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The Perfect MMO

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  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985


    Originally posted by Jairoe03
    I have to agree with DMKano, taking parts of MMO's is fun to conceive of a "ideal" Frankenstein version of what you envision of an MMO, but ultimately taken those systems separately from different MMO's does take a lot away from the fact that these systems were designed around each other to fit together as a whole. Sure, we can break down MMO's in terms of its system but like a craft system isn't entirely defined by the actual crafting (imo) as it is also defined by how the resources are spread out in the world and how they are acquired and gained and then redistributed etc. When we think in terms of Economy, we have to think in terms of combat, accessibility, social organization etc. too and vice versa for all those things.
    Generally these games are designed as whole worlds with parts that fit together, I don't think its as simple as "blending" features (from your favorite MMO's) together and hope they magically work properly without including the other parts that help support that particular feature as well. Star Wars Galaxies wasn't just great because of one feature, it was a sum of its parts, i.e. OP's original list of his picked features, half of them were from 1 MMO even across all the categories that he established.
    I disagree. It's completely reasonable to assume that if we are designing a new MMO using a list of favorite parts of existing MMOs as a guideline/inspiration, that this new MMO's design can also be developed to have its systems fit together (not magically, but with design skill) as a whole world.
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member RarePosts: 4,812
    Originally posted by sunandshadow
     
    I disagree. It's completely reasonable to assume that if we are designing a new MMO using a list of favorite parts of existing MMOs as a guideline/inspiration, that this new MMO's design can also be developed to have its systems fit together (not magically, but with design skill) as a whole world.

    The problem is not the "can't be done" part, the problem is the effort / result ratio. -> it can be done, for 1 (or a handful) player(s).

    "if we are designing a new MMO using a list of favorite parts of existing MMOs"  - no such thing as we, and favourite is different to everyone. Just look at this very thread, with only a dozen replies, but still, you won't be able to "frankenstein" together a so-called perfect game for just their needs, let alone a much larger playerbase. That's why I and many others said above, there's no such thing as perfect mmo. Even if someone would make a perfect one for your needs, you would find parts in it you don't like 100%, or what other games are doing better.

     

    All you can do (from dev's point of view) is either stick to your own favourite aspects and hoping that the resulting game won't be too niche and will lure in enough players - if you're an indie who wants to build his love project. Or, on the other hand the suits will give you the parameters based on lots of research, of which areas and in what amount you must put in the game, and where should your focus be, etc. to make a common ground for the largest possible share of the playerbase.

    As a player, your only option is searching for games which suits you the most. If you find a prefect one, good for you. The market nowadays is stuffed with games anyways...

  • JabasJabas Member UncommonPosts: 1,249

    Today my perfect mmorpg is ArcheAge.

    Tomorow i dont know image

     

     

     

  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,429
    Originally posted by Bayen

     

     

    What would be YOUR perfect MMO?

     

     

    GENERAL

     

    Combat: Age of Conan

    Crafting: Vanguard

    Lore: Everquest and WoW 

    World Design: WoW

    Class Design: City of X

    Housing: Everquest 2

     

    PVE

     

    Questing: Star Wars the Old Republic

    Small party instances: World of Warcraft

    Raids: City of X

    World Bosses: Everquest

     

     

    PVP

     

    Open World: World of Warcraft

    Battlegrounds: World of Warcraft

    Arena: Don't know

    Guild vs Guild: Don't know

    Siege: Don't know

    Large Scale: No idea

     

     

    This is my opinion based on my own experiences.

     

     

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  • jdizzle2k13jdizzle2k13 Member UncommonPosts: 251

    General

    Combat:  Guild Wars 2

    Crafting:  Guild Wars 2

    Lore:  World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings, or Elder Scrolls Online.  But if I could pick the story I wanted from something that isn't an mmo yet, I would pick Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series.

    World Design:  World of Warcraft or Guild Wars 2

    Class Design:  Rift or Guild Wars 2.  I like being able to create my own specialization and be effective with that specialization.

    Housing:  Don't know, don't have a particular preference for housing, but to me it isn't necessary.

    PvE

    Questing:  Guild Wars 2, Skyrim (which isn't an MMO but I like its questing).  I was going to say I don't want to see marks over people's heads saying they need something done, but you kinda have to have some clue that someone needs something.  Honestly, though, I'd prefer a more dynamic and personal way to quest than either of them, but I can understand how hard it would be to do when you share a world with hundreds or thousands of other people.

    Small Party Instances:  Guild Wars 2, World of Warcraft, or Rift.  But I would hope that the class design doesn't turn these small party instances into zerg fests like Guild Wars 2's tend to be.

    Raids:  World of Warcraft, no other game I've played actually has raids, or if they do I haven't done them.   Honestly, I would prefer things to be able to be done in a small party, where there is enough class synergy to get the job done since getting a raid together and keeping it together tends to be a hassle.

    World Bosses:  Guild Wars 2

    PvP

    Open World:  World of Warcraft, but give real meaning to it.  Put objectives to fight over in places people are likely to be around, and make them something people are going to want/need so that winning it feels like a reward, and make them want to keep it.

    Battlegrounds:  World of Warcraft

    Arena:  World of Warcraft

    Guild vs Guild:  Haven't really played a game with a strong focus on Guild vs Guild.

    Siege:  Guild Wars 2

    Large Scale:  Guild Wars 2 (but only because that's the only game I've played with large scale pvp.  I was also thinking World of Warcraft's Alterac Valley or Isle of Conquest, but 80 people in one spot doesn't quite equate to hundreds.)

     

     

     

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  • nomotagnomotag Member UncommonPosts: 166
    Originally posted by ChicagoCub
    You're still looking back.  I want something new, something forward looking, something that hasn't been tried before.  What you've made is just another MMO with a different selection of ingredients...one from column A, one from column B, etc.  Like Taco Bell; it's all the same stuff just in different combinations.

    It's not the worst way to make an mmo. Though my (current) perfect mmo idea doesn't come from any mmo I have seen.

    The idea is to do a crafting mmo completely focused on crafting as an ends to itself rather then just a means to a end. Have you ever played harvest moon? Well picture it like that only for more then just plants. You would craft everything you make in the game world using different tools and abilities. Ex; you might craft a sword, by putting he bar of iron on the anvil and hitting it with a hammer. After 4 hits, it's a sword.

    That is at like the base level, but you would be able to have different tools and different materials changing how that simple action works. Like you might craft a hammer that swings in an arc allowing your to forge 5 swords at a time if you position them right. You might find a rare fire ore that shoots out flames every time it is struck, or a metal that won't forge if it can see you so you have to find a way to work in the dark or from far enough away it can't see you.

    Different crafts come with different requirements. Blacksmithing is class with no time restrictions. Ore always keeps and doesn't need time to grow. Meanwhile something like potion-making would be very twitch based. You have to add the ingredients at just the right time or else the whole thing explodes!

    Housing would be a big part of this. Your workshop would be your primary way of advancement. As you gain more anvils, storage cabinets, mine carts you can craft both more kinds of items and higher quality items. A low level blacksmith shop might just be a single anvil and a box, but a high level one will be 3 lines of anvils, a automatic sprinkler system and carts on rails to ferry supplies around the shop.

     

  • kakasakikakasaki Member UncommonPosts: 1,205

    Easy:

     

    Give me a game like Shadowbane but with updated graphics and a more stable code/servers. Don't need/want anything else.

    A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Diablo 3 RoS
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,013
    Originally posted by ChicagoCub
    You're still looking back.  I want something new, something forward looking, something that hasn't been tried before.  What you've made is just another MMO with a different selection of ingredients...one from column A, one from column B, etc.  Like Taco Bell; it's all the same stuff just in different combinations.

    I couldn't agree more. I don't want a new UO, EQ, DaoC, SWG, Eve or WoW because those games already existed. I want a game that lets me experience something I didn't know I wanted to experience until I heard about that new game.

     

    The unique experiences I have had while playing MMO's is taking part in player communities and playing in a world with others, and that's what makes MMO's great. My perfect MMO must have that, everything else is better in SP/COOP/matchmaking games.

     

    I want a different experience more than I need a perfect MMO of old parts. That's what I am hoping Star Citizen, Elite:Dangerous and EQ Next can deliver.

    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985
    @nomotag Have you tried some of the existing crafting-focused MMOs like A Tale In The Desert, Wurm Online, Xsyon, etc.?  Personally I love the idea of crafting MMO inspired by the mechanics of Harvest Moon, among other single-player crafting games.  (E.G. Harvest Moon doesn't have customizable appearances, houses, mounts, etc. which I'd want to be a major focus of MMO crafting.)
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • nomotagnomotag Member UncommonPosts: 166
    Originally posted by sunandshadow
    @nomotag Have you tried some of the existing crafting-focused MMOs like A Tale In The Desert, Wurm Online, Xsyon, etc.?  Personally I love the idea of crafting MMO inspired by the mechanics of Harvest Moon, among other single-player crafting games.  (E.G. Harvest Moon doesn't have customizable appearances, houses, mounts, etc. which I'd want to be a major focus of MMO crafting.)

    I have tried salem, but didn't get too far into it. It seems like a lot of these crafting mmos are really geared towards PVP.  I kind of think a crafting mmo should be geared to getting along with your neighbor rather then killing them. I have to try some of the ones you listed though. Harvest Moon actually did have mounts, houses and a customizable appearance. Just not as much as you would want in a mmo.

    You know another little thought. Harvest Moon's gameplay is actually inspired by Zelda. A more classical mmo that plays like the Zelda would be kind of neat.

  • SacriaSacria Member Posts: 53
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    OP your post looks good. The only thing i would change is the Combat. I dont likle TERA's combat at all, id take the combat from GW2, AoC, or a moddified version of ESO(without targeting). The rest of your post looks good enough for me.

    rofl......................... Taking gw2 combat over tera..There must be limitations to stupidity.

     

    Anyway op I almost completely agree with you.

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985
    Originally posted by nomotag
    Originally posted by sunandshadow
    @nomotag Have you tried some of the existing crafting-focused MMOs like A Tale In The Desert, Wurm Online, Xsyon, etc.?  Personally I love the idea of crafting MMO inspired by the mechanics of Harvest Moon, among other single-player crafting games.  (E.G. Harvest Moon doesn't have customizable appearances, houses, mounts, etc. which I'd want to be a major focus of MMO crafting.)

    I have tried salem, but didn't get too far into it. It seems like a lot of these crafting mmos are really geared towards PVP.  I kind of think a crafting mmo should be geared to getting along with your neighbor rather then killing them. I have to try some of the ones you listed though. Harvest Moon actually did have mounts, houses and a customizable appearance. Just not as much as you would want in a mmo.

    You know another little thought. Harvest Moon's gameplay is actually inspired by Zelda. A more classical mmo that plays like the Zelda would be kind of neat.

    I'm not interested in pvp-focused games, myself; I strongly prefer PvE.  A Tail In the Desert and Xsyon are somewhere in the middle; neither has good PvE combat, but ATitD has no combat at all, and Xsyon has a PvE server recently branched off from the original PvP server.

     

    The Zelda series I'm not a big fan of.  IMO the best thing about it is the tools like the grappling hook and boomerang and the way they are used to solve puzzles; a feature shared by games like Super Metroid and Okami.  This seems like a particularly difficult feature to integrate well into MMO gameplay.  Some of the Zelda games also have decent arcade-ish combat, but other games are better examples of this kind of combat.  Vindictus is an example of an MMO that has successfully adapted this kind of combat to MMO gameplay.

    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • loulakiloulaki Member UncommonPosts: 944
    Originally posted by Bayen

    Hello

     

    What would be YOUR perfect MMO?

    I have chosen what I think is the best MMO for each game system, please use my list and substitute what you think is the best MMO for each category.

     

    I'll go first.

     

    GENERAL

     

    Combat: Tera

    Crafting: Star Wars Galaxies

    Lore: World of Warcraft

    World Design: Lineage 2

    Class Design: Star Wars Galaxies

    Housing: Star Wars Galaxies

     

    PVE

     

    Questing: Star Wars the Old Republic

    Small party instances: World of Warcraft

    Raids: World of Warcraft

    World Bosses: Lineage 2

     

     

    PVP

     

    Open World: World of Warcraft

    Battlegrounds: World of Warcraft

    Arena: World of Warcraft

    Guild vs Guild: Tera

    Siege: Lineage 2

    Large Scale: Elder Scrolls Online

     

     

    My list is quite limited because I only ever liked a few MMO's as you can tell, I would be very interested in what the community thinks best fits each category, and If I missed any important categories then please add your own.

     

    GENERAL

     

    Combat: BlackDesert Online

    Crafting: Star Wars Galaxies

    Lore: GuildWars2

    World Design: BlackDesert Online

    Class Design: ElderScrolls Online

    Housing: EverQuest Next

     

    PVE

     

    Questing: BlackDesert Online

    Small party instances: NO

    Raids: NO

    World Bosses: Lineage 2 / GuildWars 2

     

     

    PVP

     

    Open World: Lineage 2

    Battlegrounds: hell NO

    Arena: GuildWars 2 mists

    Guild vs Guild: Lineage2 / BlackDesert Online

    Siege: Lineage 2 / BlackDesert Online

    Large Scale: only Open world PLEASE

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  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,324

    Arent they super useful, these threads that expect you to have played every game in existence to actually understand what the poster is talking about ?

    I have no clue what the OP thinks is the ideal MMO, and never going to be, since all he said is "X should be like in game Y". No information whatsoever if you havent played game Y, and even if you did, you probably still have no idea.

     

    Absolute dealbreakers:

    - Not subscription based or truely free. I dont do "free to play" or rather "pay to win".

    - No third person perspective available. Third person is still not perfect, but its closer to what we see in reallife (almost 180 degree in front of you) than first person.

    - Item decay. I dont do treatmill gaming (working on staying at the same position).

     

    Very likely dealbreakers:

    - Realm vs Realm or worse Race vs Race PvP. Very unlikely I would ever tolerate that one. I want to choose my race and class freely according to my preferences.

    - Skillbased or worse levelless rulesystem. Those are never fun.

    - No gear subgame. Working for days and weeks on optimal gear is what a huge part of the fun of a MMO is.

    - Loading screens. I want a seamless world.

    - Instancing. It removes the Massive from Massive Multiplayer Online.

     

     

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • nomotagnomotag Member UncommonPosts: 166
    Originally posted by sunandshadow
    Originally posted by nomotag
    Originally posted by sunandshadow
    @nomotag Have you tried some of the existing crafting-focused MMOs like A Tale In The Desert, Wurm Online, Xsyon, etc.?  Personally I love the idea of crafting MMO inspired by the mechanics of Harvest Moon, among other single-player crafting games.  (E.G. Harvest Moon doesn't have customizable appearances, houses, mounts, etc. which I'd want to be a major focus of MMO crafting.)

    I have tried salem, but didn't get too far into it. It seems like a lot of these crafting mmos are really geared towards PVP.  I kind of think a crafting mmo should be geared to getting along with your neighbor rather then killing them. I have to try some of the ones you listed though. Harvest Moon actually did have mounts, houses and a customizable appearance. Just not as much as you would want in a mmo.

    You know another little thought. Harvest Moon's gameplay is actually inspired by Zelda. A more classical mmo that plays like the Zelda would be kind of neat.

    I'm not interested in pvp-focused games, myself; I strongly prefer PvE.  A Tail In the Desert and Xsyon are somewhere in the middle; neither has good PvE combat, but ATitD has no combat at all, and Xsyon has a PvE server recently branched off from the original PvP server.

     

    The Zelda series I'm not a big fan of.  IMO the best thing about it is the tools like the grappling hook and boomerang and the way they are used to solve puzzles; a feature shared by games like Super Metroid and Okami.  This seems like a particularly difficult feature to integrate well into MMO gameplay.  Some of the Zelda games also have decent arcade-ish combat, but other games are better examples of this kind of combat.  Vindictus is an example of an MMO that has successfully adapted this kind of combat to MMO gameplay.

    I was thinking mostly of the tools. Would they be hard to put in mmo gameplay? I can't think of a reason why.
     

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985
    Originally posted by Adamantine

    Arent they super useful, these threads that expect you to have played every game in existence to actually understand what the poster is talking about ?

    I have no clue what the OP thinks is the ideal MMO, and never going to be, since all he said is "X should be like in game Y". No information whatsoever if you havent played game Y, and even if you did, you probably still have no idea.

     

    You can always ask.  It's too much work and too many words for others to read if one describes a whole MMO design in a single post; this list/survey form is like a code that transmits a lot of data quickly if you know how to decode it.  And for the games I've played, I do mostly feel that I understand what is mean by simply saying "the combat of game x" or "the crafting of game Y".  But if you are actually interested in more details about how combat or crafting or whatever works in a game you are unfamiliar with, just ask the person who mentioned that game.

    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985


    Originally posted by nomotag
    I was thinking mostly of the tools. Would they be hard to put in mmo gameplay? I can't think of a reason why.
    That's actually a complex and interesting question. :) I won't claim to know 100% for sure that zelda/metroid/okami-type tools can't be incorporated well into MMO gameplay. But here's why I think it would be problematic:

    Puzzles are inherently single player activities. When you get even a small group of people together trying to do a puzzle it is a pain in everyone's ass. This is because communication takes effort, time, and cooperation, making the activity involve waiting, arguing, boredom, and frustration. Plus many people find it unsatisfying to solve only part of a puzzle, because teammates have already solved the other parts. End result, most puzzles are significantly less fun to do as part of a group than doing the same puzzle alone. (Puzzles that are grindy and require little group organization or planning, such as jigsaw puzzles, may be an exception.)

    Turn-based creative problem solving strategic activities, from board games and CCGs to tactical combat, reduce the pressure on players to perform fast and give them more time to chat with each other about how to solve a puzzle-like situation. But the tools in question are designed for real-time arcade-like play by a single player, with a significant skill component. You could set up a Zelda-like level and require each player to navigate it on their own, but you'd create an unpleasant situation where two or three players easily navigate some kind of platformer-like path using their grappling hook tool, but their final party member doesn't have as much dexterity or practice with the tool and keeps falling off and needing to start over at the beginning.

    So, I don't see a good way to integrate dexterity tools with any kind of real-time cooperative play, which is almost a requirement for MMOs.

    (My personal experience with how bad group puzzle-solving and cooperative platformer play can be comes from Dofus, MapleStory, and that online game where everyone is a mouse...forget what it's called.)

    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • nomotagnomotag Member UncommonPosts: 166
    Originally posted by sunandshadow

     


    Originally posted by nomotag
    I was thinking mostly of the tools. Would they be hard to put in mmo gameplay? I can't think of a reason why.

    That's actually a complex and interesting question. :) I won't claim to know 100% for sure that zelda/metroid/okami-type tools can't be incorporated well into MMO gameplay. But here's why I think it would be problematic:

     

    Puzzles are inherently single player activities. When you get even a small group of people together trying to do a puzzle it is a pain in everyone's ass. This is because communication takes effort, time, and cooperation, making the activity involve waiting, arguing, boredom, and frustration. Plus many people find it unsatisfying to solve only part of a puzzle, because teammates have already solved the other parts. End result, most puzzles are significantly less fun to do as part of a group than doing the same puzzle alone. (Puzzles that are grindy and require little group organization or planning, such as jigsaw puzzles, may be an exception.)

    Turn-based creative problem solving strategic activities, from board games and CCGs to tactical combat, reduce the pressure on players to perform fast and give them more time to chat with each other about how to solve a puzzle-like situation. But the tools in question are designed for real-time arcade-like play by a single player, with a significant skill component. You could set up a Zelda-like level and require each player to navigate it on their own, but you'd create an unpleasant situation where two or three players easily navigate some kind of platformer-like path using their grappling hook tool, but their final party member doesn't have as much dexterity or practice with the tool and keeps falling off and needing to start over at the beginning.

    So, I don't see a good way to integrate dexterity tools with any kind of real-time cooperative play, which is almost a requirement for MMOs.

    (My personal experience with how bad group puzzle-solving and cooperative platformer play can be comes from Dofus, MapleStory, and that online game where everyone is a mouse...forget what it's called.)

    I don't think puzzles are a inherently single player thing. In fact, I think they might be more closely related to group activities. You do literal puzzles with people all the time, in school they would put you in groups to work on word puzzles. I think puzzles are kind of better in groups. Your less likely to get stuck as a group then you are alone. Portal 2 did co-op puzzles well and runescape had a rather fun minesweeper clone that was played with multiple players.

    The real time thing is kind of a different talk. It's place were I think mmos are moving in the wrong directions. Overall, mmos seem to be marching to be more action oriented. I am thinking this is the wrong direction to be going. The idea is that if we get to true action, then mmo combat won't be dull anymore, but that is a trap. You can easily have dull action combat. I think it might be smarter to move to slower combat. Pull a u-turn and go right to turn base. It lets you have more in depth systems and allows players to communicate again. Also it would make bandwidth cheaper.

    Another thing to think about is how puzzle are the zelda puzzles. A lot of the time it's a really simple use bomb on weak wall type puzzles. It's mostly an exploration puzzle were you try and find everything in the world that looks like a weak wall so you can blow it up. I think you could easily fit something like that into a mmo. (It would actually surprise me if there wasn't something like it in a lot of mmos already.)

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985

    @nomotag Hmm.  You must have had quite different experience with group puzzle-solving than me; mine has been universally terrible, except for things that are more social activity than actual thought-requiring puzzle (e.g. jigsaws, crosswords).  I've enjoyed competitive puzzle-solving, like racing a friend when we each have our own copy of the same killer sudoku or seeing who gets stuck and has to ask for help first when we each have a copy of the same new adventure game.  But I really detest being in any kind of situation where other players who are supposed to be "on my side" are harassing me to hurry, especially if they want me to blindly follow a pattern memorized from a wiki instead of actually thinking about a puzzle and figuring out how to solve it on my own.

    I like both action and turn-based combat (as long as the turn-based combat is tactical and the action is arcade-like and can be customized pre-battle through changing which spells are equipped or what body type is being used or something like that).  So I guess I feel neutral toward that part of your post.  IMO an ideal (but impractical) MMO would have two combat systems, one action/arcade/brawler and one tactical turn-based.

    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
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