Because it doesn't need, or want, hype. It's not going to have millions of subscribers, it's not going to have a AAA-budget, and it certainly isn't going to try to do things that it's not good at. All of those things means that if you want to see a game that focuses on a few core aspects and (hopefully) executes them well, you'll try it. If you want to play an MMO that tries to cater to everyone, you won't.
I agree with you to some extent - that you do need a certain element of pve (or non-rvr) to break the constant RvR/PvP. I think this will be achieved in CU through having to gather resources if you're building a guild house, your own house, a defense tower, etc.
How do you think players will build their houses, guild house an towers? Can they do that with their regular PvP character or do you think they need to log a crafter class they have as an alt?
It's a niche game for a niche player base so of course not everyone will love or care about it. Also others have said since it is in its infancy stages there wont be insane amounts of hype yet (as with a lot of other MMOs).
As soon as you start seeing in depth gameplay you will see people starting to become drawn in and possibly even break the niche idea surrounding the PvP game.
I get information sent directly to my email as I am a backer..
Its true that its a PVP game so that kind of cuts down on who will play it, the devs are fine with that as they know what they want to make and they know they wont have wow numbers.
Myself I enjoy pvp games so am looking forward to this but its still qutie some time off.
I agree with you to some extent - that you do need a certain element of pve (or non-rvr) to break the constant RvR/PvP. I think this will be achieved in CU through having to gather resources if you're building a guild house, your own house, a defense tower, etc.
How do you think players will build their houses, guild house an towers? Can they do that with their regular PvP character or do you think they need to log a crafter class they have as an alt?
How did this work i DAOC? Could PvPers craft?
This is just my guess at this point but I'm picturing your guild crafter(s) (crafting class) needs certain resources for whatever they're making and the resources are readily available far out on the rvr map amongst some pve mobs. So we form a group and go out to this location and start killing mobs. Since you're out in the open I assume you'll have to be aware of enemies at any time which adds an element of danger to the pve farming. You aquire said resources and your Crafter starts building something which may need assistance or just to protect him from enemies until he's done. Resources may also come from killing enemies, who knows.
MJ has stated that every toon, Crafter or not, will have some "basic" crafting capabilities such as minor repairs to armour, making basic arrows, etc. I have a feeling that the Crafter class will be the only one who will be able to make actual structures such as guild houses - you may even need several Crafters, who knows. MJ stated that this Crafter class exists for those who don't necessarily want to fight but would rather run the economy, make our gear, sell it, etc.
In DAoC PvPers could craft and go to max crafting level. While it was rare to craft on your main PvP toon (most did this on alts) it was completely possible. Personally, I don't see the appeal in strictly playing a non-fighting toon such as a Crafter - especially in a PvP/RvR game - and I picture many guilds will need to figure out rather reluctantly who will make the Crafter toon to equip and build for the guild.
So i guess you are mostly a pve player and have no whatsoever idea about pvp. Truth is.. the space of pvp is not in the slightest explored up to now. MOBAs are only the first tiny step, and more to come.. and especially in persistents worlds and with a little bit more massive scale.(not neccesary MMORPGs, but to some degree MMO like)
And yes.. for players like you it is most probably uninteresting, because a PvP game(made as a PvP game) is something completely different what the usual MMORPG player expect.
Are you seriously trying to equate MOBAs have a resemblance to MMORPGs? Just because they have an isometric view and a flimsy form of stat progression doesn't qualify them to be in the same category.
There have been quite a few games that highlighted PvP as the main stage of gameplay, Darkfall online, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, and they failed miserably.
That's exactly your mistake.. we talk about pvp games here.. not about MMORPG. And yes.. MOBAs are pvp games.. as is camelot unchained.. and maybe both are not so much MMORPGs.
Highlighted PvP? PvP in Age of Conan is a joke.. and to call it a pvp game even more so.
Warhammer.. with battlegrounds? If they would have focused more on world pvp and less on pve(which sucks anyway in warhammer) the game would have done better most probably
Darkfall? You mean that indy game? well.. that, for a indy game does actually well. But you can only expect that much from indy games. By the way, where is the pve indy game with even close of a success to Darkfall? Exactly.. there is non.. and the kickstarter Pantheon failed.
Edit:
And again.. you have to come away from the RPG part of MMORPGs.. because a pure pvp game does not need RPG.. it can include in some way or form some RPG elements(similar to MOBAs), but what you 100% do not need is a steady character progression system, or NPC Quests or a lot of other stuff MMORPGs somewhat define. Such games should be foremost PvP games... on a larger scale in a persistent world.. that may be then a MMO of some kind, but not really a MMORPG..
And yeah.. as i already said in the first post.. there are almost no PvP MMORPGs worth playing.. they all suck miserable. And one reason could be that all of them tried very hard to be "real RPGs" + offer PvE. Cut both out, and focus on PvP + a persistent world and a massive scale.. and you can maybe easier get a good pvp game.
The player group is in any way different. Most PvP player don't care much about RPG, and most MMORPGs as we can clearly see, don't know what to do in a PvP game, or just don't want it. But a lot of other people want pvp, as MOBAs, RTS and FPS show very clear.
I think personally, that you are clutching at straws, as players who play MOBA's and those who play MMO's are completely different, whether its PVE or PVP, and it has been proven time and time again, that the number of players who are interested in a PVP only MMO is a relatively small subset of the PVP community in any case, even DAOC was also a PVE MMO, its just that the PVP was for its time, fairly revolutional, and the whole 3 realms thing probably started with them. But for a strictly PVP only MMO, the demand is actually very small, and its probably dominated by the FPS community, you just have to look at Darkfall to see that fantasy based games that concentrate on PVP are not that popular, and much as you might draw parallels between PVP and MOBA games, the two things are entirely separate in every conceivable way. That doesn't mean that CU can't work, it just means that the likelihood of it becoming a mainstream game is fairly minimal. PVP for both fantasy and Scifi based MMO's is pretty well covered, and i honestly believe that the biggest proportion even of those that do enjoy PVP, prefer to do so in a PVE based game where they have access to battlegrounds etc, that show rankings and have league tables, as those allow them to engage in different types of gameplay and also gain notoriety in PVP where their abilities are 'socially' demonstrable, which is something most probably desire anyway.
Hmm... i all honestly you are wrong. A lot of pvp player do play almost all kind of pvp games, be it FPS, RTS, MOBAs or some MMORPGs. And PvP in MMORPGs was more or less not so successful because it is in most games a afterthough and sucks that way. Those which actually focus more on PvP are in almost all cases indy games with a lot of other problems, which is the main reason why they are not so popular.
A lot of DAoC player played afterwards GW1 and now MOBAs, and most of them played more or less any pvp game to different degrees. Those focusing more on the tactical/strategical aspect prefering more RTS, MOBAs or MMORPGs, and those more focusing on the twitch aspect play more likely more FPSs.. nevertheless the usual pvp player play all of them, just prefers the one or the other a bit more.. as long as the a worth playing.. and that can not be said about a lot of MMORPGs, when it comes down to pvp.
And the next thing.. pvp players and battlegrounds. Truth is.. that almost all pvp players hate or at least don't like battlegrounds. Most players playing games with battleground and do battlegrounds are pve players, and most of those actually realizing that they enjoy pvp more switch to another game.. most likely nowadays a MOBA. Because the actual gameplay in most battlegrounds is a joke, the tactical depth is almost not there, and on top of that a lot of them are heavy item dependent, which requires a lot of PvE.
Look, a lot of pvp players look for games with a more persistent world, but is almost not one. Just a list of a few even worth mentioning, and why the actually are not that favored for pvp players:
- DAoC. Was actually quite good. The in the beginning long leveling requirement was a little bit of a entry barrier, but some took it and afterwards you could focus on your pvp game, and it was't that bad as it. With ToA they ruined it for most pvp players with the next added item requirement and withit pve requirement.
- Shadowbane. Theoretically not bad. But the execution was a joke. I just say sb.exe errors.. not to talk about the subpar graphics and the immense lag on larger battles.
- EvE. One point. The combat sucks. And it is too much meta, and not enough smaller scale pvp, and those without a purpose.
- DF. Indy. A lot of shortcomings. And it is more or less only large scale pvp. Similar to EvE, but worst. You have to be in a large guild.
So that's basicly, when it comes down to PvP in MMORPGs.. all others are more or less just added battlegrounds/arenas, which deliver a lot less than any MOBA, or other game. and don't offer the persistence(in pvp). Ok.. you could add GW2, and GW1 was actually a successful pvp game(though not a MMO, as all MOBAs), but the GW2 battlegrounds offer less tactical battles compared to GW1 and the WvW is not really worth mentioning either. The map is overall to small, it only comes down to keep flipping, not enough room for smaller scale or more tactical interesting battles.
Ok.. and i could add Planetside 1 & 2. Planetside 1 was actually really good, but i guess somewhat ahead of its time, with not enough advertising. Planetside 2(somewhat dumbed down to PS1) is actually ok. But it is not a lot more than let's say Battlefield, because in my mind they could have done a lot more and a lot better in the persistent world and feeling.(PS1 got it better to be honest)
But it is nothing new, that the industry didn't recognize pvp and it's appeal in almost any genre. FPS? Someone have to make a mod(CS) to really utilize pvp for FPS games. Afterwards the industry made a lot. The same with MOBAs, at first it was a Warcraft3 Mod, before the industry realized how many actually want a pvp game foremost. Now we get hundreds of them. And i guess it will be not that much different with MMOs.. will be those PvP MMOs MMORPGs? Maybe, to some degree, but not what the usual PvE player would expect.
But i do understand, that most non PvP players can't imagine what pvp players want.. and that there are actually a lot of us. (just add all MOBA players, all pvp FPS players and all pvp RTS players together and you will get a very huge number of players).
By the way.. another game ahead of it's time was Savage2.. and a game like Savage2(or parts of it) may be the next evolutionary step for MOBA's pvp wise. Or and more likely another sub genre.
So i guess you are mostly a pve player and have no whatsoever idea about pvp. Truth is.. the space of pvp is not in the slightest explored up to now. MOBAs are only the first tiny step, and more to come.. and especially in persistents worlds and with a little bit more massive scale.(not neccesary MMORPGs, but to some degree MMO like)
And yes.. for players like you it is most probably uninteresting, because a PvP game(made as a PvP game) is something completely different what the usual MMORPG player expect.
Are you seriously trying to equate MOBAs have a resemblance to MMORPGs? Just because they have an isometric view and a flimsy form of stat progression doesn't qualify them to be in the same category.
There have been quite a few games that highlighted PvP as the main stage of gameplay, Darkfall online, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, and they failed miserably.
That's exactly your mistake.. we talk about pvp games here.. not about MMORPG. And yes.. MOBAs are pvp games.. as is camelot unchained.. and maybe both are not so much MMORPGs.
Highlighted PvP? PvP in Age of Conan is a joke.. and to call it a pvp game even more so.
Warhammer.. with battlegrounds? If they would have focused more on world pvp and less on pve(which sucks anyway in warhammer) the game would have done better most probably
Darkfall? You mean that indy game? well.. that, for a indy game does actually well. But you can only expect that much from indy games. By the way, where is the pve indy game with even close of a success to Darkfall? Exactly.. there is non.. and the kickstarter Pantheon failed.
Edit:
And again.. you have to come away from the RPG part of MMORPGs.. because a pure pvp game does not need RPG.. it can include in some way or form some RPG elements(similar to MOBAs), but what you 100% do not need is a steady character progression system, or NPC Quests or a lot of other stuff MMORPGs somewhat define. Such games should be foremost PvP games... on a larger scale in a persistent world.. that may be then a MMO of some kind, but not really a MMORPG..
And yeah.. as i already said in the first post.. there are almost no PvP MMORPGs worth playing.. they all suck miserable. And one reason could be that all of them tried very hard to be "real RPGs" + offer PvE. Cut both out, and focus on PvP + a persistent world and a massive scale.. and you can maybe easier get a good pvp game.
The player group is in any way different. Most PvP player don't care much about RPG, and most MMORPGs as we can clearly see, don't know what to do in a PvP game, or just don't want it. But a lot of other people want pvp, as MOBAs, RTS and FPS show very clear.
I think personally, that you are clutching at straws, as players who play MOBA's and those who play MMO's are completely different, whether its PVE or PVP, and it has been proven time and time again, that the number of players who are interested in a PVP only MMO is a relatively small subset of the PVP community in any case, even DAOC was also a PVE MMO, its just that the PVP was for its time, fairly revolutional, and the whole 3 realms thing probably started with them. But for a strictly PVP only MMO, the demand is actually very small, and its probably dominated by the FPS community, you just have to look at Darkfall to see that fantasy based games that concentrate on PVP are not that popular, and much as you might draw parallels between PVP and MOBA games, the two things are entirely separate in every conceivable way. That doesn't mean that CU can't work, it just means that the likelihood of it becoming a mainstream game is fairly minimal. PVP for both fantasy and Scifi based MMO's is pretty well covered, and i honestly believe that the biggest proportion even of those that do enjoy PVP, prefer to do so in a PVE based game where they have access to battlegrounds etc, that show rankings and have league tables, as those allow them to engage in different types of gameplay and also gain notoriety in PVP where their abilities are 'socially' demonstrable, which is something most probably desire anyway.
Hmm... i all honestly you are wrong. A lot of pvp player do play almost all kind of pvp games, be it FPS, RTS, MOBAs or some MMORPGs. And PvP in MMORPGs was more or less not so successful because it is in most games a afterthough and sucks that way. Those which actually focus more on PvP are in almost all cases indy games with a lot of other problems, which is the main reason why they are not so popular.
A lot of DAoC player played afterwards GW1 and now MOBAs, and most of them played more or less any pvp game to different degrees. Those focusing more on the tactical/strategical aspect prefering more RTS, MOBAs or MMORPGs, and those more focusing on the twitch aspect play more likely more FPSs.. nevertheless the usual pvp player play all of them, just prefers the one or the other a bit more.. as long as the a worth playing.. and that can not be said about a lot of MMORPGs, when it comes down to pvp.
And the next thing.. pvp players and battlegrounds. Truth is.. that almost all pvp players hate or at least don't like battlegrounds. Most players playing games with battleground and do battlegrounds are pve players, and most of those actually realizing that they enjoy pvp more switch to another game.. most likely nowadays a MOBA. Because the actual gameplay in most battlegrounds is a joke, the tactical depth is almost not there, and on top of that a lot of them are heavy item dependent, which requires a lot of PvE.
Look, a lot of pvp players look for games with a more persistent world, but is almost not one. Just a list of a few even worth mentioning, and why the actually are not that favored for pvp players:
- DAoC. Was actually quite good. The in the beginning long leveling requirement was a little bit of a entry barrier, but some took it and afterwards you could focus on your pvp game, and it was't that bad as it. With ToA they ruined it for most pvp players with the next added item requirement and withit pve requirement.
- Shadowbane. Theoretically not bad. But the execution was a joke. I just say sb.exe errors.. not to talk about the subpar graphics and the immense lag on larger battles.
- EvE. One point. The combat sucks. And it is too much meta, and not enough smaller scale pvp, and those without a purpose.
- DF. Indy. A lot of shortcomings. And it is more or less only large scale pvp. Similar to EvE, but worst. You have to be in a large guild.
So that's basicly, when it comes down to PvP in MMORPGs.. all others are more or less just added battlegrounds/arenas, which deliver a lot less than any MOBA, or other game. and don't offer the persistence(in pvp). Ok.. you could add GW2, and GW1 was actually a successful pvp game(though not a MMO, as all MOBAs), but the GW2 battlegrounds offer less tactical battles compared to GW1 and the WvW is not really worth mentioning either. The map is overall to small, it only comes down to keep flipping, not enough room for smaller scale or more tactical interesting battles.
Ok.. and i could add Planetside 1 & 2. Planetside 1 was actually really good, but i guess somewhat ahead of its time, with not enough advertising. Planetside 2(somewhat dumbed down to PS1) is actually ok. But it is not a lot more than let's say Battlefield, because in my mind they could have done a lot more and a lot better in the persistent world and feeling.(PS1 got it better to be honest)
But it is nothing new, that the industry didn't recognize pvp and it's appeal in almost any genre. FPS? Someone have to make a mod(CS) to really utilize pvp for FPS games. Afterwards the industry made a lot. The same with MOBAs, at first it was a Warcraft3 Mod, before the industry realized how many actually want a pvp game foremost. Now we get hundreds of them. And i guess it will be not that much different with MMOs.. will be those PvP MMOs MMORPGs? Maybe, to some degree, but not what the usual PvE player would expect.
But i do understand, that most non PvP players can't imagine what pvp players want.. and that there are actually a lot of us. (just add all MOBA players, all pvp FPS players and all pvp RTS players together and you will get a very huge number of players).
By the way.. another game ahead of it's time was Savage2.. and a game like Savage2(or parts of it) may be the next evolutionary step for MOBA's pvp wise. Or and more likely another sub genre.
It's no secret that DAoC didn't quite know how it struck magic when it came to RvR but it worked. It worked in the sense of when the game launched it was a clean slate RvR wise and if you were a zerger you zerged, if you were a stealther you did small scale, if you were into team coordinated fighting you did 8 man, if you were into realm defense you played the keep siege/defense game.....point is it had something for everyone - many different forms of PvP. It wasn't until New Frontiers that the game suddenly started trying to force a certain playstyle on everyone that drove people away. WAR was similar as well in that it forced a certain play style and made zerging the only way to play the game.
In order for CU to be successful I feel they just need to keep things open and not very structured. Yes bigger guilds will zerg and claim a piece of the map but then they will be busy dealing with other big zerg guilds trying to take their land. Meanwhile, 8 mans will remain satisfied and engaged with intercepting these zergs, roaming about the map, possibly claiming their own map pieces to draw out enemies, etc. DAoC RvR/PvP at its best time (Shrouded Isles expac) was just an open canvas of RvR possibilities with little structure. If CU can recapture that feeling it will be very successful and draw many different types of PvPers. If it becomes too structured it will just be another WAR.
This is just my guess at this point but I'm picturing your guild crafter(s) (crafting class) needs certain resources for whatever they're making and the resources are readily available far out on the RvR map amongst some PVE mobs. So we form a group and go out to this location and start killing mobs. Since you're out in the open I assume you'll have to be aware of enemies at any time which adds an element of danger to the PVE farming. You aquire said resources and your Crafter starts building something which may need assistance or just to protect him from enemies until he's done. Resources may also come from killing enemies, who knows.
MJ has stated that every toon, Crafter or not, will have some "basic" crafting capabilities such as minor repairs to armour, making basic arrows, etc. I have a feeling that the Crafter class will be the only one who will be able to make actual structures such as guild houses - you may even need several Crafters, who knows. MJ stated that this Crafter class exists for those who don't necessarily want to fight but would rather run the economy, make our gear, sell it, etc.
In DAoC PvPers could craft and go to max crafting level. While it was rare to craft on your main PvP toon (most did this on alts) it was completely possible. Personally, I don't see the appeal in strictly playing a non-fighting toon such as a Crafter - especially in a PvP/RvR game - and I picture many guilds will need to figure out rather reluctantly who will make the Crafter toon to equip and build for the guild.
To your first paragraph: Like I have said in other posts I am really looking forward to see the next MMO pick up the Tower system from AoC. Where your guild by controlling a territory with a mine in, or lumber mill etc. would automatically get an influx of materials for the crafters in very small numbers though for balance reasons, but it would be really fun and add to immersion. So nice if they implement this in addition to the ways of collecting that you describe. Fighting over resources gathered and loosing them to the enemy and retaking it can sure be really exciting and would be something to look forward to.
However often gathering resources and running back and forth with it can be a bit drawn out too.
While giving PvPers basic basic crafting is better that nothing, atm I think it is to little. in TESO being able to craft gives some nice spice to leveling experience. I think I would be way less motivated for leveling hadn't it been for the nice crafting breaks form leveling. And like I said before when there is no PvP you need to have something else for variation in there.
And by the way when they talk about housing I guess they mean player houses as well (and it sound a bit strange that PvPers can not have that).
Yea I agree with you that it is way more fun to play a character that also can fight. And I do not think pc games should add chores. Like you say one guy will have to be nice to the guild and level a character that only can craft so that the guild can have state of the art guild house etc. although he also would like to take part in the action.
This is just my guess at this point but I'm picturing your guild crafter(s) (crafting class) needs certain resources for whatever they're making and the resources are readily available far out on the rvr map amongst some pve mobs. So we form a group and go out to this location and start killing mobs. Since you're out in the open I assume you'll have to be aware of enemies at any time which adds an element of danger to the pve farming. You aquire said resources and your Crafter starts building something which may need assistance or just to protect him from enemies until he's done. Resources may also come from killing enemies, who knows.
MJ has stated that every toon, Crafter or not, will have some "basic" crafting capabilities such as minor repairs to armour, making basic arrows, etc. I have a feeling that the Crafter class will be the only one who will be able to make actual structures such as guild houses - you may even need several Crafters, who knows. MJ stated that this Crafter class exists for those who don't necessarily want to fight but would rather run the economy, make our gear, sell it, etc.
In DAoC PvPers could craft and go to max crafting level. While it was rare to craft on your main PvP toon (most did this on alts) it was completely possible. Personally, I don't see the appeal in strictly playing a non-fighting toon such as a Crafter - especially in a PvP/RvR game - and I picture many guilds will need to figure out rather reluctantly who will make the Crafter toon to equip and build for the guild.
To your first paragraph: Like I have said in other posts I am really looking forward to see the next MMO pick up the Tower system from AoC. Where your guild by controlling a territory with a mine in, or lumber mill etc. would autmatically get an influx of materials for the crafters in very small numbers though for balance reasons, but it would be really fun and add tyo immersion. So nice if they implement this in addition to the ways of collecting that you describe. Figting over resources gathered and loosing them to the enemy and retaking it can sure be really exciting and woud smething to look forward to.
However often gathering resources and running back and forth with it can be a bit drawn out too.
While giving PvPers basic basic crafting is better that nothing, atm I think it is to little. in TESO being able to craft gives some nice spice to lveling experiance. I think I would be way less motivated for leveing hadnt it been for the nice crafting breaks form leveling. And like I said before when thre is no PvP you need to have something else for varaition in there.
And by the way when they talk about housing I guess they mean player houses as well (and it sound a bit strange that PvPers can not have that).
Yea I agree with you that it is way more fun to play a character that also can fight. And I do not hink pc games should add chores. Like you say one guy will have to be nice to the guild and level a chracter that only can craft so that the guild can have state of the art guild house etc. although he also would like to take part in the action.
Fighting enemies over control of resources such as gold mines, lumber mills, etc would be very interesting. I'm not familiar with the AoC Towers but does it work like a silo for resources? If so that could introduce another interesting PvP option.
Originally posted by Tyggs PVP focused kinda sums it up. There are plenty of games that fufill the pvp itch with very little barrier to entry. PVP has been done much better in other genres and is usually heavily botched in MMOs.
There are no other games that offer large scale PvP like MMOs do, and the ones that get it right are far more rewarding than "PvP" games in other genres.
Fighting enemies over control of resources such as gold mines, lumber mills, etc would be very interesting. I'm not familiar with the AoC Towers but does it work like a silo for resources? If so that could introduce another interesting PvP option.
Interesting way to describe it you did there. You might be correct!
I tried to find the Tower System explained on the web. But it was only on the drawing board and didnt make it as originally thought out to the game. At the bottom of the post you can read what I found at least.
The first Game Director had a vision for AoC to draw from RTS games. For PvE it was something called Hiving, where a npc city would start to build close to you (maybe your pve city) and you would have to fight an invasion.
For PvP it was the Tower System or maybe to be more precise The Resource Areas part of it. I pictured it a bit like Arathi Basin in WoW in Open World except you get to keep the resources, and those resources was meant to craft PvP gear and possibly to work on Battle Keep.
The Resource Areas
These areas that are also rich in resources scattered around the zone will provide collectible resources for those who control them. Mines for iron, lumber mills for wood, prospecting stations along the river where gold can be dredged up and quarries for stone.
At any given time one or more of these locations will be active for players who control them to collect resources from. Whoever controls the flag for the resource point will earn resources for as long as they manage to hold the flag.
All the latest games made by Mythic/Jacobs were rubbish. Warhammer is one of the few MMORPGs that was actually shut down. Mythic got shut down too now. And even DAoC never passed 250k players at it's prime.
Yet you still think that those guys, Jacobs leading, can make a good game with a crappy crowdfunding budget?
I have a bridge to sell, it's in the San Francisco bay, beautiful and golden, please send me a private message if interested.
Every company touched by EA dies, WAR despite being released half finished had some great ideas behind it. DAoC was one of the biggest players in its time, all you're doing here is making yourself look ignorant.
The only one making himself looking "ignorant" is you here, kid. I've been playing those games since their beginning, and DAoC barely got 250k players when EQ had over 650k.
Everquest never reached 650k subscribers at there height they reached 450K+ players. A simple google search would have given you this information.
All the latest games made by Mythic/Jacobs were rubbish. Warhammer is one of the few MMORPGs that was actually shut down. Mythic got shut down too now. And even DAoC never passed 250k players at it's prime.
Yet you still think that those guys, Jacobs leading, can make a good game with a crappy crowdfunding budget?
I have a bridge to sell, it's in the San Francisco bay, beautiful and golden, please send me a private message if interested.
Every company touched by EA dies, WAR despite being released half finished had some great ideas behind it. DAoC was one of the biggest players in its time, all you're doing here is making yourself look ignorant.
The only one making himself looking "ignorant" is you here, kid. I've been playing those games since their beginning, and DAoC barely got 250k players when EQ had over 650k.
Everquest never reached 650k subscribers at there height they reached 450K+ players. A simple google search would have given you this information.
Hype is not really even needed, the "beta" game will be in full effect for a long time during development. You'll get to see it progress as it goes for very little money. I'm an IT tester myself, so i've been involved for a very long time. I could log in and play at any time i wanted for the last month. The game is advancing, is all i can say. Either wait till the end and try it out in 17 months, or get in earlier and check it out. It's your choice. No hype is needed, i can say with confidence, the game will release.This is not some studio in europe with no experience, like the darkfall creators. This is an actual millionaire game designer with other millionaire partners producing a game. Whether you like it or not, well that's your choice. I think you will see more smaller "non" pvp stuff pushed in, whether it's killing certain mobs in the depths that produce realm needed stabilizer regents etc.. This will be a pure RVR game, but i suspect it'll have some need to not kill people to progress. The depths will be a huge part of that. 17 months is a very long time, if you saw what we saw 3 months ago and where things are now, you'd be hyped
Just sayin~ Hopefully i didn't violate anything, i don't think i did.
Hype is not really even needed, the "beta" game will be in full effect for a long time during development. You'll get to see it progress as it goes for very little money. I'm an IT tester myself, so i've been involved for a very long time. I could log in and play at any time i wanted for the last month. The game is advancing, is all i can say. Either wait till the end and try it out in 17 months, or get in earlier and check it out. It's your choice. No hype is needed, i can say with confidence, the game will release.This is not some studio in europe with no experience, like the darkfall creators. This is an actual millionaire game designer with other millionaire partners producing a game. Whether you like it or not, well that's your choice. I think you will see more smaller "non" pvp stuff pushed in, whether it's killing certain mobs in the depths that produce realm needed stabilizer regents etc.. This will be a pure RVR game, but i suspect it'll have some need to not kill people to progress. The depths will be a huge part of that. 17 months is a very long time, if you saw what we saw 3 months ago and where things are now, you'd be hyped
Just sayin~ Hopefully i didn't violate anything, i don't think i did.
Thanks for the insight and no I don't think you violated any NDA.
I'm all for non-stop RvR/PvP but even I realize that you need some non RvR activities in game to keep things fresh or on slow RvR nights to progress in other ways. I honestly don't mind some PvE quests here and there if our guild crafter needs a certain reagent to make me a sword and we need to go to the end of the map and go kill some mob out in the open RvR world (or we need to farm gold or some other resource needed towards our guild house - not sure just tossing ideas out). Knowing that on the way we're most likely to encounter enemies is what makes "dangerous PvE" ok in an RvR game. I also wouldn't mind a weekly raid or event that happens in The Depths and we have to go kill some huge raid boss to get something for the realm....meanwhile the other two realms want to kill the same huge raid boss. That leads to chaotic RvR which is usually fun. Even if you're not into zerging or raiding your 8 man can stay on the outskirts and wreak havoc on the other two realms. It's a win win for many different RvR playstyles.
Originally posted by Scorchien its very simple.. No PVE .. they have alienated a large player base with this foolish development decision ...
Actually the No PVE, in the sense you're thinking of with levelling, raiding, dungeons, etc, is being done intentionally. This is an RvR game for RvR'ers. This game will never try to please everyone with an amusement park type game which is actually good and refreshing.
Originally posted by Scorchien its very simple.. No PVE .. they have alienated a large player base with this foolish development decision ...
Actually the No PVE, in the sense you're thinking of with levelling, raiding, dungeons, etc, is being done intentionally. This is an RvR game for RvR'ers. This game will never try to please everyone with an amusement park type game which is actually good and refreshing.
And that is probably why the amount of interest is not that great, never mind that the game is probably years away still, but its aimed at a relatively small group of player types, no PVE means no PVE players.. so even the ones who might have been interested in the PVP on a casual basis will just pass this one by without a second glance, even Eve Online supports the PVE player, so you can probably expect a smaller playerbase than in Eve Online..
[snip]This is not some studio in europe with no experience, [snip]
I think Europe can succeed just as well. In fact Europe has helped push the MMO genre forward with titles like AoC which brought combosystem,DX10/11, rts elements etc, to MMO.
Im Hyped up about unchained! I have been for years.. wishing it would come into existence!
I just hope its not hard to fit into these pre-established guilds of close friends and such. Since ive lost all of my internet buddies through divorce and not finding a good game to get into these last few years.
It will always be a small niche community that will play the game and then it will die a horrible death when the next PvP game comes out.
This game is DESIGNED to be a niche game and to be sustainable as such. There are enough people interested in RvR/PvP to support the game, and just because it's not for you doesn't mean it's going to "die a horrible death." It still baffles me why people come to CU forums and complain about it not having PvE. This is not a PvE game, get it through your heads. It's very refreshing to me for them to be putting out a game that is new and different than everything else out there. I love RvR/PvP, and I have a job and a life.. I don't want to be forced into raid night twice a week or endlessly running the same dungeons over and over just to be competitive in PvP. If you want PvE, then you are not part of the target audience. Live with it.
Apologies if I come off as harsh. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I'm just so tired of the endless debate about PvE in CU. You wouldn't go to the forums of a full PvE game and complain about the lack of PvP because it's not supposed to be there. Stop coming here and whining about the lack of PvE.
It will always be a small niche community that will play the game and then it will die a horrible death when the next PvP game comes out.
This game is DESIGNED to be a niche game and to be sustainable as such. There are enough people interested in RvR/PvP to support the game, and just because it's not for you doesn't mean it's going to "die a horrible death." It still baffles me why people come to CU forums and complain about it not having PvE. This is not a PvE game, get it through your heads. It's very refreshing to me for them to be putting out a game that is new and different than everything else out there. I love RvR/PvP, and I have a job and a life.. I don't want to be forced into raid night twice a week or endlessly running the same dungeons over and over just to be competitive in PvP. If you want PvE, then you are not part of the target audience. Live with it.
Apologies if I come off as harsh. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I'm just so tired of the endless debate about PvE in CU. You wouldn't go to the forums of a full PvE game and complain about the lack of PvP because it's not supposed to be there. Stop coming here and whining about the lack of PvE.
I'm pretty sure he wasn't complaining about the lack of PvE. He was simply pointing out that the lack of PvE means a very small potential player base, and thus the reason for the lack of hype.
Comments
How do you think players will build their houses, guild house an towers? Can they do that with their regular PvP character or do you think they need to log a crafter class they have as an alt?
How did this work i DAOC? Could PvPers craft?
It's a niche game for a niche player base so of course not everyone will love or care about it. Also others have said since it is in its infancy stages there wont be insane amounts of hype yet (as with a lot of other MMOs).
As soon as you start seeing in depth gameplay you will see people starting to become drawn in and possibly even break the niche idea surrounding the PvP game.
I get information sent directly to my email as I am a backer..
Its true that its a PVP game so that kind of cuts down on who will play it, the devs are fine with that as they know what they want to make and they know they wont have wow numbers.
Myself I enjoy pvp games so am looking forward to this but its still qutie some time off.
This is just my guess at this point but I'm picturing your guild crafter(s) (crafting class) needs certain resources for whatever they're making and the resources are readily available far out on the rvr map amongst some pve mobs. So we form a group and go out to this location and start killing mobs. Since you're out in the open I assume you'll have to be aware of enemies at any time which adds an element of danger to the pve farming. You aquire said resources and your Crafter starts building something which may need assistance or just to protect him from enemies until he's done. Resources may also come from killing enemies, who knows.
MJ has stated that every toon, Crafter or not, will have some "basic" crafting capabilities such as minor repairs to armour, making basic arrows, etc. I have a feeling that the Crafter class will be the only one who will be able to make actual structures such as guild houses - you may even need several Crafters, who knows. MJ stated that this Crafter class exists for those who don't necessarily want to fight but would rather run the economy, make our gear, sell it, etc.
In DAoC PvPers could craft and go to max crafting level. While it was rare to craft on your main PvP toon (most did this on alts) it was completely possible. Personally, I don't see the appeal in strictly playing a non-fighting toon such as a Crafter - especially in a PvP/RvR game - and I picture many guilds will need to figure out rather reluctantly who will make the Crafter toon to equip and build for the guild.
DAOC (retired): RR11 Merc
Upcoming: CU, Wasteland 2, Eternity, Planescape
Hmm... i all honestly you are wrong. A lot of pvp player do play almost all kind of pvp games, be it FPS, RTS, MOBAs or some MMORPGs. And PvP in MMORPGs was more or less not so successful because it is in most games a afterthough and sucks that way. Those which actually focus more on PvP are in almost all cases indy games with a lot of other problems, which is the main reason why they are not so popular.
A lot of DAoC player played afterwards GW1 and now MOBAs, and most of them played more or less any pvp game to different degrees. Those focusing more on the tactical/strategical aspect prefering more RTS, MOBAs or MMORPGs, and those more focusing on the twitch aspect play more likely more FPSs.. nevertheless the usual pvp player play all of them, just prefers the one or the other a bit more.. as long as the a worth playing.. and that can not be said about a lot of MMORPGs, when it comes down to pvp.
And the next thing.. pvp players and battlegrounds. Truth is.. that almost all pvp players hate or at least don't like battlegrounds. Most players playing games with battleground and do battlegrounds are pve players, and most of those actually realizing that they enjoy pvp more switch to another game.. most likely nowadays a MOBA. Because the actual gameplay in most battlegrounds is a joke, the tactical depth is almost not there, and on top of that a lot of them are heavy item dependent, which requires a lot of PvE.
Look, a lot of pvp players look for games with a more persistent world, but is almost not one. Just a list of a few even worth mentioning, and why the actually are not that favored for pvp players:
- DAoC. Was actually quite good. The in the beginning long leveling requirement was a little bit of a entry barrier, but some took it and afterwards you could focus on your pvp game, and it was't that bad as it. With ToA they ruined it for most pvp players with the next added item requirement and withit pve requirement.
- Shadowbane. Theoretically not bad. But the execution was a joke. I just say sb.exe errors.. not to talk about the subpar graphics and the immense lag on larger battles.
- EvE. One point. The combat sucks. And it is too much meta, and not enough smaller scale pvp, and those without a purpose.
- DF. Indy. A lot of shortcomings. And it is more or less only large scale pvp. Similar to EvE, but worst. You have to be in a large guild.
So that's basicly, when it comes down to PvP in MMORPGs.. all others are more or less just added battlegrounds/arenas, which deliver a lot less than any MOBA, or other game. and don't offer the persistence(in pvp). Ok.. you could add GW2, and GW1 was actually a successful pvp game(though not a MMO, as all MOBAs), but the GW2 battlegrounds offer less tactical battles compared to GW1 and the WvW is not really worth mentioning either. The map is overall to small, it only comes down to keep flipping, not enough room for smaller scale or more tactical interesting battles.
Ok.. and i could add Planetside 1 & 2. Planetside 1 was actually really good, but i guess somewhat ahead of its time, with not enough advertising. Planetside 2(somewhat dumbed down to PS1) is actually ok. But it is not a lot more than let's say Battlefield, because in my mind they could have done a lot more and a lot better in the persistent world and feeling.(PS1 got it better to be honest)
But it is nothing new, that the industry didn't recognize pvp and it's appeal in almost any genre. FPS? Someone have to make a mod(CS) to really utilize pvp for FPS games. Afterwards the industry made a lot. The same with MOBAs, at first it was a Warcraft3 Mod, before the industry realized how many actually want a pvp game foremost. Now we get hundreds of them. And i guess it will be not that much different with MMOs.. will be those PvP MMOs MMORPGs? Maybe, to some degree, but not what the usual PvE player would expect.
But i do understand, that most non PvP players can't imagine what pvp players want.. and that there are actually a lot of us. (just add all MOBA players, all pvp FPS players and all pvp RTS players together and you will get a very huge number of players).
By the way.. another game ahead of it's time was Savage2.. and a game like Savage2(or parts of it) may be the next evolutionary step for MOBA's pvp wise. Or and more likely another sub genre.
It's no secret that DAoC didn't quite know how it struck magic when it came to RvR but it worked. It worked in the sense of when the game launched it was a clean slate RvR wise and if you were a zerger you zerged, if you were a stealther you did small scale, if you were into team coordinated fighting you did 8 man, if you were into realm defense you played the keep siege/defense game.....point is it had something for everyone - many different forms of PvP. It wasn't until New Frontiers that the game suddenly started trying to force a certain playstyle on everyone that drove people away. WAR was similar as well in that it forced a certain play style and made zerging the only way to play the game.
In order for CU to be successful I feel they just need to keep things open and not very structured. Yes bigger guilds will zerg and claim a piece of the map but then they will be busy dealing with other big zerg guilds trying to take their land. Meanwhile, 8 mans will remain satisfied and engaged with intercepting these zergs, roaming about the map, possibly claiming their own map pieces to draw out enemies, etc. DAoC RvR/PvP at its best time (Shrouded Isles expac) was just an open canvas of RvR possibilities with little structure. If CU can recapture that feeling it will be very successful and draw many different types of PvPers. If it becomes too structured it will just be another WAR.
DAOC (retired): RR11 Merc
Upcoming: CU, Wasteland 2, Eternity, Planescape
To your first paragraph: Like I have said in other posts I am really looking forward to see the next MMO pick up the Tower system from AoC. Where your guild by controlling a territory with a mine in, or lumber mill etc. would automatically get an influx of materials for the crafters in very small numbers though for balance reasons, but it would be really fun and add to immersion. So nice if they implement this in addition to the ways of collecting that you describe. Fighting over resources gathered and loosing them to the enemy and retaking it can sure be really exciting and would be something to look forward to.
However often gathering resources and running back and forth with it can be a bit drawn out too.
While giving PvPers basic basic crafting is better that nothing, atm I think it is to little. in TESO being able to craft gives some nice spice to leveling experience. I think I would be way less motivated for leveling hadn't it been for the nice crafting breaks form leveling. And like I said before when there is no PvP you need to have something else for variation in there.
And by the way when they talk about housing I guess they mean player houses as well (and it sound a bit strange that PvPers can not have that).
Yea I agree with you that it is way more fun to play a character that also can fight. And I do not think pc games should add chores. Like you say one guy will have to be nice to the guild and level a character that only can craft so that the guild can have state of the art guild house etc. although he also would like to take part in the action.
Fighting enemies over control of resources such as gold mines, lumber mills, etc would be very interesting. I'm not familiar with the AoC Towers but does it work like a silo for resources? If so that could introduce another interesting PvP option.
DAOC (retired): RR11 Merc
Upcoming: CU, Wasteland 2, Eternity, Planescape
There are no other games that offer large scale PvP like MMOs do, and the ones that get it right are far more rewarding than "PvP" games in other genres.
Interesting way to describe it you did there. You might be correct!
I tried to find the Tower System explained on the web. But it was only on the drawing board and didnt make it as originally thought out to the game. At the bottom of the post you can read what I found at least.
The first Game Director had a vision for AoC to draw from RTS games. For PvE it was something called Hiving, where a npc city would start to build close to you (maybe your pve city) and you would have to fight an invasion.
For PvP it was the Tower System or maybe to be more precise The Resource Areas part of it. I pictured it a bit like Arathi Basin in WoW in Open World except you get to keep the resources, and those resources was meant to craft PvP gear and possibly to work on Battle Keep.
The Resource Areas
These areas that are also rich in resources scattered around the zone will provide collectible resources for those who control them. Mines for iron, lumber mills for wood, prospecting stations along the river where gold can be dredged up and quarries for stone.
At any given time one or more of these locations will be active for players who control them to collect resources from. Whoever controls the flag for the resource point will earn resources for as long as they manage to hold the flag.
More can be read here:
http://www.mmorpgforum.com/archive/index.php/t-222.html
Everquest never reached 650k subscribers at there height they reached 450K+ players. A simple google search would have given you this information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest
Why do people on this website just make stuff up and pass it off as fact?
"
Why do people on the Internet just make stuff up and pass it off as fact?
"
Slight correction.
DAOC (retired): RR11 Merc
Upcoming: CU, Wasteland 2, Eternity, Planescape
Hype is not really even needed, the "beta" game will be in full effect for a long time during development. You'll get to see it progress as it goes for very little money. I'm an IT tester myself, so i've been involved for a very long time. I could log in and play at any time i wanted for the last month. The game is advancing, is all i can say. Either wait till the end and try it out in 17 months, or get in earlier and check it out. It's your choice. No hype is needed, i can say with confidence, the game will release.This is not some studio in europe with no experience, like the darkfall creators. This is an actual millionaire game designer with other millionaire partners producing a game. Whether you like it or not, well that's your choice. I think you will see more smaller "non" pvp stuff pushed in, whether it's killing certain mobs in the depths that produce realm needed stabilizer regents etc.. This will be a pure RVR game, but i suspect it'll have some need to not kill people to progress. The depths will be a huge part of that. 17 months is a very long time, if you saw what we saw 3 months ago and where things are now, you'd be hyped
Just sayin~ Hopefully i didn't violate anything, i don't think i did.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
Thanks for the insight and no I don't think you violated any NDA.
I'm all for non-stop RvR/PvP but even I realize that you need some non RvR activities in game to keep things fresh or on slow RvR nights to progress in other ways. I honestly don't mind some PvE quests here and there if our guild crafter needs a certain reagent to make me a sword and we need to go to the end of the map and go kill some mob out in the open RvR world (or we need to farm gold or some other resource needed towards our guild house - not sure just tossing ideas out). Knowing that on the way we're most likely to encounter enemies is what makes "dangerous PvE" ok in an RvR game. I also wouldn't mind a weekly raid or event that happens in The Depths and we have to go kill some huge raid boss to get something for the realm....meanwhile the other two realms want to kill the same huge raid boss. That leads to chaotic RvR which is usually fun. Even if you're not into zerging or raiding your 8 man can stay on the outskirts and wreak havoc on the other two realms. It's a win win for many different RvR playstyles.
DAOC (retired): RR11 Merc
Upcoming: CU, Wasteland 2, Eternity, Planescape
Actually the No PVE, in the sense you're thinking of with levelling, raiding, dungeons, etc, is being done intentionally. This is an RvR game for RvR'ers. This game will never try to please everyone with an amusement park type game which is actually good and refreshing.
DAOC (retired): RR11 Merc
Upcoming: CU, Wasteland 2, Eternity, Planescape
And that is probably why the amount of interest is not that great, never mind that the game is probably years away still, but its aimed at a relatively small group of player types, no PVE means no PVE players.. so even the ones who might have been interested in the PVP on a casual basis will just pass this one by without a second glance, even Eve Online supports the PVE player, so you can probably expect a smaller playerbase than in Eve Online..
I think Europe can succeed just as well. In fact Europe has helped push the MMO genre forward with titles like AoC which brought combosystem,DX10/11, rts elements etc, to MMO.
Im Hyped up about unchained! I have been for years.. wishing it would come into existence!
I just hope its not hard to fit into these pre-established guilds of close friends and such. Since ive lost all of my internet buddies through divorce and not finding a good game to get into these last few years.
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
PvP only is why there is no hype for this game.
It will always be a small niche community that will play the game and then it will die a horrible death when the next PvP game comes out.
This game is DESIGNED to be a niche game and to be sustainable as such. There are enough people interested in RvR/PvP to support the game, and just because it's not for you doesn't mean it's going to "die a horrible death." It still baffles me why people come to CU forums and complain about it not having PvE. This is not a PvE game, get it through your heads. It's very refreshing to me for them to be putting out a game that is new and different than everything else out there. I love RvR/PvP, and I have a job and a life.. I don't want to be forced into raid night twice a week or endlessly running the same dungeons over and over just to be competitive in PvP. If you want PvE, then you are not part of the target audience. Live with it.
Apologies if I come off as harsh. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I'm just so tired of the endless debate about PvE in CU. You wouldn't go to the forums of a full PvE game and complain about the lack of PvP because it's not supposed to be there. Stop coming here and whining about the lack of PvE.
I'm pretty sure he wasn't complaining about the lack of PvE. He was simply pointing out that the lack of PvE means a very small potential player base, and thus the reason for the lack of hype.