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[Column] Guild Wars 2: Can GW2 Serve As the Template For The Future of MMOs?

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  • ClippersNBAClippersNBA Member Posts: 39
    Good Heavens, I hope not. Guild Wars 2 was the worst MMORPG that I have ever played. In fact, I think it set a horrible precedent for the games that followed. If it were up to me, I would delete Guild Wars 2 from history.
  • AmjocoAmjoco Member UncommonPosts: 4,858
    Originally posted by daltanious
    1. “Bill Murphy's recent article on ArcheAge's major flaw – that it focuses too much on themepark questing... “

      Major flaw??? The best part of any MMO for me (and I’m sure for majority of players) IT IS questing.

    2. “ The first comment, from DMKano, raises the perfectly valid point that MMO players have grown so accustomed to seeing “!” over NPCs' heads that there's no other way to “steer” players, especially new players through the early – and some would say “all” – parts of the game.”

      Yes, yes, ... and where is the problem? That “!” is one of best evolutional results in MMO world. Does any1 miss times when cars did not have air conditioning? No? Sure nobody does unless mazochist.
       

    3. ““But wait,” you'll say, “Guild Wars 2 has hearts, which are basically the equivalent of theme park-y 'kill 10 rats' quests!” You're correct.”

      Nope, you are NOT correct. Hearts are terribly worse equivalent. Not to mention that “dynamic random events” that are all but dynamic or random. Main reason I left Gw2 (but played and enjoyed for nearly half year in one shot) is they are bad replacement for good old questing progression with hubs and alike. Yet have to be invented better system.

    4. Etc, etc, etc, ....

     

    At the end ... there is a reason Wow is still by large measure No.1. Learn something from that.

     

    IMHO the hearts were meant for those who need to be lead around and shown what to do.

    They were a second thought because some individuals have no imagination and would walk in circles looking for what to do next. One of the best things about an open world is that it is open, and yet some players still need to be told what to do while in it. ANet brought two systems together which to me is a very innovative idea, not to say they were the first, but smart.

    WoW is still huge because at the time of it's release it was one of the very few mmorpgs available. It captured the imagination of literally millions forming a huge community that is still alive. If GW2 had been released instead of WoW I'm sure the standard "!" would be laughed at today and thought of it as a carebear ploy for newbs. The trinity system would also be ridiculed at, as in reality it is a system designed to designate players instead of allowing them be individuals. 

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • SuperNickSuperNick Member UncommonPosts: 460

    Sure, if the template is how not to make an MMO.

    I honestly don't see how the game has sold 7 million copies, maybe people really are desperate for something to play. The game doesn't have 2 million, let alone 7.

    The leveling was fun and enjoyable, the rest of the game was not. PvP was a drag, PvE was a horrible broken mess (and still is imo) and their commitment to content is pathetic.

    Having logged in again recently, the level of new content was pathetic. Almost 2 years since I last played and there was barely a new zone (one I think?), no new classes, a crushed economy and very little done with PvP.

    It's clear their earnings aren't going into GW2 so why should mine.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,122
    Originally posted by SuperNick

    Sure, if the template is how not to make an MMO.

    I honestly don't see how the game has sold 7 million copies, maybe people really are desperate for something to play. The game doesn't have 2 million, let alone 7.

    The leveling was fun and enjoyable, the rest of the game was not. PvP was a drag, PvE was a horrible broken mess (and still is imo) and their commitment to content is pathetic.

    Having logged in again recently, the level of new content was pathetic. Almost 2 years since I last played and there was barely a new zone (one I think?), no new classes, a crushed economy and very little done with PvP.

    It's clear their earnings aren't going into GW2 so why should mine.

    I know right? The only other game I was more disappointed in was ESO. Talk about the ultimate let down.

  • DanitaKusorDanitaKusor Member UncommonPosts: 556
    Originally posted by meonthissite
    God I hope not! One look at Skyforge and we see all the ways that GW2 was done poorly. There's a joke going around the internet that the only contribution that GW2 has made to the industry is it's well disguised RMTAH system where new players are forced to spend real money for gold so they can actually setup their characters without a lengthy grind and that's only if they don't want top gear, the top gear does require a grind months of it just to get to the stage where they can craft it and then crafting it with the proper resources. Ever since GW2 has come out we've seen this AHcentric system of terrible economic idea repeated in multiple games like NWO for example. It amazes me that there are so many people who actually think it's great smiling laughing while this game bleeds their wallets dry.

    This is highly inaccurate. You can get a character to 80 and equip them entirely in exotic gear from the WvW vendors for a few gold and some badges which you can get easily in Edge of the Mists. That's enough to jump into any of the current end game content.

    Ascended gear (about 7% better stats than exotic) takes longer that is true, but it's not significantly longer. It takes about one month of doing guild missions and dailies to have all ascended rings/trinkets/amulets. Armour and weapons are quicker if you have a lot of gold because you can just buy everything off the trading post, but if you are going to farm everything it won't take a huge time investment to get that done either.

    There are a lot of people playing GW2 who have never spent a cent on it apart from the original box price even after 2 years.

    The Enlightened take things Lightly

  • LydonLydon Member UncommonPosts: 2,932
    Originally posted by meonthissite
    God I hope not! One look at Skyforge and we see all the ways that GW2 was done poorly. There's a joke going around the internet that the only contribution that GW2 has made to the industry is it's well disguised RMTAH system where new players are forced to spend real money for gold so they can actually setup their characters without a lengthy grind and that's only if they don't want top gear, the top gear does require a grind months of it just to get to the stage where they can craft it and then crafting it with the proper resources. Ever since GW2 has come out we've seen this AHcentric system of terrible economic idea repeated in multiple games like NWO for example. It amazes me that there are so many people who actually think it's great smiling laughing while this game bleeds their wallets dry.
     

    Funny how as someone who has played since beta, I haven't spent a single cent on the game since my pre-order...

  • RandaynRandayn Member UncommonPosts: 904

    boys and girls, the word of the day is dellusional.  

    GW2 has:

    Several different areas with different color patterns and different building, all areas about the same size, with a clear linear path that takes you along like a choo-choo train.

    Dungeons are the worst I've ever played.  Attack as much as you can, move as much as you can and hope it dies.  

    Crafting is a not that bad, but it's not the next big thing or anything.

    I still dont think the quest grind is the problem.  The problem is that many developers (GW2 and AA) do not tell a great story.  Sure the story might appeal to some, but it's still very thin and weak.  In other cases (GW2, Wildstar, AA) the quest path is easy to see and poorly disguised....it's almost like there is a neon sign up that says "GO THIS WAY!". 

    There is nothing wrong with questing at all...TSW, FFXIV, SWTOR (to a lesser degree) have done a great job engaging the audience in the story.  Other games, not so much.  

    But if all you want to do is focus on questing, then why doesnt AA change it's quests to instead show a new player what's available to them, rather than kill x of y over and over and over and over again?  Wouldn't it be more beneficial to AA and the players?

    image
  • reemireemi Member UncommonPosts: 45

    I hope no, 

    Questing is fun for the 15 first level, after it's more repetitive than anything. I love when I progress when I level, in GW2 you have all your skill at level 5 and you are still doing the same rotation with the same skills at level 50, in addition, you don't kill monster faster. 

    At same time, healing is what I prefer so GW2 model isnt an option at all.

    IMO, the classic model like EQ/WOW is the only model that can survive more than 6 month... 

  • TheAmirTheAmir Member UncommonPosts: 433

    I hope modern MMOs do not try to use GW2's "ideas", because almost none of them even CAME from GW2 and all of them were dull and repetitive. Dynamic events? Oh, you mean pretty much a different version of what Rift and WHO has/had, right? Yeah. There's very little that's dynamic about them.

     

    Heart markers? Yep, quest hubs. Worse than quest hubs as there's typically very little Lore surrounding them even when you DO talk to the NPC.

     

    Which brings me to: WHY is Lore so scanty in this game, and vague? Where are the readable books? Beyond the tripe that passes for "living story/personal story" you pretty much have to go read the Wiki, because most of the NPCs just spout off generic garbage that doesn't tell you much of anything.

    No housing at all, crafting is absolutely trivial in most aspects of this game, even "exploration" is hold-your-hand stuff. It's NOT exploring if they tell you exactly where to go, sorry. Oh, jumping puzzles. I guess that's fun if you actually like jumping puzzles, which many people don't, including me.

    Rper support is non-existent, as it is in most modern and "action" oriented MMOs. When a game has nothing but kill kill kill action combat!!!! The community, and especially the RP community, ends up suffering and turning into utter crap.

    The races are pretty boring.  This goes for a lot of MMOs though - you have advanced engines for graphics and the best you can come up with is a few varieties of humans/elves/tiny race and one badly designed beast race? The MOBS are more interesting, sadly. It wasn't as bad as Rift's utterly uninspired races but it sure as heck didn't make me care one bit about any of them, especially since there was an utter lack of "culture" and such even in the starter cities. Everyone of all races meandering about wearing and saying and doing the same things. Meh.

    Nope, I've tried and tried to give this "MMO" a chance and it just flat out fails for me. 

    image
  • AmjocoAmjoco Member UncommonPosts: 4,858
    Originally posted by SuperNick

    Sure, if the template is how not to make an MMO.

    I honestly don't see how the game has sold 7 million copies, maybe people really are desperate for something to play. The game doesn't have 2 million, let alone 7.

    The leveling was fun and enjoyable, the rest of the game was not. PvP was a drag, PvE was a horrible broken mess (and still is imo) and their commitment to content is pathetic.

    Having logged in again recently, the level of new content was pathetic. Almost 2 years since I last played and there was barely a new zone (one I think?), no new classes, a crushed economy and very little done with PvP.

    It's clear their earnings aren't going into GW2 so why should mine.

    The game came out about the same time as MoP and yet WoWs zones are set in stone with minimal changes. GW2 is evolving constantly. If you just login to any game and stand there looking at the scenery you won't notice ay changes at all.

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • tordurbartordurbar Member UncommonPosts: 421

    No. I enjoyed GW2 a lot but the getting rid of the Trinity and having no gear progression at max level is not something that I would want passed on to newer games. PVP as a zergfest is not something to share as well. Worst of all is the action combat. In GW2 it is ok but as spread to Tera and Wildstar it almost becomes a fps not an mmo. RIFT definitely had much better "random" events than GW2. Finally the idea of hiding quests behind "discovery" should be tossed. That is one of the main reasons that people dropped EQ like a hot potato for WOW. 

     

  • loulakiloulaki Member UncommonPosts: 944

     i would like to see:

    1. the dynamic events

    2. the hybrid combat action with dodge and positioning, downed, NO holy trinity

    3. its art style

    4. its regular update which lead to a living world

    5. its payment model

    6. its soft level cap which leads to more emphasize on skill rather on grind

    7. its huge encounters like those with the Wurms and the updated Tequalt but also the "casual" ones like Shattered and the Claw of Jormag

     

    i wouldn't like to see:

    1. its lack on PvE experience dungeons which are hard and not worthy to do other the achievement

    2. RvR pvp

    3. home areas which are useless

    4. uninspiring crafting

    5. broken globalized economy

    6. loading screens

    7. lottery in cash shop, i would prefer to buy a cash booster from loots or skins for weapons which costs less than 5$ for each skin, rather than a key with random drops..

    8. no roles in parties, the removal of holy trinity is great, but that doesn't mean that players who would choose roles not being rewarding, atm you can be a healer or support type character but everything in PvE is rewarding dps ...

     

    i hope developers will follow the GW2 example rather the safe investments which leads to boring games like TESO, or FinalFantasy, Wildstar (maybe cause they have the same publisher) dared to go different and although i don't like its style i believe it is going well and i hope it will go well !

    image

  • pinktailzpinktailz Member UncommonPosts: 173
    Hope not, because GW2 is pointless single player game ever.
  • VorchVorch Member UncommonPosts: 793
    Originally posted by reemi

    I hope no, 

    Questing is fun for the 15 first level, after it's more repetitive than anything. I love when I progress when I level, in GW2 you have all your skill at level 5 and you are still doing the same rotation with the same skills at level 50, in addition, you don't kill monster faster. 

    At same time, healing is what I prefer so GW2 model isnt an option at all.

    IMO, the classic model like EQ/WOW is the only model that can survive more than 6 month... 

    Sounds like you either did not play GW2 or never heard of the guardian class.

    Also, GW2 is thriving and it's 2 year anniversary is coming up...

    I don't even feel the urge to defend the game to the mmorpg community anymore...mostly I just play :)

    "As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days— those are now the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2

  • KalferKalfer Member Posts: 779
    Originally posted by pinktailz
    Hope not, because GW2 is pointless single player game ever.

    hmmmmm.

     

     

    It's a shame that so many people in here haven't enjoyed the game at all. I still think, 2 years later its a blast. I see it as a strength that it goes against the traditional conventions. 

  • cesmode8cesmode8 Member UncommonPosts: 431

    As someone said, 1-79 was very enjoyable.  Level 80 content is horrid and should not be replicated.  

     

    For me, GW2's questing system was second to none.  By far the best leveling experience of any MMO I have ever played in the last 10 years.  I wish this to be copied for all games.  With that said, the traditional method of quest hubs still works.  People complain about it in Wildstar, but its no different than any other MMO ever released with the exception of a few, like GW2.  And when Arenanet gave us a slightly different take on leveling, people still complained.  

    However, I do not recommend the "endgame" of GW2.  Arenanet can tout all they want that their entire game is end game, but thats such a weak argument now because theres absolutely no reason or incentive to visit the entire game(going back to lower level zones, etc).  Arenanet's vision of a great endgame is horrible story telling in the form of bread crumb living story 2 week updates.  No one asked for living story.  Ever.  We asked for dungeon revamps, dungeon updates, precursor scavenger hunts, more open world content, more abilities and skills, more classes and races.  Yet, their dev time surrounds living story.  

    Living story is the sole reason I quit the game...If they also developed other things such as the list mentioned above, I might be still playing.  But their content is living story.  And I hate living story.  So with 5 level 80s, theres nothing for me to do other than WvW...and thats not enough for me.

     

  • askdabossaskdaboss Member UncommonPosts: 631
    Originally posted by Lunarpac

    From my perspective, GW2 wasn't as different from the traditional questing model as some would have you believe. You still looked for the abovementioned hearts on the map, went there, fulfilled some sort of objective, and got a reward. Sure, there were certain tweaks compared to the traditional model, but nothing truly groundbreaking. GW2 was never the sandbox-model that it could have been. It was and will remain a themepark disguised as a sandbox. 

    GW2 was fun for a while, but a couple of things killed it for me:

    - Close to no item progression

    - Combat lacked structure (I missed the holy trinity)

    - Crafting was uninspired and dull

    - No traditional endgame

    Game publishers, I can offer you an insight in the simple mind of the average consumer.

    The specimen of consumer presented above will just buy anything as long as there is a price tag on it.

    Indeed, GW2 advertised specifically their game as having little to no gear progression, no trinity and no traditional endgame.

    Yet, this consumer specimen still bought the game - a type of game they do not like - and also complains about these very same selling points later.

     

    Suggestion: higher price tag, rip them off - because they will still complain.

     
  • gw2foolgw2fool Member UncommonPosts: 164
    I have 10 max level chars and am currently working on number 11. Getting to max level can be entertaining, but end level to be blunt, just plain sucks. pvp comes down to who ever can twitch fastest and wvw is too repetitive.
  • rodingorodingo Member RarePosts: 2,870
    Originally posted by Vorch

    Also, GW2 is thriving and it's 2 year anniversary is coming up...

    I don't even feel the urge to defend the game to the mmorpg community anymore...mostly I just play :)

    That's how I feel.  The actual players know where the game stands amongst its peers.  The game is just very polarizing just because of how much it shakes up MMO norms. 

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135

    Great article. Probably one of the best I've seen on this site in quite a long time.

    It's no big surprise, but as per usual on this site, so many posters have completely missed the mark as to what the article was talking about. Instead, they see this as yet another opportunity to flame the game they never liked enough to really play to begin with. Typical.

    To add more irony to this thread, many of these same posters are demonstrating their membership to the very same problem the author is writing about. That we have been conditioned to expect these linear "!" quest hubs, and that most of us don't understand any other type of game.

    This is why he talks about GW2 specifically, because GW2 is a game that starts off with "!" hubs (in the form o hearts), and systematically weens players off of them, and towards a more exploration / events based experience.

    I see so many people complain that 'questing is just going from heart to heart, nothing innovative there' or 'endgame lacks any real focus or progression'. Well, they're half right. But here's the other half:

    - Those guided experiences you find 1-79, become less frequent for a reason. You are supposed to (at some point, which is left up to the player), start to take the initiative into your own hands. That 'lack of focus' you see at endgame, is because the entire world is open to you. You can literally go and do whatever you want. It's complete freedom. And true freedom in an MMO is something that has become so foreign, that most gamers seem to be clueless about what to do with it.

    GW2 may not be a true sandbox, but it is easily the least linear themepark on the market today. Which is why many people call it a 'sandpark, or a thembox'. It's a hybrid of the two. And I would definitely love to see more games trying this type of design. It doesn't mean they have to mimic every little feature GW2 does, and most probably won't, But the game has done a lot of features this genre actually needs. Unless you want to be stuck, 10 years from now, running from ! to !, waiting in a que for a tank or a healer (or maybe even both), complaining about how people don't really socialize in these games anymore, or struggling to fill that raid slot for the Nth time, and complaining how noone raids anymore.

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Originally posted by Vorch

    Also, GW2 is thriving and it's 2 year anniversary is coming up...

    I don't even feel the urge to defend the game to the mmorpg community anymore...mostly I just play :)

    That's how I feel.  The actual players know where the game stands amongst its peers.  The game is just very polarizing just because of how much it shakes up MMO norms. 

    Lotta truth there ^

    So many criticisms comes from the fact that the game is different. It definitely has it's flaws, but more often than not, people don't actually talk about them. They talk about the fact that they can't play the trinity they're used to, or they don't know what to do at endgame, or there's no loot progression, etc.

    But as is customary in the gaming community, if there's a popular game you don't enjoy, it is your duty to continuously bash and flame it into the ground, if it gets any sort of attention whatsoever! There is no room for games I don't personally enjoy, because they are all bad! amirite.

  • AmjocoAmjoco Member UncommonPosts: 4,858
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Originally posted by Vorch

    Also, GW2 is thriving and it's 2 year anniversary is coming up...

    I don't even feel the urge to defend the game to the mmorpg community anymore...mostly I just play :)

    That's how I feel.  The actual players know where the game stands amongst its peers.  The game is just very polarizing just because of how much it shakes up MMO norms. 

    Lotta truth there ^

    So many criticisms comes from the fact that the game is different. It definitely has it's flaws, but more often than not, people don't actually talk about them. They talk about the fact that they can't play the trinity they're used to, or they don't know what to do at endgame, or there's no loot progression, etc.

    But as is customary in the gaming community, if there's a popular game you don't enjoy, it is your duty to continuously bash and flame it into the ground, if it gets any sort of attention whatsoever! There is no room for games I don't personally enjoy, because they are all bad! amirite.

    And I agree with you! 

    Members come here looking for games and insight, they want something new and different. When something comes out that is different they complain because it wasn't like the old way. They don't even play, but bashing seems to be easier than saying nothing at all for some reason.

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • XiaokiXiaoki Member RarePosts: 3,358

    The only thing of worth other MMOs can take from GW2 are the dynamic events.


    But not the way dynamic events are in the game but the way ArenaNet said they would be in their manifesto(also known as ArenaNet's big book of LIES).


    And thats it. Why copy things like GW2s combat when its not very good and other MMOs have better?

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Member Posts: 2,083
    Originally posted by tordurbar

    No. I enjoyed GW2 a lot but the getting rid of the Trinity and having no gear progression at max level is not something that I would want passed on to newer games. PVP as a zergfest is not something to share as well. Worst of all is the action combat. In GW2 it is ok but as spread to Tera and Wildstar it almost becomes a fps not an mmo. RIFT definitely had much better "random" events than GW2. Finally the idea of hiding quests behind "discovery" should be tossed. That is one of the main reasons that people dropped EQ like a hot potato for WOW. 

     

    Short and honest. A good post.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • AmjocoAmjoco Member UncommonPosts: 4,858
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by tordurbar

    No. I enjoyed GW2 a lot but the getting rid of the Trinity and having no gear progression at max level is not something that I would want passed on to newer games. PVP as a zergfest is not something to share as well. Worst of all is the action combat. In GW2 it is ok but as spread to Tera and Wildstar it almost becomes a fps not an mmo. RIFT definitely had much better "random" events than GW2. Finally the idea of hiding quests behind "discovery" should be tossed. That is one of the main reasons that people dropped EQ like a hot potato for WOW. 

     

    Short and honest. A good post.

    And it is very opinionated. :) 

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

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