SWG was objectively the best MMORPG for people who want to play house, and are too embarrassed to go to Kids 'R Us and buy a real doll house.
Seriously, you should just get over your fears of being judged and try it. The tactile experience just blows anything MMOs have out of the water!
Yeh, MMOs are no longer gearing towards those who want to play house. The key audience is those who want combat.
And nothing but.....
Three words have never said so much. These new generation gamers have infiltrated the MMORPG genre and turned it into just another version of an FPS game. They don't want to quest. They don't want to craft. They don't want to RP. They don't want to PvE. They don't want to play house (build), etc etc.
All they want to do is weeEEEEE .... PeeVeePee!
Way to ruin the MMORPG genre!
Developers share the blame for allowing it to happen.
/greed
You get it reversed. The devs want to expand their market and target action gamers. You really think FPS players give a sh*t about MMOs when they have so many other games to choose from?
MMORPG is ruined because there is not enough people liking it.
SWG was objectively the best MMORPG for people who want to play house, and are too embarrassed to go to Kids 'R Us and buy a real doll house.
Seriously, you should just get over your fears of being judged and try it. The tactile experience just blows anything MMOs have out of the water!
Yeh, MMOs are no longer gearing towards those who want to play house. The key audience is those who want combat.
And nothing but.....
Three words have never said so much. These new generation gamers have infiltrated the MMORPG genre and turned it into just another version of an FPS game. They don't want to quest. They don't want to craft. They don't want to RP. They don't want to PvE. They don't want to play house (build), etc etc.
All they want to do is weeEEEEE .... PeeVeePee!
Way to ruin the MMORPG genre!
Developers share the blame for allowing it to happen.
/greed
You get it reversed. The devs want to expand their market and target action gamers.
Which is why I posted "/greed" at the end of my post.
You really think FPS players give a sh*t about MMOs when they have so many other games to choose from?
Thank you. So how about you go play those and leave the MMORPGs for MMORPG players.
MMORPG is ruined because there is not enough people liking it.
MHMM, I wonder why? I'll answer that for you. Because MMORPGs vaguely resemble an MMORPG game anymore! I used to love MMORPGs but I don't like them anymore either. Why? Because with the exception of a few (Ie., FFXIV) they aren't MMORPGs anymore, they are all hybrids or MMOFPSs.
Originally posted by whisperwynd Mmo's of that time, even the MUD's, were niche at best. Eventually as it grew, it had to change to allow more mainstream coverage. Then as big money could be made from these games, everyone and their mothers got on the bandwagon and spewed forth a multitude of online games. Time changes everything, even our perspective, and with each generation showing what it prefers(by playing them), the industry (just like any other industry out there) will change in accordance. We can either adapt and enjoy what's new or remain recalcitrant and forever reliving the 'Glory days' in our minds, factual or not.
I guess I choose to not bend to inferior games. I'm an old curmudgeon, after all
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
If you like those games back in 2003 there's no reason you can't play a game like them. Almost every game from back then has an "emu", short for emulator, you can play. There was an emu for old school EQ for example, I think it was called Project 1999 although I'm not sure if they ever got off the ground.
I think there are emus for UO too.
The licensing would be questionable but the game companies seem to be leaving these emu's alone.
Pre-Cu was an open universe that allowed one to adopt a role and play within a (SW)Galaxy, experiment, and evolve a character over time and experience. Too often with MMOs today, I hear or read people asking "What is the endgame?". What is there for me once I power grind and max out my player's level? The endgame of SWG changed after the CU, from the initial Imps vs Rebs to one of individual character building. I used to enjoy the weekend pre CU raids on neighboring towns and cities that were opposing factions, vying to gain control of the planet overall. Post CU was all about individual "builds" to allow one to farm and solo quests and creatures that were initially designed to be group endeavors. This, to me, was when the game failed. It listened to the too vocal minority that felt that they deserved to be more l33t than thou. WoW is guilty of this now, but has adapted by awarding new Tiered Loot Sets and new content. SWG gave us Jedi. And made it damn hard to get one. And then allowed 'perma-death" to the character if the user misused their character. I loved the idea of Perma-death for the Jedi-achievement because it made the few ultimate character class playersin the game more vunerable than a lvl 1 nerf-herding noob. Our player-city had 2 of them, and we guarded and defended them more jellously than any uber-tier loot, from many bad-intentioned bounty hunters. Perma-death made those who achieved Jedi value their grind and respect their role in the game. Those who first played the character well stayed hidden, adding to the fun of the game. Most didn't, challenging others to duels or trolling their uber-tanks through the game, and eventually meeting perma-death and losing their Jedi character. Oh, then the uproar! Why should I lose a character that I worked so hard to get (and was given an extra character slot for!)? I am l33t and entitled!!! And so SOE did away with permadeath, allowing the l33t wankers to harsh on any one and brought forth the CU to allow everyone to build a soloing monster. SOE's main problem was not sticking to their guns and keeping the game as it was but instead caving to the vocal minority that played for an endgame, when SWG wasn't designed to have an endgame.
Originally posted by Dauzqul Originally posted by MMOExposedOriginally posted by Greymantle4I feel your pain. I have not found a home since 2005 when the NGE hit and I left SWG for good.
Why can't you all move on? I moved on to GW2 and Rift and Champions of Regnum.that was a big jump from what I originally played. Please explain to us, for the non SWG players, what exactly you all want in a MMO, that wouldn't also be a dent in a developer's pocket to make!i am listening ...Many are upset because it seems that most AAA MMOs spend most of their resources on advertising.
If a product is extremely useful or entertaining, it won't need loads of costly ads / commercials / cgi videos.
Man you are reaching. SWG was my favorite mmorpg by a country mile. But there are mmos I have played since then that I felt did a better job in a lot of categories than SWG.
Originally posted by Greymantle4 I feel your pain. I have not found a home since 2005 when the NGE hit and I left SWG for good.
Why can't you all move on? I moved on to GW2 and Rift and Champions of Regnum.
that was a big jump from what I originally played.
Please explain to us, for the non SWG players, what exactly you all want in a MMO, that wouldn't also be a dent in a developer's pocket to make!
i am listening ...
Many are upset because it seems that most AAA MMOs spend most of their resources on advertising.
If a product is extremely useful or entertaining, it won't need loads of costly ads / commercials / cgi videos.
This is just wrong. It's unfortunate, but true. Advertising has been a large part of game development for a very long time. There are rare instances where advertising by word of mouth works very well, but in those cases the game development team and budget is tiny. Sometimes just a single individual. In the vast majority of cases, the advertising is as much a necessary part of selling the game as is getting the bugs out.
For reference, since SWG has come up in the conversation, here's a television commercial for SWG, uploaded to Youtube in 2006.
I mean... yeah there was some class imbalance. Commando+TerasKasi +Carbineer...
The point is balance is an issue in EVERY SINGLE GAME.
Bugs are an issue in EVERY SINGLE GAME.
What SWG provided that no other game post itself (except possibly ArcheAge and a couple others now) is an incredibly immersive gaming world to explore and actually live in.
You simply don't get that above sentence any more. Most MMOS are just made to be mediocre games. For my "gaming" and story fix I always play console. For MMOS I always looked for that immersive world-like feel. That is the issue here for us SWG fans.
The Jedi thing was also important...becoming force sensitive. Creating a huge grind even to just become one. All of that reduced the amount of Jedi and that was equally important for immersion in that Star Wars time frame. Now SWTOR is different, that should have everyone running around as Jedi.
The Jedi thing was also important...becoming force sensitive. Creating a huge grind even to just become one. All of that reduced the amount of Jedi and that was equally important for immersion in that Staw Wars time frame. Now SWTOR is different, that should have everyone running around as Jedi.
Letting thousands of people become Jedi in a time period where there were only a handful hiding on outer rim worlds was immersive to SWG fans but no other game world has been ? That doesn't sound like bending the term to fit your meaning of it ?
Adding jedi at all was a huge mmo sell out to the lore but people wanted to become jedi ( at any cost ) so it was ok. If lotro suddenly started letting people become dark riders but attached a huge grind I doubt it would go over well now. It seems however once the game is long gone that would have been a great thing.
I would agree that SWG was a great game .. Bugs and imbalance included. (Pre NGE that is) It was what most mmos forget. Everything in the game was wonderful, you did not have to fight anything if you did not want to, you could simply craft or farm mats or be an entertainer in a cantina.
When it comes the SWTOR it was more like, your adventure in the galaxy ... just like everyone else. There was no real (RPG) factor to it. You had to do what everyone else did that played the same class.
I recall a great moment in SWG where me and another player were on a hill on Tatooine watching the suns come up and I felt like I was part of the world, that it had life. I can not say that of any other game out there now.
I think Developers need to listen to the players in this way. Find out what they are wanting not what the rest of the industry is doing and build on that. Yes the status quoe sells ... but innovation leaves a lasting impression on people and the industry as a whole.
The Jedi thing was also important...becoming force sensitive. Creating a huge grind even to just become one. All of that reduced the amount of Jedi and that was equally important for immersion in that Staw Wars time frame. Now SWTOR is different, that should have everyone running around as Jedi.
Letting thousands of people become Jedi in a time period where there were only a handful hiding on outer rim worlds was immersive to SWG fans but no other game world has been ? That doesn't sound like bending the term to fit your meaning of it ?
Adding jedi at all was a huge mmo sell out to the lore but people wanted to become jedi ( at any cost ) so it was ok. If lotro suddenly started letting people become dark riders but attached a huge grind I doubt it would go over well now. It seems however once the game is long gone that would have been a great thing.
If i could point to one single thing that began SWG's downfall, then it was the introduction of Jedi as a player class, it was something that should never have been, it kicked off the whole 'hologrind' where the game changed, almost overnight into some kind of grindathon for so many people, it was utterly stupid.
The Jedi thing was also important...becoming force sensitive. Creating a huge grind even to just become one. All of that reduced the amount of Jedi and that was equally important for immersion in that Staw Wars time frame. Now SWTOR is different, that should have everyone running around as Jedi.
Letting thousands of people become Jedi in a time period where there were only a handful hiding on outer rim worlds was immersive to SWG fans but no other game world has been ? That doesn't sound like bending the term to fit your meaning of it ?
Adding jedi at all was a huge mmo sell out to the lore but people wanted to become jedi ( at any cost ) so it was ok. If lotro suddenly started letting people become dark riders but attached a huge grind I doubt it would go over well now. It seems however once the game is long gone that would have been a great thing.
No. I said making it a difficult grind to becoming jedi was good. The eventually changed it to make it a starting class which was WAY WAY bad.
No. I said making it a difficult grind to becoming jedi was good. The eventually changed it to make it a starting class which was WAY WAY bad.
I think having a prestige class you have to work for a bit is a cool idea. Maybe not a huge grind (since the typical gamer today is not going to go for that) but how cool would it have been if in SWTOR you earned the right to become a jedi after a long and involved epic story quest which would take you most of the leveling process to complete rather than half the level 10 noobs in the game running around the starter zones swinging light sabers?
No. I said making it a difficult grind to becoming jedi was good. The eventually changed it to make it a starting class which was WAY WAY bad.
I think having a prestige class you have to work for a bit is a cool idea. Maybe not a huge grind (since the typical gamer today is not going to go for that) but how cool would it have been if in SWTOR you earned the right to become a jedi after a long and involved epic story quest which would take you most of the leveling process to complete rather than half the level 10 noobs in the game running around the starter zones swinging light sabers?
Well. In SWTOR there are usually a lot of jedis everywhere. So it's okay to have it be normal that Jedi exhist. SWG was during Darth Vader etc. And Luke/Leia were all NPCs you could meet. It does not make sense for there to be Jedi everywhere.
Still it is a cool thing. Perhaps in SWTOR becoming a MASTER would be this quest? Or perhaps to become the new emperor or on the player-made Jedi Council. Those things would work and could be very fun if they wanted to do things that way.
The Jedi thing was also important...becoming force sensitive. Creating a huge grind even to just become one. All of that reduced the amount of Jedi and that was equally important for immersion in that Staw Wars time frame. Now SWTOR is different, that should have everyone running around as Jedi.
Letting thousands of people become Jedi in a time period where there were only a handful hiding on outer rim worlds was immersive to SWG fans but no other game world has been ? That doesn't sound like bending the term to fit your meaning of it ?
Adding jedi at all was a huge mmo sell out to the lore but people wanted to become jedi ( at any cost ) so it was ok. If lotro suddenly started letting people become dark riders but attached a huge grind I doubt it would go over well now. It seems however once the game is long gone that would have been a great thing.
No. I said making it a difficult grind to becoming jedi was good. The eventually changed it to make it a starting class which was WAY WAY bad.
I guess difficult and tedious is about as subjective as " the best" is. If you think turning everyone away from living in the world to grind away at a shitty job was a good thing I wont argue...or at least don't think I need to.
The Jedi thing was also important...becoming force sensitive. Creating a huge grind even to just become one. All of that reduced the amount of Jedi and that was equally important for immersion in that Staw Wars time frame. Now SWTOR is different, that should have everyone running around as Jedi.
Letting thousands of people become Jedi in a time period where there were only a handful hiding on outer rim worlds was immersive to SWG fans but no other game world has been ? That doesn't sound like bending the term to fit your meaning of it ?
Adding jedi at all was a huge mmo sell out to the lore but people wanted to become jedi ( at any cost ) so it was ok. If lotro suddenly started letting people become dark riders but attached a huge grind I doubt it would go over well now. It seems however once the game is long gone that would have been a great thing.
If i could point to one single thing that began SWG's downfall, then it was the introduction of Jedi as a player class, it was something that should never have been, it kicked off the whole 'hologrind' where the game changed, almost overnight into some kind of grindathon for so many people, it was utterly stupid.
The SWG Jedi Class was IMO one of the single biggest blunders in the history of the genre. The entire concept revolved around SOE believing that very few players would ever complete that grind. Only the most dedicated, hard-core and elite gamers would achieve Jedi status.
SOE was wrong. The class was out of balance and everyone wanted it. To the extent that the entire economy of the game that was balanced around many different classes and play styles all contributing into one environment was in jeopardy.
SWG was a train-wreck waiting to happen. Who knows? Maybe SOE saw the writing on the wall with this one and that's one of the reasons they changed the game.
The Jedi thing was also important...becoming force sensitive. Creating a huge grind even to just become one. All of that reduced the amount of Jedi and that was equally important for immersion in that Staw Wars time frame. Now SWTOR is different, that should have everyone running around as Jedi.
Letting thousands of people become Jedi in a time period where there were only a handful hiding on outer rim worlds was immersive to SWG fans but no other game world has been ? That doesn't sound like bending the term to fit your meaning of it ?
Adding jedi at all was a huge mmo sell out to the lore but people wanted to become jedi ( at any cost ) so it was ok. If lotro suddenly started letting people become dark riders but attached a huge grind I doubt it would go over well now. It seems however once the game is long gone that would have been a great thing.
No. I said making it a difficult grind to becoming jedi was good. The eventually changed it to make it a starting class which was WAY WAY bad.
I guess difficult and tedious is about as subjective as " the best" is. If you think turning everyone away from living in the world to grind away at a shitty job was a good thing I wont argue...or at least don't think I need to.
They could have made it better, but it's definitely better than having everyone start off as a jedi in a star wars world build around the original trilogy. SWTOR is a different story.
Tedium can be an obstacle. It's the easiest obstacle to create. More obstacles is an increased difficulty. To be difficult all you need is something hard to deal with. If you can't deal with tedium, then that tedium is too difficult for you. I mean...I did grind through that and it was a lot of grinding lol.
They could have made it easier (which in this case means less tedious) and capped it at a handful per server, but yes you're going to say "that system sucks" as well.
The Jedi thing was also important...becoming force sensitive. Creating a huge grind even to just become one. All of that reduced the amount of Jedi and that was equally important for immersion in that Staw Wars time frame. Now SWTOR is different, that should have everyone running around as Jedi.
Letting thousands of people become Jedi in a time period where there were only a handful hiding on outer rim worlds was immersive to SWG fans but no other game world has been ? That doesn't sound like bending the term to fit your meaning of it ?
Adding jedi at all was a huge mmo sell out to the lore but people wanted to become jedi ( at any cost ) so it was ok. If lotro suddenly started letting people become dark riders but attached a huge grind I doubt it would go over well now. It seems however once the game is long gone that would have been a great thing.
If i could point to one single thing that began SWG's downfall, then it was the introduction of Jedi as a player class, it was something that should never have been, it kicked off the whole 'hologrind' where the game changed, almost overnight into some kind of grindathon for so many people, it was utterly stupid.
The SWG Jedi Class was IMO one of the single biggest blunders in the history of the genre. The entire concept revolved around SOE believing that very few players would ever complete that grind. Only the most dedicated, hard-core and elite gamers would achieve Jedi status.
SOE was wrong. The class was out of balance and everyone wanted it. To the extent that the entire economy of the game that was balanced around many different classes and play styles all contributing into one environment was in jeopardy.
SWG was a train-wreck waiting to happen. Who knows? Maybe SOE saw the writing on the wall with this one and that's one of the reasons they changed the game.
That's a balance issue and not an ideology issue. The balance is an issue in most MMOS in similar ways. Ideology is often times unrepresented entirely. Ideology is why SWG has such a good fanbase.
My favorite part of SWG is the interactions between classes. You could make a living off crafting and giving buffs in cantinas.
Would the modern player base accept combat downtime like SWG had that enabled the rich interactions? Probably not.
Which is sad. SWG had some increidbly unique designs that I wish persisted in MMOs in some form.
Was SWG flawed as many people are picking apart individual design choices? Yes. However it represents a design philosophy and an experience that is very rare. In modern games player crafting has been replaced by cash shops and everyone has been pushed to the combat grind. Playing better is not about the players you meet and the network you build up nor is it about the strategy but rather its about how many monsters you can kill per minute. I feel like modern MMOs have went the route of diablo with their action combat focused design.
Old school MMOs were about the journey and the destination. Modern MMOs are destination destination destination
The Jedi thing was also important...becoming force sensitive. Creating a huge grind even to just become one. All of that reduced the amount of Jedi and that was equally important for immersion in that Staw Wars time frame. Now SWTOR is different, that should have everyone running around as Jedi.
Letting thousands of people become Jedi in a time period where there were only a handful hiding on outer rim worlds was immersive to SWG fans but no other game world has been ? That doesn't sound like bending the term to fit your meaning of it ?
Adding jedi at all was a huge mmo sell out to the lore but people wanted to become jedi ( at any cost ) so it was ok. If lotro suddenly started letting people become dark riders but attached a huge grind I doubt it would go over well now. It seems however once the game is long gone that would have been a great thing.
If i could point to one single thing that began SWG's downfall, then it was the introduction of Jedi as a player class, it was something that should never have been, it kicked off the whole 'hologrind' where the game changed, almost overnight into some kind of grindathon for so many people, it was utterly stupid.
The SWG Jedi Class was IMO one of the single biggest blunders in the history of the genre. The entire concept revolved around SOE believing that very few players would ever complete that grind. Only the most dedicated, hard-core and elite gamers would achieve Jedi status.
SOE was wrong. The class was out of balance and everyone wanted it. To the extent that the entire economy of the game that was balanced around many different classes and play styles all contributing into one environment was in jeopardy.
SWG was a train-wreck waiting to happen. Who knows? Maybe SOE saw the writing on the wall with this one and that's one of the reasons they changed the game.
They could have introduced "Force Users" and killed two birds with one stone. While the Jedi were nearly extinct, people would be born using the force, just like they always had been. Players could have been force users, but not Jedi. They could have started as a class of Force Users, but they could have also had grinds to find and train with one of the handful of hidden Jedi, who might have been more than happy to train people to fight against the Empire using the force.
Not that it matters much now, but there are all kinds of things they could have done that would have been a bit more balanced, but also in keeping with the lore.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I played a bio-engineer in SWG. Here is a typical day:
15:00 Logged in and collected the resources and products from my factories / resouce gatherers around the world. In SWG you had to set up gatherers and factories at certain locations in the wilderness and start jobs using their interfaces.
15:30 Put the stuff I crafted into my vendor in our town hall. My guild maintained a town where everyone setup their vendor in our town hall. Since we had quite a few vendors we always had a lot of visitors and buyers.
16:00 I was desperately in need of meat (main ingredient for one of my products). Talked to several friends in hunter guilds if they had some to sell, then flew around to buy / collect.
17:00 I was desperately in need of more vegetables. For that I had to setup a few gatherers at a good spot. The quality of veggies you gain at a spot changes over time so you have to go out and explore the world in search of a good spot now and then. This can take anywhere from 5 minutes to several hours.
17:30 Found a good spot and setup the gatherers.
18:00 A chef contacts me and orders some goods he urgently needs for a good price. I reserve the products I am currently crafting for him. Yes crafters actually knew each other on the server and traded a lot with each other.
18:30 Our town is under attack by dirty rebels! I quickly get back and join my guilds troops. We defend our fortress succesfully (We had a lot of imba combat medics ^^).
20:00 Started a few crafting jobs in my factories and logged off.
The only other game that came close to the SWG experience was EVE online. In comparison all other games are sorry excuses for a virtual world. In comparison MMOs have become dumbed down arcade style single-player games with no complexity. Thats just not what I want.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Originally posted by Phry Originally posted by DamonVileOriginally posted by OriousThe Jedi thing was also important...becoming force sensitive. Creating a huge grind even to just become one. All of that reduced the amount of Jedi and that was equally important for immersion in that Staw Wars time frame. Now SWTOR is different, that should have everyone running around as Jedi.
Letting thousands of people become Jedi in a time period where there were only a handful hiding on outer rim worlds was immersive to SWG fans but no other game world has been ? That doesn't sound like bending the term to fit your meaning of it ?Adding jedi at all was a huge mmo sell out to the lore but people wanted to become jedi ( at any cost ) so it was ok. If lotro suddenly started letting people become dark riders but attached a huge grind I doubt it would go over well now. It seems however once the game is long gone that would have been a great thing.If i could point to one single thing that began SWG's downfall, then it was the introduction of Jedi as a player class, it was something that should never have been, it kicked off the whole 'hologrind' where the game changed, almost overnight into some kind of grindathon for so many people, it was utterly stupid.
Yeah most people blame the CU or NGE for the downfall of SWG. But it was actually Publish 9 that basically killed the game.
Comments
You get it reversed. The devs want to expand their market and target action gamers. You really think FPS players give a sh*t about MMOs when they have so many other games to choose from?
MMORPG is ruined because there is not enough people liking it.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
If you like those games back in 2003 there's no reason you can't play a game like them. Almost every game from back then has an "emu", short for emulator, you can play. There was an emu for old school EQ for example, I think it was called Project 1999 although I'm not sure if they ever got off the ground.
I think there are emus for UO too.
The licensing would be questionable but the game companies seem to be leaving these emu's alone.
http://gnomophobia.com
Many are upset because it seems that most AAA MMOs spend most of their resources on advertising.
If a product is extremely useful or entertaining, it won't need loads of costly ads / commercials / cgi videos.
So true!
Pre-Cu was an open universe that allowed one to adopt a role and play within a (SW)Galaxy, experiment, and evolve a character over time and experience. Too often with MMOs today, I hear or read people asking "What is the endgame?". What is there for me once I power grind and max out my player's level? The endgame of SWG changed after the CU, from the initial Imps vs Rebs to one of individual character building. I used to enjoy the weekend pre CU raids on neighboring towns and cities that were opposing factions, vying to gain control of the planet overall. Post CU was all about individual "builds" to allow one to farm and solo quests and creatures that were initially designed to be group endeavors. This, to me, was when the game failed. It listened to the too vocal minority that felt that they deserved to be more l33t than thou. WoW is guilty of this now, but has adapted by awarding new Tiered Loot Sets and new content. SWG gave us Jedi. And made it damn hard to get one. And then allowed 'perma-death" to the character if the user misused their character. I loved the idea of Perma-death for the Jedi-achievement because it made the few ultimate character class playersin the game more vunerable than a lvl 1 nerf-herding noob. Our player-city had 2 of them, and we guarded and defended them more jellously than any uber-tier loot, from many bad-intentioned bounty hunters. Perma-death made those who achieved Jedi value their grind and respect their role in the game. Those who first played the character well stayed hidden, adding to the fun of the game. Most didn't, challenging others to duels or trolling their uber-tanks through the game, and eventually meeting perma-death and losing their Jedi character. Oh, then the uproar! Why should I lose a character that I worked so hard to get (and was given an extra character slot for!)? I am l33t and entitled!!! And so SOE did away with permadeath, allowing the l33t wankers to harsh on any one and brought forth the CU to allow everyone to build a soloing monster. SOE's main problem was not sticking to their guns and keeping the game as it was but instead caving to the vocal minority that played for an endgame, when SWG wasn't designed to have an endgame.
Monkebutt
Master DE/Master Rifleman
Tatooine, Valcyn
Many are upset because it seems that most AAA MMOs spend most of their resources on advertising.
If a product is extremely useful or entertaining, it won't need loads of costly ads / commercials / cgi videos.
Man you are reaching.
SWG was my favorite mmorpg by a country mile. But there are mmos I have played since then that I felt did a better job in a lot of categories than SWG.
This is just wrong. It's unfortunate, but true. Advertising has been a large part of game development for a very long time. There are rare instances where advertising by word of mouth works very well, but in those cases the game development team and budget is tiny. Sometimes just a single individual. In the vast majority of cases, the advertising is as much a necessary part of selling the game as is getting the bugs out.
For reference, since SWG has come up in the conversation, here's a television commercial for SWG, uploaded to Youtube in 2006.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7xozVbW9Jg
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I mean... yeah there was some class imbalance. Commando+TerasKasi +Carbineer...
The point is balance is an issue in EVERY SINGLE GAME.
Bugs are an issue in EVERY SINGLE GAME.
What SWG provided that no other game post itself (except possibly ArcheAge and a couple others now) is an incredibly immersive gaming world to explore and actually live in.
You simply don't get that above sentence any more. Most MMOS are just made to be mediocre games. For my "gaming" and story fix I always play console. For MMOS I always looked for that immersive world-like feel. That is the issue here for us SWG fans.
The Jedi thing was also important...becoming force sensitive. Creating a huge grind even to just become one. All of that reduced the amount of Jedi and that was equally important for immersion in that Star Wars time frame. Now SWTOR is different, that should have everyone running around as Jedi.
Letting thousands of people become Jedi in a time period where there were only a handful hiding on outer rim worlds was immersive to SWG fans but no other game world has been ? That doesn't sound like bending the term to fit your meaning of it ?
Adding jedi at all was a huge mmo sell out to the lore but people wanted to become jedi ( at any cost ) so it was ok. If lotro suddenly started letting people become dark riders but attached a huge grind I doubt it would go over well now. It seems however once the game is long gone that would have been a great thing.
I would agree that SWG was a great game .. Bugs and imbalance included. (Pre NGE that is) It was what most mmos forget. Everything in the game was wonderful, you did not have to fight anything if you did not want to, you could simply craft or farm mats or be an entertainer in a cantina.
When it comes the SWTOR it was more like, your adventure in the galaxy ... just like everyone else. There was no real (RPG) factor to it. You had to do what everyone else did that played the same class.
I recall a great moment in SWG where me and another player were on a hill on Tatooine watching the suns come up and I felt like I was part of the world, that it had life. I can not say that of any other game out there now.
I think Developers need to listen to the players in this way. Find out what they are wanting not what the rest of the industry is doing and build on that. Yes the status quoe sells ... but innovation leaves a lasting impression on people and the industry as a whole.
If i could point to one single thing that began SWG's downfall, then it was the introduction of Jedi as a player class, it was something that should never have been, it kicked off the whole 'hologrind' where the game changed, almost overnight into some kind of grindathon for so many people, it was utterly stupid.
No. I said making it a difficult grind to becoming jedi was good. The eventually changed it to make it a starting class which was WAY WAY bad.
I think having a prestige class you have to work for a bit is a cool idea. Maybe not a huge grind (since the typical gamer today is not going to go for that) but how cool would it have been if in SWTOR you earned the right to become a jedi after a long and involved epic story quest which would take you most of the leveling process to complete rather than half the level 10 noobs in the game running around the starter zones swinging light sabers?
Well. In SWTOR there are usually a lot of jedis everywhere. So it's okay to have it be normal that Jedi exhist. SWG was during Darth Vader etc. And Luke/Leia were all NPCs you could meet. It does not make sense for there to be Jedi everywhere.
Still it is a cool thing. Perhaps in SWTOR becoming a MASTER would be this quest? Or perhaps to become the new emperor or on the player-made Jedi Council. Those things would work and could be very fun if they wanted to do things that way.
I guess difficult and tedious is about as subjective as " the best" is. If you think turning everyone away from living in the world to grind away at a shitty job was a good thing I wont argue...or at least don't think I need to.
The SWG Jedi Class was IMO one of the single biggest blunders in the history of the genre. The entire concept revolved around SOE believing that very few players would ever complete that grind. Only the most dedicated, hard-core and elite gamers would achieve Jedi status.
SOE was wrong. The class was out of balance and everyone wanted it. To the extent that the entire economy of the game that was balanced around many different classes and play styles all contributing into one environment was in jeopardy.
SWG was a train-wreck waiting to happen. Who knows? Maybe SOE saw the writing on the wall with this one and that's one of the reasons they changed the game.
They could have made it better, but it's definitely better than having everyone start off as a jedi in a star wars world build around the original trilogy. SWTOR is a different story.
Tedium can be an obstacle. It's the easiest obstacle to create. More obstacles is an increased difficulty. To be difficult all you need is something hard to deal with. If you can't deal with tedium, then that tedium is too difficult for you. I mean...I did grind through that and it was a lot of grinding lol.
They could have made it easier (which in this case means less tedious) and capped it at a handful per server, but yes you're going to say "that system sucks" as well.
That's a balance issue and not an ideology issue. The balance is an issue in most MMOS in similar ways. Ideology is often times unrepresented entirely. Ideology is why SWG has such a good fanbase.
My favorite part of SWG is the interactions between classes. You could make a living off crafting and giving buffs in cantinas.
Would the modern player base accept combat downtime like SWG had that enabled the rich interactions? Probably not.
Which is sad. SWG had some increidbly unique designs that I wish persisted in MMOs in some form.
Was SWG flawed as many people are picking apart individual design choices? Yes. However it represents a design philosophy and an experience that is very rare. In modern games player crafting has been replaced by cash shops and everyone has been pushed to the combat grind. Playing better is not about the players you meet and the network you build up nor is it about the strategy but rather its about how many monsters you can kill per minute. I feel like modern MMOs have went the route of diablo with their action combat focused design.
Old school MMOs were about the journey and the destination. Modern MMOs are destination destination destination
They could have introduced "Force Users" and killed two birds with one stone. While the Jedi were nearly extinct, people would be born using the force, just like they always had been. Players could have been force users, but not Jedi. They could have started as a class of Force Users, but they could have also had grinds to find and train with one of the handful of hidden Jedi, who might have been more than happy to train people to fight against the Empire using the force.
Not that it matters much now, but there are all kinds of things they could have done that would have been a bit more balanced, but also in keeping with the lore.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I played a bio-engineer in SWG. Here is a typical day:
15:00 Logged in and collected the resources and products from my factories / resouce gatherers around the world. In SWG you had to set up gatherers and factories at certain locations in the wilderness and start jobs using their interfaces.
15:30 Put the stuff I crafted into my vendor in our town hall. My guild maintained a town where everyone setup their vendor in our town hall. Since we had quite a few vendors we always had a lot of visitors and buyers.
16:00 I was desperately in need of meat (main ingredient for one of my products). Talked to several friends in hunter guilds if they had some to sell, then flew around to buy / collect.
17:00 I was desperately in need of more vegetables. For that I had to setup a few gatherers at a good spot. The quality of veggies you gain at a spot changes over time so you have to go out and explore the world in search of a good spot now and then. This can take anywhere from 5 minutes to several hours.
17:30 Found a good spot and setup the gatherers.
18:00 A chef contacts me and orders some goods he urgently needs for a good price. I reserve the products I am currently crafting for him. Yes crafters actually knew each other on the server and traded a lot with each other.
18:30 Our town is under attack by dirty rebels! I quickly get back and join my guilds troops. We defend our fortress succesfully (We had a lot of imba combat medics ^^).
20:00 Started a few crafting jobs in my factories and logged off.
The only other game that came close to the SWG experience was EVE online. In comparison all other games are sorry excuses for a virtual world. In comparison MMOs have become dumbed down arcade style single-player games with no complexity. Thats just not what I want.
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
If i could point to one single thing that began SWG's downfall, then it was the introduction of Jedi as a player class, it was something that should never have been, it kicked off the whole 'hologrind' where the game changed, almost overnight into some kind of grindathon for so many people, it was utterly stupid.
Yeah most people blame the CU or NGE for the downfall of SWG. But it was actually Publish 9 that basically killed the game.