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My personal views on the viability of ESO

24

Comments

  • keithiankeithian Member UncommonPosts: 3,171
    Though I'm not sure I like the idea of the 50+ or the 50++ and I do think from a dynamic perspective the game could be much stronger, in my eyes and for MY play style, it is the only MMO for PVE that currently fits into my play style. Thats a personal preference. I don't care if there are 100000 players or 3M, I'm enjoying myself and its the first MMO I am still enthusiastic after month 3 to log into since LOTRO. 

    There Is Always Hope!

  • BartDaCatBartDaCat Member UncommonPosts: 812
    I don't see how this Carbine Marketing Rep.. er... excuse me.. "Gamer" could get in enough valid play time to give a reliable opinion on ESO's viability, considering how much time they are spending here on this thread trying to refute anyone's opinion to the contrary.
  • BeastnBeastn Member UncommonPosts: 111
    My /played was 10 days before I quit @ lvl v8. My friends and I quit because we felt like we were playing at the same time but not together...just felt like a single player game to us...

    I mean I was enjoying the game, although some of the bugs and lack of seemingly basic mmo features were a bit frustrating
  • kakasakikakasaki Member UncommonPosts: 1,205
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

    OK, I'll admit that I could be wrong about relatively poor numbers and sub retention (relative to other AAA MMORPGs). But bet I'm not. Anyone want to take me up on that? I'll be bookmarking this thread too, and with confidence.

    BTW, with megaserver tech seeing a local pop'n is also meaningless in terns of proof of overall subs, as the numbers of active servers may have dropped 100 fold and you'd never know.

     

    I think there is probably more people that agree than disagree  with you OP,  however some of these guys are heavily invested in the game or with their reputations on these boards for defending ESO.  Besides, no one likes to hear "I told you so".  I think this game has probably seen it's biggest bulk of people who have left the game already.  The question is, which number is currently more now?  The people that are still leaving due to canceling subs or new people coming in?  Of course these are questions we will probably never have the answer to.  However sometimes you can just tell when a game is not doing well by looking at all of the reviews about it and the forums activity and behavior from both fans and people with critiques and concerns.  There are also other ways to observe trends in the game's popularity with gamers, which equals money for the game studio and publisher.  Take each one of those elements individually and it's not really a good measure.  However, when you combine all of those elements you can get a pretty detailed sense of the bigger picture.  Some can see it easily, others will just refuse to see it at all.

    All your reason given are based on you opinion and conjecture without an iota of fact to back it up. Fine with me as everyone is entitled to their views and opinions. However, it is nothing but hubris to say your opinion is correct and those that do not agree and just  blind or refuse to see. And please people, stop with the whole fanboi/reputation/invested attacks to people that don't agree with you. It only illustrates your lack of maturity. Believe it or not, someone can disagree with endless gloom and doom posts about games dying/being unsuccessful and not be a fanboi or deluded in some way.  

    A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...

  • keithiankeithian Member UncommonPosts: 3,171
    Originally posted by Beastn
    My /played was 10 days before I quit @ lvl v8. My friends and I quit because we felt like we were playing at the same time but not together...just felt like a single player game to us...

    I mean I was enjoying the game, although some of the bugs and lack of seemingly basic mmo features were a bit frustrating

    They are aware of this impression and claimed they are working to address the grouping thing so it feels more cohesive for those playing together. There are still too many bugs in my eyes, but they have improved A LOT over the last month. I think you are a good candidate to try again at some point toward the end of the summer or fall. Nothing has prevented me from playing or grouping with others as I see fit.

    There Is Always Hope!

  • JoeyjojoshabaduJoeyjojoshabadu Member UncommonPosts: 162

    I played ESO in beta, I bought it and I subbed. I attempted making a post that was thoughtful and fairly diplomatic on my feelings as to why ESO has not done as well as hoped with regards to reception and (sorry to say it) very likely retention. Yet some have responded as if I grossly insulted their dear mother. Some people here seem to be seriously lacking in perspective (not to mention maturity). Yes, yes, I know it's the Internet, but still..

     

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,196

    OP, you forgot the TLDR: it's not Skyrim Online.

     

    It's a tired idea that has been whined about to death here and totally misses the point. Forget what ESO's roots are. It's an MMO and any valid judgement of its strengths and weaknesses has to be based squarely on how well or not it does MMO things.

     

    Most of us will tune you, Angry Joe, Forbes, etc., out when you go off on your Skyrim Online tangents: it's an irrelevant red herring.

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • DAS1337DAS1337 Member UncommonPosts: 2,610
    Honestly, I don't care.  I'm enjoying my time in ESO.  I will assume that it will keep my attention for a while longer, at least until The Division is released.  Unfortunately it was pushed back, so I hope that doesn't hurt my chances of bridging the gap successfully.
  • DAS1337DAS1337 Member UncommonPosts: 2,610
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

    I played ESO in beta, I bought it and I subbed. I attempted making a post that was thoughtful and fairly diplomatic on my feelings as to why ESO has not done as well as hoped with regards to reception and (sorry to say it) very likely retention. Yet some have responded as if I grossly insulted their dear mother. Some people here seem to be seriously lacking in perspective (not to mention maturity). Yes, yes, I know it's the Internet, but still..

     

    It's because we've seen the same thing a million times already.  You are just being captain obvious, and it's annoying to a lot of people.  We already know that MMO's are different than single player games.  We already know that MMO's take a dip in retention after the first, third, and sixth month after release.  We already know that other games that are being released are going to pull players away.  It is the way of the MMO genre market, and it's been like that for years.  You telling us that really isn't anything new.

     

    If you honestly expected anything different here, well I'm sorry.  That's just how it is.  

  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,603
    Originally posted by Iselin

    OP, you forgot the TLDR: it's not Skyrim Online.

     

    It's a tired idea that has been whined about to death here and totally misses the point. Forget what ESO's roots are. It's an MMO and any valid judgement of its strengths and weaknesses has to be based squarely on how well or not it does MMO things.

     

    Most of us will tune you, Angry Joe, Forbes, etc., out when you go off on your Skyrim Online tangents: it's an irrelevant red herring.

    At least OP didn't claim to be a 'true' TES fan.

    image
  • JoeyjojoshabaduJoeyjojoshabadu Member UncommonPosts: 162
    Originally posted by DAS1337
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

    I played ESO in beta, I bought it and I subbed. I attempted making a post that was thoughtful and fairly diplomatic on my feelings as to why ESO has not done as well as hoped with regards to reception and (sorry to say it) very likely retention. Yet some have responded as if I grossly insulted their dear mother. Some people here seem to be seriously lacking in perspective (not to mention maturity). Yes, yes, I know it's the Internet, but still..

     

    It's because we've seen the same thing a million times already.  You are just being captain obvious, and it's annoying to a lot of people.  We already know that MMO's are different than single player games.  We already know that MMO's take a dip in retention after the first, third, and sixth month after release.  We already know that other games that are being released are going to pull players away.  It is the way of the MMO genre market, and it's been like that for years.  You telling us that really isn't anything new.

     

    If you honestly expected anything different here, well I'm sorry.  That's just how it is.  

    Well I'm sorry for pointing out the obvious. It seems a lot of the anger is based on defensiveness. This need not be the case. As DAS1337 showed, if you're free to enjoy the game regardless of poor reviews and/or numbers. It's not an insult to you personally if others don't like a product you do, or vice-versa.

    DAS1337's is an example of a mature response. But this being the Internet, no I don't expect the majority to react similarly. That being said it's still sad to see people auto-responding in angry defensiveness, in "I'm 15 and and angry at my parents" tone, rather than thoughtfully responding.

     

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd Member Posts: 1,123
    Originally posted by immodium

     

    At least OP didn't claim to be a 'true' TES fan.

    Yeah, Heaven forbid anyone interested in ESO being a fan of previous ES games, that would be crazy talk and totally invalidates their opinion...am I right?

     

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

    I played ESO in beta, I bought it and I subbed. I attempted making a post that was thoughtful and fairly diplomatic on my feelings as to why ESO has not done as well as hoped with regards to reception and (sorry to say it) very likely retention. Yet some have responded as if I grossly insulted their dear mother. Some people here seem to be seriously lacking in perspective (not to mention maturity). Yes, yes, I know it's the Internet, but still..

     

    You know the one thing you were missing was the silver bullet. You're missing the actual, real, verifiable evidence that supports your assertion that it's a failure. Instead you provide anecdotal evidence that was quickly shot down with evidence from the same source that demonstrated the lack of accuracy. Now you're whining like a child who's going to take his ball and go home. Who is acting immaturely? You know what? Why not just say, "Well, I might be wrong. I never considered that. I guess we'll just have to wait and see." dust off your hands and wait until actual numbers come out. 

     

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,196
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by immodium

     

    At least OP didn't claim to be a 'true' TES fan.

    Yeah, Heaven forbid anyone interested in ESO being a fan of previous ES games, that would be crazy talk and totally invalidates their opinion...am I right?

     

    No, more like heaven forbid that an MMO set in the ES universe do anything in any way different from Skyrim....which is what the "True TES fan" crowd really is: narrow-minded Skyrim fans most of whom don't even have the first clue about how different each ES release has been from the previous one.

     

    We tune those ideas out because they are typically immature whines from arrogant amaterurs that seem to forget that the vast majority of us have played the shit out of ALL the ES games but we also understand the differences between single player games and MMOs because we have also played the shit out of many MMOs.

     

    Like I said, red herrings from the ignorantly arrogant.

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • kakasakikakasaki Member UncommonPosts: 1,205
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu
    Originally posted by DAS1337
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

    I played ESO in beta, I bought it and I subbed. I attempted making a post that was thoughtful and fairly diplomatic on my feelings as to why ESO has not done as well as hoped with regards to reception and (sorry to say it) very likely retention. Yet some have responded as if I grossly insulted their dear mother. Some people here seem to be seriously lacking in perspective (not to mention maturity). Yes, yes, I know it's the Internet, but still..

     

    It's because we've seen the same thing a million times already.  You are just being captain obvious, and it's annoying to a lot of people.  We already know that MMO's are different than single player games.  We already know that MMO's take a dip in retention after the first, third, and sixth month after release.  We already know that other games that are being released are going to pull players away.  It is the way of the MMO genre market, and it's been like that for years.  You telling us that really isn't anything new.

     

    If you honestly expected anything different here, well I'm sorry.  That's just how it is.  

    Well I'm sorry for pointing out the obvious. It seems a lot of the anger is based on defensiveness. This need not be the case. As DAS1337 showed, if you're free to enjoy the game regardless of poor reviews and/or numbers. It's not an insult to you personally if others don't like a product you do, or vice-versa.

    DAS1337's is an example of a mature response. But this being the Internet, no I don't expect the majority to react similarly. That being said it's still sad to see people auto-responding in angry defensiveness, in "I'm 15 and and angry at my parents" tone, rather than thoughtfully responding.

     

    As opposed to the maturity and levelheadedness demonstrated in so many countless gloom and doom posts....

    A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...

  • JoeyjojoshabaduJoeyjojoshabadu Member UncommonPosts: 162
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by immodium

     

    At least OP didn't claim to be a 'true' TES fan.

    Yeah, Heaven forbid anyone interested in ESO being a fan of previous ES games, that would be crazy talk and totally invalidates their opinion...am I right?

     

    No, more like heaven forbid that an MMO set in the ES universe do anything in any way different from Skyrim....which is what the "True TES fan" crowd really is: narrow-minded Skyrim fans most of whom don't even have the first clue about how different each ES release has been from the previous one.

     

    We tune those ideas out because they are typically immature whines from arrogant amaterurs that seem to forget that the vast majority of us have played the shit out of ALL the ES games but we also understand the differences between single player games and MMOs because we have also played the shit out of many MMOs.

     

    Like I said, red herrings from the ignorantly arrogant.

    If you hadn't "tuned out" you'd see that I addressed the 'Skyrim Online' issue. In fact I essentially agreed with your position, that many people were too attached to the single ES paradigm and unaware of necessary changes to make ES an O.

    BTW, the insults are unneeded to make your point and in fact just devalue your position.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,196
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by immodium

     

    At least OP didn't claim to be a 'true' TES fan.

    Yeah, Heaven forbid anyone interested in ESO being a fan of previous ES games, that would be crazy talk and totally invalidates their opinion...am I right?

     

    No, more like heaven forbid that an MMO set in the ES universe do anything in any way different from Skyrim....which is what the "True TES fan" crowd really is: narrow-minded Skyrim fans most of whom don't even have the first clue about how different each ES release has been from the previous one.

     

    We tune those ideas out because they are typically immature whines from arrogant amaterurs that seem to forget that the vast majority of us have played the shit out of ALL the ES games but we also understand the differences between single player games and MMOs because we have also played the shit out of many MMOs.

     

    Like I said, red herrings from the ignorantly arrogant.

    If you hadn't "tuned out" you'd see that I addressed the 'Skyrim Online' issue. In fact I essentially agreed with your position, that many people were too attached to the single ES paradigm and unaware of necessary changes to make ES an O.

    BTW, the insults are unneeded to make your point and in fact just devalue your position.

    And yet you brought up Angry Joe whose main schtick boils down to "It ain't Skyrim Online" as well as basing most of your OP on the game not being what it should be because the devs brought along other "MMO baggage" and saying that Bethesda would have done it better... mixed message, don't you think? 

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • JoeyjojoshabaduJoeyjojoshabadu Member UncommonPosts: 162
     

    "You know the one thing you were missing was the silver bullet. You're missing the actual, real, verifiable evidence that supports your assertion that it's a failure. Instead you provide anecdotal evidence"

    I have openly agreed that I have no sub numbers - ZOS have not provided any. Therefore what we have is supportive evidence, but I feel it paints a fairly clear picture. Naturally, you're free to disagree.

    "Instead you provide anecdotal evidence that was quickly shot down with evidence from the same source that demonstrated the lack of accuracy."

    You actually provided no evidence for your counter-claim, merely an assertion. Assertions are fine of course.

    "Now you're whining like a child who's going to take his ball and go home. Who is acting immaturely?"

    Sorry, but the latter question is answered by the former statement. Discussion can and should be kept civil.

    "Why not just say, "Well, I might be wrong. I never considered that. I guess we'll just have to wait and see." dust off your hands and wait until actual numbers come out."

    I did in fact clearly state that I may be wrong. I also stand by my view that the supportive evidence, as a whole, is strongly suggestive that the game has not done as well as hoped, in terms of reception and retention.

  • JoeyjojoshabaduJoeyjojoshabadu Member UncommonPosts: 162
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by immodium

     

    At least OP didn't claim to be a 'true' TES fan.

    Yeah, Heaven forbid anyone interested in ESO being a fan of previous ES games, that would be crazy talk and totally invalidates their opinion...am I right?

     

    No, more like heaven forbid that an MMO set in the ES universe do anything in any way different from Skyrim....which is what the "True TES fan" crowd really is: narrow-minded Skyrim fans most of whom don't even have the first clue about how different each ES release has been from the previous one.

     

    We tune those ideas out because they are typically immature whines from arrogant amaterurs that seem to forget that the vast majority of us have played the shit out of ALL the ES games but we also understand the differences between single player games and MMOs because we have also played the shit out of many MMOs.

     

    Like I said, red herrings from the ignorantly arrogant.

    If you hadn't "tuned out" you'd see that I addressed the 'Skyrim Online' issue. In fact I essentially agreed with your position, that many people were too attached to the single ES paradigm and unaware of necessary changes to make ES an O.

    BTW, the insults are unneeded to make your point and in fact just devalue your position.

    And yet you brought up Angry Joe whose main schtick boils down to "It ain't Skyrim Online" as well as basing most of your OP on the game not being what it should be because the devs brought along other "MMO baggage" and saying that Bethesda would have done it better... mixed message, don't you think? 

    I didn't even mention Angry Joe. That was someone else. But I still do feel Bethesda as leads, using their vision, but backed up by former DAoC devs would have been better than former DAoC devs having almost complete control of direction and content. I don't feel this is a hostile or unreasonable view to have, though I do recognise what another poster said that this is not feasible in terms of game company structure.

     

     

  • reeereeereeereee Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

     

    Don't mistake me, I am fully aware that, as an MMORPG, ESO was not able to be 'Skyrim online', but I feel that the focus leaned too far toward developing a fairly standard MMORPG, and this happened because devs who had worked on other MMORPGs were hired to not just support, but to lead the project. And thus we have ZOS. A better way, I feel, would have been to let Bethesda to develop and lead, while utilising the MMORPG knowledge of people such as Matt Frior, Paul Sage, et al on a consultatory basis. We'd have a game driven by the wonderful vision of Bethesda devs, but backed up by the technical MMORPG skills of Frior/Sage.

     

    Wrong, wrong on so many levels.  They took the MMO experience and dumbed it down for Skyrim fans to make the most solo oriented MMO ever made.  They either needed to go all in for making a good MMO or all in for delivering an Elder Scrolls experience.  Instead they did neither.  They tried to split the difference and delivered an MMO that's all about solo questing, which almost no one wanted.

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd Member Posts: 1,123
    Originally posted by Iselin

     

    No, more like heaven forbid that an MMO set in the ES universe do anything in any way different from Skyrim....which is what the "True TES fan" crowd really is: narrow-minded Skyrim fans most of whom don't even have the first clue about how different each ES release has been from the previous one.

     

    It is a VERY valid point brought up that if you want to use the ES name you do it justice. You can't just dismiss it because your opinion differs. People are free to express their views however hard you try to drown them out in fanboy rhetoric. People are free to state what they see is the essence of an ES game. It is all opinion so please stop trying to shut up people expressing their personal opinions.

    We tune those ideas out because they are typically immature whines from arrogant amaterurs that seem to forget that the vast majority of us have played the shit out of ALL the ES games but we also understand the differences between single player games and MMOs because we have also played the shit out of many MMOs.

     

    Past experience means Jack shit to both them AND you so please stop taking the high ground, insulting others and putting your opinion forward as the only truth. 

    Insults meant to debase other posters  by stating they are immature, whining, arrogant, amateurs really just shows your lack of willingness to hear their point of view and assess it on its merits. It is proof positive that you fit the very definition of a fanboy, unable to allow different opinions to expressed without a rude reply or some self appointed higher ground argument.

    Like I said, red herrings from the ignorantly arrogant.

    Do yourself and us a favour and just STFU spouting your crap. .

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

    "Instead you provide anecdotal evidence that was quickly shot down with evidence from the same source that demonstrated the lack of accuracy."

    You actually provided no evidence for your counter-claim, merely an assertion. Assertions are fine of course.

    Actually, it is fact, plain and simple. 

     

    It clearly states that Mists of Pandaria sold 1.72 million copies (see here). Meanwhile, you can see plain and simple that Blizzard showed nearly 5 million sales in the first month after MoP release. 

     

    vgchartz is not an accurate source of data. Period. It's not an assertion, it's fact. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • JoeyjojoshabaduJoeyjojoshabadu Member UncommonPosts: 162
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

    "Instead you provide anecdotal evidence that was quickly shot down with evidence from the same source that demonstrated the lack of accuracy."

    You actually provided no evidence for your counter-claim, merely an assertion. Assertions are fine of course.

    Actually, it is fact, plain and simple. 

     

    It clearly states that Mists of Pandaria sold 1.72 million copies (see here). Meanwhile, you can see plain and simple that Blizzard showed nearly 5 million sales in the first month after MoP release. 

     

    vgchartz is not an accurate source of data. Period. It's not an assertion, it's fact. 

    Um, as I clearly stated, vgachartz only show metrics for retail copies. Further, in the Wiki page it states 4.7 million total sales for MoP and that digital:retail sales were about 4:1. So the figures actually do support my case, and don't support yours.

     

  • rodingorodingo Member RarePosts: 2,870
    Originally posted by kakasaki
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

    OK, I'll admit that I could be wrong about relatively poor numbers and sub retention (relative to other AAA MMORPGs). But bet I'm not. Anyone want to take me up on that? I'll be bookmarking this thread too, and with confidence.

    BTW, with megaserver tech seeing a local pop'n is also meaningless in terns of proof of overall subs, as the numbers of active servers may have dropped 100 fold and you'd never know.

     

    I think there is probably more people that agree than disagree  with you OP,  however some of these guys are heavily invested in the game or with their reputations on these boards for defending ESO.  Besides, no one likes to hear "I told you so".  I think this game has probably seen it's biggest bulk of people who have left the game already.  The question is, which number is currently more now?  The people that are still leaving due to canceling subs or new people coming in?  Of course these are questions we will probably never have the answer to.  However sometimes you can just tell when a game is not doing well by looking at all of the reviews about it and the forums activity and behavior from both fans and people with critiques and concerns.  There are also other ways to observe trends in the game's popularity with gamers, which equals money for the game studio and publisher.  Take each one of those elements individually and it's not really a good measure.  However, when you combine all of those elements you can get a pretty detailed sense of the bigger picture.  Some can see it easily, others will just refuse to see it at all.

    All your reason given are based on you opinion and conjecture without an iota of fact to back it up

    What gave it away?  When I started off my sentences with "I think"?

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • IggunsIgguns Member UncommonPosts: 71

    I was going to let ESO pass initially.  Then one day, out of the blue, I saw a Youtube video narrated by a very smooth talking person who did an absolutely wonderful job of outlining and demonstrating some of the quite awesome features of the game.  After watching that I was sold.  I immediately bought the $80.00 version as I was sold that this was going to be awesome.

     

    After about 1.5 - 2 weeks of playing, I could not play the game more than about 1.5 - 2 hours per setting without feeling tired and wanting to take a nap.  I asked myself, what is wrong?  I kept at it for about another week, hoping for something to inspire me within the game that would refresh/ignite a desire to continue.  It never happened. 

     

    I leveled 2 characters to 30ish.  I crafted tons.  I was a bookshelf/basket searching ore whore fool.  Upon creating my 2nd char, I found about shared bank space.  If it hasn't been mentioned already, the limited shared bank space across all characters was a huge detractor for me.

     

    Lessons learned.  Never buy a game until after reading both positive and negative reviews from ordinary people who are playing.  Never buy into hype from developers and never buy into hype from smooth talking Youtube narrators.  I'll be very patient in the future I promise.  :)

     

    ^^Even though I don't believe it's necessary to state, the above is merely my opinion and my experiences as I interpret them so no panty bunching k? hehe

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