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Fightsabre blows in this one...

GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,048

I just wanted to share my thoughts when it comes to the Lightsabre combat(dubbed: fightsabre in the official SW magazine).

1. No chains: If only we had a system like Aion has where you can actually chain your skills and if two(or more!) chains come at the same time(say from the dodge, skill a and a proc) you must CHOOSE which one to actually use(others go to waste). I mean fightsabre is basically a series of Marks of Contact(think of it as of kata system in the martial arts) accentuated by the Form(if MoC is a kata, then the Form is a Karate/Judo/etc). How can you have a serie of MoCs if you can't chain skills O.o?

2. No sense of impact(VERY important for some forms): Basically it does not feel like you are actually hitting an opponent. That's...rather tragic when speaking of such a classic weapon as the Lightsabre is. Imagine picking up a Powersword in 40k and not feeling the impact(I can feel it even in the DoWs lol...).

3. Forms are FUBARd: They basically don't give any bonuses and don't alter the animations for skills(or even for the way the Lightsabre is held lol). Not only that, but some are missing(Form II "Makashi" { http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_II:_Makashi } and Form VI "Niman" { http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VI:_Niman }) and others are misrepresented(one is TOTALLY butchered!). I'll go form by form(I'll also include a link to the wookieepedia so you can review it for yourself-but be careful! it's a tower of text for each one of them!):

Form I "Shii-Cho" (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_I:_Shii-Cho): This is a rather angular and wide form. The fact that it is AoE focused within the game is more than ok. What bothers me is its focus on jumps(all power comes from the skill called "Zealous Leap"). If you read even a small bit of that link, you'll see that the "need for space" is listed as one of the major cons of the form. Besides, it's rather difficult to actually do the angular, wide strikes while either jumping or after jumping.

Form III "Soresu" (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_III:_Soresu): This is implemented just fine. Kudos Bioware! Great job!

Form IV "Ataru" (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_IV:_Ataru): You even don't have to go and read about it on the wookieepedia. Hell, even in the game it says "enters an ACROBATIC lightsabre form". Now get these kicks: talent tree where it's located has NO, ZERO, NADA, ZILCH, NULL mobility increasing talents, be it either in the form of increased move speed or in the form of enhancing your primary leap ("Force Leap"). Hell, as mentioned earlier the "Zealous Leap" is located in another talent tree altogether(Shii-Cho's "Focus")! WTF is going on??? HOW IS IT "ACROBATIC" THEN??? Not to mention that the implementation of Ataru feels almost NOTHING like the real Ataru! Now you'll see where the move speed bonus went...

Form V "Shien/Djem So" (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_V:_Shien_/_Djem_So): Just to get one thing clear. In the game you are actually using DJEM SO even if it says you are using SHIEN. This is one of the most well known Forms. The form that was used both by the father(Anakin) and by the son(Luke). It is strong, it is brutal. It is completely single target oriented as well. It is not that mobile tho(WTF is the game shoving mobility here then?). And this is where Ataru's MS buff went O.o. All of those parts fit with the game's adaptation(hell, even the animations are brutal enough! They look like you are clubbing your foe to death with a baseball bat-just like djem should look like). One thing is missing tho. A rather big thing. Djem So tires the opponent by First using the power of his strikes against him twice(Energy is lost both on the swing and on the block) then when he is fatigued, beating him to death. Think of the scene in the ep.VI when Luke brought Vader down(in the Death Star's Throne Room). Think of the way he was swinging that Lightsabre of his. That's the second part. The First part is TOTALLY MISSING in the game. Why? Because there are no reactionary skills OR combo/chain skills. Meh...

Form VII "Juyo/Vaapad" (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VII:_Juyo_/_Vaapad): I am fairly satisfied with the implementation of this one as well. A bit more focus on the actual swordplay would be nice, but it is ok. Nothing to say more.

I just wanted to share my opinions on this. It amazes me how some forms are almost perfectly implemented(Soresu, Juyo) while others are like they have been...rushed in the game(most obvious in the Shii-Cho <---> Ataru <---> Djem So example). They got only the basic stuff right while missing whole points of some of those forms altogether! Anyhow. I'm eagerly awaiting your thoughts...   

Comments

  • ImpacthoundImpacthound Member UncommonPosts: 367
    I think it's unrealistic to have the high expectations that you do for animation and form in a hotbar/queued-ability MMO like SWTOR, but I'm really impressed with what you posted. With better technology and combat engines in the future, it's definitely something to hope for. I can't remember which game it was, but there was a multiplayer lightsaber-focused Star Wars title about 10 years ago that had server hosting and the specific forms and stances you like, with twitch-based combat that relied on recognizing stances and taunts/baiting to strike. Good players could survive 1v2 or 1v3 and people would have small rivalries with one another as their playstyles clashed. Maybe it was the Jedi Academy games? I'm not sure.
  • brihtwulfbrihtwulf Member UncommonPosts: 975

    I think your points are valid, and it would be nice to have additional animations and better reactiveness with targets as well.  However, there is one single reason they don't have them: it's an MMORPG.  The unfortunate truth of an MMO is that you can't have as complex animations, high poly-count models, and to some extent high resolution textures as you can in a single-player game.  You have to take into consideration the number of players and models on the screen at once, and the effect that has on graphics and base processing.  Also, the amount of calculations needed for those more complex interactions (both for yourself, your enemies, and allies) is significantly higher the more you add.

    So, perhaps in the not-so-distant future we will be able to have much better animations and what we would expect from some exciting combat.  But for now it's just out of reach.

  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405

    And yet in Everquest Next the classes you add to your character will hold and wield the same weapon in different ways. So how is this technically out of reach?

    Great post OP, very fun to read. 

    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,344
    Very nice research and observation. Just one thing although this may not be fair as the movie the original was what 1977 when Vader kills Obi-Wan the way they fight also you do not actually feel the impact of the swords and also when the killing blow came granted Obi-Wan disappeared but the swords through the early movies did not feel like they had impact probably because of the bad props. I know no excuse for the game but just saying. It was all an illusion of sound and light. Every time they were supposed to hit it was the sound of the blades clashing that gave you that impression not the visual.
    image
  • ImpacthoundImpacthound Member UncommonPosts: 367
    Originally posted by brihtwulf

    I think your points are valid, and it would be nice to have additional animations and better reactiveness with targets as well.  However, there is one single reason they don't have them: it's an MMORPG.  The unfortunate truth of an MMO is that you can't have as complex animations, high poly-count models, and to some extent high resolution textures as you can in a single-player game.  You have to take into consideration the number of players and models on the screen at once, and the effect that has on graphics and base processing.  Also, the amount of calculations needed for those more complex interactions (both for yourself, your enemies, and allies) is significantly higher the more you add.

    So, perhaps in the not-so-distant future we will be able to have much better animations and what we would expect from some exciting combat.  But for now it's just out of reach.

    You can sacrifice poly count to giver everyone having smooth animations, it just takes the right art style to bring it all together, WoW is proof of concept. I'd suffer a Clone Wars-style blocky character as long as everything moved smoothly.

     

    SWTOR has smoother looking blocks and strikes than WoW side-by-side, but it wasn't the huge step up that I think people would like from other lightsaber-focused games.

  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,048

    It's not out of reach. Well some things are, but they messed up Ataru(I have a tingling feeling that it was a last addition to JS/SM classes) BADLY. How would one fix it:

    Move Zealous leap to Combat. Make it proc Opportune attack. Make Ataru Mastery give 50%/100% chance to Force Leap to proc Opportune attack. Give Z.L a 15% buff on next attack used(the same for F.L after investing 2 points into Ataru Mastery-stacks with the Opportune, but not with each other). There problem fixed. Easy is it not?

    But what about Shii-Cho then? Simple. Give it a whirlwind attack(idk the name lol). Make the Felling Blow/Singularity proc from the W.A. Simple.

    Chains are also present in another mmo(at least one!) so they shouldn't be a problem.

    Reactivity, well it's a matter of art direction in both the visual art and the sound art. Do you really think that WoW/Aion/etc have real reactivities? My arse they do. It's just that they are better designed to make you FEEL like a blow actually landed. About the real reactivity: lol. We won't see that in the MMOland until at least 2020(even if then!). I was talking about the fake one, not the real one btw.

    It's not about what actually happens, but about what the mind perceives is happening. That's the recipe for the TRUE fun. Making mind think it is actually in the game/movie. <-lol that sounded so Palpatine like :D!

  • trancejeremytrancejeremy Member UncommonPosts: 1,222
    There's basically only 1 class out of 4 (or 2 out of 8, rather) that uses lightsabers for combat. It's not like the focus of the game was lightsaber combat.

    R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there

  • Fenrir767Fenrir767 Member Posts: 595

    What was said before, it's an MMORPG and the more animations you have the more complex they are the more difficult the programming and the cost. What you want sounds more like a Star Wars Lightsaber figthing game not an MMORPG would it be cool yes is it realistically feasible. 

    In EQ: N your character may hold their weapon differently but as far as we know all of the axe animations are the same, all of the swords are the same no matter what character you are using far to little released yet to see if they have actually found a new system

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