Am I going to Hell?

Laserwolf · January 2006

I find that I like to ponder historical "What Ifs?" like would accepted racism and segregation have ended in the 19th century if the Confederacy had won the Civil War, and would we be united again by now?

One of my usual ponders involves God, Satan, and Jesus. As far as I know Satan or Lucifer was one of God's angels who disagreed with him and led a sort of rebellion against him which ended with God as the victor and Lucifer cast into hell. We all know that in the Old Testament God was a vengeful god with "an eye for an eye" and such. I remember I read one story about a soldier in an army that God led to victory over some city but told the soldiers that for his help no one would be able to loot anything at all from the city. 1 soldier disobeyed by looting food to feed his starving family and was struck down by god. I can't remember if God killed his family too or not.

My point is that God wasn't the soft Teddy Bear we now think of him as. So what if Lucifer only wanted to overthrow him because he considered god too vengeful? What if Lucifer wanted to rule over man with a softer hand and more forgiveness than God. What if Hell is a better place to spend eternity than Heaven? Sure the bible describes it as a terrible place but we all know that history is written by the winner.

Another thought along the same line involves Jesus. Anyone else noticed that Jesus seemed to preach against the Old Testament. Instead of an Eye for an Eye we now have Turn the Other Cheek. Jesus was almost entirely about forgiveness. So what if Jesus wasn't the son of God, but rather the son of Lucifer? Sure he said he was the son of God but maybe because Lucifer considered himself God or had Jesus call himself the son of God so more people who accept his message.

Just thoughts I get after reading Harry Potter books.

ScottElwood · January 2006

What if...... Clicky

modjoe86 · January 2006

Interesting thought, I'll let the Bible thumpers go nuts over it.

DeltaMaze · January 2006

Originally posted by ScottElwood
What if...... Clicky

lol Family guy movie, and anyway I personally don't believe in the devil and I believe in a supreme being, i'm what you call a deist. Deism isn't really a religion but just a belief.

A Deist is "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason." as defined by the Webster dictionary.

TallonX · January 2006

Wow.... that's a really interesting point! good thought man!

I never really thought of heaven and hell in bliblical terms. and just kinda thought of hell as being away from god, and heaven was just being w/ god. there is no real hell or satan, just an embodiment of lonliness. i never belive what the bible says because it was written by men, not god.

*DISCLAMER* THese are my oppinions! I Was not claming them to be fact in ANY way!

Aldaron · January 2006

Originally posted by Laserwolf
I find that I like to ponder historical "What Ifs?" like would accepted racism and segregation have ended in the 19th century if the Confederacy had won the Civil War, and would we be united again by now?

There still is segregation to an extent. And racism is still rampant. What do you think things like affirmative action are?

The civil war was never about racism or slavery. It was about states rights. Depending on what Presidents came after Jefferson David would of depended if slavery was abolished as quickly if the Confederacy would have won: Afterall, it was the 13th ammendment, not the civil war, that abolished slavery.

One of my usual ponders involves God, Satan, and Jesus. As far as I know Satan or Lucifer was one of God's angels who disagreed with him and led a sort of rebellion against him which ended with God as the victor and Lucifer cast into hell.

Yah he disagreed with him...He wanted to be head honcho(sp?).

We all know that in the Old Testament God was a vengeful god with "an eye for an eye" and such.

Different laws for different times.

I remember I read one story about a soldier in an army that God led to victory over some city but told the soldiers that for his help no one would be able to loot anything at all from the city. 1 soldier disobeyed by looting food to feed his starving family and was struck down by god. I can't remember if God killed his family too or not.

Verses? Because the only situation I know of that was even REMOTELY similar to this was the fact they had a rule for the most part that all gold & silver would go to the temples.

One guy disobeyed took some gold & silver idols and the sort, and so they stoned him. I don't remember anywhere in the bible about "stealing food for his starving family". If you're going to argue this, you'll need verses.

My point is that God wasn't the soft Teddy Beat we now think of him as.

Of course he isn't.

So what if Lucifer only wanted to overthrow him because he considered god too vengeful?

Hypothetical...Completely illogical and unfounded though. Apparantly you haven't read many verses on the descriptive nature of God, Versus the descriptive nature of Satan.

What if Lucifer wanted to rule over man with a softer hand and more forgiveness than God. What if Hell is a better place to spend eternity than Heaven? Sure the bible describes it as a terrible place but we all know that history is written by the winner.

Where...Where are you getting this? A softer hand? More forgiveness than God?

C'mon...You don't even have anything to back this up. You're almost just trying to be abstract for the hell of it.

Just read the Bible a bit more. It seems your taking up these theological philosophies based off of old Sunday school stories you heart.

Another thought along the same line involves Jesus. Anyone else noticed that Jesus seemed to preach against the Old Testament. Instead of an Eye for an Eye we now have Turn the Other Cheek. Jesus was almost entirely about forgiveness. So what if Jesus wasn't the son of God, but rather the son of Lucifer?

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matthew 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

Matthew 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Matthew 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Matthew 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

C'mon man...This is just silly.

Sure he said he was the son of God but maybe because Lucifer considered himself God or had Jesus call himself the son of God so more people who accept his message.

Of course Satan probably considers himself a god. For most intents and purposes, he is a god. But there is a HUGE difference between being a god, and being Eloha, YHVH. In other words, the ultimate creator of the universe. He did have a name you know. Just in our english translation they simplified it into just being "Lord" or "God".

Just thoughts I get after reading Harry Potter books.

Gideon · January 2006

Notice Aldaron.. He didnt say it was his belief. He simply said it was a thought. Dont tell him your beliefs are correct if he thinks otherwise and if it is his belief. Prove that the Bible is correct. You cant. Just like he cant prove his theory is correct. Although your theory is more supportive to some the Bible is just another book. Who knows?

Aldaron · January 2006

Originally posted by Gideon

Notice Aldaron.. He didnt say it was his belief. He simply said it was a thought. Dont tell him your beliefs are correct if he thinks otherwise and if it is his belief. Prove that the Bible is correct. You cant. Just like he cant prove his theory is correct. Although your theory is more supportive to some the Bible is just another book. Who knows?

And I was rebutting. This has nothing to do with proving the historical accuracy of the Bible. It has to do with rebutting what he said could be found in the Bible.

Gideon · January 2006

Originally posted by Aldaron
Originally posted by Gideon
Notice Aldaron.. He didnt say it was his belief. He simply said it was a thought. Dont tell him your beliefs are correct if he thinks otherwise and if it is his belief. Prove that the Bible is correct. You cant. Just like he cant prove his theory is correct. Although your theory is more supportive to some the Bible is just another book. Who knows?And I was rebutting. This has nothing to do with proving the historical accuracy of the Bible. It has to do with rebutting what he said could be found in the Bible.

"Where...Where are you getting this? A softer hand? More forgiveness than God?

C'mon...You don't even have anything to back this up. You're almost just trying to be abstract for the hell of it.

Just read the Bible a bit more. It seems your taking up these theological philosophies based off of old Sunday school stories you heart."

Tells me that you are applying your beliefs and they are toward the Bible. He only said it was a thought and that the Bible may be incorrect.

Kiamde · January 2006

Believe it or not, the Anti-Christ is indeed a savior of the Christians. Without him, Christians would not accend to heaven.

To do good, sometimes you must accept evils.

Aldaron · January 2006

Originally posted by Gideon

Tells me that you are applying your beliefs and they are toward the Bible. He only said it was a thought and that the Bible may be incorrect.

Yes I was, and no, he totally wasn't. He was applying stories out of the Bible trying to back up his claim.

If he was going with the "The bible is incorrect", then there would be no Satan. And his point would of been made completely pointless.

Gideon · January 2006

Originally posted by Aldaron
Originally posted by Gideon
Tells me that you are applying your beliefs and they are toward the Bible. He only said it was a thought and that the Bible may be incorrect.
Yes I was, and no, he totally wasn't. He was applying stories out of the Bible trying to back up his claim.
If he was going with the "The bible is incorrect", then there would be no Satan. And his point would of been made completely pointless.

I understand that. The bible may be incorrect. Not 100% right. Maybe only some parts are correct.

DrunkenW · January 2006

I love cruising these forums at 7 am ::::06::

Your subject is interresting but as I see it indiscussible.
Good and evil is(according to the bible) dogmas. They can not be questioned, atleast not by a human.

Vriel · January 2006

Originally posted by DeltaMaze
Originally posted by ScottElwood
What if...... Clicky

lol Family guy movie, and anyway I personally don't believe in the devil and I believe in a supreme being, i'm what you call a deist. Deism isn't really a religion but just a belief.

A Deist is "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason." as defined by the Webster dictionary.

So that's what I am! It's funny, because recently I've been considering searching for spiritual enlightenment. I just so happen to have stumbled along this post and discovered that I am a Dieist. I've had this belief as long as I can remember, but never knew what it was called(nor had the desire to find out until recently). I have honestly never even heard of this word till tonite. Thank you, DeltaMaze, you have truly enlightend me, and saved me from the inner turmoil of self discovery.

Before you read the following comments I would like you to know my stance on religious tolerance. I believe that anyone and everyone has the right to believe in whatever they choose, and that no one has the right to force beliefs onto someone else. If you want to worship the Flying Spagetti Monster then I'm fine by that, as long as you don't force it upon me, lol.

For the most part, these are my opinions.(only two comments are based on fact):
I'm sorry relegious guys, but how does mankind assume he can write a religious book such as the Quran or the Bible. I understand that these books are suposedly God's words spoken through ordinary humans, but nowaday's you'd be sent to a looney bin for trying to do something like that. To me, and many text books, all religion is, is a form of psychology. It also happens to be true that psychology is a form of control. Ask yourself, what is a better way then religion, to control the thoughts and behaviors of a large populace. There is none! For the fundies, you will scoff at this, but it is true. Before you shoot me down, I'd like you to know something. I think what Jesus said and believed is and was very important, to the development of mankinds intelect. The same goes for people like Muhammad and Ghandi alike. Without religion we would not be where we are today(I could argue the contrary, but I will not for the sake of time).

Also about heaven and hell. Didn't the former pope even say that heaven and hell are not actually physical places, but more of a metaphor to show one's distance or closeness to god?(something like that, although I remember him saying that hell is not a physical place) So If Lucifer is the ruler of hell, and hell does not physicaly exist why would lucifer? Wouldn't he exist in a metaphorical form also? Of course if this were true then that could also mean that God is a metaphor. Personaly, I believe that heaven and hell are a subconcsious trapping of the soul in the afterlife. This of course is blasphemy, and I shall burn for all eternity for questioning a 2000 year old moral story.

People should behave themselves just because... not for the fear of burning in a place that no one here or on the planet has ever been too. Sorry if my opinions offend anyone, I can come off as kind of stern when it comes to this subject.

I could go on for pages and pages when it comes to this kind of stuff, but I'll save you all the torture lol. ::::01::

Aldaron · January 2006

Originally posted by DrunkenW

Good and evil is(according to the bible) dogmas. They can not be questioned, atleast not by a human.

Thank you! I was trying to put that into words. I was thinking the exact same thing, but just couldn't think of how to aptly explain it.

moonfog · January 2006

Originally posted by Laserwolf

I find that I like to ponder historical "What Ifs?" like would accepted racism and segregation have ended in the 19th century if the Confederacy had won the Civil War, and would we be united again by now?
One of my usual ponders involves God, Satan, and Jesus. As far as I know Satan or Lucifer was one of God's angels who disagreed with him and led a sort of rebellion against him which ended with God as the victor and Lucifer cast into hell. We all know that in the Old Testament God was a vengeful god with "an eye for an eye" and such. I remember I read one story about a soldier in an army that God led to victory over some city but told the soldiers that for his help no one would be able to loot anything at all from the city. 1 soldier disobeyed by looting food to feed his starving family and was struck down by god. I can't remember if God killed his family too or not.
My point is that God wasn't the soft Teddy Beat we now think of him as. So what if Lucifer only wanted to overthrow him because he considered god too vengeful? What if Lucifer wanted to rule over man with a softer hand and more forgiveness than God. What if Hell is a better place to spend eternity than Heaven? Sure the bible describes it as a terrible place but we all know that history is written by the winner.
Another thought along the same line involves Jesus. Anyone else noticed that Jesus seemed to preach against the Old Testament. Instead of an Eye for an Eye we now have Turn the Other Cheek. Jesus was almost entirely about forgiveness. So what if Jesus wasn't the son of God, but rather the son of Lucifer? Sure he said he was the son of God but maybe because Lucifer considered himself God or had Jesus call himself the son of God so more people who accept his message.

Just thoughts I get after reading Harry Potter books.

Well first off the Bible and God and Jesus and all that is not factual. Its all faith. BIG difference. Christianity is in other words not true but a faith issue. Its a mythical figgure.

BUT if you do belive then ok.

That said GOD has only ONE sin that will get you to HELL it is even mentioned 2 times! Its the unforgivabul sin:
Denying god. I quote from the Bible :

Luke 12:10
Everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spitit will not be forgiven.

Mark 3:29
Whosoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of eternal sin.

Kind God? I think not. In the Bible Jesus also says homosexuals are to be KILLED.

Leviticus 18:22
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act. They must be put to DEATH.

HECK the Jesus figgure is just a "power grip". Cheack this one out:

Luke 19:27 (jesus said this)
Those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them- bring them here and KILL them in front of me.

Umbrood · January 2006

Originally posted by Kiamde

Believe it or not, the Anti-Christ is indeed a savior of the Christians. Without him, Christians would not accend to heaven.
To do good, sometimes you must accept evils.

Hehe, that reminds of that Vampire movie with Eddie Murphy, were he makes the exact same point to a bunch of religious people, they all end up singing_

"Evil is good, YEAH", in the best Gospel fashion.

Anyhow, as I see it only thoose who actually believe on God and are christians can go to Hell.

So I am pretty safe.

Kiamde · January 2006

Anyhow, as I see it only thoose who actually believe on God and are christians can go to Hell.
So I am pretty safe.

You aren't too bright, are you?

katee · January 2006

Here's what would of happened if if the Confederacy had won the Civil War...

Play trailer-- http://www.csathemovie.com/

Laserwolf · January 2006

Originally posted by Aldaron

There still is segregation to an extent. And racism is still rampant. What do you think things like affirmative action are?
The civil war was never about racism or slavery. It was about states rights. Depending on what Presidents came after Jefferson David would of depended if slavery was abolished as quickly if the Confederacy would have won: After all, it was the 13th amendment, not the civil war, that abolished slavery.

I am fully aware racism and segregation still exist. That is why I said "accepted racism and segregation". As far as why I wonder if racism and segregation would have ended sooner has to do with my belief that it was prolonged due to the resentment the South felt after losing the Civil War. I don't think the Confederate States would have been able to hold on to slavery much longer anyway with all the changes going on at the end of the 19th century and due to influence from Europe. It seems to me that giving away something rather than having it taken from you would make you less bitter about it and make it easier for you to accept it.(Not that I believe slavery isn't worth abolishing forcibly) Also I believe by the 1920s-1940s we would again become one Nation. Especially if World War I and World War II still unfolded roughly the same way in Europe. definitely if Japan still attacked us(either North or South).

As far as my ponderings on the relationship between God, Lucifer, and Jesus: I have no interest in defending them even if I knew where to find the bible verses. These are just thoughts based on what are considered the simple facts of Christianity. I will say I am positive I read about the man being killed for stealing food for his family. In fact I am almost sure I read it in a "Precious Moments" version of the bible when I was younger. Something else to consider when quoting the bible as well. Even if God guided the thoughts and hands of those who original wrote the bible, what about the 100s or 1000s of monks and unknowns who translated it unsupervised throughout the Centuries.

zypherant · January 2006

Someone says know one can prove the bible or God is real. That is accurate.. But know one can prove He is not real.. just like know one can prove there is no heaven or hell. Looking around and seeing everything in this world.. is proof to me, that there has to be a Creator. I don't get public schools teaching evolution and crap... YOU CANNOT PROVE GOD IS NOT REAL!! just as I cannot prove He is real.. but uh.. HE IS the end

Dekron · January 2006

Originally posted by moonfog
Kind God? I think not. In the Bible Jesus also says homosexuals are to be KILLED.

Leviticus 18:22
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act. They must be put to DEATH.

Just a correction, Leviticus is in the original Hebrew Torah, Pentatuech, Old Testament, etc. Jesus did not say that, but God did. It was 1 of the 600 laws passed to Moses. I'm not going to debate this topic as has been many times, and most know of my agnostic/aethist beleifs. However, I am respectful to others beliefs. If anyone who posts is disrespectful or hateful towards others beliefs/thoughts then your post will be deleted and you will receive a warning/temp ban and this topic will be locked.

Be nice and you have no worries.

Adreal · January 2006

Well, I always find these threads interesting, so I couldn't resist...

I'd have to agree largely with Aldaron's post. Laserwolf, if you could give some verse references then that'd be good. I don't seem to remember anything specific that you described as a possibility of being in the Bible. I know about the guy that took some treasure and hid it. I forget what happens to him, but I get the impression that it wasn't good.

And different times do call for different rules. Example: If society was perfect and people were completely responsible and mature, then we wouldn't need rules.

My point is that God wasn't the soft Teddy Beat we now think of him as... What if Hell is a better place to spend eternity than Heaven?

I'm not even completely sure what hell is. It's a concept that I've been trying to grasp. The traditional view is that it is a place. Some people completely unaware of the Bible have gotten the impression that Satan is somehow ruler over hell... As far as I know, that's not the case. He is to be cast into hell (sort of restrained and punished for a period of time before he is released and then restrained and punished for eternity). I don't think that Satan's sin was trying to build and rule a greater kingdom, but that he saw his own glory (granted him by God) and then became proud, elevating himself higher than God. Pride can lead to many evils. I'm not going to judge GOD because of what little I know and understand of the world around me (much less of both Satan and God). All I know is that Lucifer sinned, became the enemy, was humbled to this earth, and that he is at war with God's creation, deceiving many to share in his own fate. That is what I presume to know by reading scripture.

Marcion and the marcionites of ancient days were sort of in the same predicament that you're in. They couldn't imagine Christ coming from the God described in the Old Testament, so Marcion thought that Christ must have come from the God of love rather than the overly strict God of the Old Testament. You're just taking it a step further. I think it's dangerous to draw similarities between Satan, Christ, and God (especially the Holy Spirit) when we know little to nothing about them. There were some 'teachers of religious law' that were drawing similarities (unknowingly) between 'the Prince of Demons' and 'the Holy Spirit' when they were intending to curse Christ instead, and (imo) they were very close to damning themselves to hell by their own words. So Christ warned them or rather informed them of their evil.

Anyone else noticed that Jesus seemed to preach against the Old Testament. Instead of an Eye for an Eye we now have Turn the Other Cheek.

God, himself, says that he would have made Israel great in the Old Testament if they had followed him. Christ is saying nothing less: Believe in me (accept his sacrifice, follow God, etc.) and you will have eternal life - do not believe in me (reject him and therefore God's substitute) and you have eternal damnation. The Old Testament sacrifices were leading up to Christ's sacrifice. The only way a man may be saved is by his righteousness in God's sight. Since we could never and can never achieve righteousness by our works, we are made righteous by our faith (I believe the Bible states this - or rather that 'Abraham was made righteous by his faith'). We are all sinners, but God counts us righteous if we have faith. God's justice in the Old Testament was born (sp?) on the heads of the animals as they were sacrificed. God's justice in the New Testament was born on the head of Christ as he was sacrificed. So what I think you have is the fulfillment of justice and the redemption of mankind.

Now if you think back to the Old Testament and to the enemies of Israel, we can assume that perhaps God knew that the enemies they were to drive from the land would not have believed in God to become righteous and turned from their sins. So knowing this, God may have went through with his justice and rid the land of them. There is another theory of gene contamination in which angels exercised an evil perversion in breeding with those of the land to contaminate humanity into a breed of deformed superheroic beings. At any rate, my knowledge is not perfect either. I could do with some references from verses and such, but the amount of knowledge I put forth would deal with a great deal of cross-referencing many passages to show my point and I don't have the time. I must be off.

Adreal · January 2006

Kind God? I think not. In the Bible Jesus also says homosexuals are to be KILLED.

Leviticus 18:22
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act. They must be put to DEATH.

What I gather from what you just posted of that verse is that if a man has sexual intercourse with another man, then they must both be put to death... As far as preserving whatever purity there is in God's creation, I would have to say that I'm for that. I think that their true selves could still be saved, but by their act they should no longer be allowed to live physically or else should live remotely from those who wish to follow God so that they would not pollute the land.

Good post, moonfog. It is my belief that as far as Christ goes - like Father like Son. I think Christ is probably as strict, disciplined, hard, and strong as God is - within the concept of the Trinity that is. But he is only strict for a reason. God will not tolerate sin; there must be a course of action to counter it - whatever that may be. Only is death the last course if all others fail (ie. rejection of Christ coupled with a sinful nature = death).

That said GOD has only ONE sin that will get you to HELL it is even mentioned 2 times! Its the unforgivabul sin: Denying god. I quote from the Bible :

I'm not exactly sure what 'blasphemy of the Holy Spirit' is. If it was just blasphemy of God or of Christ, then it would have said something like 'blasphemy of Elohiym (God as plural in Trinity?)', but it divides the Trinity up specifically and says that blasphemy against Christ is forgivable but not against the Holy Spirit. I'm somewhat apprehensive about posting on this since I certainly don't know for sure what it means. So that's about as far as I'll go in assessing this situation. All I know is that the blasphemy the teachers of religious law were committing was relating the Holy Spirit to a demon or to Satan and therefore since Satan cannot save, they were effectively saying that Christ was not who he was and that the Holy Spirit was not in him and was not able to give Christ power (including the power to save).

Ok. Got to get going again. Man am I late.

nthnaoun · January 2006

Originally posted by zypherant

Someone says know one can prove the bible or God is real. That is accurate.. But know one can prove He is not real.. just like know one can prove there is no heaven or hell. Looking around and seeing everything in this world.. is proof to me, that there has to be a Creator. I don't get public schools teaching evolution and crap... YOU CANNOT PROVE GOD IS NOT REAL!! just as I cannot prove He is real.. but uh.. HE IS the end

Many things in the Bible have been proven to actually happen. Several credible people has performed miracles through Jesus' name and has been spoken to by God. God has spoken to me and answered my prayers. I am not a credible source, but there are Doctors who could confirm that what I say is true. There are people who have witnessed God answering my prayers.

Through God I know the Bible is the one and only truth. My wife who has read some of the original Torah (Hebrew Bible) has confirmed that the King James version and NIV version does have some things in it that the original doesn't. Take that the way you wish. What is important is that you uphold Jesus' teachings and laws.

In otherwords Treat everyone the way you want to be treated, and love thy neigbhor as you do yourself. Love the Lord your God with all your strength etc etc.

Others may speculate on the matter and dismiss the evidence out of fear that the Bible is real, but I know the truth and I will tell anyone who will listen.

Arremus · January 2006

Riiiight...

Well, talking about what if's, answer me this one.

What if:
The night that the fellas were gathered together deciding what Gospels would get put into the Bible, a great fire rips through the buildings, trapping all inside, incinerating them AND the documents, the only copies.

Thus the Bible that would have been is destroyed entirely.

Where would that put you now?

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