Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

[Editorial] General: In Support of Convenience

BMunchausenBMunchausen Staff WriterMMORPG.COM Staff Posts: 400

Recently, I was reading an old article by ex-Firefall CEO/developer Mark Kern wherein he expressed the concern that MMOs were becoming too easy. Bemoaning World of Warcraft as the killer of authentic MMO experience, he went on to suggest that the genre was headed toward nothing but the rote fulfillment of empty, easily-achieved goals. But is the issue that MMOs are becoming too easy, or is it just that they're becoming a lot less inconvenient than they used to be?

Read more of Neilie Johnson's In Support of Convenience.

image

Comments

  • EzRdrEzRdr Member UncommonPosts: 40
    Great article. I have to agree with many of the points you bring up. I still don't think it is fair to those who enjoy more hardcore features, but life truly isn't fair and this is one of those examples. That being said I'm playing ArcheAge and enjoy the sandpark aspects it has to offer.
  • ET3DET3D Member UncommonPosts: 330

    I think that a link to Mark Kern's article is needed. It's hard to judge an article which is a rebuttal without reading the original.

    I searched for it, read it, and I think that your commentary doesn't really answer it. Mark's point was that things have been made easier over time, to the point where there's not much challenge. Even quoting your own WoW experience, it's not clear from what period, and he clearly said that the game got easier over time. It's that rush to the top that's IMO the worst problem. I would rather have lots of interesting content which takes a lot of time to get through. (That said, I'm sure it's easier to just develop the end game for those who like it and make the money off them, rather than invest a lot of story content.)

    I agree with most of what he said, but I think that game developers need to rethink the issue of difficulty. City of Heroes allowed the player to change the difficulty level (per character), and for me that was a very useful feature. Not all players want the exact same challenge, and if developers gave thought to difficulty options in MMO's they might be able to make the game attractive to a wider range of players.

  • ThupliThupli Member RarePosts: 1,318
    Sounded like a rail against mr kern.

    I like your point about convenience. We do want it and there is need to reduce huge timesinks.

    however, I don't think that wow did itself any favors by converting all quests to wadded up quest hubs in cataclysm. Convenient, yes, but lost its soul with too much generic.


    I like the map points, the quest tracker, and some of the other features that add convenience and reduce time, but its the trade off of becoming generic and losing the "twists in the road" that I love as a fantasy lover that has killed it for me.
  • CrusadesCrusades Member Posts: 480
    That is a picture of mother nature's birthing canal.
  • DEAD.lineDEAD.line Member Posts: 424

    Are we talking about too much convinience or a lack of a help. There's nothing wrong with waypoints but flying mounts, for example, can, and probably will ruin the world aspect because it's uncontrolled. Auction houses don't ruin community, but the ease of access can easily lead to an under cutting, self destructing economy.

     

    In short, it's about providing enough content and mechanics that allow players to have direct fun, but also enough for players to properly reach for something. Obviously, the issue lies in creating a game where 90% of the mmo is easy, accessiable and completeable. You talk about modern mmorpgs, but what you see is them losing their players in an extremely fast downward spiral they never recover from. SWTOR disagrees, yes, but let's not kid outselves. It failed at first and went F2P fast, and is holding on thanks to it's massive IP.

     

    MMORPGS aren't FPS or MOBAs, where even with low amounts of content the replay value can be huge. MMORPGs need constant supplies of updates, so i'd say making a too convinient game would will probably end badly. 

  • CrusadesCrusades Member Posts: 480
    ^^ Themeparks mix the two concepts, but people are tired of themeparks, now the people want sandbox, but the sandbox is too inconvenient, it's an endless cycle of reasons to complain. You just have to figure out what you like. I seem to like fantasy rpg, but I don't like uneven circumstances, for example gear and state difference. I happen to like fps too, so for my pvp experience I typically play console fps, for my pve experience I play mmorpgs and I only stick around long enough to see the content once. With that in mind the ease in which raid finder and flex have made things in wow for example , I'm subbed for one month then I drop again because I can see all the content at the end of the patch.
  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    There's 2 aspects to difficulty that wow has damaged, the first is well discussed - technical difficulty, the second is long term achievments and goals aka lengthy rep grinds. Both provide satisfying gameplay and both have been damaged by developers pandering to a player base that actually does not understand that effort = reward applies doubly so to long term goals. Too often we hear how people think this grind takes too long, or why can't they exchangs 'tokens' for shortcuts. On top of this how we apparanty must be spoon fed with 'interesting options' to quote naive untalented games designers regurgitating formulaic patterns from books to make themselves sound good.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967

    People aren't tired of theme parks, they're tired of every themepark being the same.  That's not the fault of the style of MMO it's the fault of lazy development. There hasn't been much innovation, and when there is something nice done it tends to go overlooked in favor of "unapologetic themeparks".  Just because people like rich engrossing stories doesn't mean they like to be on rails the entire time doing something they've done 100's of time in another title. Something can be described without a script.

     

    From what I've read during my time on MMORPG most people want believable immersed story lines so they care about the world and NPCs they encounter but they ALSO want the ability to break off and do "things" and affect the world around them. It's not about Sandbox vs Themepark or Easy vs Difficult.  It's about innovation vs status quo. There is a sweet spot between the 2 styles that has yet to been found  by todays devs.

     

    Theme parks are getting terrible because the developers aren't doing a good job at them, but hard turns into 100% player generated content isn't a viable solution.  Our society and lack of respect for anything beyond our personal bubbles will destroy immersion in 100% sandboxes.  Take a look at how trials go in Archeage or how EVE is and ask yourself is that what player generated content is about for RPGs.

     

    IMO we've been mislabeling most games as "theme parks" when they are in fact 1 roller coaster ride which can be fun but will lose it's luster after 2-3 rides.  What mmoRPGs need are ACTUAL theme parks with many different separate experiences of varying difficulty inside them that the players can visit and try at their leisure (rails, sandbox, competitive games, social areas) under the umbrella of an interesting setting.

    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • SamhaelSamhael Member RarePosts: 1,537

    I think it *is* a rail against Kern. Kicking a guy when he's down... and yes, if even 1/3 of the stuff that trickled out about his departure was correct, he likely deserved it. 

    For me, sandbox games are very difficult to get involved/immersed in. While I'm not a huge fan of WoW, I played it far longer than I played SWG. And while it seems to be trending away from complexity, it was a lot more fun for me during that time. 

  • DauntisDauntis Member UncommonPosts: 600

    Great article and I agree 100%.

     

    Here is the thing I just don't really get, why does WoW get such a bad rap on convenience. If you don't want to do quests you can avoid them. There are rewards to exploration, contrary to the BS. There are rare drops, rare pets, and interesting tidbits out in the wilderness. I have leveled characters up doing very minimal quests, you can level up with PvP... I just don't get the on rails comments and hatred.

    Want difficulty, make a warrior on a pvp server and make your way to the opposite factions leveling zones. No quests, risks of being ganked, new areas to explore... sounds kinda like a sandbox to me.

    Help support an artist and gamer who has lost his tools to create and play: http://www.gofundme.com/u63nzcgk

  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,401
    Thank god for CCP and EVE.
  • Lowfer69Lowfer69 Member UncommonPosts: 65
      No,  they are becoming too easy. Convenient or not, there is no challenge in modern MMO's. Go watch anyone stream Archeage  for any amount of time. There is almost completely no fear of dying unless they run into a player of the apposing faction at the wrong game time in the wrong game place. If dying to quest mobs is inconvenient and that is considered a bad thing; can we soon look forward to starting the game at max level with all the gear you need for end game? Cause that's the excuse I hear for being able to solo from lvl 1-50 now is; the game doesn't matter until end game anyway. Then why even bother making people lvl? Just start them capped, oh and make sure you make  that a new genre so I know what to avoid. I want my games challenging and time consuming from 1-50 , otherwise WTF am I paying for? 
     
     
  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by BMunchausen

    Read more of Neilie Johnson's In Support of Convenience.

    WoW had something Galaxies sorely lacked—personality. Kern (and other hardcore players) might lament the notion of using narrative to guide players through the experience, but when I play a game, that's what I'm signing up for. I want the designer to surprise and delight me; I want to connect with and experience their ideas. Being dropped into an empty game world to me is like buying a movie ticket and having the director say, “OK, here's a camera. Make your own movie.”

    I cannot get "on board" with Johnson's commentary

    narratives add flavor / immersion - no denying that

    but i think they are also a distraction to community playing

     

    mmos were not solo friendly pre WOW, and that turned-off many gamers

    but the other extreme of story driven games catering to soloers is no better

  • RobbgobbRobbgobb Member UncommonPosts: 674

    I couldn't even stand this article enough to read all of it. It is a "Make the game easy and I will play" and is why MMOs have become something I play less and less of. I can get just as much fun from other games. Convenience is not the right word as it is catering to people who don't want to invest the time. Some don't have the time and others just want the easy road. It is funny how in GW2 that I have heard the discussion if you are not crafting to 80 with secondary characters that you are doing it wrong. 

     

    I miss corpse runs as it made me take things more cautiously. I did not just run through a zone and if I die just click a button and run again. I miss how had to search out things for quests though truthfully would be fine with that if it was just for part of the quests like items found on ground or enemies that started a quest. I miss the toughness of games that did not require going into a dungeon to find.

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916

    The road from UO to Super Mario is paved with convenience.

     

    The convenience excuse was used to turn "virtual worlds" into "games". The majority of gamers don't want a virtual world, they want instantly accessible entertainment that comes in convenient bite-sized chunks. Those players still want the illusion and eye-candy of a virtual world, as long as it doesn't get in the way of their instant-action desires.

    Of course, convenience is now being applied to the idea of progression in games. Can't (or don't want to) spend the time to get those shinies ? Just buy them for real money ! You can have it right NOW !

  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    Originally posted by Lowfer69
      No,  they are becoming too easy. Convenient or not, there is no challenge in modern MMO's. Go watch anyone stream Archeage  for any amount of time. There is almost completely no fear of dying unless they run into a player of the apposing faction at the wrong game time in the wrong game place. If dying to quest mobs is inconvenient and that is considered a bad thing; can we soon look forward to starting the game at max level with all the gear you need for end game? Cause that's the excuse I hear for being able to solo from lvl 1-50 now is; the game doesn't matter until end game anyway. Then why even bother making people lvl? Just start them capped, oh and make sure you make  that a new genre so I know what to avoid. I want my games challenging and time consuming from 1-50 , otherwise WTF am I paying for? 
     
     

    Archeage gives people choice.  That's not a bad thing, you can take risks if you WANT and venture out beyond the safe areas. The other activities aren't "easy". They all have weight to them and time/travel consequences. I do agree MMOs are getting too fast food like, but Archeage is definitely a step in the right direction. One that all developers should take note of.

    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Sign In or Register to comment.