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CCP a one trick pony?

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  • QuesaQuesa Member UncommonPosts: 1,432
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    CCP admits that EVE has high turnover.  

    Can you link to that, please?  I'm curious what you mean by 'turnover' and what stats you are comparing it with to determine that it is high. 

     

    They stated that the turnover was high for the new accounts.  It has a lot to do with the steep learning curve, being thrust into a completely hostile world, and how long it takes to train to be effective in a lot of ways. 

    They made a lot of changes to help this out from the beginner player experience/training missions, changing the skills one starts with including scrapping the learning skills (what one would call Stats in a fantasy MMO, str/agi etc), adding certificates (helps someone with training all of the skills they need for a specific 'path'), and career paths that get you started with the skills you need and the mission agents that give you the proper mission types for your chosen skill path.

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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD


    The 'mis-management' they referred to was to move resources from WoD to EvE development.

    So is that a mis-management of WoD or a correct management of EvE.

     

    Talk about 'subjective'

     

    There was more going on than just moving resources if the people who were talking can be believed.  It sounded a lot like they were writing an MMORPG on an adhoc basis rather than following a project plan.  If the stories are to be believed, and are reflective of the entire development process.

     

    I am not a game developer.  I have worked on (and still work on) some fairly large scale IT projects.  My experience has been that a project that takes weeks or months, much less years to complete never completes if it is done "on the fly" or "adhoc".  It just doesn't work.

     

    Maybe this type of development worked with Eve, and maybe it still works with Eve.  It would be very dynamic and developers would get lots of practice at writing, rewriting and eventually nailing down what is expected, but I don't think it's a way to develop all large scale projects.

     

    Again, this is if the stories that were told were true, and reflective of the entire development process.  It's not uncommon for disgruntled employees to talk.  It's also not uncommon for people working in the trenches to not have a complete picture of everything that's happening.  The only thing we know for sure is that they had big plans, they bought a company to use their IP, they spent 9 years working on it and then stopped working on it with very little to show for the effort.

     

    Well aside from the Carbon engine which, if memory serves, was made to serve as basically a platform in which developers can cut their teeth and which would be used for EVE, Dust and WoD. Again this is from what I remember/understood.

     

    If they were working on an MMORPG and ended up with a game engine, then they ended up with far less than they intended.  Until that game engine bears fruit, they have a twenty million dollar deficit and nothing to show for it (yet).  I think that could be interpretted as "very little to show for the effort".

     

    Stopping development on WoD was probably the right decision.  Stopping development after nine years with only ever reaching the tech demo stage was the right decision about six years too late.  Especially when you consider the experience that CCP already has.

     

    Then again, maybe they knew after three years that they weren't going to get it done, and didn't want to let anybody go.  They had to choose between firing a bunch of people or ending up with a twenty million dollar deficit.  That's mis-management, but I could certainly respect that decision, even cheer that decision.  It's a fantasy, I know, but it's nice to imagine a world where a company would make a decision like that.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775

    the bottom line with the article is that it misunderstood a mis-management of CCP overall for a mis-management of the WoD project.

    Its disingenuous and unproffesional to not point out that resources where being moved from WoD to help 'save' EvE.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Quesa
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    CCP admits that EVE has high turnover.  

    Can you link to that, please?  I'm curious what you mean by 'turnover' and what stats you are comparing it with to determine that it is high. 

     

    They stated that the turnover was high for the new accounts.  It has a lot to do with the steep learning curve, being thrust into a completely hostile world, and how long it takes to train to be effective in a lot of ways. 

    They made a lot of changes to help this out from the beginner player experience/training missions, changing the skills one starts with including scrapping the learning skills (what one would call Stats in a fantasy MMO, str/agi etc), adding certificates (helps someone with training all of the skills they need for a specific 'path'), and career paths that get you started with the skills you need and the mission agents that give you the proper mission types for your chosen skill path.

    In that Fanfest presentation you are referring to, CCP stated that it was higher than they wanted. There was no data or comparison to indicate that it was higher or lower acquisition than any other MMO. For those interested, here's the presentation and the section he is referring to. 

     

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  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    Eve is not going to last forever. Unless you don't have a choice, you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket.

    You have a valid point Quirhid, perhaps we should revisit that subject in 10 years time image

    Oh god. Eve fanboy humor ... image

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Quesa
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    CCP admits that EVE has high turnover.  

    Can you link to that, please?  I'm curious what you mean by 'turnover' and what stats you are comparing it with to determine that it is high. 

     

    They stated that the turnover was high for the new accounts.  It has a lot to do with the steep learning curve, being thrust into a completely hostile world, and how long it takes to train to be effective in a lot of ways. 

    They made a lot of changes to help this out from the beginner player experience/training missions, changing the skills one starts with including scrapping the learning skills (what one would call Stats in a fantasy MMO, str/agi etc), adding certificates (helps someone with training all of the skills they need for a specific 'path'), and career paths that get you started with the skills you need and the mission agents that give you the proper mission types for your chosen skill path.

    In that Fanfest presentation you are referring to, CCP stated that it was higher than they wanted. There was no data or comparison to indicate that it was higher or lower acquisition than any other MMO. For those interested, here's the presentation and the section he is referring to. 

     

    High turnover certainly doesn't sound right. What they did say in a presentation a year back was that, in a year, the average age of an Eve player had increased by a year.

    Take it as you will... image

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • laokokolaokoko Member UncommonPosts: 2,004

    It's probably just much easier to make a sandbox "space" game compare to say a "fantasy" sandbox game.

    Many of landscape or models can be replicate zone to zone.  Probably more difficult to do in non space game.

  • kartoolkartool Member UncommonPosts: 520
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by markh777
    CCP  one trick pony...seems thier one trick has lasted many years and has no plans on stopping...one trick my arse...Oh they didnt make this other game...ya maybe they should have never started but they are here with a MASSIVE player base....one trick for you....find another game

     

    hmm .. one trick lasting many years is still one trick. So i suppose you agree that CCP is a one trick pony. And didn't Dust 514 flopped too, as stated in the article?

    Right, you don' like the game, but to call CCP a one trick pony is utterly ridiculous. They have on their hands an astonishingly rare growing in subs MMO which has been flourishing since 2003. You do not accomplish that kind of success being a one trick pony.

    Your head, shake it.

    Uh, some people here don't seem to understand the term one trick pony. It basically means, a pony who can only successfully do a single trick. The term is applicable to CCP until they learn a second trick successfully - meaning release a 2nd successful game.

  • QuesaQuesa Member UncommonPosts: 1,432
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Quesa
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    CCP admits that EVE has high turnover.  

    Can you link to that, please?  I'm curious what you mean by 'turnover' and what stats you are comparing it with to determine that it is high. 

     

    They stated that the turnover was high for the new accounts.  It has a lot to do with the steep learning curve, being thrust into a completely hostile world, and how long it takes to train to be effective in a lot of ways. 

    They made a lot of changes to help this out from the beginner player experience/training missions, changing the skills one starts with including scrapping the learning skills (what one would call Stats in a fantasy MMO, str/agi etc), adding certificates (helps someone with training all of the skills they need for a specific 'path'), and career paths that get you started with the skills you need and the mission agents that give you the proper mission types for your chosen skill path.

    In that Fanfest presentation you are referring to, CCP stated that it was higher than they wanted. There was no data or comparison to indicate that it was higher or lower acquisition than any other MMO. For those interested, here's the presentation and the section he is referring to. 

     

    That's Fanfest 2014.  You'll have to look back before learning skills were removed to find the point in time they eluded to it.

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  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,400
    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    EVE used to be a sandbox game.  You see the relics of this in the NPC factions/corporations and the missions system.  In fact, there used to be a time when you could JOIN the NPC factions.

    As a character you have allways been able to join one of the NPC corps.

    A player corp has NEVER been able to join a faction. (Well, you actually can now, through Factional Warfare...)

    Your facts are wrong, and thus your whole argument.

     

  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,985
    Originally posted by kartool
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by markh777
    CCP  one trick pony...seems thier one trick has lasted many years and has no plans on stopping...one trick my arse...Oh they didnt make this other game...ya maybe they should have never started but they are here with a MASSIVE player base....one trick for you....find another game

     

    hmm .. one trick lasting many years is still one trick. So i suppose you agree that CCP is a one trick pony. And didn't Dust 514 flopped too, as stated in the article?

    Right, you don' like the game, but to call CCP a one trick pony is utterly ridiculous. They have on their hands an astonishingly rare growing in subs MMO which has been flourishing since 2003. You do not accomplish that kind of success being a one trick pony.

    Your head, shake it.

    Uh, some people here don't seem to understand the term one trick pony. It basically means, a pony who can only successfully do a single trick. The term is applicable to CCP until they learn a second trick successfully - meaning release a 2nd successful game.

    If CCP had made a single player EVE game with a bit of DLC here and there, or say if CCP was a band with one big hit song, I could agree with labelling them as a one trick pony. But we're talking about a company that has evolved a living breathing universe over the course of more than 11 years. It has changed and grown in scope to the point where it is barely recognizable from it's original state. CCP simply had (and continues to have) more than one trick up their sleeve.

     

     

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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,379
    CCP does strike me as a one trick pony...These last 2 games were botched pretty badly....I thought Eve was more lucky than good....Sometimes timing is everything.
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,323
    Originally posted by laokoko

    It's probably just much easier to make a sandbox "space" game compare to say a "fantasy" sandbox game.

    Many of landscape or models can be replicate zone to zone.  Probably more difficult to do in non space game.

    SWG is Sci Fi

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Cecropia
     

    If CCP had made a single player EVE game with a bit of DLC here and there, or say if CCP was a band with one big hit song, I could agree with labelling them as a one trick pony. But we're talking about a company that has evolved a living breathing universe over the course of more than 11 years. It has changed and grown in scope to the point where it is barely recognizable from it's original state. CCP simply had (and continues to have) more than one trick up their sleeve.

     

     

    So? A long single trick is still one trick.

    The two other games they have done either flopped or cancelled. So the term "one trick pony" is pretty accurate.

     

  • SeelinnikoiSeelinnikoi Member RarePosts: 1,360
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    speaking of one-trick ponies...

     

    I don't think anything is next. EVE continues to continue. MMOs continue to be born and die. Eve continues to continue.

     

    For a 2003 MMO it's sustaining itself extremely well. It shows the strength of sandbox communities above all.

    Because there is nothing like it in the market. Having a niche monopoly =/= quality.

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Seelinnikoi
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    speaking of one-trick ponies...

     

    I don't think anything is next. EVE continues to continue. MMOs continue to be born and die. Eve continues to continue.

     

    For a 2003 MMO it's sustaining itself extremely well. It shows the strength of sandbox communities above all.

    Because there is nothing like it in the market. Having a niche monopoly =/= quality.

    Plus, it is only 500k players .. it is smaller than WoW, LoL, WoT, Diablo, even TOR ... it is not that impressive if you compare it to other games.

     

  • Dward127Dward127 Member Posts: 46
    yes ccp is a one trick pony.
  • -aLpHa--aLpHa- Member UncommonPosts: 852

    Yes CCP is a one trick pony.

    I don't think this is negative but i just don't expect much of them either.

    I tried getting into EVE a few times (4 times) people call it complicated but it really is not, if you understand the fundamentals and have the ability to patiently read sheets of information (especially numbers) it's pretty easy.

    The guy who called C5/C6 Escalation hard should try some WoW heroic raids.

    EVE PVE is more about preparation then anything else.

    Get the right resistance get the right ammunition and generally fitted the ship the right way (and got enough money for a pirate faction ship). Set the optimal range and have the right skills learned (which is the hardest thing in the game = time).

    I actually had a big gripe with the EVE community especially in the hubs like Jita/Rens and Hek where people where constantly flaming and trying to cheat each other. In the FW zones there was also constant flaming each other, most people where calling me names for using mostly ECM ships against them, since i had very few skillpoints invested ( 3m skillpoints at the end of it) and some of the names where some of the most heinous shit i have read in my whole life.

    But i left mostly because the game simply ain't my cup of tea, it's too boring.

    The "Barrens Chat" in comparison was like a mild breeze.

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