The constant hackneyed replies that what I am looking for is life are evidently false. If I was looking for life, I would not be desiring to play a game. And if what I am looking for is not life but a game, but the game which I can clearly envision and see is wrong, then it must mean that the thing which I am wanting is incorrect.
Therefore, the thing that I am wanting is something I do not have an idea about.
And thus the argument that I am looking for life is invalid, because I do have an idea of the game I am wanting.
I desire to play an MMORPG, a game in which I am roleplaying as if a citizen in a world. The concept of what this virtual world is has evolved in the past 10 years, but the actual worlds being made do not reflect this.
Has player housing been done before? Yes, I've seen it in Asheron's Call. Therefore, player housing is not impossible.
Is it possible to have a vast and seamless (or "seemingly seamless") world? I do not see why not. It is possible to fly from Winterspring to Ungoro without ever having to enter an instance.
Therefore, where is the unrealistic expectation?
Is it not the focus of the developers rather than what is possible which I am calling into question?
Your characterization of the argument that you actually want the things you've asked for in real life makes no sense. The 'argument' would go something like this: you want a game of this sort because you want certain things from it which you ought to be seeking outside of the game, and which you'd likely only ask for in the form of a game because you were trying to find a convenient substitute for the lack of them in your life otherwise.
Even beside that though - specifically, you're asking for 2 things: "society" and "agency". Your reasons for wanting these are unclear at best.
First off, no game developer can give you 'society' - they can only place in systems that make that *possible*. No amount of clever design is going to make people interact in the ways you seem to have in mind.
Secondly - "agency", or what people here like to call "impact on the world" - and I've said this in other threads - I don't see why people on this website place such a high premium on seeing direct visible effects from their actions. Do you derive meaning in your real life from physically acting on objects? If so, you will get a far more potent sensation of agency in real life than in a game, and also you should reflect on your outlook a bit more. Go play a game like Minecraft or EQLandmark where it's just a matter of 'physically' effecting virtual things (the fact that they are virtual isn't the main thing though, this applies to real life too) as much as you want and see how long that remains novel and feeling like you're doing anything of significance.
Yep virtual life is in no way a substitute for real life, that's why games are made as games and not a replacement, have some kids now that's a real adventure!
I'm probably alone but I'm pretty sure we're spoiled at this point where we can post "Demands". As a person who once dreamed that real-time 3D rendering and online multiplayer could actually be a thing and to see what's available now, it's amazing. Kids that grew up with all of this stuff have no clue how far gaming has come.
look at all these losers, I bet you are all really cool IRL. Whats wrong with wanting a more sandbox and open world, its just how the OP finds games fun, who are you to tell him to find his entertaintment elsewhere??? Go play your lovely themepark casual trash for the 1 hour u got free in your oh so busy life and stfu.
Op btw, there are games out like that but they are all indie so expect some bugs. You can try Darkfall, Mortal Online or if u like sci fi Eve
Originally posted by killion81 You demand, huh? As a player, you demand a development team caters to your "vision". Good luck with that.
Yeah, the demands plus about twenty million dollars might get that vision made. It would be kind of cr@ppy though. Forty million dollars might get a lot closer to it.
No it won't. Developers won't make it unless market research shows a large number of players want that and we all know that a million players aren't clamoring for such a game or they would have made it by now.
I think one of the main reasons people who want games like what the OP are asking for will never get them is because of how picky they are about them. All these indie games that have tried to do it with the budget size they have get mostly indifference or comments like the graphics suck etc from the intended fans.
The attitude of " I'm not going to play till an AAA developer gives me everything " only shows them just how risky a game like this really is. Get it right and you'll attract the small market of players looking for it. Get it wrong and they'll turn their nose up at it and f2p wont save you because there isn't a huge following of players like a themepark has waiting behind the "pay wall "
It's another example of how " I vote with my wallet by not spending money " doesn't actually work. It doesn't make them try harder to get your money. It makes them chase the people who are spending money.
Originally posted by killion81 You demand, huh? As a player, you demand a development team caters to your "vision". Good luck with that.
Yeah, the demands plus about twenty million dollars might get that vision made. It would be kind of cr@ppy though. Forty million dollars might get a lot closer to it.
No it won't. Developers won't make it unless market research shows a large number of players want that and we all know that a million players aren't clamoring for such a game or they would have made it by now.
I'm sure you could find a developer willing to write you a game for twenty million dollars in cash. Doubly so if you were willing to pay them forty million dollars in cash. One of the biggest bullet points on their resume is saying they not only received a game design, but completed the game, on time and within budget. That's a developer that is going to get work, regardless of how well the game does.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by killion81 You demand, huh? As a player, you demand a development team caters to your "vision". Good luck with that.
Yeah, the demands plus about twenty million dollars might get that vision made. It would be kind of cr@ppy though. Forty million dollars might get a lot closer to it.
No it won't. Developers won't make it unless market research shows a large number of players want that and we all know that a million players aren't clamoring for such a game or they would have made it by now.
I think one of the main reasons people who want games like what the OP are asking for will never get them is because of how picky they are about them. All these indie games that have tried to do it with the budget size they have get mostly indifference or comments like the graphics suck etc from the intended fans.
The attitude of " I'm not going to play till an AAA developer gives me everything " only shows them just how risky a game like this really is. Get it right and you'll attract the small market of players looking for it. Get it wrong and they'll turn their nose up at it and f2p wont save you because there isn't a huge following of players like a themepark has waiting behind the "pay wall "
It's another example of how " I vote with my wallet by not spending money " doesn't actually work. It doesn't make them try harder to get your money. It makes them chase the people who are spending money.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
And once we are finally given such a game I will see you all here whining about the griefing.. YOU want player freedom.. once it is given YOU will start whining about it being to much freedom and DEMAND the devs to restrict players in such ways we eventually end up with any other mmorpg.
Originally posted by killion81 You demand, huh? As a player, you demand a development team caters to your "vision". Good luck with that.
Yeah, the demands plus about twenty million dollars might get that vision made. It would be kind of cr@ppy though. Forty million dollars might get a lot closer to it.
No it won't. Developers won't make it unless market research shows a large number of players want that and we all know that a million players aren't clamoring for such a game or they would have made it by now.
I'm sure you could find a developer willing to write you a game for twenty million dollars in cash. Doubly so if you were willing to pay them forty million dollars in cash. One of the biggest bullet points on their resume is saying they not only received a game design, but completed the game, on time and within budget. That's a developer that is going to get work, regardless of how well the game does.
Just don't go trying to get a government grant to pay for it. I'm pretty sure that opinion is off the table now
Originally posted by kartool Get some investors and make it yourself if you think it's so easy to make what you describe.
I'm trying to help the companies, whose failure-games are an insult to the time and effort put in by their developers. MMOs have been failing since the releases of Age of Conan and Warhammer. The failure of both of those games is closely synonymous with the disease of MMO stagnation that has come into effect ever since Warcraft.
Sigh, this comment tells me you are not an expert on the topic. Age of Conan is still up and has a very active community. I guess since it didnt reach 5 million players, you consider it a failure.
Truth is it had a bad launch but then rose up and became what MMORPG.com called "Most Improved MMO of the Year."
It is not a perfect game but it is not a failure.
"I don't give a sh*t what other people say. I play what I like and I'll pay to do it too!" - SerialMMOist
Originally posted by kartool Get some investors and make it yourself if you think it's so easy to make what you describe.
I'm trying to help the companies, whose failure-games are an insult to the time and effort put in by their developers. MMOs have been failing since the releases of Age of Conan and Warhammer. The failure of both of those games is closely synonymous with the disease of MMO stagnation that has come into effect ever since Warcraft. Literally, the solution to the WoW-clone concept--and I wouldn't hesitate to say that just about every substantial MMO made since that one is merely a redesigned copy of it--is to fulfill the demands of the players by providing a seamless virtual world.
I nowhere say that it is easy. At the same time, I do not doubt that the technology exists.
Why is the market so failing in this regard? Are we who want a virtual world so effectively silent as consumers that the market does not even detect us as potential sources of profit? Does the market not see a need and fill it as quickly and as efficiently as possible?
I'm not sure if you're ignorant or naive. If you sincerely believe that the concept that you're describing hasn't been tabled a hundred times over in a hundred different board rooms, then maybe it's a little of both. Often times it just comes down to money. It's rarely a lack of vision.
I would invite you to check out The Repopulation, though. It might satisfy some of your wants, for sure. The Independent route is likely the only way these unproven concepts will ever see the light of day, though, and those will need to rely heavily on crowd funding.
Originally posted by killion81 You demand, huh? As a player, you demand a development team caters to your "vision". Good luck with that.
Yeah, the demands plus about twenty million dollars might get that vision made. It would be kind of cr@ppy though. Forty million dollars might get a lot closer to it.
No it won't. Developers won't make it unless market research shows a large number of players want that and we all know that a million players aren't clamoring for such a game or they would have made it by now.
I'm sure you could find a developer willing to write you a game for twenty million dollars in cash. Doubly so if you were willing to pay them forty million dollars in cash. One of the biggest bullet points on their resume is saying they not only received a game design, but completed the game, on time and within budget. That's a developer that is going to get work, regardless of how well the game does.
Just don't go trying to get a government grant to pay for it. I'm pretty sure that opinion is off the table now
This is kind of going off topic, but state investment in local business is actually a very common thing. A lot of businesses will elect to move or start in a state because of the initial investment there. The long term return usually trumps the short term expense of basically giving money to a business. People get jobs, pay taxes, buy property and then live happily. From what I've read though, seventy-five million dollars is a HUGE investment in a single company, especially one that had not even starting work on any products. It was an insane way to do a pretty normal, rational thing.
I think for what the OP wants, being Kickstarted or funded by a lottery winner with no expectation of a return on the investment is about the only way to go. I bet developers would be banging down the door to get a hold of enough money to build an MMORPG for free.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
And how markets show that "large number of player want" when there are no large fund game exist ?
Developers known that millions players want "another WOW" game because WOW existed.
If WOW wasn't made then how developers known?
In the end it just fall for the paradox lol.
Do the mass ever think game like candy crush or flappy bird will success ?
Yet they do ... pretty mystery uh .... ?
The problem with your analogies is that the MMO market has created MMO games that meet most of the OPs "demands". Countless indie developers and the team behind EvE have created living, breathing "hardcore" worlds. Guess what happened? Most failed or only survived with a small niche following. Developers have taken notice of the market and are creating games that a large segment of the market apparently want...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
A game can have all the features we ask for and still not satisfy. Seems to me some folks have no sense of the effort that goes into making a video game. Plus they demand intangibles like "a sense of accomplishment" or the impossible "should be fresh and instresting everyday I play for the next 15 years I plan to play".
I have a two year old and much of her frustrations and temper tantrums are the result of clashes of her expectations and reality. We go to the zoo "sorry sweetie you can't climb over the fence to pet the lion". "Sorry sweetie you can't put the remote in the toilet, no honey you can't close the box with leg stuck in it".
I just can't shake the vibe I get when I read these sorts of threads. As you get wiser you learn to manage your expectations, become more familiar on how the world works and what is possible.
Originally posted by killion81 You demand, huh? As a player, you demand a development team caters to your "vision". Good luck with that.
Yeah, the demands plus about twenty million dollars might get that vision made. It would be kind of cr@ppy though. Forty million dollars might get a lot closer to it.
No it won't. Developers won't make it unless market research shows a large number of players want that and we all know that a million players aren't clamoring for such a game or they would have made it by now.
I'm sure you could find a developer willing to write you a game for twenty million dollars in cash. Doubly so if you were willing to pay them forty million dollars in cash. One of the biggest bullet points on their resume is saying they not only received a game design, but completed the game, on time and within budget. That's a developer that is going to get work, regardless of how well the game does.
But these games are not just about the development costs, but about the residual income month after month. The developers have to continue to eat after the game coding is done and if they make a game that nobody wants to play, that nobody will pay them for, then they're going to starve all the same.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar There is nothing wrong with wanting a particular type of game.There is a great deal wrong imo with demanding a particular type of game.
This is it. In a concise nutshell
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by killion81 You demand, huh? As a player, you demand a development team caters to your "vision". Good luck with that.
Yeah, the demands plus about twenty million dollars might get that vision made. It would be kind of cr@ppy though. Forty million dollars might get a lot closer to it.
No it won't. Developers won't make it unless market research shows a large number of players want that and we all know that a million players aren't clamoring for such a game or they would have made it by now.
I'm sure you could find a developer willing to write you a game for twenty million dollars in cash. Doubly so if you were willing to pay them forty million dollars in cash. One of the biggest bullet points on their resume is saying they not only received a game design, but completed the game, on time and within budget. That's a developer that is going to get work, regardless of how well the game does.
But these games are not just about the development costs, but about the residual income month after month. The developers have to continue to eat after the game coding is done and if they make a game that nobody wants to play, that nobody will pay them for, then they're going to starve all the same.
They will eat very well for the five years it takes to write an MMORPG. If the game shuts down it shuts down. The developer should be fine so long as it's because the game play mechanics are unpopular and not because the developer did a horrible job. They will get more work or they'll float a plan for a game that will appeal to a larger audience and get funding from a venture capitalist or something and spend another five years eating very well and writing another game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
DECLARATION: Over the past decade the ideological advancement of MMOs has naturally evolved to such a distance that the actual content delivered in released MMOs is not only substantially inferior to what we are expecting, but actually insulting in the capacity that we are made to condescend to them, constrain ourselves for a brief time into the limited little game world presented to us, and attempt to convince ourselves that this is what we want.
I DEMAND:
...
Inferior is subjective. I think they are better games now.
And you can demand all your want .. no one owes you a game you like. The market decide.
You are no different than demanding the world produces what you like ... it does not work that way.
That such a game offer the player the opportunity to substantially impact the environment and world, in such a way that if the game is to have multiple servers, the degree of difference between them will be wide and unpredictable, given that individual people making conscious decisions at specific moments in time brought major change to the game world around them
This gave me the shivers, what a living nightmare the game could become if this ever came into being.
Imagine a zerg guild being able to impact your world in such a way as to make it practically unplayable for you and others, unless you did it their way you would have to continually have to settle elsewhere.
There are reasons that developers have not created a game with such absolutely freedom, it's too easily and readily abused, and too police it would then go against what you where after in the first place, freedom to do as you will and impact the server as you see fit.
Comments
And how markets show that "large number of player want" when there are no large fund game exist ?
Developers known that millions players want "another WOW" game because WOW existed.
If WOW wasn't made then how developers known?
In the end it just fall for the paradox lol.
Do the mass ever think game like candy crush or flappy bird will success ?
Yet they do ... pretty mystery uh .... ?
Your characterization of the argument that you actually want the things you've asked for in real life makes no sense. The 'argument' would go something like this: you want a game of this sort because you want certain things from it which you ought to be seeking outside of the game, and which you'd likely only ask for in the form of a game because you were trying to find a convenient substitute for the lack of them in your life otherwise.
Even beside that though - specifically, you're asking for 2 things: "society" and "agency". Your reasons for wanting these are unclear at best.
First off, no game developer can give you 'society' - they can only place in systems that make that *possible*. No amount of clever design is going to make people interact in the ways you seem to have in mind.
Secondly - "agency", or what people here like to call "impact on the world" - and I've said this in other threads - I don't see why people on this website place such a high premium on seeing direct visible effects from their actions. Do you derive meaning in your real life from physically acting on objects? If so, you will get a far more potent sensation of agency in real life than in a game, and also you should reflect on your outlook a bit more. Go play a game like Minecraft or EQLandmark where it's just a matter of 'physically' effecting virtual things (the fact that they are virtual isn't the main thing though, this applies to real life too) as much as you want and see how long that remains novel and feeling like you're doing anything of significance.
Op btw, there are games out like that but they are all indie so expect some bugs. You can try Darkfall, Mortal Online or if u like sci fi Eve
I think one of the main reasons people who want games like what the OP are asking for will never get them is because of how picky they are about them. All these indie games that have tried to do it with the budget size they have get mostly indifference or comments like the graphics suck etc from the intended fans.
The attitude of " I'm not going to play till an AAA developer gives me everything " only shows them just how risky a game like this really is. Get it right and you'll attract the small market of players looking for it. Get it wrong and they'll turn their nose up at it and f2p wont save you because there isn't a huge following of players like a themepark has waiting behind the "pay wall "
It's another example of how " I vote with my wallet by not spending money " doesn't actually work. It doesn't make them try harder to get your money. It makes them chase the people who are spending money.
I'm sure you could find a developer willing to write you a game for twenty million dollars in cash. Doubly so if you were willing to pay them forty million dollars in cash. One of the biggest bullet points on their resume is saying they not only received a game design, but completed the game, on time and within budget. That's a developer that is going to get work, regardless of how well the game does.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
so0, you say the WHOLE mmo market will fail if YOU dont get what you want?
seems legit. kids those days....
"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid and i did it anyway!"
And once we are finally given such a game I will see you all here whining about the griefing.. YOU want player freedom.. once it is given YOU will start whining about it being to much freedom and DEMAND the devs to restrict players in such ways we eventually end up with any other mmorpg.
Just don't go trying to get a government grant to pay for it. I'm pretty sure that opinion is off the table now
Sigh, this comment tells me you are not an expert on the topic. Age of Conan is still up and has a very active community. I guess since it didnt reach 5 million players, you consider it a failure.
Truth is it had a bad launch but then rose up and became what MMORPG.com called "Most Improved MMO of the Year."
It is not a perfect game but it is not a failure.
"I don't give a sh*t what other people say. I play what I like and I'll pay to do it too!" - SerialMMOist
I'm not sure if you're ignorant or naive. If you sincerely believe that the concept that you're describing hasn't been tabled a hundred times over in a hundred different board rooms, then maybe it's a little of both. Often times it just comes down to money. It's rarely a lack of vision.
I would invite you to check out The Repopulation, though. It might satisfy some of your wants, for sure. The Independent route is likely the only way these unproven concepts will ever see the light of day, though, and those will need to rely heavily on crowd funding.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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This is kind of going off topic, but state investment in local business is actually a very common thing. A lot of businesses will elect to move or start in a state because of the initial investment there. The long term return usually trumps the short term expense of basically giving money to a business. People get jobs, pay taxes, buy property and then live happily. From what I've read though, seventy-five million dollars is a HUGE investment in a single company, especially one that had not even starting work on any products. It was an insane way to do a pretty normal, rational thing.
I think for what the OP wants, being Kickstarted or funded by a lottery winner with no expectation of a return on the investment is about the only way to go. I bet developers would be banging down the door to get a hold of enough money to build an MMORPG for free.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
There is a great deal wrong imo with demanding a particular type of game.
The problem with your analogies is that the MMO market has created MMO games that meet most of the OPs "demands". Countless indie developers and the team behind EvE have created living, breathing "hardcore" worlds. Guess what happened? Most failed or only survived with a small niche following. Developers have taken notice of the market and are creating games that a large segment of the market apparently want...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
Hey OP you coud just try Facebook , it might be just what your looking for !
But seriously , nice Post +1
And after all they have just bought Oculous Rift !
I have a two year old and much of her frustrations and temper tantrums are the result of clashes of her expectations and reality. We go to the zoo "sorry sweetie you can't climb over the fence to pet the lion". "Sorry sweetie you can't put the remote in the toilet, no honey you can't close the box with leg stuck in it".
I just can't shake the vibe I get when I read these sorts of threads. As you get wiser you learn to manage your expectations, become more familiar on how the world works and what is possible.
too bad very little of the gaming community wants that but then again that's real life so why make a game of it
so say we all
But these games are not just about the development costs, but about the residual income month after month. The developers have to continue to eat after the game coding is done and if they make a game that nobody wants to play, that nobody will pay them for, then they're going to starve all the same.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
They will eat very well for the five years it takes to write an MMORPG. If the game shuts down it shuts down. The developer should be fine so long as it's because the game play mechanics are unpopular and not because the developer did a horrible job. They will get more work or they'll float a plan for a game that will appeal to a larger audience and get funding from a venture capitalist or something and spend another five years eating very well and writing another game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Inferior is subjective. I think they are better games now.
And you can demand all your want .. no one owes you a game you like. The market decide.
You are no different than demanding the world produces what you like ... it does not work that way.
This gave me the shivers, what a living nightmare the game could become if this ever came into being.
Imagine a zerg guild being able to impact your world in such a way as to make it practically unplayable for you and others, unless you did it their way you would have to continually have to settle elsewhere.
There are reasons that developers have not created a game with such absolutely freedom, it's too easily and readily abused, and too police it would then go against what you where after in the first place, freedom to do as you will and impact the server as you see fit.
Ofc I'm assuming your not a masochist (or sadist)