I miss classes, having a specific role in a group. That's the problem with mmo's today, everyone wants to be able to do a little bit of everything so they can roll solo through the game. I miss the days of being social with the community and needing a group to do content.
Originally posted by Makidian I miss classes, having a specific role in a group. That's the problem with mmo's today, everyone wants to be able to do a little bit of everything so they can roll solo through the game. I miss the days of being social with the community and needing a group to do content.
Not a problem if you are one of those people who want to roll solo.
Class roles are not fun to me .. you have to find the right players to group with, and if they don't perform, you don't have fun.
Classes are good though .. the objective is not for group co-operation, but that classes should play differently so there is more variety of fun.
It seems like these days all the classes just kind of blend into one, they all sort of do the same thing but with little twists on things. I just find it so boring now because fights never have any strategy to them, you're all playing the same role now. I was always a dedicated healer and in modern MMOs my role is either gone or very limited to the point is is boring. I don't like the simplification of the hotkey bars, you'll only have like 8 skills in modern MMOs, there is nothing to manage there. I miss the days when I'd have like 8 bars full of skills, some might even have several of the same skill but just different levels. So much strategy went into being a healer and making sure I'm doing the right thing at the right time. Now I just find things to be so simple that they're dull...
I WoW did classes right, they were all so unique and fun to play and they had talent trees which could give you wildly different roles. It mean I could completely change my play session depending on what class I picked. Sadly though these days with GW2 or The Elder Scrolls Online for example, the classes all just feel the same, if I switched between them, it is barely any different. It is like they've switched all classes to do everything but be the master of none. What I found with WoW is because they were all so unique and dedicated in certain play styles, it made the most diverse class in the game (the Druid) feel so unique too. I guess these modern MMOs are like if all the classes were druids but some are better at a cat, some are better at the bear etc, the skills are just tweaked a bit.
I just think the Holy Trinity is needed and I want my skills back! I want to have to think in an MMO again, I don't want to just be spamming the same few healing spells I have because there is barely any variety there.
I really don't get with The Elder Scrolls Online is why they didn't just do it like Skyrim, where you have that skill wheel thing and you chose the skills you wanted like a proper Sandbox game. At least that way we would have been able to create proper roles for ourselves that we actually want to play, instead of being needlessly restricted to the boring classes it does have. I don't get why they even exist, that is Elder Scrolls like..
You are contradicting yourself. You can't have free skill choice AND very defined class roles. Not to mention in ESO if there aren't any defined roles it is because no one wants to play one. The game gives you all the tools necessary to make a very defined role for your character. If every character you make feels the same it is because you are making them all the same way. each skill is unique and when morphing gives you choices. For example.. when a nightblade skill morphs it gives you the choice of more dmg output or a healing ability. Those are two different roles. you just have to pick. I guarantee you that not everyone will pick dmg and not everyone will pick healing.
Skill choice is yours and yours alone. If you decide to make all ur character's dps.. you can't blame the devs.. If you decide to make all ur characters healers.. you still can't blame the devs. If you believe that the healing skills aren't very effective or efficient that is very understandable, but to say there aren't any class roles in a game that lets you pick your role is just fallacy.
agree with you...
Roles dont have nothing to do with classes... Roles will be created by players if the content demands it... If the content demands a Tank, a healer and a crowd controller.... then people will eventually create those roles.. If the content does not demand it, people will not...
ESO allows every character to perform one or more roles depending on skills, passive abilities and gearchoices... and still be good at the solo game.
But if content becomes more challenging, we will see full healing builds, that are reasonable at soloing at best..
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Originally posted by Dibdabs I'm glad "the Trinity" is being phased out. It was always unimaginative and caused too much stratification in games. I got sick to death of seeing players only recruiting a Tank or Healer, or DPS - it lacked all creativity.
I dont understand. How was the trinity system Unimaginative? if anything is "unimaginative" its this new class system where you can be anything!. like seriously. You needed to think, an do your job right in the trinity now everyone is a Damage dealer an all you have to worry about is your self an ur wooping 8 skills...
Seriously. if anything MMOs have de-evolved as combat goes...
I think the holy trinity is better for interesting group play, but isn't great for solo play (what most people seem to do during leveling). It also seems most people don't want to wait around trying to form a group. Thus we end up with everyone being a DPS of a different flavor. Some have some weak healing, some have some weak CC, and some have some weak tanking ability. Personally I like to play a jack of all trades in solo, but so far nothing post EQ has appealed to me in terms of solo classes. I had a lot of fun playing Druids and Necromancers once I learned to kite. It allowed me to test my skills a bit. The problem is that kiting is overpowered because melee have to take damage to kill mobs. Perhaps it takes a flawed balance system for a game to be fun. One class ends up being for solo and another for group. Even WoW had it's balance problems in Vanilla, but it was more interesting that way. The holy trinity can be fairly hard to work with for most people. They like to brag that it's easy and boring, but I've been in a lot of groups over the years and many wiped a fair amount due to a mistake of agro, over DPS, not healing at the right time, or not CCing at the right time. I don't believe that is the case in games these days. At least it's not the case pre endgame. During endgame raiding or PvP it may be different, but not everyone wants to do that.
Originally posted by Flyte27 I think the holy trinity is better for interesting group play, but isn't great for solo play (what most people seem to do during leveling). It also seems most people don't want to wait around trying to form a group. Thus we end up with everyone being a DPS of a different flavor. Some have some weak healing, some have some weak CC, and some have some weak tanking ability. Personally I like to play a jack of all trades in solo, but so far nothing post EQ has appealed to me in terms of solo classes. I had a lot of fun playing Druids and Necromancers once I learned to kite. It allowed me to test my skills a bit. The problem is that kiting is overpowered because melee have to take damage to kill mobs. Perhaps it takes a flawed balance system for a game to be fun. One class ends up being for solo and another for group. Even WoW had it's balance problems in Vanilla, but it was more interesting that way. The holy trinity can be fairly hard to work with for most people. They like to brag that it's easy and boring, but I've been in a lot of groups over the years and many wiped a fair amount due to a mistake of agro, over DPS, not healing at the right time, or not CCing at the right time. I don't believe that is the case in games these days. At least it's not the case pre endgame. During endgame raiding or PvP it may be different, but not everyone wants to do that.
You can still kite in games like Diablo 3. If you play solo, there is little difference between that and a MMO (except it has way better combat for me, of course).
Originally posted by Flyte27 I think the holy trinity is better for interesting group play, but isn't great for solo play (what most people seem to do during leveling). It also seems most people don't want to wait around trying to form a group. Thus we end up with everyone being a DPS of a different flavor. Some have some weak healing, some have some weak CC, and some have some weak tanking ability. Personally I like to play a jack of all trades in solo, but so far nothing post EQ has appealed to me in terms of solo classes. I had a lot of fun playing Druids and Necromancers once I learned to kite. It allowed me to test my skills a bit. The problem is that kiting is overpowered because melee have to take damage to kill mobs. Perhaps it takes a flawed balance system for a game to be fun. One class ends up being for solo and another for group. Even WoW had it's balance problems in Vanilla, but it was more interesting that way. The holy trinity can be fairly hard to work with for most people. They like to brag that it's easy and boring, but I've been in a lot of groups over the years and many wiped a fair amount due to a mistake of agro, over DPS, not healing at the right time, or not CCing at the right time. I don't believe that is the case in games these days. At least it's not the case pre endgame. During endgame raiding or PvP it may be different, but not everyone wants to do that.
You can still kite in games like Diablo 3. If you play solo, there is little difference between that and a MMO (except it has way better combat for me, of course).
D3 is not an MMO so I guess kiting is allowed in it. D1 and D2 also had kiting of a sort. I still enjoyed EQs kiting better and also the ability to break apart groups of mobs will various spells. I find that the locked overhead camera and point and click system gets a bit tedious for me quickly. It's not that it isn't challenging. I just enjoy playing from first or third person with an unlocked camera. The locked overhead view actually works very well for RPGs games like Baldur's Gate. That game used the same type of classes and EQ and the holy trinity combat style. I'm surprised no RPGs are made with that camera view. Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Skyrim, and many others use the FPS style system.
D3 is not an MMO so I guess kiting is allowed in it. D1 and D2 also had kiting of a sort. I still enjoyed EQs kiting better and also the ability to break apart groups of mobs will various spells. I find that the locked overhead camera and point and click system gets a bit tedious for me quickly. It's not that it isn't challenging. I just enjoy playing from first or third person with an unlocked camera. The locked overhead view actually works very well for RPGs games like Baldur's Gate. That game used the same type of classes and EQ and the holy trinity combat style. I'm surprised no RPGs are made with that camera view. Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Skyrim, and many others use the FPS style system.
I guess people have different preferences. I like the 3/4 top-down view much better for action combat, because of situation awareness. I can see how the mobs are moving better, and can use the terrain to my advantage.
I suppose that is also why D3 can support so many mobs. It would be hard to figure out who is where with a FPS view.
I miss classes that felt unique and gave a unique benefit to the individual and a group. 10 MMOs later they all feel samey. Its good they are trying new ideas where everyone is the damage dealing but at a detrimental cost of no co-dependance (or co-benefit).
It doesn't have to be done by the D/T/H trinity either even though that is how combat normally boils down to. When can we move on to a working, inter connected Combatant/Diplomat/Creator paradigm?
. When can we move on to a working, inter connected Combatant/Diplomat/Creator paradigm?
When devs are convinced there is a huge audience for it?
May be that will never happen because players don't like inter connectivity as much as you think. Personally I don't want to depend on others for my fun.
Tired of this everyone gets everything crap, it is one of the things that made the MMO genre lose its soul. It was special to be the only class that could rez or grant super speed (pre-mounts) or provide a quick travel gate (used to be no fast travel) or give buffs to really make a big difference in your fights. These things were all cherished and you would even pay people for these services. Your character felt special and needed, and you needed others as well. Today's MMO's are complete bullshit.
. When can we move on to a working, inter connected Combatant/Diplomat/Creator paradigm?
When devs are convinced there is a huge audience for it?
May be that will never happen because players don't like inter connectivity as much as you think. Personally I don't want to depend on others for my fun.
Theoretically you are already dependent on others for having fun. If you weren't you wouldn't be playing video games for entertainment. You would be making up your own games or entertaining yourself. Theoretically you should have more faith in a another person playing the game then a developer to provide you with fun entertainment. The developer only cares about your money. The person playing the game is also looking for entertainment and fun. Most games in life were originally developed as a means for people to entertain themselves. It seems too many people today are to sensitive and worried about their fun being ruined by other people in a game that is in general meaningless outside of it. People should be able to easily shrug off potential bad things that might happen or be said by other people in a game. I thought everything today in the world was about tolerance of others and yet people seem far less tolerant now then they ever where in the past.
. When can we move on to a working, inter connected Combatant/Diplomat/Creator paradigm?
When devs are convinced there is a huge audience for it?
May be that will never happen because players don't like inter connectivity as much as you think. Personally I don't want to depend on others for my fun.
Theoretically you are already dependent on others for having fun. If you weren't you wouldn't be playing video games for entertainment.
Sure .. you can nitpick about how I say it .. but you know what i mean. I do not depend on other players to have fun.
Are you going to say i depend on others to provide me with electricity too? You really like raising hair-splitting irrelevance?
. When can we move on to a working, inter connected Combatant/Diplomat/Creator paradigm?
When devs are convinced there is a huge audience for it?
May be that will never happen because players don't like inter connectivity as much as you think. Personally I don't want to depend on others for my fun.
Theoretically you are already dependent on others for having fun. If you weren't you wouldn't be playing video games for entertainment.
Sure .. you can nitpick about how I say it .. but you know what i mean. I do not depend on other players to have fun.
Are you going to say i depend on others to provide me with electricity too? You really like raising hair-splitting irrelevance?
Actually yes it is true. You are depending on people to make entertainment for you (provide you with fun). If they didn't make the entertainment you would have to make your own fun. The point is not irrelevant at all.
. When can we move on to a working, inter connected Combatant/Diplomat/Creator paradigm?
When devs are convinced there is a huge audience for it?
May be that will never happen because players don't like inter connectivity as much as you think. Personally I don't want to depend on others for my fun.
Theoretically you are already dependent on others for having fun. If you weren't you wouldn't be playing video games for entertainment.
Sure .. you can nitpick about how I say it .. but you know what i mean. I do not depend on other players to have fun.
Are you going to say i depend on others to provide me with electricity too? You really like raising hair-splitting irrelevance?
Actually yes it is true. You are depending on people to make entertainment for you (provide you with fun). If they didn't make the entertainment you would have to make your own fun. The point is not irrelevant at all.
You can keep splitting hair.
I don't have to depend on other PLAYERS to have fun, do I?
. When can we move on to a working, inter connected Combatant/Diplomat/Creator paradigm?
When devs are convinced there is a huge audience for it?
May be that will never happen because players don't like inter connectivity as much as you think. Personally I don't want to depend on others for my fun.
Theoretically you are already dependent on others for having fun. If you weren't you wouldn't be playing video games for entertainment.
Sure .. you can nitpick about how I say it .. but you know what i mean. I do not depend on other players to have fun.
Are you going to say i depend on others to provide me with electricity too? You really like raising hair-splitting irrelevance?
Actually yes it is true. You are depending on people to make entertainment for you (provide you with fun). If they didn't make the entertainment you would have to make your own fun. The point is not irrelevant at all.
You can keep splitting hair.
I don't have to depend on other PLAYERS to have fun, do I?
Agree. If you find Diablo III fun - a lot of games are going to work for you. Some people like the feeling of people NEEDING them. This is fun for them. That's the upside of interconnected games. People NEED a good tank, a good DPS etc. It makes people feel good. The downside is the frustration of not finding these players when you NEED them - this is what LFR is meant to fix - but it doesn't really because you get random shitty versions.
Its a pick your poison thing. People on the forums want it both ways but its either you NEED people and you in turn feel WANTED. Or you don't need anyone in particular. Its GW2 vs. EQ essentially. GW2 is the ultimate modern way - and EQ is the ultimate old school way.
Most games are somewhere in between - say ESO for example..
I really like playing as a role and maybe investing time to improving that role so there is specialization but what I dislike about roles is the long time it takes to fill a group due to missing a role.
In EvE you can get the skills to fly a variety of ships so you can heal, short dps, long dps, or do a variety of support options. But time spent learning the skills and swapping a ship type lets you swap between them. In EvE I think you get the best of the dedicated class perks with a very small amount of the negatives of class specialization.
Modern MMOs are moving in a direction I do not care for at all. I really do hope they implode on themselves. The level of tactics in a non role defined group is so absurdly small that it makes the gameplay grindy rather than tactically interesting for me.
EQ1 is still untouched in group mechanics, and that is due to its superior class design.
Also, i despise the trend towards amoeba characters. You should have to make the best use of your abilities to fit the situation, not change your abilities to fit the situation. I know some like being able to do everything on one character (and FFXI has managed to do this well...the others not so much), but on the fly build swapping, particularly if more than 2 roles, does not appeal to me at all.
But its not like it has to be rigid, EQ certainly wasnt. Sure, you had the Warrior/Cleric/Chanter trilogy but that could be Pally/Shaman/Monk or maybe SK/Bard/Druid or many other combinations.
Yup I do. I also miss more "forced" group content. Requiring actual communication not just playing with really smart AI, which is what we kind of do in the new generation of MMOs.
I don't mind customization and being able to experiment. I have not touched ESO so can't judge their system. But I do miss set classes. In most hybrid games it usually turns into a set meta anyway. GW1 nailed this on the head, set classes but so much diverse builds.
It seems like these days all the classes just kind of blend into one, they all sort of do the same thing but with little twists on things. I just find it so boring now because fights never have any strategy to them, you're all playing the same role now. I was always a dedicated healer and in modern MMOs my role is either gone or very limited to the point is is boring. I don't like the simplification of the hotkey bars, you'll only have like 8 skills in modern MMOs, there is nothing to manage there. I miss the days when I'd have like 8 bars full of skills, some might even have several of the same skill but just different levels. So much strategy went into being a healer and making sure I'm doing the right thing at the right time. Now I just find things to be so simple that they're dull...
I WoW did classes right, they were all so unique and fun to play and they had talent trees which could give you wildly different roles. It mean I could completely change my play session depending on what class I picked. Sadly though these days with GW2 or The Elder Scrolls Online for example, the classes all just feel the same, if I switched between them, it is barely any different. It is like they've switched all classes to do everything but be the master of none. What I found with WoW is because they were all so unique and dedicated in certain play styles, it made the most diverse class in the game (the Druid) feel so unique too. I guess these modern MMOs are like if all the classes were druids but some are better at a cat, some are better at the bear etc, the skills are just tweaked a bit.
I just think the Holy Trinity is needed and I want my skills back! I want to have to think in an MMO again, I don't want to just be spamming the same few healing spells I have because there is barely any variety there.
I really don't get with The Elder Scrolls Online is why they didn't just do it like Skyrim, where you have that skill wheel thing and you chose the skills you wanted like a proper Sandbox game. At least that way we would have been able to create proper roles for ourselves that we actually want to play, instead of being needlessly restricted to the boring classes it does have. I don't get why they even exist, that is Elder Scrolls like..
I don't understand this. In the case of Guild Wars 2, healing, cc, buffs, debuffs, tanking, taunting, AOE and many of the other mechanics still exist.
The difference is that they killed the repetitiveness of pressing the same hotkeys over and over. Many long encounters just doing 1 thing.
In my opinion, there is much more skill and room for growth, when nobody has so much health they can tank forever, but have to dodge out of the way and recover, while another jumps in and takes over. That's much more substantial teamwork. The reduced healing is probably 1/10 as effective as in a holy trinity MMO, but it adds up when all classes add their support, buffs, and heals. and then you have combo fields, if you know how to use them, make the difference.
The problem is that these nuances, are not visible to people who haven't soaked many many hours into it. So they just conclude it's the same role. But it's not. Not at all. Many classes can do many of the same things, but with different tools and in different ways, depending on weapons, traits, sigils and runes.
It's repeititve gameplay design to just spam the taunt button or keep taunt meter up. That's not what it means to me to be a very Warrior. That's looking at a hotbar being silly, instead of playing a fantasy game and doing interesting things on the screen. I hate the one dimensional stereotype, that now-you-do-this. your role should be defined by how you play and what you bring to the table. not "LF Healer". I never want to do that again. Brings down the barriers of playing with friends, and it's one of the reasons why all my friends never stuck with MMOs of old. Either they had the wrong class, the wrong faction or the wrong server or the wrong something.
I don't understand this. In the case of Guild Wars 2, healing, cc, buffs, debuffs, tanking, taunting, AOE and many of the other mechanics still exist.
The difference is that they killed the repetitiveness of pressing the same hotkeys over and over. Many long encounters just doing 1 thing.
In my opinion, there is much more skill and room for growth, when nobody has so much health they can tank forever, but have to dodge out of the way and recover, while another jumps in and takes over. That's much more substantial teamwork. The reduced healing is probably 1/10 as effective as in a holy trinity MMO, but it adds up when all classes add their support, buffs, and heals. and then you have combo fields, if you know how to use them, make the difference.
The problem is that these nuances, are not visible to people who haven't soaked many many hours into it. So they just conclude it's the same role. But it's not. Not at all. Many classes can do many of the same things, but with different tools and in different ways, depending on weapons, traits, sigils and runes.
It's repeititve gameplay design to just spam the taunt button or keep taunt meter up. That's not what it means to me to be a very Warrior. That's looking at a hotbar being silly, instead of playing a fantasy game and doing interesting things on the screen. I hate the one dimensional stereotype, that now-you-do-this. your role should be defined by how you play and what you bring to the table. not "LF Healer". I never want to do that again. Brings down the barriers of playing with friends, and it's one of the reasons why all my friends never stuck with MMOs of old. Either they had the wrong class, the wrong faction or the wrong server or the wrong something.
+1 non stationary combat and open skill systems have much more tact involved than what ppl say on these forums.
Agree. If you find Diablo III fun - a lot of games are going to work for you. Some people like the feeling of people NEEDING them. This is fun for them. That's the upside of interconnected games. People NEED a good tank, a good DPS etc. It makes people feel good. The downside is the frustration of not finding these players when you NEED them - this is what LFR is meant to fix - but it doesn't really because you get random shitty versions.
Its a pick your poison thing. People on the forums want it both ways but its either you NEED people and you in turn feel WANTED. Or you don't need anyone in particular. Its GW2 vs. EQ essentially. GW2 is the ultimate modern way - and EQ is the ultimate old school way.
Most games are somewhere in between - say ESO for example..
Yeh .. i pick "i don't need others". I feel wanted enough in real life since i have a wife + 2 kids + lots of colleagues who want to work with me. I don't need that in video games.
And yes, lots of games are fun to me .... trying to balance multiple hobbies, work + family is the issue. Tomb raider, for example, is a great (to me) linear game. I almost wish D3 is less fun so i don't have to waste so much time in it ... and so i can sample a few more shorter games.
The OP is absolutely correct in all statements. Once a developer spends the money to investigate thee rampant succession of MMO failures to retain paying customer they will learn the root cause is diverging from traditional trinity role playing.
Console game mechanics can not hold paying MMORPG customer. This is proven by the flood of gamers leaving games with these mechanics. Regardless of your wants, the industry is seeing other wise in numbers of paying customers who support non-trinity game mechanics.
Until someone starts paying for non-trinity, you can’t expect to see a future in it.
I'm not entirely convinced lack of trinity is the main cause, but that might be part of it. I think its because the levelling up process is so quick in MMOs these days and there's not much exciting to do end-game. Everybody's tired of the traditional gear grind; and why do it in anything besides the most popular and polished MMO that being WoW. I like the direction EQNext is taking with the Minecraft-style building, custom content is a smart way to keep things interesting.
Dedicated class roles still very much exists in that you still need someone to be a tank someone to heal and one or more DPS classes in just about every MMO on the market today. What has changed is the opportunity now exists for people to play more than one of those roles on any given toon.
I don't miss having to reroll if you find your character choice is no longer needed. EQ2 has 24 classes which at launch had significant differences (they have been very much muddled together over time). There were classes that just out and out didn't work for some activities and other classes that where overpowered. What's the point of having 6 tank classes when only 1 of them is viable on raids? In the early days of EQ2 you could pretty much prescribe every spot in a raid down to a class because there was exactly 1 way to fill it that optimized the raids DPS and survivability. There was a little more flexibility in 6 person group content but not much and if you didn't happen to roll a toon that was viable to bad re-roll.
No I don't really miss that level of specialization of class roles. I personally don't see anything wrong with letting everyone being able to play one of two group roles at any one time. You should have to give up most if not all of the other roles functionality to do it but really where is the harm in letting a toon be either a healer or a DPS just not both at once?
Comments
Not a problem if you are one of those people who want to roll solo.
Class roles are not fun to me .. you have to find the right players to group with, and if they don't perform, you don't have fun.
Classes are good though .. the objective is not for group co-operation, but that classes should play differently so there is more variety of fun.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
agree with you...
Roles dont have nothing to do with classes... Roles will be created by players if the content demands it... If the content demands a Tank, a healer and a crowd controller.... then people will eventually create those roles.. If the content does not demand it, people will not...
ESO allows every character to perform one or more roles depending on skills, passive abilities and gearchoices... and still be good at the solo game.
But if content becomes more challenging, we will see full healing builds, that are reasonable at soloing at best..
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I dont understand. How was the trinity system Unimaginative? if anything is "unimaginative" its this new class system where you can be anything!. like seriously. You needed to think, an do your job right in the trinity now everyone is a Damage dealer an all you have to worry about is your self an ur wooping 8 skills...
Seriously. if anything MMOs have de-evolved as combat goes...
You can still kite in games like Diablo 3. If you play solo, there is little difference between that and a MMO (except it has way better combat for me, of course).
D3 is not an MMO so I guess kiting is allowed in it. D1 and D2 also had kiting of a sort. I still enjoyed EQs kiting better and also the ability to break apart groups of mobs will various spells. I find that the locked overhead camera and point and click system gets a bit tedious for me quickly. It's not that it isn't challenging. I just enjoy playing from first or third person with an unlocked camera. The locked overhead view actually works very well for RPGs games like Baldur's Gate. That game used the same type of classes and EQ and the holy trinity combat style. I'm surprised no RPGs are made with that camera view. Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Skyrim, and many others use the FPS style system.
I guess people have different preferences. I like the 3/4 top-down view much better for action combat, because of situation awareness. I can see how the mobs are moving better, and can use the terrain to my advantage.
I suppose that is also why D3 can support so many mobs. It would be hard to figure out who is where with a FPS view.
I miss classes that felt unique and gave a unique benefit to the individual and a group. 10 MMOs later they all feel samey. Its good they are trying new ideas where everyone is the damage dealing but at a detrimental cost of no co-dependance (or co-benefit).
It doesn't have to be done by the D/T/H trinity either even though that is how combat normally boils down to. When can we move on to a working, inter connected Combatant/Diplomat/Creator paradigm?
When devs are convinced there is a huge audience for it?
May be that will never happen because players don't like inter connectivity as much as you think. Personally I don't want to depend on others for my fun.
Tired of this everyone gets everything crap, it is one of the things that made the MMO genre lose its soul. It was special to be the only class that could rez or grant super speed (pre-mounts) or provide a quick travel gate (used to be no fast travel) or give buffs to really make a big difference in your fights. These things were all cherished and you would even pay people for these services. Your character felt special and needed, and you needed others as well. Today's MMO's are complete bullshit.
Theoretically you are already dependent on others for having fun. If you weren't you wouldn't be playing video games for entertainment. You would be making up your own games or entertaining yourself. Theoretically you should have more faith in a another person playing the game then a developer to provide you with fun entertainment. The developer only cares about your money. The person playing the game is also looking for entertainment and fun. Most games in life were originally developed as a means for people to entertain themselves. It seems too many people today are to sensitive and worried about their fun being ruined by other people in a game that is in general meaningless outside of it. People should be able to easily shrug off potential bad things that might happen or be said by other people in a game. I thought everything today in the world was about tolerance of others and yet people seem far less tolerant now then they ever where in the past.
Actually yes it is true. You are depending on people to make entertainment for you (provide you with fun). If they didn't make the entertainment you would have to make your own fun. The point is not irrelevant at all.
You can keep splitting hair.
I don't have to depend on other PLAYERS to have fun, do I?
Agree. If you find Diablo III fun - a lot of games are going to work for you. Some people like the feeling of people NEEDING them. This is fun for them. That's the upside of interconnected games. People NEED a good tank, a good DPS etc. It makes people feel good. The downside is the frustration of not finding these players when you NEED them - this is what LFR is meant to fix - but it doesn't really because you get random shitty versions.
Its a pick your poison thing. People on the forums want it both ways but its either you NEED people and you in turn feel WANTED. Or you don't need anyone in particular. Its GW2 vs. EQ essentially. GW2 is the ultimate modern way - and EQ is the ultimate old school way.
Most games are somewhere in between - say ESO for example..
I really like playing as a role and maybe investing time to improving that role so there is specialization but what I dislike about roles is the long time it takes to fill a group due to missing a role.
In EvE you can get the skills to fly a variety of ships so you can heal, short dps, long dps, or do a variety of support options. But time spent learning the skills and swapping a ship type lets you swap between them. In EvE I think you get the best of the dedicated class perks with a very small amount of the negatives of class specialization.
Modern MMOs are moving in a direction I do not care for at all. I really do hope they implode on themselves. The level of tactics in a non role defined group is so absurdly small that it makes the gameplay grindy rather than tactically interesting for me.
EQ1 is still untouched in group mechanics, and that is due to its superior class design.
Also, i despise the trend towards amoeba characters. You should have to make the best use of your abilities to fit the situation, not change your abilities to fit the situation. I know some like being able to do everything on one character (and FFXI has managed to do this well...the others not so much), but on the fly build swapping, particularly if more than 2 roles, does not appeal to me at all.
But its not like it has to be rigid, EQ certainly wasnt. Sure, you had the Warrior/Cleric/Chanter trilogy but that could be Pally/Shaman/Monk or maybe SK/Bard/Druid or many other combinations.
Yup I do. I also miss more "forced" group content. Requiring actual communication not just playing with really smart AI, which is what we kind of do in the new generation of MMOs.
I don't mind customization and being able to experiment. I have not touched ESO so can't judge their system. But I do miss set classes. In most hybrid games it usually turns into a set meta anyway. GW1 nailed this on the head, set classes but so much diverse builds.
I don't understand this. In the case of Guild Wars 2, healing, cc, buffs, debuffs, tanking, taunting, AOE and many of the other mechanics still exist.
The difference is that they killed the repetitiveness of pressing the same hotkeys over and over. Many long encounters just doing 1 thing.
In my opinion, there is much more skill and room for growth, when nobody has so much health they can tank forever, but have to dodge out of the way and recover, while another jumps in and takes over. That's much more substantial teamwork. The reduced healing is probably 1/10 as effective as in a holy trinity MMO, but it adds up when all classes add their support, buffs, and heals. and then you have combo fields, if you know how to use them, make the difference.
The problem is that these nuances, are not visible to people who haven't soaked many many hours into it. So they just conclude it's the same role. But it's not. Not at all. Many classes can do many of the same things, but with different tools and in different ways, depending on weapons, traits, sigils and runes.
It's repeititve gameplay design to just spam the taunt button or keep taunt meter up. That's not what it means to me to be a very Warrior. That's looking at a hotbar being silly, instead of playing a fantasy game and doing interesting things on the screen. I hate the one dimensional stereotype, that now-you-do-this. your role should be defined by how you play and what you bring to the table. not "LF Healer". I never want to do that again. Brings down the barriers of playing with friends, and it's one of the reasons why all my friends never stuck with MMOs of old. Either they had the wrong class, the wrong faction or the wrong server or the wrong something.
+1 non stationary combat and open skill systems have much more tact involved than what ppl say on these forums.
Yeh .. i pick "i don't need others". I feel wanted enough in real life since i have a wife + 2 kids + lots of colleagues who want to work with me. I don't need that in video games.
And yes, lots of games are fun to me .... trying to balance multiple hobbies, work + family is the issue. Tomb raider, for example, is a great (to me) linear game. I almost wish D3 is less fun so i don't have to waste so much time in it ... and so i can sample a few more shorter games.
I'm not entirely convinced lack of trinity is the main cause, but that might be part of it. I think its because the levelling up process is so quick in MMOs these days and there's not much exciting to do end-game. Everybody's tired of the traditional gear grind; and why do it in anything besides the most popular and polished MMO that being WoW. I like the direction EQNext is taking with the Minecraft-style building, custom content is a smart way to keep things interesting.
Dedicated class roles still very much exists in that you still need someone to be a tank someone to heal and one or more DPS classes in just about every MMO on the market today. What has changed is the opportunity now exists for people to play more than one of those roles on any given toon.
I don't miss having to reroll if you find your character choice is no longer needed. EQ2 has 24 classes which at launch had significant differences (they have been very much muddled together over time). There were classes that just out and out didn't work for some activities and other classes that where overpowered. What's the point of having 6 tank classes when only 1 of them is viable on raids? In the early days of EQ2 you could pretty much prescribe every spot in a raid down to a class because there was exactly 1 way to fill it that optimized the raids DPS and survivability. There was a little more flexibility in 6 person group content but not much and if you didn't happen to roll a toon that was viable to bad re-roll.
No I don't really miss that level of specialization of class roles. I personally don't see anything wrong with letting everyone being able to play one of two group roles at any one time. You should have to give up most if not all of the other roles functionality to do it but really where is the harm in letting a toon be either a healer or a DPS just not both at once?