Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I've driven a car for decades I must be an expert on hot to design one. I've used my body for decades Imust be an expert in how it functions. I've watched tv for decades I must be an expert in tv programming.
Observing or even using something for long periods of time does not make you an expert in anything more than how you use that product
You know what makes a great car (Porsche Cayman) and what makes a bad car,(Ford Pinto). You know whats good for your body (Natural whole foods) and whats bad for it.(Fast Food). You know what is a good tv show (Cosmos) and whats a bad tv show (Kardashians).
I think someone who plays MMORPGs enough should have a good opinion of what makes a good one and a bad one
What exactly makes someone a Game or MMORPG expert? Is is experience playing many? Amount of time playing a few? Does one have to actually work on development of one in order to be called and expert?
Not necessarily but you must demonstrate mature and logical line of thinking before you are taken seriously. Internet prophets are a dime a dozen. And they all seem to have some special insight.
One sure sign that you are not and expert, is if you think the solution is simple, and that it can be reduced to a dozen or so lines on a forum post.
We get these threads all the time.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I've driven a car for decades I must be an expert on hot to design one. I've used my body for decades Imust be an expert in how it functions. I've watched tv for decades I must be an expert in tv programming.
Observing or even using something for long periods of time does not make you an expert in anything more than how you use that product
You know what makes a great car (Porsche Cayman) and what makes a bad car,(Ford Pinto). You know whats good for your body (Natural whole foods) and whats bad for it.(Fast Food). You know what is a good tv show (Cosmos) and whats a bad tv show (Kardashians).
I think someone who plays MMORPGs enough should have a good opinion of what makes a good one and a bad one
What exactly makes someone a Game or MMORPG expert? Is is experience playing many? Amount of time playing a few? Does one have to actually work on development of one in order to be called and expert?
Not necessarily but you must demonstrate mature and logical line of thinking before you are taken seriously. Internet prophets are a dime a dozen. And they all seem to have some special insight.
One sure sign that you are not and expert, is if you think the solution is simple, and that it can be reduced to a dozen or so lines on a forum post.
We get these threads all the time.
I think the problem is that we are dealing with extreemes here.
The only person who called me an expert was someone who was countering my views.
One doesn't have to be either an expert or a moron. it can be between. the world works in matters of gray
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
-Gaming is an innovation industry, if you copy what has been done before you will suffer for it.
-There is more to gaming the killing
-There is more to RPG then fantasy
-Its cheaper to make a good game then it is to advertise a mediocre game
-classes and quests where a great concept in the 70s but its time to move on to skill based systems.
-if it looks like its popular chances are the popularity (like bow ties) is about to die.
-Gaming should be looked at as a service rather than a product
-There is more money to be made (and at a smaller cost) in innovation then there is advertising and convincing the public of your non-innovative agenda. (This is true for most industries though)
added: ( I can tell I said the same thing more than once above and in so doing I forgot the other items)
-to pvp you have to dehumanize your opponent which is the same social structures 'clans' take on. If you are in the clan you are good and exceptions are made, If you are out of the clan then you are different. Understanding the social system is important when creating a game. People really pvp for collaboration work
Wanted to type of few things and actually had but leave it at
Created a post, argued with anyone who disagreed, validated your opinion with years of experience, claim to be able to code yet cant grasp the fact that people doing it for a living MAY know more about it than you. The whole topic ( i have read every post) screams of arrogant ass not getting the game you want.
I started gaming on a BBC micro computer, started on the internet with bulletin boards, have been involved in MANY open/closed beta testing phases in both indie and AAA games and disagree with you. Am I more qualified to comment than the OP, no but I still disagree with your stance and opinion.
The reason games fail is not about design decisions in 90% of cases its down to the fact of BUDGET and TIME CONSTRAINTS, which are also linked to the budget. Game producers are driven by investors and software houses, not those on forums making ever more extreme demands for content, options, choices.
Get yourself into an indie dev project, watch how they run, get involved from pre-alpha before a line of code is written and software and licensing decisions are made then follow it for 6-8 years through to launch. Do it a few times and you MAY just be qualified to comment on what is happening with game production and why it may be happening. Then consider the intensity of being a game designer under the management of a software house also with the added constraints of a marketing team and possibly a licence owner and you soon get to grips with the fact the lead designer has very tight constraints and the code team make almost ZERO decisions.
Until then you are another whiney poster on MMORPG.com
I rarely post here but this thread got me really angry, anyway there is the ammo for you to add one more to your post count and get a bit more attention.
Originally posted by SEANMCAD Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by SEANMCADOriginally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by SEANMCADthe world works in matters of gray
aaand this is where we come full circle and you take your own statement here and apply it to your original post so what are we saying here?that this entire conversation has been because I didn't put 'in my opinion..'I think I just got trolled.+I never said I was an expert. someone who disagreed with me didI'm saying that you should probably acknowledge that the opposite is also true for each point you listed in your original post.nope hehe I see then it was I who got trolled
Innovation is overrated in gaming, especially if you can´t explain your gameplay in terms that people can understand, which basically means explaining it in terms of other games, which means it isn´t innovate. Yes, a very few game with completely new ideas may take off, but it will be slow, and risky.
Put it this way. You make a very innovative game. You tell me how much fun it is. I ask you to explain it. Boom, you are over. Either you are going to explain it in terms of other games ´ it is just like WOW except we are doing this different.... ´ or else I am never going to buy your game until others have played it and can convince me it is interesting.
Derivative design is where it is at. You make a game that is close enough to what others have done that the basics of your game is easy to explain. Then you tell them things you are doing different... and finally you tell them new system you are adding to the game. In the end, your game may only be 50% similar to what you based it off of, but it is similar enough that prospective players can see where your design is coming from.
Innovation is overrated in gaming, especially if you can´t explain your gameplay in terms that people can understand, which basically means explaining it in terms of other games, which means it isn´t innovate. Yes, a very few game with completely new ideas may take off, but it will be slow, and risky.
Put it this way. You make a very innovative game. You tell me how much fun it is. I ask you to explain it. Boom, you are over. Either you are going to explain it in terms of other games ´ it is just like WOW except we are doing this different.... ´ or else I am never going to buy your game until others have played it and can convince me it is interesting.
Derivative design is where it is at. You make a game that is close enough to what others have done that the basics of your game is easy to explain. Then you tell them things you are doing different... and finally you tell them new system you are adding to the game. In the end, your game may only be 50% similar to what you based it off of, but it is similar enough that prospective players can see where your design is coming from.
well I would think there is a grey line between innovation and derivative design.
what I am calling 'innovation' is really this...(to hammer another point). is a killing quest really the only thing I can unless unless I play some indie game?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by SEANMCADthe world works in matters of gray
aaand this is where we come full circle and you take your own statement here and apply it to your original post
so what are we saying here?that this entire conversation has been because I didn't put 'in my opinion..'I think I just got trolled.+I never said I was an expert. someone who disagreed with me did
I'm saying that you should probably acknowledge that the opposite is also true for each point you listed in your original post.
nope
hehe I see then it was I who got trolled
I really have barely any idea what you are talking about in this substring.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
how about escourt missions, defend the npc quests, explore quests, time based objectives, crafting quests all have been done... what sort of quests do you want? none at all, player created content? try a sandbox game they exist
what I am calling 'innovation' is really this...(to hammer another point). is a killing quest really the only thing I can unless unless I play some indie game?
Because Farmville, Tetris, Sims, Civilization and Myst were never made? I never played in a fantasy football league either.
That really is why I disagree with you. You lump all the killing games together, and then say ´why do you have to have killing in your games´ and ignore the thousands of other games that are out there that don´t involve killing orcs.
they will never learn and never will change as long you guys still pay for the same crap over and over, they don't need the success, they don't care for good review or bad ones, they don't even care if you like they games or not if you play or not, as long you are paying, getting DLCs, defending bad games design, or saying its alpha they will fix it.
want better games? start to pay for only the ones who deserve
But who decides what is deserving?
Many of the posters here don't even remotely share my taste in "things" let alone the few who share some overlap in games. Which of course is fine. The way it should be.
I am really enjoying myself in ESO, despite it not being what I would have initially wanted in an "Elder Scrolls Game", and I would much prefer a grindy game that had little to no quests than a "quest based game". How many people here hate ESO and hate grinding?
I think people will spend money on the things they think are deserving and will get what they "get" out of the experience.
I started my MMO career playing EQ2. I can say if I knew of Wurm and Darkfall then I never would have touched it.
Determining the demand of players based only on what they buy is a risky endevour despite many developers thinking its safe.
But that still doesn't mean that the games they are spending their money on are undeserving.
If people are spending money, and continue to spend money, on certain games, then they are "deserving". They might not be perfect or to someone's taste but if people want to spend money on them then they are getting something out of it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If I'm reading this thread correctly.. some sort of space architect is making a new version of Tetris?
Once a thread gets derailed this much it should really just be locked. The entire point gets lost, whether you agreed with it or not. I also wanted to throw in that The Sims is the best selling franchise of all-time, but no single version is the best selling PC game last I knew.
There are a ton of games out there, of every variety. You simply have to look for them - and I'm pretty sure most of us will never find the "perfect" game. I'm not sure why a gamer cares if the game he loves is AAA, or how many subs it has.
Oh, and never buy a Ford - since Henry Ford designed and built many different vehicles if memory serves correctly.
If I'm reading this thread correctly.. some sort of space architect is making a new version of Tetris?
Once a thread gets derailed this much it should really just be locked. The entire point gets lost, whether you agreed with it or not. I also wanted to throw in that The Sims is the best selling franchise of all-time, but no single version is the best selling PC game last I knew.
There are a ton of games out there, of every variety. You simply have to look for them - and I'm pretty sure most of us will never find the "perfect" game. I'm not sure why a gamer cares if the game he loves is AAA, or how many subs it has.
Oh, and never buy a Ford - since Henry Ford designed and built many different vehicles if memory serves correctly.
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
-Gaming is an innovation industry, if you copy what has been done before you will suffer for it.
-There is more to gaming the killing
-There is more to RPG then fantasy
-Its cheaper to make a good game then it is to advertise a mediocre game
-classes and quests where a great concept in the 70s but its time to move on to skill based systems.
-if it looks like its popular chances are the popularity (like bow ties) is about to die.
-Gaming should be looked at as a service rather than a product
-There is more money to be made (and at a smaller cost) in innovation then there is advertising and convincing the public of your non-innovative agenda. (This is true for most industries though)
added: ( I can tell I said the same thing more than once above and in so doing I forgot the other items)
-to pvp you have to dehumanize your opponent which is the same social structures 'clans' take on. If you are in the clan you are good and exceptions are made, If you are out of the clan then you are different. Understanding the social system is important when creating a game. People really pvp for collaboration work
Each one of your points is a fallacy. Prime examples, CoD, GTA, Battlefield.
Also, if people wanted more than WoW, we'd see innovative games being made by AAA studios. Instead it's smaller companies, and they usually get skewered by reality. Take a look at Shards Online. It provides plenty of really high-concept stuff, but less than 1000 people step up to support it. If it was Shards of Duty Online then maybe.
well developers like those on Shard, they failed on polish of their product. The expect to gather attention just cause they wanted to add some interesting features on an outdated game... sorry but here is already Albion Online which also focus on tablets ...
other games who dare to go on innovative mechanics they also try to polish their product and be more attractive, check TERA, GW2, ArcheAge, BlackDesert.. All of these doesnt matter how much successful they were, they managed to deliver a polished product which was/is appealing to test and try it...
Yeah, I didn't like what I saw of Shard either, if they want to impress people they really need to show off more.
My boyfriend hasn't played a new game since he became discouraged with Star Trek Online and Star Wars : ToR. I haven't bought a new game since Final Fantasy 14 original 1.0 version. Since, I can't even play with anyone I know, and soloing or pugging gets very boring quickly.
Tera and Rift are awesome as free to play games but should have been buy to play, Guild Wars 2 isn't my type of game, and Aion was a cool concept, but needs a lot more to it.
I never even play most of these mmos unless they go free to play, they are always just the same exact game remade over and over. The Elder Scrolls Online seems to be a cool game that reminds you of Everquest 1, but what we really needed was a true successor to Everquest 1 with modern day technology.
Wildstar is more like WoW 2.0, and it is an awesome game that has terribly ugly graphics. It would be nice if Titan could be the true WoW 2.0 or WoW 3.0, with better looking graphics and some actual innovation over WoW.
EQNext needs to show more information and build some actual hype, since Landmark doesn't do anything for me. They are so quiet and hushed on the game, that there is almost nothing known about it. Pretty hard to get excited about a game that you know nothing about.
Other than EQNext and Titan, there is nothing out there to be looking forward to, since I think Repopulation and Star Citizen are PVP and/or Fps type of games? Repopulation looks like a Fps type of mmo though, and I don't want a game that plays like Halo or Call of Duty.
So I don't know, there is nothing out there at the moment at all, because they just aren't speaking much and they aren't giving us any information whatsoever.
When will companies learn that we want a good sci-fi pve sandbox game?
Other than EQNext and Titan, there is nothing out there to be looking forward to, since I think Repopulation and Star Citizen are PVP and/or Fps type of games? Repopulation looks like a Fps type of mmo though, and I don't want a game that plays like Halo or Call of Duty.
Actually just EQNext. Titan is scrapped. I doubt Blizz will ever make another MMORPGs. The big new success is Hearthstone (great CCG game), and they are also pushing a MOBA. They will obviously continue to push out WoW content but I don't think they will bet on classical type MMORPGs again.
Other than EQNext and Titan, there is nothing out there to be looking forward to, since I think Repopulation and Star Citizen are PVP and/or Fps type of games? Repopulation looks like a Fps type of mmo though, and I don't want a game that plays like Halo or Call of Duty.
Actually just EQNext. Titan is scrapped. I doubt Blizz will ever make another MMORPGs. The big new success is Hearthstone (great CCG game), and they are also pushing a MOBA. They will obviously continue to push out WoW content but I don't think they will bet on classical type MMORPGs again.
Titan was restarted not scrapped.
Repopulation has the option to FPS but by what I understand it will just be minimal differences overall (perspective shift and control scheme shift but otherwise the FPS mode and the third person mode would be the same thing just different ways of controlling your character).
Other than EQNext and Titan, there is nothing out there to be looking forward to, since I think Repopulation and Star Citizen are PVP and/or Fps type of games? Repopulation looks like a Fps type of mmo though, and I don't want a game that plays like Halo or Call of Duty.
Actually just EQNext. Titan is scrapped. I doubt Blizz will ever make another MMORPGs. The big new success is Hearthstone (great CCG game), and they are also pushing a MOBA. They will obviously continue to push out WoW content but I don't think they will bet on classical type MMORPGs again.
Titan was restarted not scrapped.
Repopulation has the option to FPS but by what I understand it will just be minimal differences overall (perspective shift and control scheme shift but otherwise the FPS mode and the third person mode would be the same thing just different ways of controlling your character).
They said titan is "back to the drawing board". My bet is that it is a way to scrap it, or may be change it to a non-MMO.
I won't bet on it being a traditional MMO, and of course we will see what will happen when it does.
Other than EQNext and Titan, there is nothing out there to be looking forward to, since I think Repopulation and Star Citizen are PVP and/or Fps type of games? Repopulation looks like a Fps type of mmo though, and I don't want a game that plays like Halo or Call of Duty.
Actually just EQNext. Titan is scrapped. I doubt Blizz will ever make another MMORPGs. The big new success is Hearthstone (great CCG game), and they are also pushing a MOBA. They will obviously continue to push out WoW content but I don't think they will bet on classical type MMORPGs again.
Titan was restarted not scrapped.
Repopulation has the option to FPS but by what I understand it will just be minimal differences overall (perspective shift and control scheme shift but otherwise the FPS mode and the third person mode would be the same thing just different ways of controlling your character).
They said titan is "back to the drawing board". My bet is that it is a way to scrap it, or may be change it to a non-MMO.
I won't bet on it being a traditional MMO, and of course we will see what will happen when it does.
Back to the drawing board means back to concept stage, not a scrap but a complete restart... now it could be an MMO still or not, in that you are correct in saying it could not be anymore but if they were to scrap it they'd have said as much (Blizzard ain't much on keeping DNFs around by what I know).
Comments
Not necessarily but you must demonstrate mature and logical line of thinking before you are taken seriously. Internet prophets are a dime a dozen. And they all seem to have some special insight.
One sure sign that you are not and expert, is if you think the solution is simple, and that it can be reduced to a dozen or so lines on a forum post.
We get these threads all the time.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I think the problem is that we are dealing with extreemes here.
The only person who called me an expert was someone who was countering my views.
One doesn't have to be either an expert or a moron. it can be between. the world works in matters of gray
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
aaand this is where we come full circle and you take your own statement here and apply it to your original post
Wanted to type of few things and actually had but leave it at
so what are we saying here?
that this entire conversation has been because I didn't put 'in my opinion..'
I think I just got trolled.+
I never said I was an expert. someone who disagreed with me did
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
so what are we saying here?
that this entire conversation has been because I didn't put 'in my opinion..'
I think I just got trolled.+
I never said I was an expert. someone who disagreed with me did
I'm saying that you should probably acknowledge that the opposite is also true for each point you listed in your original post.
nope
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Created a post, argued with anyone who disagreed, validated your opinion with years of experience, claim to be able to code yet cant grasp the fact that people doing it for a living MAY know more about it than you. The whole topic ( i have read every post) screams of arrogant ass not getting the game you want.
I started gaming on a BBC micro computer, started on the internet with bulletin boards, have been involved in MANY open/closed beta testing phases in both indie and AAA games and disagree with you. Am I more qualified to comment than the OP, no but I still disagree with your stance and opinion.
The reason games fail is not about design decisions in 90% of cases its down to the fact of BUDGET and TIME CONSTRAINTS, which are also linked to the budget. Game producers are driven by investors and software houses, not those on forums making ever more extreme demands for content, options, choices.
Get yourself into an indie dev project, watch how they run, get involved from pre-alpha before a line of code is written and software and licensing decisions are made then follow it for 6-8 years through to launch. Do it a few times and you MAY just be qualified to comment on what is happening with game production and why it may be happening. Then consider the intensity of being a game designer under the management of a software house also with the added constraints of a marketing team and possibly a licence owner and you soon get to grips with the fact the lead designer has very tight constraints and the code team make almost ZERO decisions.
Until then you are another whiney poster on MMORPG.com
I rarely post here but this thread got me really angry, anyway there is the ammo for you to add one more to your post count and get a bit more attention.
so what are we saying here? that this entire conversation has been because I didn't put 'in my opinion..' I think I just got trolled.+ I never said I was an expert. someone who disagreed with me did
I'm saying that you should probably acknowledge that the opposite is also true for each point you listed in your original post.
nope
hehe I see then it was I who got trolled
Innovation is overrated in gaming, especially if you can´t explain your gameplay in terms that people can understand, which basically means explaining it in terms of other games, which means it isn´t innovate. Yes, a very few game with completely new ideas may take off, but it will be slow, and risky.
Put it this way. You make a very innovative game. You tell me how much fun it is. I ask you to explain it. Boom, you are over. Either you are going to explain it in terms of other games ´ it is just like WOW except we are doing this different.... ´ or else I am never going to buy your game until others have played it and can convince me it is interesting.
Derivative design is where it is at. You make a game that is close enough to what others have done that the basics of your game is easy to explain. Then you tell them things you are doing different... and finally you tell them new system you are adding to the game. In the end, your game may only be 50% similar to what you based it off of, but it is similar enough that prospective players can see where your design is coming from.
well I would think there is a grey line between innovation and derivative design.
what I am calling 'innovation' is really this...(to hammer another point). is a killing quest really the only thing I can unless unless I play some indie game?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I really have barely any idea what you are talking about in this substring.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Because Farmville, Tetris, Sims, Civilization and Myst were never made? I never played in a fantasy football league either.
That really is why I disagree with you. You lump all the killing games together, and then say ´why do you have to have killing in your games´ and ignore the thousands of other games that are out there that don´t involve killing orcs.
But that still doesn't mean that the games they are spending their money on are undeserving.
If people are spending money, and continue to spend money, on certain games, then they are "deserving". They might not be perfect or to someone's taste but if people want to spend money on them then they are getting something out of it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If I'm reading this thread correctly.. some sort of space architect is making a new version of Tetris?
Once a thread gets derailed this much it should really just be locked. The entire point gets lost, whether you agreed with it or not. I also wanted to throw in that The Sims is the best selling franchise of all-time, but no single version is the best selling PC game last I knew.
There are a ton of games out there, of every variety. You simply have to look for them - and I'm pretty sure most of us will never find the "perfect" game. I'm not sure why a gamer cares if the game he loves is AAA, or how many subs it has.
Oh, and never buy a Ford - since Henry Ford designed and built many different vehicles if memory serves correctly.
- Nellus
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
well developers like those on Shard, they failed on polish of their product. The expect to gather attention just cause they wanted to add some interesting features on an outdated game... sorry but here is already Albion Online which also focus on tablets ...
other games who dare to go on innovative mechanics they also try to polish their product and be more attractive, check TERA, GW2, ArcheAge, BlackDesert.. All of these doesnt matter how much successful they were, they managed to deliver a polished product which was/is appealing to test and try it...
lol what? Are you living in reverse universe?
My gaming blog
Yeah, I didn't like what I saw of Shard either, if they want to impress people they really need to show off more.
My boyfriend hasn't played a new game since he became discouraged with Star Trek Online and Star Wars : ToR. I haven't bought a new game since Final Fantasy 14 original 1.0 version. Since, I can't even play with anyone I know, and soloing or pugging gets very boring quickly.
Tera and Rift are awesome as free to play games but should have been buy to play, Guild Wars 2 isn't my type of game, and Aion was a cool concept, but needs a lot more to it.
I never even play most of these mmos unless they go free to play, they are always just the same exact game remade over and over. The Elder Scrolls Online seems to be a cool game that reminds you of Everquest 1, but what we really needed was a true successor to Everquest 1 with modern day technology.
Wildstar is more like WoW 2.0, and it is an awesome game that has terribly ugly graphics. It would be nice if Titan could be the true WoW 2.0 or WoW 3.0, with better looking graphics and some actual innovation over WoW.
EQNext needs to show more information and build some actual hype, since Landmark doesn't do anything for me. They are so quiet and hushed on the game, that there is almost nothing known about it. Pretty hard to get excited about a game that you know nothing about.
Other than EQNext and Titan, there is nothing out there to be looking forward to, since I think Repopulation and Star Citizen are PVP and/or Fps type of games? Repopulation looks like a Fps type of mmo though, and I don't want a game that plays like Halo or Call of Duty.
So I don't know, there is nothing out there at the moment at all, because they just aren't speaking much and they aren't giving us any information whatsoever.
When will companies learn that we want a good sci-fi pve sandbox game?
Actually just EQNext. Titan is scrapped. I doubt Blizz will ever make another MMORPGs. The big new success is Hearthstone (great CCG game), and they are also pushing a MOBA. They will obviously continue to push out WoW content but I don't think they will bet on classical type MMORPGs again.
Titan was restarted not scrapped.
Repopulation has the option to FPS but by what I understand it will just be minimal differences overall (perspective shift and control scheme shift but otherwise the FPS mode and the third person mode would be the same thing just different ways of controlling your character).
They said titan is "back to the drawing board". My bet is that it is a way to scrap it, or may be change it to a non-MMO.
I won't bet on it being a traditional MMO, and of course we will see what will happen when it does.
Back to the drawing board means back to concept stage, not a scrap but a complete restart... now it could be an MMO still or not, in that you are correct in saying it could not be anymore but if they were to scrap it they'd have said as much (Blizzard ain't much on keeping DNFs around by what I know).