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Why do mmo's go...

F2P so fast?  It's like a sub based mmo comes out and than  6-8 months later it becomes F2P usually with restrictions. 
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  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    It's hard to say, but it seems because you level so quickly and do most of it in a solo linear path that you don't grow very attached to your character at all.  It's the same in single player games.  I played Baldur's Gate and other old games before it many times.  On the flip side there weren't a lot of options at the time either.  The real problem seems to be as MMOs become more like single player games they are treated as single player games, but require a lot more money to maintain while offering very little that is unique or better.  Once upon a time they offered you the option to spend a great deal of time in a game and the ability to spend a lot of that time with other people.  That is no longer the case short of endgame raiding.  Even that goes by fairly quickly now.  People seem to play the game like a single player experience and jump ship to the next game that comes along.  If it's not an MMO they will jump ship to read a book, watch a movie, spend time with friends, or play single player games.  The time of people being dedicated to certain games seems over.  There is just to much available to do and games are now being designed to take up very little  time.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772

    competition.

    When your competition is free, you have to drop the price.

     

  • ViadricViadric Member Posts: 151
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    competition.

    When your competition is free, you have to drop the price.

     

    Where is ESO's competition? 

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,776
    Why do people post thread titles that...
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Why do people post thread titles that...

    Well in this case at least you have to read the post. Maybe there's a lesson in all of this? :P

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,498


    Originally posted by Viadric
    F2P so fast?  It's like a sub based mmo comes out and than  6-8 months later it becomes F2P usually with restrictions. 
    In my opinion, not many MMOs today warrant a subscription. Most players can get to max level before their free 30 days are up and the end game is not what they seek. Within 6-8 months, there may 1-3 updates with very little new content, usually just tweaks and patches to fix bugs in the game.

    So they go F2P to draw in more numbers.

    Subscriptions usually live or die based on the longevity of the playerbase. If that playerbase is done in a matter of a month or three, their subs go away.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • andre369andre369 Member UncommonPosts: 970
    The real question is why people support these F2P/B2P cash shop games.
  • DEAD.lineDEAD.line Member Posts: 424
    Originally posted by andre369
    The real question is why people support these F2P/B2P cash shop games.

    Because F2P/B2P means i don't have to keep paying money every month to play the game. Atleast that's my view.

  • GuyClinchGuyClinch Member CommonPosts: 485

    I don't think people really understand this - and I will explain why I think games go F2P or B2P. Its server costs that are driving this trend more then anything.

    Back in the days of EQ servers were expensive. So each player you had to pay for the server costs with their subscription. If you had lots of players pay little you would get eaten up by costs. Now these games use server farm and flex based on demand. With these more sophisticated systems your server costs are much lower.

    This means that instead of small groups of people who cover their own server costs you can have large groups of people that average  just more then the server cost. So now you can have massive amounts of people playing who might be contributing even just 5 dollars a month - or less and not go broke.

    So a lot of people paying only a little is now profitable. Your reach is broad but not deep. And this is important because games aren't designed to last forever now. Games like ESO are essentially single player games with better copy protection (because you would have to develop the back end to pirate them). Just like single player games - selling a lot of boxes (B2P) or being purely (F2P) can now be very profitable.

    People see F2P as some kind of disaster because the game sucks. But that's not always true - its about broadening your playing base in hopes of landing people who will spend some money.. While you don't think of them as games - things like Facebook and Twitter are "F2P" for essentially the same reasons. They wants LOTS of people using their software - and this makes up for the fact that most people don't buy anything or click many of the ads.

     

     

  • zekeofevzekeofev Member UncommonPosts: 240

    MMOs are not retaining sub numers like they used to.

     

    Some people would blame this on game density. Many other options in the market.

     

    Some people would blame this on modern MMO design. The games are not designed to have long term appeal.

     

    Regardless, the average lifespan of a modern game is lower for new released MMOs. To extend the lifespan the games go FTP to attract a new user base that they can monetize.

  • andre369andre369 Member UncommonPosts: 970
    Originally posted by DEAD.line
    Originally posted by andre369
    The real question is why people support these F2P/B2P cash shop games.

    Because F2P/B2P means i don't have to keep paying money every month to play the game. Atleast that's my view.

    And in return they get away with making a sub par game that the average player spends a few dollars on and then stops playing. 

    Quantity over quality seems to be today's standards. 

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Originally posted by andre369
    The real question is why people support these F2P/B2P cash shop games.

    Because whales can't help themselves?

    Because why should i turn down free fun? (Although i wouldn't call that support).

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,776
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Why do people post thread titles that...

    Well in this case at least you have to read the post. Maybe there's a lesson in all of this? :P

    Threads with titles like these are annoying.

    Make a point in the title then support the title with the OP. At least that's what we should expect.

    Maybe I wasn't in the mood to participate in yet another discussion on MMO business models today. And yet here I am posting in a thread I would have/should have skipped right on over. The flip side is that, what if I actually had something of value to contribute (Not very likely from me in a business model discussion, but still....) and I missed the whole thread since I didn't pick up on the title.

  • Fenrir767Fenrir767 Member Posts: 595
    Would have been nice to know what this was about before I clicked damn my curiosity!
  • DerrosDerros Member UncommonPosts: 1,215
    Originally posted by zekeofev

    MMOs are not retaining sub numers like they used to.

     

    Some people would blame this on game density. Many other options in the market.

     

    Some people would blame this on modern MMO design. The games are not designed to have long term appeal.

     

    Regardless, the average lifespan of a modern game is lower for new released MMOs. To extend the lifespan the games go FTP to attract a new user base that they can monetize.

    It's not an Either/Or question, its a combination of all those factors.

  • vesuviasvesuvias Member UncommonPosts: 151
    Originally posted by andre369
    Originally posted by DEAD.line
    Originally posted by andre369
    The real question is why people support these F2P/B2P cash shop games.

    Because F2P/B2P means i don't have to keep paying money every month to play the game. Atleast that's my view.

    And in return they get away with making a sub par game that the average player spends a few dollars on and then stops playing. 

    Quantity over quality seems to be today's standards. 

    I still think the veteran voices of MMO doom here are too entrenched in the old thinking to enjoy this new paradigm. There are of course awful games out there but those aren't getting beat up day after day on the forums. No one is even talking about those games. Throwing the big tent pole themeparks under this bus is disingenuous. I have seen multiple posters rail on about how they hated the game but somehow managed to play the game to max level "twice" dumping 100s hours into the game over the span of the first month. Seems like they liked the game well enough to me.

     

    I understand how cliche'  themeparks are here and how sandboxes are the second comming (right up until its they are declared "not a true sandbox"). But how about just enjoying a game for the fun it does provide instead declaring it the the worst game ever because the fun you wish it provided.

     

    Here is the crux. Competition has eliminated the sub model. Even those that are still using or launching with it know this even if they care not to admit it. The choice between launching without a sub versus with still leans in the favor of subs. Since even if they go F2P 3 months later that is still an extra 45$ on the purchase price of the product from those that bought it and stayed. Those that played and left after the first month wouldn't have stayed any longer if it was F2P. 

     

    The default for Games is play it for a couple of months (or less) then move. It has always been this way. The fact that a few early MMOs broke this mold was a statistical outlier. It was a product of it being a brand new genre and dam near a brand new medium, very little competition (for the first couple of years). The gloss of those times has worn off, these were never alternative worlds where we could spend the next 2-3 years of our lives investigating every rock. Now, there is always newer and better world coming out every six months. The funny thing is nearly everyone here follows this same pattern (perhaps complaining profusely about it the entire time). We all love games, and supposedly MMOs specifically. Just admit and accept you are moving on in 1-3 months to the next new shiny. In a healthy and highly competitive environment with lots of options you aren't meant to call any particular game home. The genre itself is your home.

     

     

     

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  • CaldrinCaldrin Member UncommonPosts: 4,505
    Originally posted by Viadric
    F2P so fast?  It's like a sub based mmo comes out and than  6-8 months later it becomes F2P usually with restrictions. 

    mainly because they have made a bad game/themepark clnoe that everyone has seen before so after the initial few months people realise and go back to wow..

     

    I mean at the end of the day why play a copy of wow when you can play the real thing..

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by greenreen

    I think it's a massive topic with lots of pieces.

    Here are my ramblings.

    Games used to have communities - people nerded out in a friendly area where being a nerd was ok. I'm telling you that people had manners, please, thank you, grammar nazis, all of it and no question was too dumb.

    Then WOW became mainstream. It hit the right chords for people. It was easy to run on any computer, it walked you through all the steps, and it was well polished so you didn't have to do a lot of UI reloading or be any sort of programmer to try logical things like.... if I logout surely I'll reset some variables... I'll try that for a fix for this problem. It wasn't super polished day 1 but over time it got better and better because they threw manpower at it and dug in. I don't remember ever having to report a bugged quest in WOW ever and I was around up until Burning Crusade but not from the start - a few years in there.

    Because wow became mainstream it brought in people who didn't want to grind, explore, or have a community. These are people not normally into roleplaying games. They snicker when they saw it done. I was on an RP/PVP server and even there in WOW people would get laughed at. They saw things like Barrens chat as normal. They didn't remember when every question you ask was answered 5 ways and people were willing to meet up with you and help instead of being a jock about it saying STFU noob. Now, WOW endgame is PVP and getting the highest tier gear. Since PVP was what you "did" once you got all your high level gear, it brought in more of the people from FPS games because they were quick on the keyboard and found their ways to dominate such a soft crowd as RPG players or nublet gamers. So, what you have is a core group that changed from having the story be the mainstay (or the imagining of the story) to the end-game being the whole of the game.

    Since you were nobody until you reached end-game that's what people strive for in the sub games now. They have learned that from WOW and all its clones since. They also learned that community is only useful when you GET something out of it, not just to goof around in a virtual world because like the rabbit - they are in a hurry to reach end game because that's where all the fun begins. Then the judging began - if you aren't wearing x gear or doing y DPS, you aren't going to be in our team.  Once they reach end game - if they aren't competitive or can't put in the time - or just suck at PVP, they will buy things to keep up appearances. They will also buy their way faster to the end-game with exp bonuses or horses etc. It's a mindset somehow that reaching end-game is beating the game.

    That's why games go free to play so quickly, they couldn't satisfy or bring in enough RPGers to satisfy their goals so they send out their feelers for the majority of players - the content locusts and casuals who have no personal investment in the game. It's just a game to them, one of many available. It's not just about competition to me, it's about competence from a team. You have to offer a grand world now with new things to explore than we've seen to make people desire to sub if they aren't interested in building a community. That takes lots of hours to do and the easiest path is just to introduce more tiers from a programming standpoint instead of testing new mechanics and finding out all the possible combinations to break it. Games are going free to play because there isn't incentive to build a new world for a company when building a world like another one already has code well defined and is a proven system.

    Today companies are still following WOW religiously, ESO released with a cash shop because WOW did it. WOW for all its warts really changed MMOs. Because so many people were there it was hard to get people to even try your game unless you had a free trial - a free trial just turned into a free long trial. Make no mistake though, many games have tried to go free to play to save them and it didn't. Even some now who claimed great success are learning that there is a finite amount people will spend so they ramp up that cash shop more and more as they introduce more populist players then wonder why no one makes videos of their games or fan sites or writes guides. They lose those core RPG folks that were nerdarific at proselytizing for them and now what you hear about them is how they are pay to win and how much is blocked and how the population is dwindling. No surprise because being a free game isn't anything to hold people tightly when they feel like they have to buy their way ahead and another free game is coming up which won't be in that phase until later. They churn like madmen but they know it and accept the fluctuating income for the hopes that with 150m of us gaming, all they've got to do is get us all to try the game once and offer up x dollars in the time it takes them to build a new game and start all over with the "look at me, I'm new and improved" schtick.

    That was rambly - I'm too lazy to chunk it better right now.

    TLDR because it works and people accept it

    I'm one of those principled assholes who leave sub games when they go free to play. I know the crowd inside will change. I know the game will be number based for upgrades if it wasn't already. It always bring vertical progression because linear progression even dumb people understand 5 is greater than 1. We aren't going into calculus with that summation. That's populist. Horizontal progression instead requires some thinking. What do I give up if I use this instead of that or use another thing instead of this one. That thinking is for community driven people. The vertical crowd is for purchasing - if 5 is for sale and 1 is attainable regularly, 5 always has appeal for them. Five can cover up any inadequacies they have and in PVP especially turn the tide in their direction beefing up what they see as their skill level. The horizontal crowd is for discovery and learning so it suits the sub model. The free model basically tells you - this is the best thing that you should want in the game and either you can buy it from me or I'll let you gamble for it like a casino with keys and boxes but let's not live under illusion, Vegas takes more in than it pays out, same thing in gambling gaming. That's another proven model.

     

     

     

     

    I don't even like it when there are cosmetic items.  I've been playing Borderlands 2 a bit.  It's a fun game, but it's annoying looking in the character customization and seeing new costumes for sale.  It's also annoying to see weapons, armor, and lots of added content for sale divided into pieces.  While it didn't break the game experience for me I still dislike it a lot.  If they want to sell optional items do it outside of the game at least.  Don't advertize in the game itself.

    I agree with most of the rest.

  • MamasGunMamasGun Member Posts: 152
    Originally posted by greenreen

    I think it's a massive topic with lots of pieces.

    Here are my ramblings.

    Games used to have communities - people nerded out in a friendly area where being a nerd was ok. I'm telling you that people had manners, please, thank you, grammar nazis, all of it and no question was too dumb.

    Then WOW became mainstream. It hit the right chords for people. It was easy to run on any computer, it walked you through all the steps, and it was well polished so you didn't have to do a lot of UI reloading or be any sort of programmer to try logical things like.... if I logout surely I'll reset some variables... I'll try that for a fix for this problem. It wasn't super polished day 1 but over time it got better and better because they threw manpower at it and dug in. I don't remember ever having to report a bugged quest in WOW ever and I was around up until Burning Crusade but not from the start - a few years in there.

    Because wow became mainstream it brought in people who didn't want to grind, explore, or have a community. These are people not normally into roleplaying games. They snicker when they saw it done. I was on an RP/PVP server and even there in WOW people would get laughed at. They saw things like Barrens chat as normal. They didn't remember when every question you ask was answered 5 ways and people were willing to meet up with you and help instead of being a jock about it saying STFU noob. Now, WOW endgame is PVP and getting the highest tier gear. Since PVP was what you "did" once you got all your high level gear, it brought in more of the people from FPS games because they were quick on the keyboard and found their ways to dominate such a soft crowd as RPG players or nublet gamers. So, what you have is a core group that changed from having the story be the mainstay (or the imagining of the story) to the end-game being the whole of the game.

    Since you were nobody until you reached end-game that's what people strive for in the sub games now. They have learned that from WOW and all its clones since. They also learned that community is only useful when you GET something out of it, not just to goof around in a virtual world because like the rabbit - they are in a hurry to reach end game because that's where all the fun begins. Then the judging began - if you aren't wearing x gear or doing y DPS, you aren't going to be in our team.  Once they reach end game - if they aren't competitive or can't put in the time - or just suck at PVP, they will buy things to keep up appearances. They will also buy their way faster to the end-game with exp bonuses or horses etc. It's a mindset somehow that reaching end-game is beating the game.

    That's why games go free to play so quickly, they couldn't satisfy or bring in enough RPGers to satisfy their goals so they send out their feelers for the majority of players - the content locusts and casuals who have no personal investment in the game. It's just a game to them, one of many available. It's not just about competition to me, it's about competence from a team. You have to offer a grand world now with new things to explore than we've seen to make people desire to sub if they aren't interested in building a community. That takes lots of hours to do and the easiest path is just to introduce more tiers from a programming standpoint instead of testing new mechanics and finding out all the possible combinations to break it. Games are going free to play because there isn't incentive to build a new world for a company when building a world like another one already has code well defined and is a proven system.

    Today companies are still following WOW religiously, ESO released with a cash shop because WOW did it. WOW for all its warts really changed MMOs. Because so many people were there it was hard to get people to even try your game unless you had a free trial - a free trial just turned into a free long trial. Make no mistake though, many games have tried to go free to play to save them and it didn't. Even some now who claimed great success are learning that there is a finite amount people will spend so they ramp up that cash shop more and more as they introduce more populist players then wonder why no one makes videos of their games or fan sites or writes guides. They lose those core RPG folks that were nerdarific at proselytizing for them and now what you hear about them is how they are pay to win and how much is blocked and how the population is dwindling. No surprise because being a free game isn't anything to hold people tightly when they feel like they have to buy their way ahead and another free game is coming up which won't be in that phase until later. They churn like madmen but they know it and accept the fluctuating income for the hopes that with 150m of us gaming, all they've got to do is get us all to try the game once and offer up x dollars in the time it takes them to build a new game and start all over with the "look at me, I'm new and improved" schtick.

    That was rambly - I'm too lazy to chunk it better right now.

    TLDR because it works and people accept it

    I'm one of those principled assholes who leave sub games when they go free to play. I know the crowd inside will change. I know the game will be number based for upgrades if it wasn't already. It always bring vertical progression because linear progression even dumb people understand 5 is greater than 1. We aren't going into calculus with that summation. That's populist. Horizontal progression instead requires some thinking. What do I give up if I use this instead of that or use another thing instead of this one. That thinking is for community driven people. The vertical crowd is for purchasing - if 5 is for sale and 1 is attainable regularly, 5 always has appeal for them. Five can cover up any inadequacies they have and in PVP especially turn the tide in their direction beefing up what they see as their skill level. The horizontal crowd is for discovery and learning so it suits the sub model. The free model basically tells you - this is the best thing that you should want in the game and either you can buy it from me or I'll let you gamble for it like a casino with keys and boxes but let's not live under illusion, Vegas takes more in than it pays out, same thing in gambling gaming. That's another proven model. They set the scene then program in the cost barriers, for that I find the practice deplorable in its entirety. I don't overlook cosmetics either - every 3d game is cosmetic or you would be playing 2d because it can certainly offer as much in mechanics and load better. Saying "it's only cosmetic" for sale is saying, it's only the game itself for sale. That's why the sub model is still king. Why pay for bits and bobs when you can pay once and access it all.

     

     

     

     

    Boom: mind forked.  This is probably one of the most insightful things i have ever read in here.  I wonder how many people will actually agree with you...

    I mean, because what you said is it- hit directly on the head.

    Loves: SMITE, WildStar, Project Zomboid, PSO2, DCUO,

    Worst Online Communities: WoW/WoD(the OG MMO Trolls), DayZ/WarZ, SMITE/LoL/DOTA, EVE Online, APB
    image
    "I’m ready for
    All the comparisons
    I think it’s dumb and it’s embarrassing
    I’m switching off
    No longer listening
    I’ve had enough of persecution and conditioning
    Maybe it’s instinct- We’re only animal"
    - Lily Allen, Sheezus

  • nbtscannbtscan Member UncommonPosts: 862

    Investors want a return on a game within a specific amount of time.  If a game fails to meet expectations for subscriptions then investors pressure the developers/publishers to find a way to make money quickly to pay them back.  Thus the conversion of F2P/B2P.

     

    There's only a few studios with subscription games that aren't subject to this outside pressure and that's why they've managed to maintain subscription games for over a decade.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Originally posted by Caldrin
    Originally posted by Viadric
    F2P so fast?  It's like a sub based mmo comes out and than  6-8 months later it becomes F2P usually with restrictions. 

    mainly because they have made a bad game/themepark clnoe that everyone has seen before so after the initial few months people realise and go back to wow..

     

    I mean at the end of the day why play a copy of wow when you can play the real thing..

    Obvious not true for LoL, which is more popular than WoW, and also WoT, which has no PvE.

  • Four0SixFour0Six Member UncommonPosts: 1,175
    Originally posted by andre369
    The real question is why people support these F2P/B2P cash shop games.

     

    Mainly because they fall victim to the weasel words of "free to play", and fail to understand economics.

     

    I always am amazed at how many keep thinking this is a great idea, when publishers make MORE money with a F2P model. Blows my mind.

  • MamasGunMamasGun Member Posts: 152
    Originally posted by Caldrin
    Originally posted by Viadric
    F2P so fast?  It's like a sub based mmo comes out and than  6-8 months later it becomes F2P usually with restrictions. 

    I mean at the end of the day why play a copy of wow when you can play the real thing..

    Some of us have played the "real thing", and some of us think it's quite boring.  I know I, personally, would rather see the back of my eyelids than WoW's starter area one more time.

    I don't mean to seem rude, I just don't think "why play a copy of WoW when you can play the real thing" is a good defense.  Especially when a lot of people think the "real thing" is not, indeed, the real thing.

    Loves: SMITE, WildStar, Project Zomboid, PSO2, DCUO,

    Worst Online Communities: WoW/WoD(the OG MMO Trolls), DayZ/WarZ, SMITE/LoL/DOTA, EVE Online, APB
    image
    "I’m ready for
    All the comparisons
    I think it’s dumb and it’s embarrassing
    I’m switching off
    No longer listening
    I’ve had enough of persecution and conditioning
    Maybe it’s instinct- We’re only animal"
    - Lily Allen, Sheezus

  • nottunednottuned Member Posts: 92

    I notice a majority of people on here "Waiting for it to go F2P". As in they think the game is going to fail, and go F2P. If a failed mmo is F2P and a majority of people want to play failed games.

    There is your answer, people want and expect very little to waste their sad little lives.

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