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Neverwinter - from a great idea into another money grab

kresa3333kresa3333 Member UncommonPosts: 64

Hello guys so i finnaly decided to really try this game i got to the "endgame" with 2 chars and tried all the aspects in the game and i am pissed, and this is why,
This game got very fun combat and unique classes and it has a feature that could make it a very successfull game , called Foundry.
Why? Well the foundry lets u create new content for the game.
now why do i think it is so importent? Well just one idea from many but imagine a very advanced tool that lets the community to create cool pvp maps , hardcore dungeons , big raids actully anything people can think of. Now there are problems with doing that but i suggested many solutions on the forums and added many more ideas ( ofcourse i was ignored everytime because the company is only into making quick cash untill the next game they currently developing or so it seems ).
I gave my bigger vision but honestly even with the tool set they got now it is more then possible to create awsome pve content and instead of making it the highlite of the game they just dumped it behind some dark corner and kept creating more zones to do mindless dailly quests in.
I been playing those kind of games for many many years and never did i encounter a feature like this... it really hurts to see them throw it like some sick animal.
Features like this one can make a game the next big thing.. but those guys ( like must of the other companies ) just went on the safe path of making cash for the next game in development...
"If you want to make the big bucks u need to take risks" why stay shallow and follow the herd...
Anyhow they even got all the systems needed to make it work... things like dailiy eligability for most popular foundry quests... currency systems... honestly they can even make cash out of it... do what ever other ocmpany does , vip status for foundry access....
For conclusion i am writing this down only because i am frustrated because this game is fun and they actully found a golden egg in there and instead of using it they just throw it away...
I really hope that some other company take that golden egg and use it because i am very sure that if u nail that one ur game will swim in dollars.
and for neverwinter i can only say RIP
P.S I didnt talk much about the ideas and the ways to make it work because this post is allready long enough , but i hope i made my point clear, thanks for reading!

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Comments

  • BailoPan15BailoPan15 Member Posts: 410
    Originally posted by kresa3333

    Hello guys so i finnaly decided to really try this game i got to the "endgame" with 2 chars and tried all the aspects in the game and i am pissed, and this is why,
    This game got very fun combat and unique classes and it has a feature that could make it a very successfull game , called Foundry.
    Why? Well the foundry lets u create new content for the game.
    now why do i think it is so importent? Well just one idea from many but imagine a very advanced tool that lets the community to create cool pvp maps , hardcore dungeons , big raids actully anything people can think of. Now there are problems with doing that but i suggested many solutions on the forums and added many more ideas ( ofcourse i was ignored everytime because the company is only into making quick cash untill the next game they currently developing or so it seems ).
    I gave my bigger vision but honestly even with the tool set they got now it is more then possible to create awsome pve content and instead of making it the highlite of the game they just dumped it behind some dark corner and kept creating more zones to do mindless dailly quests in.
    I been playing those kind of games for many many years and never did i encounter a feature like this... it really hurts to see them throw it like some sick animal.
    Features like this one can make a game the next big thing.. but those guys ( like must of the other companies ) just went on the safe path of making cash for the next game in development...
    "If you want to make the big bucks u need to take risks" why stay shallow and follow the herd...
    Anyhow they even got all the systems needed to make it work... things like dailiy eligability for most popular foundry quests... currency systems... honestly they can even make cash out of it... do what ever other ocmpany does , vip status for foundry access....
    For conclusion i am writing this down only because i am frustrated because this game is fun and they actully found a golden egg in there and instead of using it they just throw it away...
    I really hope that some other company take that golden egg and use it because i am very sure that if u nail that one ur game will swim in dollars.
    and for neverwinter i can only say RIP
    P.S I didnt talk much about the ideas and the ways to make it work because this post is allready long enough , but i hope i made my point clear, thanks for reading!

    Sorry but, player made content is more often than not a piss poor crap. I played most of the user stuff at launch. I wanted to kill myself. So i just played the main game and went on.

  • kresa3333kresa3333 Member UncommonPosts: 64

    You do realize those things take time , just look on skyrim i am playing it now and there are tons of new lands dungeons etc... but it took time to evolve and make those mods.
    And actully if u go to foundry now even without any decent reward system in place there are nice foundry quests out there. Also there is a popularity and daily eligability systems with which u can pick up the best maps, and if u give the community tools and support it u get more and more top quality content made by users every passing month. But u cant excpect those things to happen right away on a fresh new game.
    But again with the current state of the foundry u shouldnt excpect any AAA content mostly because they bearly support it like i said...
    P.S If i had the money and the coding knowledge of the top developers i would work on this myself... there are many factors in mmo games.. but a tool that supports community's creation , endless content and an outcome of big Varaity can be very big factors in making a successfull mmo, add open world to that with go where u want do what u want kind of feeling and u got urself a self growing game without the devs adding any content.

  • StammererStammerer Member Posts: 44
    There is a lot of amazing player stuff; unfortunately it is mostly hidden beneath vast quantities of crap that was clearly churned out in half an hour.  The problem is that there is no way of differentiating between the good stuff and the crap unless it has already been played extensively and rated.  So most good player stuff just gets lost, the good creators become disheartened and stop making stuff. 
  • kresa3333kresa3333 Member UncommonPosts: 64


    Originally posted by Stammerer
    There is a lot of amazing player stuff; unfortunately it is mostly hidden beneath vast quantities of crap that was clearly churned out in half an hour.  The problem is that there is no way of differentiating between the good stuff and the crap unless it has already been played extensively and rated.  So most good player stuff just gets lost, the good creators become disheartened and stop making stuff. 
    Yep you got a point there but sadly nothing is perfect, again ill direct u to skyrim, there are tons of mods out there and many of them nice mods that got dumped like u said only because of that , But! there also Alot! of awsome mods that ppl did notice and it kept getting supported for monthes and years.
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722
    Originally posted by kresa3333


    "If you want to make the big bucks u need to take risks" why stay shallow and follow the herd...

    Free to Play mmos dont take development risks. The only risk they take is shutting the game down when the few payers move on.

    Unfortunately, paid mmos stopped taking risks as well because they now prefer to make F2P quality mmos with a little more polished animations that they know will not hold players long term to justify taking risks for profit. Therefore they end up f2p since thats what they seem to be aiming for anyway.

     

    The easy way out is not always the best way to go.





  • kresa3333kresa3333 Member UncommonPosts: 64


    Originally posted by rojoArcueid
    Originally posted by kresa3333 "If you want to make the big bucks u need to take risks" why stay shallow and follow the herd...
    Free to Play mmos dont take development risks. The only risk they take is shutting the game down when the few payers move on.

    Unfortunately, paid mmos stopped taking risks as well because they now prefer to make F2P quality mmos with a little more polished animations that they know will not hold players long term to justify taking risks for profit. Therefore they end up f2p since thats what they seem to be aiming for anyway.

     

    The easy way out is not always the best way to go.



    To that i can only say that sadly i agree.
  • YanocchiYanocchi Member UncommonPosts: 677
    Originally posted by kresa3333

    For conclusion i am writing this down only because i am frustrated because this game is fun and they actully found a golden egg in there and instead of using it they just throw it away...
    I really hope that some other company take that golden egg and use it because i am very sure that if u nail that one ur game will swim in dollars.
    and for neverwinter i can only say RIP

     

    Don't expect any desperate radical changes in Neverwinter. The game has been a financial success for the company. After the release of Neverwinter in May 2013 their stock value nearly doubled during a period of only 2-3 months. In March-April their stock value was $10-12, in May-June it rose to $15-17 and since July-August 2013 to the present day it has stayed between $18-22/share. This summer the game has been bringing them at least 100,000-200,000 US dollars every day.

    You can examine their stock value history at NASDAQ and you can get a rough estimate about their zen sales by looking at the demand for zen at Zen Astral Exchange and calculating how many days it takes you to get zen from other players through the exchange.

     

     

    Baldur's Gate Online - Video Trailer
    * more info, screenshots and videos here

  • kresa3333kresa3333 Member UncommonPosts: 64


    Originally posted by Yanocchi
    Originally posted by kresa3333 For conclusion i am writing this down only because i am frustrated because this game is fun and they actully found a golden egg in there and instead of using it they just throw it away... I really hope that some other company take that golden egg and use it because i am very sure that if u nail that one ur game will swim in dollars. and for neverwinter i can only say RIP
     

    Don't expect any desperate radical changes in Neverwinter. The game has been a financial success for the company. After the release of Neverwinter in May 2013 their stock value nearly doubled during a period of only 2-3 months. In March-April their stock value was $10-12, in May-June it rose to $15-17 and since July-August 2013 to the present day it has stayed between $18-22/share. This summer the game has been bringing them at least 100,000-200,000 US dollars every day.

    You can examine their stock value history at NASDAQ and you can get a rough estimate about their zen sales by looking at the demand for zen at Zen Astral Exchange and calculating how many days it takes you to get zen from other players through the exchange.

     

     


    Ok if i understand this right its perfect world as a company profits ( which are the publisher of this game btw but aint matter for this replay ) , they got many more games , also i agree they made lots of cash on launch and some on each mini expension they made , but i find it hard to belive they are still growing instead of desending ( on avg ) in profits from neverwinter, and well 100k-200k dollar every day? honestly from seeing the player base on steam and from doing content in game i find it hard to belive they are growing and/or making 100k a day ( but anyhow i dont know to much about amount of profits mmo companies making).
    Other then that by golden egg and making more moeny i ment it big time as if being top AAA game with millions of players and not a standard mmo that makes avarage profit for a f2p game like so many others around it.
    Its something like this : Take a risk and make something special and if u succeed ur game will be remembered and make crazy amounts of cash / Dont take a risk make mmo with the same features ppl used to and milk them for money that is enough for decent profit and budget for the next game on development.

  • OberholzerOberholzer Member Posts: 498
    I played Neverwinter for a while at launch and was bored fairly quickly. I did enjoy a few foundary quests from players. /i'm sure you gave some nice suggestions on the forums but you can't really be surprised you were ignored. I also think you overestimate how much players want to work to create content. I know some do but the reason a lot of what you encountered is crap is because it was most likely hastily done. I think most want to play content, not make it which is too bad.
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916

    The foundry has great potential indeed, given that it's freely accessible by anybody. Ironically, that fact is also its biggest failing, because on the internet, nobody can be trusted !

     

    That means that people can create amazing content, or alternatively, content that is designed purely to be exploited. As a result, the rewards gained from the Foundry content has to be severely limited, otherwise it will be mercilessly abused (as it was in the early days after launch).

     

    Everyone wants to have "fun" in their MMO's, but they won't play more than a few minutes if all they get for it is "fun". They want loads of XP, gold and loot as well, otherwise it's not real "fun"...

  • BailoPan15BailoPan15 Member Posts: 410
    Originally posted by kresa3333

    You do realize those things take time , just look on skyrim i am playing it now and there are tons of new lands dungeons etc... but it took time to evolve and make those mods.
    And actully if u go to foundry now even without any decent reward system in place there are nice foundry quests out there. Also there is a popularity and daily eligability systems with which u can pick up the best maps, and if u give the community tools and support it u get more and more top quality content made by users every passing month. But u cant excpect those things to happen right away on a fresh new game.
    But again with the current state of the foundry u shouldnt excpect any AAA content mostly because they bearly support it like i said...
    P.S If i had the money and the coding knowledge of the top developers i would work on this myself... there are many factors in mmo games.. but a tool that supports community's creation , endless content and an outcome of big Varaity can be very big factors in making a successfull mmo, add open world to that with go where u want do what u want kind of feeling and u got urself a self growing game without the devs adding any content.

    Fair point. That applies for single player yes. Where the modder can play with the inner workings of the game, add models, add textures, add objects. Professionalists do that in their free time because they enjoy a good product. Every ES games does it, Watch_Dogs community does it and many more others.

     

    However, with the understandable limitations of MMO (trinity at that), there's little you can do to do things interesting. Maybe the storywriting? Well its so detached with the game's lore that it makes little good. 

     

    ... Loved the powerlevel maps before they nerfed that though xD 

  • cerulean2012cerulean2012 Member UncommonPosts: 492

    So let me get this correct...you, as a player, not one of the development people, came up with an idea which you think was a great, but risky, idea and are now upset that the game didn't use that idea...am I correct?

    If so, how many MMOs out there do you think use an idea from a player, especially one that is risky and could hurt the game/company?

    I am not at all surprised that your idea was not used.  First what guarantee do you have that they even saw your idea?  Second, why do you think that a successful game as it has been would even try something risky that could really hurt it?

    I am sure that you think that your idea is great and would have made the game the best game ever, but just because you think it is doesn't mean that the developers feel it is correct and would even work.

    So, don't take it so personally.  If you get bent out of shape at every game you have a great idea for and your idea isn't used then you are going to be mad at every game and you should just stop playing them now.

  • kresa3333kresa3333 Member UncommonPosts: 64


    Originally posted by Oberholzer
    I played Neverwinter for a while at launch and was bored fairly quickly. I did enjoy a few foundary quests from players. /i'm sure you gave some nice suggestions on the forums but you can't really be surprised you were ignored. I also think you overestimate how much players want to work to create content. I know some do but the reason a lot of what you encountered is crap is because it was most likely hastily done. I think most want to play content, not make it which is too bad.
    Hey you are right that must of the people want to play rather then create , but a small % of a big amount of ppl is still alot, and the bad mods / content well its something u will see in any game with moding community thats why u got systems to help highlite the good content/ mods . Also u can easly double that number by having a fun to use creation kit and having nice reward system for the creators.
  • kresa3333kresa3333 Member UncommonPosts: 64


    Originally posted by cerulean2012
    So let me get this correct...you, as a player, not one of the development people, came up with an idea which you think was a great, but risky, idea and are now upset that the game didn't use that idea...am I correct?

    If so, how many MMOs out there do you think use an idea from a player, especially one that is risky and could hurt the game/company?

    I am not at all surprised that your idea was not used.  First what guarantee do you have that they even saw your idea?  Second, why do you think that a successful game as it has been would even try something risky that could really hurt it?

    I am sure that you think that your idea is great and would have made the game the best game ever, but just because you think it is doesn't mean that the developers feel it is correct and would even work.

    So, don't take it so personally.  If you get bent out of shape at every game you have a great idea for and your idea isn't used then you are going to be mad at every game and you should just stop playing them now.


    Hey i gave a bigger vision but the ideas i offered to them were very douable and far from so risky, they allready got must of the stuff needed anyhow ( i also gave them a more risky ideas but only as an addition to the other stuff i offered ) , like i said on my main post i didnt get into explaining because it would be way to long.
    And about exploiting again they got enough systems to control that , dailly eligability , popularity and manual checking before approving.
    And about mmo limitations well i dont it should harm to much... if u manage to create a very strong tool , i sure u can create great pvp mods like some of the favorite WoW BGs or some cool unique mod like ppl do in garry mod, same goes for pve... I think its very possible and very worthy, when the devs create tools for the use of the designers they can take a bigger effort and think about player moders as well.
  • cerulean2012cerulean2012 Member UncommonPosts: 492
    Originally posted by kresa3333

     


    Originally posted by cerulean2012
    So let me get this correct...you, as a player, not one of the development people, came up with an idea which you think was a great, but risky, idea and are now upset that the game didn't use that idea...am I correct?

     

    If so, how many MMOs out there do you think use an idea from a player, especially one that is risky and could hurt the game/company?

    I am not at all surprised that your idea was not used.  First what guarantee do you have that they even saw your idea?  Second, why do you think that a successful game as it has been would even try something risky that could really hurt it?

    I am sure that you think that your idea is great and would have made the game the best game ever, but just because you think it is doesn't mean that the developers feel it is correct and would even work.

    So, don't take it so personally.  If you get bent out of shape at every game you have a great idea for and your idea isn't used then you are going to be mad at every game and you should just stop playing them now.


    Hey i gave a bigger vision but the ideas i offered to them were very douable and far from so risky, they allready got must of the stuff needed anyhow ( i also gave them a more risky ideas but only as an addition to the other stuff i offered ) , like i said on my main post i didnt get into explaining because it would be way to long.
    And about exploiting again they got enough systems to control that , dailly eligability , popularity and manual checking before approving.

     

    OK, so your idea is better then anyone other persons idea...I get it.  Well sorry, if you are this upset by it then buy the company and put in place whatever ideas you have.  If you can do that then why are you complaining on here?

    Seems to me you are just upset that your "great idea" isn't being used.  Well I am sure there are thousands maybe hundred thousands or even millions of other gamers who have had "great ideas", presented them to a company in a forum and have seen them not used and they get along just fine.

    So it is time to move on.  Accept the fact that it wasn't used and let it go.

  • YanocchiYanocchi Member UncommonPosts: 677
    Originally posted by kresa3333

    Ok if i understand this right its perfect world as a company profits ( which are the publisher of this game btw but aint matter for this replay ) , they got many more games , also i agree they made lots of cash on launch and some on each mini expension they made , but i find it hard to belive they are still growing instead of desending ( on avg ) in profits from neverwinter, and well 100k-200k dollar every day? honestly from seeing the player base on steam and from doing content in game i find it hard to belive they are growing and/or making 100k a day ( but anyhow i dont know to much about amount of profits mmo companies making).
    Other then that by golden egg and making more moeny i ment it big time as if being top AAA game with millions of players and not a standard mmo that makes avarage profit for a f2p game like so many others around it.
    Its something like this : Take a risk and make something special and if u succeed ur game will be remembered and make crazy amounts of cash / Dont take a risk make mmo with the same features ppl used to and milk them for money that is enough for decent profit and budget for the next game on development.

     

    A few weeks ago players were requesting collectively to buy 2.5 million zen from other players at the Zen Astral Exchange. It takes $150,000-220,000 US dollars to buy such an amount of zen. A player would place a bid for zen at the end of the 2.5 million zen queue and would get his or her zen after 2-3 days of waiting.  Some players get some zen for free by doing Peanut Lab surveys but there are also others who buy zen with real money and spend it on items instead of exchanging it to other players for astral diamonds at the Zen Astral Exchange. Knowing all of this we can deduct that Perfect World probably receives $100,000-200,000 US dollars per day by selling zen in Neverwinter.

     

    As a fan of Dungeons & Dragons games, I wish too that they were much more ambitious with their development of Neverwinter. It is obvious that the company had decided not to take substantial risks and followed the same design and development path as with their previous game Star Trek Online.

     

    Baldur's Gate Online - Video Trailer
    * more info, screenshots and videos here

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,686
    Some call it moneygrab, i prefer the name survival mode for this payment model

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • kresa3333kresa3333 Member UncommonPosts: 64


    Originally posted by cerulean2012
    Originally posted by kresa3333   Originally posted by cerulean2012 So let me get this correct...you, as a player, not one of the development people, came up with an idea which you think was a great, but risky, idea and are now upset that the game didn't use that idea...am I correct?   If so, how many MMOs out there do you think use an idea from a player, especially one that is risky and could hurt the game/company? I am not at all surprised that your idea was not used.  First what guarantee do you have that they even saw your idea?  Second, why do you think that a successful game as it has been would even try something risky that could really hurt it? I am sure that you think that your idea is great and would have made the game the best game ever, but just because you think it is doesn't mean that the developers feel it is correct and would even work. So, don't take it so personally.  If you get bent out of shape at every game you have a great idea for and your idea isn't used then you are going to be mad at every game and you should just stop playing them now.
    Hey i gave a bigger vision but the ideas i offered to them were very douable and far from so risky, they allready got must of the stuff needed anyhow ( i also gave them a more risky ideas but only as an addition to the other stuff i offered ) , like i said on my main post i didnt get into explaining because it would be way to long. And about exploiting again they got enough systems to control that , dailly eligability , popularity and manual checking before approving.  
    OK, so your idea is better then anyone other persons idea...I get it.  Well sorry, if you are this upset by it then buy the company and put in place whatever ideas you have.  If you can do that then why are you complaining on here?

    Seems to me you are just upset that your "great idea" isn't being used.  Well I am sure there are thousands maybe hundred thousands or even millions of other gamers who have had "great ideas", presented them to a company in a forum and have seen them not used and they get along just fine.

    So it is time to move on.  Accept the fact that it wasn't used and let it go.



    Hmm if it sounds like that then my bad i didnt mean it like that , , its not my idea they created the foundry and they got the systems up and other games use other stuff i suggested... i was talking about greed of companies and not taking risks and having a great idea they aint progressing with... maybe it got out of context my bad if it did , anyhow i agree no point continuing since it went to a way other direction, so thanks for reading and lets hope for a better future for mmo games : )
  • YanocchiYanocchi Member UncommonPosts: 677

    Foundry toolset had been announced many months before Neverwinter entered alpha testing and at the time it helped to generate more hype for the game as a successor to Neverwinter Nights series. Unfortunately, Foundry toolset in Neverwinter offers very limited potential compared with Aurora toolset in Neverwinter Nights or Electron toolset in Neverwinter Nights 2.

    If Foundry was anything like Aurora or Electron, it would allow users to create parallel worlds where they would be able to tweak or change everything from class abilities, balance, difficulty of the game, exp and items to new game assets including graphics, models, sound effects and game art.  

    Baldur's Gate Online - Video Trailer
    * more info, screenshots and videos here

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Stammerer
    There is a lot of amazing player stuff; unfortunately it is mostly hidden beneath vast quantities of crap that was clearly churned out in half an hour.  The problem is that there is no way of differentiating between the good stuff and the crap unless it has already been played extensively and rated.  So most good player stuff just gets lost, the good creators become disheartened and stop making stuff. 

    It is not worth the trouble to try to find the diamond in the dirt. There are enough professionally produced content that i seldom bother with user generated ones.

     

  • TyggsTyggs Member UncommonPosts: 456
    Saying money grab invalidates the op's entire post. No one is grabbing anything. They offer a product for consumers to purchase at their discression. Saying a game is a money grab is like saying food makes you fat. It's your personal habits that are the problem.

    SWTOR Referral Link

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  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829

    NW is not the first game to have player created missions, Cryptic also did it for their Star Trek online game and City of Heroes/Villains did it as well.

    Every company is going to ignore a single guy on the forums that tells them his "brilliant ideas" are the path to follow to greatness. And they are very right to do so since armchair developers usually know jack.

    For the vast majority of the mindless hordes out there player content comes down to one thing: "How can I best explore this feature to make the best farms?"  Something which they've proven time and time again back when the devs were still foolish enough to give them more freedom and better rewards. (You may have noticed the random Foundry rewards tend to suck most of the time)

    The amount of players that actually create things out of a desire to create something are a minority, as are those who are interested in playing the content (beyond finding the fastest quest to rush through to complete their dailies).

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081

    Announcing that the game will release F2P should have given everyone a heads up.

    It's beyond me how people here keep thinking F2P is good......In less your intentions were to play FREE

     

     

     

    I think 50% of people here are just that, looking for a FREE game.  Of that 50%, 50% of them are pissed when they find that you can't get very far.

  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Member UncommonPosts: 1,983

    I played Neverwinter after beta and it did have lots of great aspects but fell short in other ways.  It made me miss Turbine's DDO.  The quests were good but that was the only aspect of the game that worked.  Being forced to arena PvP every day for in game money was annoying.  There were glitches they took to long to fix or just did not acknowledge they knew something was broke - poor community relations.  Founder seemed to work for some and not for others - I was one of the others.  I really wanted to make a Founder Dungeon but I just couldn't get the program to work on my PC.  The last straw for me was the real shitty crafting system.  I didn't mind having servants that crafted for you but there wasn't shit worth while to craft.  Reminded me of Aion.  Course the only game that had a worthy crafting system was FFXI and FFXIV almost did if only they would not have sold craftable items at NPC's (FFXIV's compromise was to HIDE the sales npc's and you had to search the world over for most of them).  But did love Neverwinter's Forgotten Realms theme and attention to drow.  I could have used a little less hero and more villain - no one has made a game mmo or otherwise where I could really play an evil drow.  Lag was real bad in the central hub.



  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    It's beyond me how people keep thinking f2p is bad. The quality and customer service is the same as p2p and I have the choice of how much I want to pay if anything at all.

    Sounds like a great deal to me.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
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