Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Eq was absolutely a theme park through and through. Class based trivial creating vs drops zones that got progressively harder the further you were fun the starting area and absolutely no impact on the world. Total theme park and yes they were called theme park back then. 2000 wad when I first heard the term in relation to games.
I don't really agree with this assessment. EQ had no tutorials and didn't string you along with quests to make sure you are going the right way. Many of the zones were out of order in terms of how difficult the mobs were. Even individual zones had parts where the mobs were far above the level of what the lower ones were. The only thing that made it like a theme park is that there was no real way to change the environment. There were a lot of tools to roleplay D&D style with, but nothing to construct buildings. The game was never about that. It was always about D&D style questing, but in a more open world.
Dear lord... in a themepark you have levels, you have ultimate goals (reach x level), in a sandbox you find your own way, there is not goal, no number quantifying your progress, no nothing, all you had was what you wanted to do and how far you got. Put bluntly a themepark was pumping your veins full of crack cocaine everytime you leveled or got a new item whereas a sandbox would set you lose into a world and told you to have fun and guess which system EQ had (hint: there's a reason people spawn camped shit, feared death, etc,etc,etc and it is mostly the same reason people in WoW hate death, do dungeons ad nauseum,etc,etc).
Christ it's like people are not seeing the forest because of the tree... Oh and before anyone says "But then D&D was a themepark in PnP too!" nope because with D&D leveling was not a goal onto itself, the adventure was which was build around your party by the DM while EQ, WoW, etc are adventures built more loosely or tightly around certain goals, certain objectives and which reward a player each time he/she gets closer to it... yup, themeparks are also Skinner Boxes, they will keep you chugging along merrily in a static world believing you are doing anything of real import.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Eq was absolutely a theme park through and through. Class based trivial creating vs drops zones that got progressively harder the further you were fun the starting area and absolutely no impact on the world. Total theme park and yes they were called theme park back then. 2000 wad when I first heard the term in relation to games.
I don't really agree with this assessment. EQ had no tutorials and didn't string you along with quests to make sure you are going the right way. Many of the zones were out of order in terms of how difficult the mobs were. Even individual zones had parts where the mobs were far above the level of what the lower ones were. The only thing that made it like a theme park is that there was no real way to change the environment. There were a lot of tools to roleplay D&D style with, but nothing to construct buildings. The game was never about that. It was always about D&D style questing, but in a more open world.
Dear lord... in a themepark you have levels, you have ultimate goals (reach x level), in a sandbox you find your own way, there is not goal, no number quantifying your progress, no nothing, all you had was what you wanted to do and how far you got. Put bluntly a themepark was pumping your veins full of crack cocaine everytime you leveled or got a new item whereas a sandbox would set you lose into a world and told you to have fun and guess which system EQ had (hint: there's a reason people spawn camped shit, feared death, etc,etc,etc and it is mostly the same reason people in WoW hate death, do dungeons ad nauseum,etc,etc).
Christ it's like people are not seeing the forest because of the tree... Oh and before anyone says "But then D&D was a themepark in PnP too!" nope because with D&D leveling was not a goal onto itself, the adventure was which was build around your party by the DM while EQ, WoW, etc are adventures built more loosely or tightly around certain goals, certain objectives and which reward a player each time he/she gets closer to it... yup, themeparks are also Skinner Boxes, they will keep you chugging along merrily in a static world believing you are doing anything of real import.
I see your point, but in EQ you mostly could go where you wanted and to what you wanted (barring level). There was no real set path. Leveling may have been the main purpose (themepark) I guess. To me a themepark guides you around to safe places and holds your hand the whole way. I don't believe just because EQ had levels it is a themepark. It never held your hand and there was never a set path to take. You had to find your own way. EQ was not built like WoW really. The equipment you got in EQ was pretty sad. It wasn't really much to look forward to. WoW guided you around with quests and made sure you were always in a safe place. It also rewarded you constantly/easily and made sure you knew where to go.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Eq was absolutely a theme park through and through. Class based trivial creating vs drops zones that got progressively harder the further you were fun the starting area and absolutely no impact on the world. Total theme park and yes they were called theme park back then. 2000 wad when I first heard the term in relation to games.
I don't really agree with this assessment. EQ had no tutorials and didn't string you along with quests to make sure you are going the right way. Many of the zones were out of order in terms of how difficult the mobs were. Even individual zones had parts where the mobs were far above the level of what the lower ones were. The only thing that made it like a theme park is that there was no real way to change the environment. There were a lot of tools to roleplay D&D style with, but nothing to construct buildings. The game was never about that. It was always about D&D style questing, but in a more open world.
Dear lord... in a themepark you have levels, you have ultimate goals (reach x level), in a sandbox you find your own way, there is not goal, no number quantifying your progress, no nothing, all you had was what you wanted to do and how far you got. Put bluntly a themepark was pumping your veins full of crack cocaine everytime you leveled or got a new item whereas a sandbox would set you lose into a world and told you to have fun and guess which system EQ had (hint: there's a reason people spawn camped shit, feared death, etc,etc,etc and it is mostly the same reason people in WoW hate death, do dungeons ad nauseum,etc,etc).
Christ it's like people are not seeing the forest because of the tree... Oh and before anyone says "But then D&D was a themepark in PnP too!" nope because with D&D leveling was not a goal onto itself, the adventure was which was build around your party by the DM while EQ, WoW, etc are adventures built more loosely or tightly around certain goals, certain objectives and which reward a player each time he/she gets closer to it... yup, themeparks are also Skinner Boxes, they will keep you chugging along merrily in a static world believing you are doing anything of real import.
I see your point, but in EQ you mostly could go where you wanted and to what you wanted (barring level). There was no real set path. Leveling may have been the main purpose (themepark) I guess. To me a themepark guides you around to safe places and holds your hand the whole way. I don't believe just because EQ had levels it is a themepark. It never held your hand and there was never a set path to take. You had to find your own way. EQ was not built like WoW really. The equipment you got in EQ was pretty sad. It wasn't really much to look forward to. WoW guided you around with quests and made sure you were always in a safe place. It also rewarded you constantly/easily and made sure you knew where to go.
Yes but EQ had optimum paths for progression and most people took those to get to be the most powerful faster. Equipment is an added reward and a way to quantify your progress a bit better which aided the introduction of instances but for a themepark those aren't really required, what is required is content to burn through and levels to gain (Blizzard mixed the loot whoring from Diablo 2 in here to get the double hook EQ missed).
Oh and EQ did hold your hand because it told you which optimum build of skills (what most call classes) you needed for each role and quantified enemy difficulty in levels though it did have a peculiar and often missed trait which I wish more MMOs had: the discovery element (you'd find certain items without apparent use which later, through dialogue, would suddenly become important).
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Eq was absolutely a theme park through and through. Class based trivial creating vs drops zones that got progressively harder the further you were fun the starting area and absolutely no impact on the world. Total theme park and yes they were called theme park back then. 2000 wad when I first heard the term in relation to games.
I don't really agree with this assessment. EQ had no tutorials and didn't string you along with quests to make sure you are going the right way. Many of the zones were out of order in terms of how difficult the mobs were. Even individual zones had parts where the mobs were far above the level of what the lower ones were. The only thing that made it like a theme park is that there was no real way to change the environment. There were a lot of tools to roleplay D&D style with, but nothing to construct buildings. The game was never about that. It was always about D&D style questing, but in a more open world.
Dear lord... in a themepark you have levels, you have ultimate goals (reach x level), in a sandbox you find your own way, there is not goal, no number quantifying your progress, no nothing, all you had was what you wanted to do and how far you got. Put bluntly a themepark was pumping your veins full of crack cocaine everytime you leveled or got a new item whereas a sandbox would set you lose into a world and told you to have fun and guess which system EQ had (hint: there's a reason people spawn camped shit, feared death, etc,etc,etc and it is mostly the same reason people in WoW hate death, do dungeons ad nauseum,etc,etc).
Christ it's like people are not seeing the forest because of the tree... Oh and before anyone says "But then D&D was a themepark in PnP too!" nope because with D&D leveling was not a goal onto itself, the adventure was which was build around your party by the DM while EQ, WoW, etc are adventures built more loosely or tightly around certain goals, certain objectives and which reward a player each time he/she gets closer to it... yup, themeparks are also Skinner Boxes, they will keep you chugging along merrily in a static world believing you are doing anything of real import.
I see your point, but in EQ you mostly could go where you wanted and to what you wanted (barring level). There was no real set path. Leveling may have been the main purpose (themepark) I guess. To me a themepark guides you around to safe places and holds your hand the whole way. I don't believe just because EQ had levels it is a themepark. It never held your hand and there was never a set path to take. You had to find your own way. EQ was not built like WoW really. The equipment you got in EQ was pretty sad. It wasn't really much to look forward to. WoW guided you around with quests and made sure you were always in a safe place. It also rewarded you constantly/easily and made sure you knew where to go.
Yes but EQ had optimum paths for progression and most people took those to get to be the most powerful faster. Equipment is an added reward and a way to quantify your progress a bit better which aided the introduction of instances but for a themepark those aren't really required, what is required is content to burn through and levels to gain (Blizzard mixed the loot whoring from Diablo 2 in here to get the double hook EQ missed).
Oh and EQ did hold your hand because it told you which optimum build of skills (what most call classes) you needed for each role and quantified enemy difficulty in levels though it did have a peculiar and often missed trait which I wish more MMOs had: the discovery element (you'd find certain items without apparent use which later, through dialogue, would suddenly become important).
Most people didn't know any optimal path of progression. It took a long while before I figured out the layout of the zones and where I could go and not go. You may be referring to guides published by players, but you didn't have to follow those. You might have learned of optimal areas for certain level ranges over time if you looked hard outside of game.
EQ didn't really tell you anything about classes. You basically picked a class and went at it. I didn't even realize EQ was a group oriented game when it first came out. I played as a Ranger solo for a long time until I got frustrated that I couldn't progress very well without a group. Then I tried other classes to see how they would fair solo. The holy trinity wasn't created by the developers. It was created by the players. The solo classes/kiting was also invented by the players. The devs didn't intent any of it. They just threw out some D&D 2nd edition classes with some slight modifications. Nothing was really set in stone. That's part of what made it great. There was no raiding, holy trinity, trading areas, ports/buffs for money, etc. It was all invented by the player base.
Well I have to fully agree with the Op. EQ1 style game is something the genre is sorely missing IMO.
Grouping and raiding it has been a blast and really the only MMO out right now that I can play for awhile and call home. Anyone still looking for this, I would suggest it since EQ Live isn't fun at all and the progression servers ya gotta pay for and are way up in expansions last I checked.
Please edit or remove the post, no discussion on free servers guys.
Also why are we arguing over whether EQ was a them park or sandbox? It was around before those definitions became commonplace. In SWG people coined the term "theme parks" to describe content in the game which was centered around more linear questing. It wasn't even a genre definition at that point.
Most people didn't know any optimal path of progression. It took a long while before I figured out the layout of the zones and where I could go and not go. You may be referring to guides published by players, but you didn't have to follow those. You might have learned of optimal areas for certain level ranges over time if you looked hard outside of game.
EQ didn't really tell you anything about classes. You basically picked a class and went at it. I didn't even realize EQ was a group oriented game when it first came out. I played as a Ranger solo for a long time until I got frustrated that I couldn't progress very well without a group. Then I tried other classes to see how they would fair solo. The holy trinity wasn't created by the developers. It was created by the players. The solo classes/kiting was also invented by the players. The devs didn't intent any of it. They just threw out some D&D 2nd edition classes with some slight modifications. Nothing was really set in stone. That's part of what made it great. There was no raiding, holy trinity, trading areas, ports/buffs for money, etc. It was all invented by the player base.
I would like to point out that most of the things you described were also true of World of Worldcraft when it was released. People starting with the game did not know about holy trinity, grouping rules, loot rules, raiding rules, etc. They picked all the stuff up as they progressed through the game and encountered content that required it.
Most people didn't know any optimal path of progression. It took a long while before I figured out the layout of the zones and where I could go and not go. You may be referring to guides published by players, but you didn't have to follow those. You might have learned of optimal areas for certain level ranges over time if you looked hard outside of game.
EQ didn't really tell you anything about classes. You basically picked a class and went at it. I didn't even realize EQ was a group oriented game when it first came out. I played as a Ranger solo for a long time until I got frustrated that I couldn't progress very well without a group. Then I tried other classes to see how they would fair solo. The holy trinity wasn't created by the developers. It was created by the players. The solo classes/kiting was also invented by the players. The devs didn't intent any of it. They just threw out some D&D 2nd edition classes with some slight modifications. Nothing was really set in stone. That's part of what made it great. There was no raiding, holy trinity, trading areas, ports/buffs for money, etc. It was all invented by the player base.
I would like to point out that most of the things you described were also true of World of Worldcraft when it was released. People starting with the game did not know about holy trinity, grouping rules, loot rules, raiding rules, etc. They picked all the stuff up as they progressed through the game and encountered content that required it.
I would have to disagree with this. WoW had a lot of people who worked on EQ. By that time EQ had implemented a lot of the things the players had done on their own into the game (for worse IMO). For instance they added an auction house. They added class descriptions at character creation to tell you what each class was good at. They added real raids to the game after seeing players who hit the level cap ganging up in large groups on mobs that should have been unkillable.
In WoW we already started to see everything segregated, streamlined, and generally put on rails. It started putting restrictions on a lot of things and forcing you to play a certain way. You had to follow quest paths for optimal loot/exp solo. You had to group up for x dungeon. You had to form a large raid for y dungeon. Instances were put in place. Everything was streamlined into a neat path that anyone could easily follow. The auction house was implemented. Anti kiting was implemented to an extent.
The point is that there really wasn't anything new created by the general public in WoW. It just took what people had done in EQ, made it a themepark where you followed an exact path, and implemented a lot of developer features that restricted what the community could actually come up with in game a lot. It was more interesting when the players were the ones coming up with things that were unintended IMO. As much as EQ wasn't a sandbox it was never a themepark IMO. There were way to many things invented by the community that weren't intended by the developers. It may not have physically altered the world, but in a way it did. For instance having a whole area overrun by people trading sort of altered that areas landscape. It took on a life of it's own. It was like going to a medieval bazaar.
The game was never about that. It was always about D&D style questing, but in a more open world.
That is not the EQ i remember. It is not about anything but static mob grinding, camp check, and loot drama.
There is zero D&D style questing .. at least in the beginning.
To be honest you didn't have to camp mob if you didn't want to. That was up to the player. The grind wasn't always that enjoyable, but there were a lot of other things going on in the game. Things you seem to have missed. I also missed some things. It was easy to get caught up in the level race. The world was there and to people who took their time and enjoyed the journey they could have played D&D style like was intended. The world was there to explore. There were dangerous dungeons, nasty monster, and loot to be had. There were people to save and sometimes people to save you. It was all what you made of it. To me that is not a theme park.
The game was never about that. It was always about D&D style questing, but in a more open world.
That is not the EQ i remember. It is not about anything but static mob grinding, camp check, and loot drama.
There is zero D&D style questing .. at least in the beginning.
To be honest you didn't have to camp mob if you didn't want to. That was up to the player. The grind wasn't always that enjoyable, but there were a lot of other things going on in the game. Things you seem to have missed. I also missed some things. It was easy to get caught up in the level race. The world was there and to people who took their time and enjoyed the journey they could have played D&D style like was intended. The world was there to explore. There were dangerous dungeons, nasty monster, and loot to be had. There were people to save and sometimes people to save you. It was all what you made of it. To me that is not a theme park.
If you don't camp, there are a list of boss drop equipment that you are never going to get.
And yes, the grind is not enjoyable.
And yes, it is not a themepark (heck, people here can't even agree on what a MMO is, there is no hope to agree on what a "themepark" is) ... it is a bad (to me) game.
And i LoL when i read "D&D style" ... there is no 50 people camping a single boss in D&D. D&D (and I have played PnP AD&D in grad school) is about small group adventure in a dungeon, not 50 people arguing who gets to go first, and do camp checks with all the camping spots in the dungeons.
It is the furthest experience i have from AD&D. Heck, even D3 dungeon runs are more like AD&D (at least you are actually going through a dungeon) than EQ.
The game was never about that. It was always about D&D style questing, but in a more open world.
That is not the EQ i remember. It is not about anything but static mob grinding, camp check, and loot drama.
There is zero D&D style questing .. at least in the beginning.
To be honest you didn't have to camp mob if you didn't want to. That was up to the player. The grind wasn't always that enjoyable, but there were a lot of other things going on in the game. Things you seem to have missed. I also missed some things. It was easy to get caught up in the level race. The world was there and to people who took their time and enjoyed the journey they could have played D&D style like was intended. The world was there to explore. There were dangerous dungeons, nasty monster, and loot to be had. There were people to save and sometimes people to save you. It was all what you made of it. To me that is not a theme park.
If you don't camp, there are a list of boss drop equipment that you are never going to get.
And yes, the grind is not enjoyable.
And yes, it is not a themepark (heck, people here can't even agree on what a MMO is, there is no hope to agree on what a "themepark" is) ... it is a bad (to me) game.
And i LoL when i read "D&D style" ... there is no 50 people camping a single boss in D&D. D&D (and I have played PnP AD&D in grad school) is about small group adventure in a dungeon, not 50 people arguing who gets to go first, and do camp checks with all the camping spots in the dungeons.
It is the furthest experience i have from AD&D. Heck, even D3 dungeon runs are more like AD&D (at least you are actually going through a dungeon) than EQ.
Again I'll remind you that when EQ came out there was no raiding. That was something brought about by the players who rushed to endgame and had nothing to do. They started forming large groups to kill mobs that weren't supposed to be killed in the game. After that developers started making content for that audience. Probably for the worse of the game.
In terms of D&D as I pointed out the intention was to group up and go out on an adventure with some friends. You weren't supposed to get all the loot. It wasn't about the loot. It was about the adventure with friends. A lot of people just made it about the loot and the leveling.
In terms of D&D as I pointed out the intention was to group up and go out on an adventure with some friends. You weren't supposed to get all the loot. It wasn't about the loot. It was about the adventure with friends. A lot of people just made it about the loot and the leveling.
You don't remember how EQ was played?
What adventure? There is none in EQ. 99% of the gameplay is to camp and kill some stuff.
And it does not matter what you think the game is "about". Most players at that time, including myself, play the camping style ... because that is all the game is offering.
There is no NPCs to tell you anything interesting. There is no scripting of any event. All you have are static spawns (or wandering spawns .. which is more rare) waiting to be killed.
I am glad there are better (for me) choices for games today. I will quit gaming if that is the only thing gaming offers.
The game was never about that. It was always about D&D style questing, but in a more open world.
That is not the EQ i remember. It is not about anything but static mob grinding, camp check, and loot drama.
There is zero D&D style questing .. at least in the beginning.
To be honest you didn't have to camp mob if you didn't want to. That was up to the player. The grind wasn't always that enjoyable, but there were a lot of other things going on in the game. Things you seem to have missed. I also missed some things. It was easy to get caught up in the level race. The world was there and to people who took their time and enjoyed the journey they could have played D&D style like was intended. The world was there to explore. There were dangerous dungeons, nasty monster, and loot to be had. There were people to save and sometimes people to save you. It was all what you made of it. To me that is not a theme park.
Unfortunately the overarching story of the game was decided by the developers not the players ergo themepark not sandbox and the D&D style is closer to a sandbox because while you do not have control of the story it was emergent and unique to you not determined by a developer group 2-4 years before you even touched the game. The moment you know you are in a sandbox is when...well... this sort of stuff:
happens. A themepark will have personal drama yes, gods only know how much soda I spat out laughing hearing or reading tall tales from WoW or EQ, but never something so grand or chaotic, nothing so beautiful yet fragile because it is born of player interactions...hundreds upon thousands of people, a world in and of itself... yes I was part of the 2nd Great War of EVE and those times were epic as they were chaotic... nothing... nothing has yet matched that and I've heard similar stories and shared similar emotions with SWG vets. To be part of a sandbox which has been touched by the spark of life is to be in awe of a world which exists in parallel to ours and which is immeasurably more fragile but in which you basically see people, real players, going about their lives, plying their trades (murderous or peaceful) and while that may seem common how many of you can honestly say they've seen merchants moving wares, pirates lying in ambush, craftsmen extracting materials for their trade, bounty hunters seeking out targets,etc,etc.
That is a sandbox, many people doing many things, a chaos of immense proportions in which everything has purpose... not one group of players moving in concert from one place to another going through the motions in almost the same ways.
In terms of D&D as I pointed out the intention was to group up and go out on an adventure with some friends. You weren't supposed to get all the loot. It wasn't about the loot. It was about the adventure with friends. A lot of people just made it about the loot and the leveling.
You don't remember how EQ was played?
What adventure? There is none in EQ. 99% of the gameplay is to camp and kill some stuff.
And it does not matter what you think the game is "about". Most players at that time, including myself, play the camping style ... because that is all the game is offering.
There is no NPCs to tell you anything interesting. There is no scripting of any event. All you have are static spawns (or wandering spawns .. which is more rare) waiting to be killed.
I am glad there are better (for me) choices for games today. I will quit gaming if that is the only thing gaming offers.
I don't think you get the concept of an adventure into the unknown. It's exciting when you are venturing off into dangerous unknown territory and you don't know what is going to happen. To me that is an adventure. Following a scripted story is not an adventure to me. It feels rather hallow. There is usually some boring dialogue to listen to and then you are told to go to point b to clear out some orcs and then return to point a. In EQ you could choose to go to fight the Orcs and earn accolades with the people of Kelethin. You could fight the Gnolls of blackburrow and endear yourself with the people of Qeynos. You could venture into the dangerous depths of befallen full of necromances, traps, pitfalls, and locked doors.
Now I'm not saying that EQ didn't have grind or camps. What I'm saying is it was what you made of it. If you had little imagination then that's all it was I suppose. It was also easy to get caught up in the grind to be more powerful.
The risk/reward factor that EQ had is something that has really not been replicated in MMO's since. Everyone has gotten so used to the carebear entitled mentality that they should be able to attempt to anything in the game with little to no consequences of doing so. This, in my opinion, is one of the biggest reasons games don't hold players like myself very long like EQ did.
The way people QQ on forums nowadays developers are more or less at the mercy of the people who pay to play their games. Also they think the best way to make the most amount of money (which is the overall plan, it is a business after all) is to cater to the widest audience possible. Back in the days of EQ, their weren't all these different "audience types" to deal with. They were on the forefront of online gameplay innovation and were able to do as they pleased.
On top of that, sense of community has been lost in online games. Having content that is 90% solo-able destroys the need to reach out and make friends. How often were things solo-friendly back in vanilla EQ? Past the first few levels of the game you were pretty much grouped up no matter what you were doing until you got pretty high up in the game, and then, and only then, if you were one of a few choice classes (druid, wizard) you gained the ability to kite chains of mobs (at a HUGE risk mind you). But if you were a cleric...warrior....amongst many other classes, you weren't out there trying to do these types of things. Class balance in WoW is what started this downward trend. I never really gave a shit about class balance and I don't to this day. I think certain classes should require teaming up to really shine. Not every class should have the ability to take down another class in a 1v1 situation. If I'm a lone healer and I see a decked out warrior running towards me I should be shitting my pants and immediately get the hell out of there.
Unfortunately we can only hope some developers moving forward will eventually get super nostalgic like a lot of us and make a more niche game that appeals to the hardcore. I get sick of playing Project 1999 because I have maxed characters in EQ more times than I care to count at this point, and it's STILL the best game out there in terms of challenge.
The game was never about that. It was always about D&D style questing, but in a more open world.
That is not the EQ i remember. It is not about anything but static mob grinding, camp check, and loot drama.
There is zero D&D style questing .. at least in the beginning.
To be honest you didn't have to camp mob if you didn't want to. That was up to the player. The grind wasn't always that enjoyable, but there were a lot of other things going on in the game. Things you seem to have missed. I also missed some things. It was easy to get caught up in the level race. The world was there and to people who took their time and enjoyed the journey they could have played D&D style like was intended. The world was there to explore. There were dangerous dungeons, nasty monster, and loot to be had. There were people to save and sometimes people to save you. It was all what you made of it. To me that is not a theme park.
Unfortunately the overarching story of the game was decided by the developers not the players ergo themepark not sandbox and the D&D style is closer to a sandbox because while you do not have control of the story it was emergent and unique to you not determined by a developer group 2-4 years before you even touched the game. The moment you know you are in a sandbox is when...well... this sort of stuff:
happens. A themepark will have personal drama yes, gods only know how much soda I spat out laughing hearing or reading tall tales from WoW or EQ, but never something so grand or chaotic, nothing so beautiful yet fragile because it is born of player interactions...hundreds upon thousands of people, a world in and of itself... yes I was part of the 2nd Great War of EVE and those times were epic as they were chaotic... nothing... nothing has yet matched that and I've heard similar stories and shared similar emotions with SWG vets. To be part of a sandbox which has been touched by the spark of life is to be in awe of a world which exists in parallel to ours and which is immeasurably more fragile but in which you basically see people, real players, going about their lives, plying their trades (murderous or peaceful) and while that may seem common how many of you can honestly say they've seen merchants moving wares, pirates lying in ambush, craftsmen extracting materials for their trade, bounty hunters seeking out targets,etc,etc.
That is a sandbox, many people doing many things, a chaos of immense proportions in which everything has purpose... not one group of players moving in concert from one place to another going through the motions in almost the same ways.
I believe most of the good things in EQ were born solely of player interaction. Some of them were not so good things. As I mentioned the trade areas were born simply from player interaction. Teleports for cash were born of player interaction. Buffs for cash and players giving lower level players free buffs and items were player interaction.
In terms of D&D as I pointed out the intention was to group up and go out on an adventure with some friends. You weren't supposed to get all the loot. It wasn't about the loot. It was about the adventure with friends. A lot of people just made it about the loot and the leveling.
You don't remember how EQ was played?
What adventure? There is none in EQ. 99% of the gameplay is to camp and kill some stuff.
And it does not matter what you think the game is "about". Most players at that time, including myself, play the camping style ... because that is all the game is offering.
There is no NPCs to tell you anything interesting. There is no scripting of any event. All you have are static spawns (or wandering spawns .. which is more rare) waiting to be killed.
I am glad there are better (for me) choices for games today. I will quit gaming if that is the only thing gaming offers.
I don't think you get the concept of an adventure into the unknown. It's exciting when you are venturing off into dangerous unknown territory and you don't know what is going to happen. To me that is an adventure. Following a scripted story is not an adventure to me. It feels rather hallow. There is usually some boring dialogue to listen to and then you are told to go to point b to clear out some orcs and then return to point a. In EQ you could choose to go to fight the Orcs and earn accolades with the people of Kelethin. You could fight the Gnolls of blackburrow and endear yourself with the people of Qeynos. You could venture into the dangerous depths of befallen full of necromances, traps, pitfalls, and locked doors.
Now I'm not saying that EQ didn't have grind or camps. What I'm saying is it was what you made of it. If you had little imagination then that's all it was I suppose. It was also easy to get caught up in the grind to be more powerful.
What adventure into the unknown? You play in EQ zones for so long that you know where every static spawn is. EQ is the furthest from what "adventure into the unknown" means.
And imagination? Games are entertainment products .. if i want to use my imagination, i will read a novel.
And there is less imagination in EQ than new modern games when all you do is kill static spawns.
This "killing Gnolls of blackburrow and endear yourself with people of Qeynos" is just silly. I killed lots of gnolls .. there is no endearing .. there is no adventure .. there is only .. "hey that static mob spawned .. let me hit it before other campers do"
Have you ever camped in L Guk for SMR? What danger ... i don't consider lining up behind 50 people who will "help" you kill the boss in 5 second "dangerous" .. .it is more easy mode than WoW and D3 .. because at least you get to kill the stuff yourself without 50 people "offering help".
I believe most of the good things in EQ were born solely of player interaction. Some of them were not so good things. As I mentioned the trade areas were born simply from player interaction. Teleports for cash were born of player interaction. Buffs for cash and players giving lower level players free buffs and items were player interaction.
What good things? Just camp drama alone outweight all the "good things". I am glad games are now instanced, and there is no more camp drams. I am glad LFR and D3 roll your own loot so there is no loot drama.
The only "good" (to me, of course) thing about EQ is that no one is going to make a game like that anymore.
I believe most of the good things in EQ were born solely of player interaction. Some of them were not so good things. As I mentioned the trade areas were born simply from player interaction. Teleports for cash were born of player interaction. Buffs for cash and players giving lower level players free buffs and items were player interaction.
What good things? Just camp drama alone outweight all the "good things". I am glad games are now instanced, and there is no more camp drams. I am glad LFR and D3 roll your own loot so there is no loot drama.
The only "good" (to me, of course) thing about EQ is that no one is going to make a game like that anymore.
A game is actually a good place for Drama. It's like Drama class in acting. No one really gets hurt, but it's fun because it's emotional. If there is no emotion then there can't be fun. One thing EQ can't be accused of is not provoking emotions in people one way or another. I generally hated Drama in EQ, but have come to realize it actually adds something to the game. Then again I think most people who played EQ (including myself) missed the point of the game. I believe grinding was probably a bit overboard, but again you didn't have to grind for max level or camp certain spots for loot. You didn't have to look up on message boards where the best camp spots were. The could have easily been played like a D&D game if you wanted to do so. That is why it was kind of sandboxish. It had a lot of freedom of choice.
Played EQ on release. It makes me smile when people gripe about bugs; the snakes used to shout "Ouch!" in a human voice when hit. Often you would see just a head moving along... no body. Great game and some fond memories. Posters here are right. It was so good socially because it was groundbreaking at the time. I grouped for the first time at Blackburrow gnoll lair. Myself, a Brit and an Aussie, American, Canadian and a Frenchman. We were all amazed we could play and adventure together.
One of the strong points of the game which would still work is making a class unique. Clerics that rezzed, Necro to summon corpses, druids porting. It made for a fun experience to roll an alt. as it really changed your gameplay. I ran around the room for joy in real life when I managed, as a necro, to recover the corpse of a high level monk; he gave me a sword worth a couple of hundred plat. More money than I knew how to spend. Happy days.
Player interaction for me is a double edged sword. All me finest memories on games are the result of working listening playing with others. All my crapiest moments ate from others.
There are a ton of good people out there. Lately I'm Just not interested in wading through all the go go go leet speak raid minders to find you.
To bad we can't populate a game with just out own personal version of nice people abd still have all the polish
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
Dear lord... in a themepark you have levels, you have ultimate goals (reach x level), in a sandbox you find your own way, there is not goal, no number quantifying your progress, no nothing, all you had was what you wanted to do and how far you got. Put bluntly a themepark was pumping your veins full of crack cocaine everytime you leveled or got a new item whereas a sandbox would set you lose into a world and told you to have fun and guess which system EQ had (hint: there's a reason people spawn camped shit, feared death, etc,etc,etc and it is mostly the same reason people in WoW hate death, do dungeons ad nauseum,etc,etc).
Christ it's like people are not seeing the forest because of the tree... Oh and before anyone says "But then D&D was a themepark in PnP too!" nope because with D&D leveling was not a goal onto itself, the adventure was which was build around your party by the DM while EQ, WoW, etc are adventures built more loosely or tightly around certain goals, certain objectives and which reward a player each time he/she gets closer to it... yup, themeparks are also Skinner Boxes, they will keep you chugging along merrily in a static world believing you are doing anything of real import.
I see your point, but in EQ you mostly could go where you wanted and to what you wanted (barring level). There was no real set path. Leveling may have been the main purpose (themepark) I guess. To me a themepark guides you around to safe places and holds your hand the whole way. I don't believe just because EQ had levels it is a themepark. It never held your hand and there was never a set path to take. You had to find your own way. EQ was not built like WoW really. The equipment you got in EQ was pretty sad. It wasn't really much to look forward to. WoW guided you around with quests and made sure you were always in a safe place. It also rewarded you constantly/easily and made sure you knew where to go.
Yes but EQ had optimum paths for progression and most people took those to get to be the most powerful faster. Equipment is an added reward and a way to quantify your progress a bit better which aided the introduction of instances but for a themepark those aren't really required, what is required is content to burn through and levels to gain (Blizzard mixed the loot whoring from Diablo 2 in here to get the double hook EQ missed).
Oh and EQ did hold your hand because it told you which optimum build of skills (what most call classes) you needed for each role and quantified enemy difficulty in levels though it did have a peculiar and often missed trait which I wish more MMOs had: the discovery element (you'd find certain items without apparent use which later, through dialogue, would suddenly become important).
Most people didn't know any optimal path of progression. It took a long while before I figured out the layout of the zones and where I could go and not go. You may be referring to guides published by players, but you didn't have to follow those. You might have learned of optimal areas for certain level ranges over time if you looked hard outside of game.
EQ didn't really tell you anything about classes. You basically picked a class and went at it. I didn't even realize EQ was a group oriented game when it first came out. I played as a Ranger solo for a long time until I got frustrated that I couldn't progress very well without a group. Then I tried other classes to see how they would fair solo. The holy trinity wasn't created by the developers. It was created by the players. The solo classes/kiting was also invented by the players. The devs didn't intent any of it. They just threw out some D&D 2nd edition classes with some slight modifications. Nothing was really set in stone. That's part of what made it great. There was no raiding, holy trinity, trading areas, ports/buffs for money, etc. It was all invented by the player base.
Well I have to fully agree with the Op. EQ1 style game is something the genre is sorely missing IMO.
[mod edit]
Please edit or remove the post, no discussion on free servers guys.
Also why are we arguing over whether EQ was a them park or sandbox? It was around before those definitions became commonplace. In SWG people coined the term "theme parks" to describe content in the game which was centered around more linear questing. It wasn't even a genre definition at that point.
I would like to point out that most of the things you described were also true of World of Worldcraft when it was released. People starting with the game did not know about holy trinity, grouping rules, loot rules, raiding rules, etc. They picked all the stuff up as they progressed through the game and encountered content that required it.
That is not the EQ i remember. It is not about anything but static mob grinding, camp check, and loot drama.
There is zero D&D style questing .. at least in the beginning.
I would have to disagree with this. WoW had a lot of people who worked on EQ. By that time EQ had implemented a lot of the things the players had done on their own into the game (for worse IMO). For instance they added an auction house. They added class descriptions at character creation to tell you what each class was good at. They added real raids to the game after seeing players who hit the level cap ganging up in large groups on mobs that should have been unkillable.
In WoW we already started to see everything segregated, streamlined, and generally put on rails. It started putting restrictions on a lot of things and forcing you to play a certain way. You had to follow quest paths for optimal loot/exp solo. You had to group up for x dungeon. You had to form a large raid for y dungeon. Instances were put in place. Everything was streamlined into a neat path that anyone could easily follow. The auction house was implemented. Anti kiting was implemented to an extent.
The point is that there really wasn't anything new created by the general public in WoW. It just took what people had done in EQ, made it a themepark where you followed an exact path, and implemented a lot of developer features that restricted what the community could actually come up with in game a lot. It was more interesting when the players were the ones coming up with things that were unintended IMO. As much as EQ wasn't a sandbox it was never a themepark IMO. There were way to many things invented by the community that weren't intended by the developers. It may not have physically altered the world, but in a way it did. For instance having a whole area overrun by people trading sort of altered that areas landscape. It took on a life of it's own. It was like going to a medieval bazaar.
To be honest you didn't have to camp mob if you didn't want to. That was up to the player. The grind wasn't always that enjoyable, but there were a lot of other things going on in the game. Things you seem to have missed. I also missed some things. It was easy to get caught up in the level race. The world was there and to people who took their time and enjoyed the journey they could have played D&D style like was intended. The world was there to explore. There were dangerous dungeons, nasty monster, and loot to be had. There were people to save and sometimes people to save you. It was all what you made of it. To me that is not a theme park.
If you don't camp, there are a list of boss drop equipment that you are never going to get.
And yes, the grind is not enjoyable.
And yes, it is not a themepark (heck, people here can't even agree on what a MMO is, there is no hope to agree on what a "themepark" is) ... it is a bad (to me) game.
And i LoL when i read "D&D style" ... there is no 50 people camping a single boss in D&D. D&D (and I have played PnP AD&D in grad school) is about small group adventure in a dungeon, not 50 people arguing who gets to go first, and do camp checks with all the camping spots in the dungeons.
It is the furthest experience i have from AD&D. Heck, even D3 dungeon runs are more like AD&D (at least you are actually going through a dungeon) than EQ.
Again I'll remind you that when EQ came out there was no raiding. That was something brought about by the players who rushed to endgame and had nothing to do. They started forming large groups to kill mobs that weren't supposed to be killed in the game. After that developers started making content for that audience. Probably for the worse of the game.
In terms of D&D as I pointed out the intention was to group up and go out on an adventure with some friends. You weren't supposed to get all the loot. It wasn't about the loot. It was about the adventure with friends. A lot of people just made it about the loot and the leveling.
You don't remember how EQ was played?
What adventure? There is none in EQ. 99% of the gameplay is to camp and kill some stuff.
And it does not matter what you think the game is "about". Most players at that time, including myself, play the camping style ... because that is all the game is offering.
There is no NPCs to tell you anything interesting. There is no scripting of any event. All you have are static spawns (or wandering spawns .. which is more rare) waiting to be killed.
I am glad there are better (for me) choices for games today. I will quit gaming if that is the only thing gaming offers.
Unfortunately the overarching story of the game was decided by the developers not the players ergo themepark not sandbox and the D&D style is closer to a sandbox because while you do not have control of the story it was emergent and unique to you not determined by a developer group 2-4 years before you even touched the game. The moment you know you are in a sandbox is when...well... this sort of stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olT05ozGayQ
happens. A themepark will have personal drama yes, gods only know how much soda I spat out laughing hearing or reading tall tales from WoW or EQ, but never something so grand or chaotic, nothing so beautiful yet fragile because it is born of player interactions...hundreds upon thousands of people, a world in and of itself... yes I was part of the 2nd Great War of EVE and those times were epic as they were chaotic... nothing... nothing has yet matched that and I've heard similar stories and shared similar emotions with SWG vets. To be part of a sandbox which has been touched by the spark of life is to be in awe of a world which exists in parallel to ours and which is immeasurably more fragile but in which you basically see people, real players, going about their lives, plying their trades (murderous or peaceful) and while that may seem common how many of you can honestly say they've seen merchants moving wares, pirates lying in ambush, craftsmen extracting materials for their trade, bounty hunters seeking out targets,etc,etc.
That is a sandbox, many people doing many things, a chaos of immense proportions in which everything has purpose... not one group of players moving in concert from one place to another going through the motions in almost the same ways.
I don't think you get the concept of an adventure into the unknown. It's exciting when you are venturing off into dangerous unknown territory and you don't know what is going to happen. To me that is an adventure. Following a scripted story is not an adventure to me. It feels rather hallow. There is usually some boring dialogue to listen to and then you are told to go to point b to clear out some orcs and then return to point a. In EQ you could choose to go to fight the Orcs and earn accolades with the people of Kelethin. You could fight the Gnolls of blackburrow and endear yourself with the people of Qeynos. You could venture into the dangerous depths of befallen full of necromances, traps, pitfalls, and locked doors.
Now I'm not saying that EQ didn't have grind or camps. What I'm saying is it was what you made of it. If you had little imagination then that's all it was I suppose. It was also easy to get caught up in the grind to be more powerful.
The risk/reward factor that EQ had is something that has really not been replicated in MMO's since. Everyone has gotten so used to the carebear entitled mentality that they should be able to attempt to anything in the game with little to no consequences of doing so. This, in my opinion, is one of the biggest reasons games don't hold players like myself very long like EQ did.
The way people QQ on forums nowadays developers are more or less at the mercy of the people who pay to play their games. Also they think the best way to make the most amount of money (which is the overall plan, it is a business after all) is to cater to the widest audience possible. Back in the days of EQ, their weren't all these different "audience types" to deal with. They were on the forefront of online gameplay innovation and were able to do as they pleased.
On top of that, sense of community has been lost in online games. Having content that is 90% solo-able destroys the need to reach out and make friends. How often were things solo-friendly back in vanilla EQ? Past the first few levels of the game you were pretty much grouped up no matter what you were doing until you got pretty high up in the game, and then, and only then, if you were one of a few choice classes (druid, wizard) you gained the ability to kite chains of mobs (at a HUGE risk mind you). But if you were a cleric...warrior....amongst many other classes, you weren't out there trying to do these types of things. Class balance in WoW is what started this downward trend. I never really gave a shit about class balance and I don't to this day. I think certain classes should require teaming up to really shine. Not every class should have the ability to take down another class in a 1v1 situation. If I'm a lone healer and I see a decked out warrior running towards me I should be shitting my pants and immediately get the hell out of there.
Unfortunately we can only hope some developers moving forward will eventually get super nostalgic like a lot of us and make a more niche game that appeals to the hardcore. I get sick of playing Project 1999 because I have maxed characters in EQ more times than I care to count at this point, and it's STILL the best game out there in terms of challenge.
I believe most of the good things in EQ were born solely of player interaction. Some of them were not so good things. As I mentioned the trade areas were born simply from player interaction. Teleports for cash were born of player interaction. Buffs for cash and players giving lower level players free buffs and items were player interaction.
What adventure into the unknown? You play in EQ zones for so long that you know where every static spawn is. EQ is the furthest from what "adventure into the unknown" means.
And imagination? Games are entertainment products .. if i want to use my imagination, i will read a novel.
And there is less imagination in EQ than new modern games when all you do is kill static spawns.
This "killing Gnolls of blackburrow and endear yourself with people of Qeynos" is just silly. I killed lots of gnolls .. there is no endearing .. there is no adventure .. there is only .. "hey that static mob spawned .. let me hit it before other campers do"
Have you ever camped in L Guk for SMR? What danger ... i don't consider lining up behind 50 people who will "help" you kill the boss in 5 second "dangerous" .. .it is more easy mode than WoW and D3 .. because at least you get to kill the stuff yourself without 50 people "offering help".
What good things? Just camp drama alone outweight all the "good things". I am glad games are now instanced, and there is no more camp drams. I am glad LFR and D3 roll your own loot so there is no loot drama.
The only "good" (to me, of course) thing about EQ is that no one is going to make a game like that anymore.
A game is actually a good place for Drama. It's like Drama class in acting. No one really gets hurt, but it's fun because it's emotional. If there is no emotion then there can't be fun. One thing EQ can't be accused of is not provoking emotions in people one way or another. I generally hated Drama in EQ, but have come to realize it actually adds something to the game. Then again I think most people who played EQ (including myself) missed the point of the game. I believe grinding was probably a bit overboard, but again you didn't have to grind for max level or camp certain spots for loot. You didn't have to look up on message boards where the best camp spots were. The could have easily been played like a D&D game if you wanted to do so. That is why it was kind of sandboxish. It had a lot of freedom of choice.
Memories...
Played EQ on release. It makes me smile when people gripe about bugs; the snakes used to shout "Ouch!" in a human voice when hit. Often you would see just a head moving along... no body. Great game and some fond memories. Posters here are right. It was so good socially because it was groundbreaking at the time. I grouped for the first time at Blackburrow gnoll lair. Myself, a Brit and an Aussie, American, Canadian and a Frenchman. We were all amazed we could play and adventure together.
One of the strong points of the game which would still work is making a class unique. Clerics that rezzed, Necro to summon corpses, druids porting. It made for a fun experience to roll an alt. as it really changed your gameplay. I ran around the room for joy in real life when I managed, as a necro, to recover the corpse of a high level monk; he gave me a sword worth a couple of hundred plat. More money than I knew how to spend. Happy days.
There are a ton of good people out there. Lately I'm Just not interested in wading through all the go go go leet speak raid minders to find you.
To bad we can't populate a game with just out own personal version of nice people abd still have all the polish