choose from that are all pretty cool so many people have diverse skill sets. Not everyone is the same. Actually it is very hard to find people with identical skill sets. Yes it is an old game but your argument that it is not possible just is not true. One could argue it is hard to do. No balance is needed in a true classes system or pure skill based system. We all find our own balance.

     Gamers were a different kind of breed back then. Everything was a niche still and Broadband internet was still in it's infancy.

    Sure you had some idiots and some hackers here and there. But it wasn't as bad as now, now it's mainstream. Back then the communities in MMO's were small and policing itself as result.

    If Asherons Call would release today, it would fall flat on it's face, overrun by hackers and cheaters and tons of People creating FOTM builds to grief others. Giving the devs a super headache and a very hard time trying to balance all the mess that comes with an open skill system.

    You just can't compare communities back then with today. Things have changed for the worse. Gaming communities are not what they used to be anymore.

     PS. Don't get me wrong! I would love to see a sandbox MMO again With open skill system, but then completely without any form of PVP.  As it's just otherwise not possible in todays gaming climate.

    There are now just too many A-holes on the internet that lack any form of social skills, who should be locked up in a nut house, instead of let loose in the world. It's just a sad fact. :(

  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495
    Originally posted by Aztec
    Originally posted by Randayn

    I think there is great confusion as to what Elder Scrolls games offered and involved.  Many of the same features are in ESO:

     

    3.  Classes - This is very different, but for very good reason.  Take Darkfall for example.  It's initial iteration allowed anyone to be anything they wanted...so everyone chose the handful of preferred skills and used them...Even DF realized that they needed some control over structure of skills.  ESO does this with about as much freedom as possible with an MMO.

    This is exactly what kills the ES feeling the most.  There should be NO classes or classes just for artificial reasons like all other ES games. The only thing you should have to pick that is even remotely close to a class is your race. The race should have racial abilities. After race you should be able to choose whatever skills you damn well please @ anytime. Using a fireball spell and now you need a 2h hammer, just change weapons. Your skills should get better with actual use. ESO does not have this basic, fundamental ES idea down pat. It is the most important one to get right. It matters not to me why they left it out. They did and now they and everyone else has to suffer another boring, typical MMO. Well, not this gamer. I do not want to hear the excuses for failure anymore. I just simply move on. Zenimax has made effort to try to fix their blunders that is why I came back for a progress report. Looks like they still don't get it.

    Not sure if you played ESO to be honost. I mean I got a 2h Sorcerer. You develop more skills with use of what you are handleing. At level 15 you can specialize in 2 different weapons. But you can still change to using another weapon if you want to only thing if never used that weapon use will start at level one and develops overtime by use. If you want you can choose the traditional path of weapon use based on your class or choose not go the classic route and create the character you want. But doing so you have to make sure to counter certain side effects based on your racial stats which can be done with potions/runes/enchantments etc..

    Edit: On topic: In beta the game actually suprised me being a elder scrolls online game. Wasn't expecting that fibe. Many atleast vocal seem to disagree/

  • RandaynRandayn Member UncommonPosts: 904
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Soraksis
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    That was never the case in the good MMOs. In all the ones I played, grouping was harder and more involved, so it got more rewards, but if you didn't want to group, you could progress, just not as fast. Which is how it should be, that's basic game design and social engineering.

    There's no evidence to say that people don't like grouping anymore. In fact, most themeparks these days die in record time primarily because there's no social glue in the games keeping people together.

    Out of curiousity; which themepark games have died lately?

    STO, Champions Online, Neverwinter, SWTOR, Rift, AoC, TESO all had their numbers PLUMMET within a month of launch. In several cases it bankrupted partner companies, forcing them to fire staff, merge the servers 3+ times, and go FTP.

    In the case of AoC and SWTOR, the failures were so high profile and well documented that it shocked the industry. 

    Well to be honest all of those games you listed are actually doing very well now and have a strong player base.  So you must mean they have died because they dont have 10 million subs?

     

    AoC has been down to 3 servers for 3 years. I wouldn't call that doing well.

    They've found their niches, to be sure, just their niches are extremely tiny compared to the budget the games originally had. Some of them had to axe all their employees just to turn a profit (SWTOR).

    They "died" because they had an advertisement budget twice the size of their development budget, and came out of the gate looking to be WoW killers, and now have less subs than pre 2004 MMOs.

    AoC was made by Funcom who has always been a small company.  Also, Up until about 2 years ago, if you went on AoC you'd immediately see about 20 different groups looking for classes to come to their raids.  It wasn't dead and it still isnt.  Im sure Funcom made their money back and way more.  Was AoC WoW?  nope and never meant to be...it was rated M and was never meant to bring in young audiences so from the start it was niche, but made good money being that.

     The same With TSW. Always meant to be a niche and now it's doing well with it's Freemium hybrid model.

    I still play that game time to time and every time I login there are people everywhere.

    There is no reasoning with that guy. He just keeps pulling numbers and so called facts out of his "rear end". Making a fool of himself.

    Love TSW...I gotta log back in and check it out again

    image
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by Aztec
    Originally posted by JeroKane

    As an open system like Skyrim is a total nightmare to Balance for PVP! Not to mention to create group content around!

    It's absolutely fantastic in a Single player setting and if someone wants to create FOTM builds to steamroll all content, then it's their Choice.

    In an MMORPG setting this is not possible. Especially when you also have PVP to deal with. Unless you design a strickly seperate PVP skill system. But this is twice as expensive to develop and twice as expensive to maintain and thus a huge Financial risk. A risk sadly no Company is willing to take in todays economic climate.

    And the compromise they did is still a great system that gives you a hell lot of freedom in class / skill customisation. A hell lot more than in the traditional themepark class systems, where you are simply locked into a single role!

    Asherons Call is a MMORPG and it has a good PVP and PVE system that is not seperate and it has no classes just skills to choose from. It can be done and has been done well. There is good group content. AC STARTED IN 1999 and is still being paid to play. They have many skills to choose from that are all pretty cool so many people have diverse skill sets. Not everyone is the same. Actually it is very hard to find people with identical skill sets. Yes it is an old game but your argument that it is not possible just is not true. One could argue it is hard to do. No balance is needed in a true classes system or pure skill based system. We all find our own balance.

     Gamers were a different kind of breed back then. Everything was a niche still and Broadband internet was still in it's infancy.

    Sure you had some idiots and some hackers here and there. But it wasn't as bad as now, now it's mainstream. Back then the communities in MMO's were small and policing itself as result.

    If Asherons Call would release today, it would fall flat on it's face, overrun by hackers and cheaters and tons of People creating FOTM builds to grief others. Giving the devs a super headache and a very hard time trying to balance all the mess that comes with an open skill system.

    You just can't compare communities back then with today. Things have changed for the worse. Gaming communities are not what they used to be anymore.

     PS. Don't get me wrong! I would love to see a sandbox MMO again With open skill system, but then completely without any form of PVP.  As it's just otherwise not possible in todays gaming climate.

    There are now just too many A-holes on the internet that lack any form of social skills, who should be locked up in a nut house, instead of let loose in the world. It's just a sad fact. :(

    I played AC at release but I don't have my rose color glasses on. AC also had FOTM builds and items and were nerfed over time as the developers caught wind of them: Unarmed was > than any other melee skills and Life Magic  -- which allowed you to drain mobs you had no business fighting, through walls was also the FOTM. And then. of course, Item Magic, which allowed you to create portals and buff your weapons and armor... so at release and for many months thereafter -  many more months than ESO has even been around, BTW -- Unarmed + Life Magic + Item Magic was the de-facto preferred "class" ... but hey, everyone invented it independently and simultaneously and no one told them to do it :)

     

    And then there was the infamous Hoary Mattekar Robe that was so OP'd they stopped spawning it (although it came back in a lesser nerfed version months later) but allowed anyone who was in on where to get it while it was still dropping, to keep it in its original OP'd glory--- sucks to be you if you didn't get one...

     

    Like I said, rose colored glasses that allow you to see the infinitely better past now that everything has gone to hell :)

    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • AztecAztec Member UncommonPosts: 101
    Originally posted by JeroKane

     Gamers were a different kind of breed back then. Everything was a niche still and Broadband internet was still in it's infancy.

    Sure you had some idiots and some hackers here and there. But it wasn't as bad as now, now it's mainstream. Back then the communities in MMO's were small and policing itself as result.

    If Asherons Call would release today, it would fall flat on it's face, overrun by hackers and cheaters and tons of People creating FOTM builds to grief others. Giving the devs a super headache and a very hard time trying to balance all the mess that comes with an open skill system.

    You just can't compare communities back then with today. Things have changed for the worse. Gaming communities are not what they used to be anymore.

     PS. Don't get me wrong! I would love to see a sandbox MMO again With open skill system, but then completely without any form of PVP.  As it's just otherwise not possible in todays gaming climate.

    There are now just too many A-holes on the internet that lack any form of social skills, who should be locked up in a nut house, instead of let loose in the world. It's just a sad fact. :(

    Hmm I did not know that hacking was this much of an issue. Could not some game mechanics fix some of the griefing? It has been a long time since I played AC but to PVP you had to be part of a guild that declared war on another guild. In other words, you could only attack or be attacked by the guild one was at war with. You could go to your guild leader and have him call off the war if one was done fighting a particular group. Also AC is still going strong so how do they handle hacking now? It must not be that much of an issue for them?

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by Aztec
    Originally posted by JeroKane

    As an open system like Skyrim is a total nightmare to Balance for PVP! Not to mention to create group content around!

    It's absolutely fantastic in a Single player setting and if someone wants to create FOTM builds to steamroll all content, then it's their Choice.

    In an MMORPG setting this is not possible. Especially when you also have PVP to deal with. Unless you design a strickly seperate PVP skill system. But this is twice as expensive to develop and twice as expensive to maintain and thus a huge Financial risk. A risk sadly no Company is willing to take in todays economic climate.

    And the compromise they did is still a great system that gives you a hell lot of freedom in class / skill customisation. A hell lot more than in the traditional themepark class systems, where you are simply locked into a single role!

    Asherons Call is a MMORPG and it has a good PVP and PVE system that is not seperate and it has no classes just skills to choose from. It can be done and has been done well. There is good group content. AC STARTED IN 1999 and is still being paid to play. They have many skills to choose from that are all pretty cool so many people have diverse skill sets. Not everyone is the same. Actually it is very hard to find people with identical skill sets. Yes it is an old game but your argument that it is not possible just is not true. One could argue it is hard to do. No balance is needed in a true classes system or pure skill based system. We all find our own balance.

     Gamers were a different kind of breed back then. Everything was a niche still and Broadband internet was still in it's infancy.

    Sure you had some idiots and some hackers here and there. But it wasn't as bad as now, now it's mainstream. Back then the communities in MMO's were small and policing itself as result.

    If Asherons Call would release today, it would fall flat on it's face, overrun by hackers and cheaters and tons of People creating FOTM builds to grief others. Giving the devs a super headache and a very hard time trying to balance all the mess that comes with an open skill system.

    You just can't compare communities back then with today. Things have changed for the worse. Gaming communities are not what they used to be anymore.

     PS. Don't get me wrong! I would love to see a sandbox MMO again With open skill system, but then completely without any form of PVP.  As it's just otherwise not possible in todays gaming climate.

    There are now just too many A-holes on the internet that lack any form of social skills, who should be locked up in a nut house, instead of let loose in the world. It's just a sad fact. :(

    Here is the unresolved problem

    Skyrim = the features people want

    Skyrim = hugely successful if not the most successful single player game ever in an era where its not 'nitch'

    Darkfall = contains the features of Skyrim many people want.

     

    why is Darkfall not massively successful? I am not sure but clearly there is something that needs to be explained here that doesnt sound like sillyness

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • AztecAztec Member UncommonPosts: 101
    Originally posted by Iselin

    I played AC at release but I don't have my rose color glasses on. AC also had FOTM builds and items and were nerfed over time as the developers caught wind of them: Unarmed was > than any other melee skills and Life Magic  -- which allowed you to drain mobs you had no business fighting, through walls was also the FOTM. And then. of course, Item Magic, which allowed you to create portals and buff your weapons and armor... so at release and for many months thereafter -  many more months than ESO has even been around, BTW -- Unarmed + Life Magic + Item Magic was the de-facto preferred "class" ... but hey, everyone invented it independently and simultaneously and no one told them to do it :)

     

    And then there was the infamous Hoary Mattekar Robe that was so OP'd they stopped spawning it (although it came back in a lesser nerfed version months later) but allowed anyone who was in on where to get it while it was still dropping, to keep it in its original OP'd glory--- sucks to be you if you didn't get one...

     

    Like I said, rose colored glasses that allow you to see the infinitely better past now that everything has gone to hell :)

    I am not just looking at the good parts of the game and leaving out the negative. I remember all the problems you describe but it was all so much fun was it not? lol I remember smiling and having fun playing that game despite the few problems it had. People attacking through walls, I just shook my head and moved on. They really were just cheating themselves of a rich gaming experience. The big difference is I am NOT having fun playing all these new games. Most of them just suck for lack of a better word. I did have unarmed and item magic but no life magic. I opted for bandaging skill which was actually a way better way to heal yourself quick if you were skilled enough. I did not pick up life magic until about level 76.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by Aztec
    Originally posted by JeroKane

    As an open system like Skyrim is a total nightmare to Balance for PVP! Not to mention to create group content around!

    It's absolutely fantastic in a Single player setting and if someone wants to create FOTM builds to steamroll all content, then it's their Choice.

    In an MMORPG setting this is not possible. Especially when you also have PVP to deal with. Unless you design a strickly seperate PVP skill system. But this is twice as expensive to develop and twice as expensive to maintain and thus a huge Financial risk. A risk sadly no Company is willing to take in todays economic climate.

    And the compromise they did is still a great system that gives you a hell lot of freedom in class / skill customisation. A hell lot more than in the traditional themepark class systems, where you are simply locked into a single role!

    Asherons Call is a MMORPG and it has a good PVP and PVE system that is not seperate and it has no classes just skills to choose from. It can be done and has been done well. There is good group content. AC STARTED IN 1999 and is still being paid to play. They have many skills to choose from that are all pretty cool so many people have diverse skill sets. Not everyone is the same. Actually it is very hard to find people with identical skill sets. Yes it is an old game but your argument that it is not possible just is not true. One could argue it is hard to do. No balance is needed in a true classes system or pure skill based system. We all find our own balance.

     Gamers were a different kind of breed back then. Everything was a niche still and Broadband internet was still in it's infancy.

    Sure you had some idiots and some hackers here and there. But it wasn't as bad as now, now it's mainstream. Back then the communities in MMO's were small and policing itself as result.

    If Asherons Call would release today, it would fall flat on it's face, overrun by hackers and cheaters and tons of People creating FOTM builds to grief others. Giving the devs a super headache and a very hard time trying to balance all the mess that comes with an open skill system.

    You just can't compare communities back then with today. Things have changed for the worse. Gaming communities are not what they used to be anymore.

     PS. Don't get me wrong! I would love to see a sandbox MMO again With open skill system, but then completely without any form of PVP.  As it's just otherwise not possible in todays gaming climate.

    There are now just too many A-holes on the internet that lack any form of social skills, who should be locked up in a nut house, instead of let loose in the world. It's just a sad fact. :(

    Here is the unresolved problem

    Skyrim = the features people want

    Skyrim = hugely successful if not the most successful single player game ever in an era where its not 'nitch'

    Darkfall = contains the features of Skyrim many people want.

     

    why is Darkfall not massively successful? I am not sure but clearly there is something that needs to be explained here that doesnt sound like sillyness

    Spot on.

     

    I've been wondering the same myself for months. Since DF has all the Skyrim sandbox features that ESO is so criticized for not having, why not DF, indeed?

     

    Could it be that there is a disconnect between mmorpg,com forum theoretical MMO design and the reality of what people actually want to play? ... that couldn't be it could it? :)

     

    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

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