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Is Dishonored, and other FPS/TPS with skills improvement RPGs?
nariusseldon
Member EpicPosts: 27,775
It seems that this site was talking about expanding to non-MMO RPG coverage. I figure i will kick it off by discussing RPGs.
Note the frequent debate here about what is a MMO .. i figure it will be fun to do the same for video game RPGs.
A skill-based progression element is in many shooters and action adventure including, but not limited to, Call to Juarez, Dishonored, Tomb Raider, Thief, ... and many even have improvable gear (like Tomb Raider, or Splinter Cells).
Now are these RPGs? Let's the debate begin!
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role playing games really only need a character for you to take control of and a story to play though to fit the most basic requirement of an rpg.
Like mmos though, if you try hard enough you can make any game "fit"
But none of those are missing in these "action" games.
Take tombraider .. you take control of Laura, and there is a pretty good story narrated with cutscenes and voice over. The basic requirement of a RPG is certianly fulfilled.
The question is whether progression + story makes a game RPG.
Textual dialogue ... obvious whether it is text or voice is just a different medium of communication with little bearing on the underlying content.
Story .. it is present in many modern FPS .. often in great details and characterization (like Elizabeth in Bioshock Infinite).
Exploring .. this one is certainly missing .. many games are not exploration driven. But at the same time, exploration is not essential to RPGs ... ARPGs like Diablo has little true exploration ... aside from going through the dungeon and kill everything (and you can argue there is similar exploration in games like Dishonored .. explore the level to find all the goodies).
Turn-based combat ... obviously this is not essential to a RPG.
There is still exploration in some games like Dark Souls, Skyrim, or any game that has an open world. There are actually a lot of sandbox like single player games now. There just aren't a lot of sandbox multiplayer games.
In terms of combat most people would have said turn based or real time turn based combat was essential to an RPG 10 years ago. I don't think many people think that now.
True .. but open world games is not dominant .. there are a few successes but it is not like all the games are open world.
I think a lot of games are open world now. The Witcher is a big RPG and it's moving to open world. Grand Theft Auto games are open world. Assassins' Creed games are open world. Fallout games are open world. Far Cry games are open world. There are probably some I'm forgetting about somewhere.
It depends on the prominence of the game's RP elements. First of all, role-playing isn't just getting a character and playing through the story. The term implies you get to influence the story somehow. That's why Deus Ex and Mass Effect are RPGs while the 2013 Tomb Raider isn't.
Then, there's the overall gameplay focus. Dishonored has a (barely, but it's still there) branching storyline and some character development, but it's a stealth action game. Its focus is on sneaking around or fighting, not on developing your character.
And lastly, the thing about character development. It's a part of any story, but in RPGs you get to influence it. Elizabeth and Booker develop a lot in Bioshock Infinite, but it's out of your control, so it's not a part of gameplay.
Basically, characters play roles in all stories, but the player gets to play with those roles in a role-playing game.
Not in any way.
still not all ... for every one .. i can name one that is not. You have name 5 here ... here are the non-open world ones ..
Dead Space, Diablo, Call of Duty, Dishonored, Bioshock, Max Payne .. oops . i named 6. Again, i did not say there are none .. or even few. I said they are "not dominant", and that "not like all the games are open world". I think i made my point.
That is why I made this thread .. it is no longer obvious what is a CRPG.
Now, i am like you .. i will pay these games because they are fun. Whether they are RPGs means little for that decision.
But given the obsession here for definition (just look at how many threads are there that try to define MMO, MMORPG, sandbox ....), i figure it would be fun discussions.
But you don't really control the story line in Deus Ex Human Evolution. There are some side quests, but the main quest is just one controlled story with a little of branching at the end (same as Dishonored). I would even argue that the character development element is not much more in Deus Ex HE than Dishonored. Essentially you get a list of ability you can level up, and that is it.
Or you can look at Witcher 2 .. .very much a CRPG by any categorization (note that i am not using the word "definition", but "categorization" instead). Much of the story line is canned, and you just follow it.
So impacting the story is really not a huge deal in man CRPG. Moreover, do we also split the definition for CRPG, and ARPG? Diablo is a ARPG, you don't affect the story at all .. you just follow a linear story, and kill everything in between. However, there is a huge emphasize of items, and developing combat power.
I don't see what is gained by all that. Why straight-jacket games? The games that interest me are most often the ones that defy categorization. What was Mirror's Edge? A platformer? A FPS - well it was 'FP' for sure, but not really 'S'. What kind of game will No Man's Sky be? Hopefully a great one.
I read a lot of posts complaining about the lack of innovation in so called MMOs and the prevalence of clones. You get clones when you design a game that adheres to a strict definition of what a game of a specific genre must be. When millions of WoW players define a MMORPG as a game that looks and plays like WoW, then that becomes the accepted meaning. Personally, I think we're much better off without those definitions. I want new game experiences, not old ones with a fresh lick of paint.
No.An RPG is either a pen and paper RPG or a computer game based on a pen and paper RPG system. Just having progression doesn't make something an RPG in my eyes.
I would agree, but I haven't seen many turn based or real time turn based games come out in a long time. The only one is Shadowrun Returns and thats and indie game? There may be other indie games and I just haven't tried them.
They seem to be becoming more and more popular. Lots of companies are doing it now because they feel it is possible to do. They felt in the past that making a game that is open ended and uses 3D graphics was not possible. Grand Theft Auto 5 seems to be the most popular console game of recent times. Another I forgot was LA Noire. Probably my favorite Linear games of recent times is Uncharted 2. I like it more for the story then for the actual game play.
Good questions. I am all for NOT straight-jacketing games, particularly with the MMO label.
But don't ask me why .... but it seems that defining genre is a popular past time here.
Interesting question.
To explain myself. Example: When I step into the world of TwoWorld 2, Fall Out 3, Skyrim as the most current I consider I stepped into a RPG game where I can mold my character. As some say exploration isn't a part of RPG personaly to me it's what makes a RPG. With explorations comes discovery, discovery's lead to found or new mystery's. Overall a RPG has a certain grade of freedom with your nameless character that might become known in that gameworld.
I also enjoy Action RPG's like Mass Effect, Star Wars the Old Republic, The Witcher, Dragon Age, Bioshock series. But here you already a somebody and you take jst the role of that person with minimal choices.
Seems The Witcher is going to be allot more open then ever before but still will lack the character freedom to be who you want. But definitly looking forward to the new Witcher game.
Can't really consider games like Lara Croft, Batman, Max Payne and sorts to be RPG. They are atleast to me just action games. Sure there is some character developement. We alway's had that in those games it's just more fleshed out due to technology being able to produce that.
I might just have certain expectations when it comes to game genre's. I still have fun with games that might not match my excact criteria of game genre.
The one and only determiner of a RPG is, in my opinion, Choice.
Any game where you are on rails, moving from zone to zone, without the choice to go back is not an RPG.
As Example, the Uncharted-Series. Its a great game, but you move from zone to zone and you can't go back. You can replay the zone to be better at it or to find stuff. but basicly you only reset the zone and start the Story all over. On the other side you have games like Dark Souls. You can anytime go back to a zone you already visited but its not a replay, because you already altered the Story of the Zone.
other examples
Dishonored, DMC, The Last of Us. all this games are not RPGs in my opinion
Borderlands, Dark Souls, Fable, Final Fantasy are RPGs in my opinion
It takes much more than skill improvements to move a game's category from "FPS" to "RPG." Most games have aspects from other types of games, but it really comes down to the game's core design. WarCraft 3 is an RTS and not and RPG even though heroes can level up. Skyrim is still an RPG and not an FPS even though you can shoot people in first person.
For my part as Editor, we're trying to stick to games that actually consider themselves RPGs, officially. So even though something like Infamous: Second Son has a lot of RPG elements, we won't list it because it's not being considered an RPG. Same with the recent Batman Games, or even Zelda, which most won't consider an RPG even if Nintendo says it is.
We're trying to walk a finer line with RPGs than we have with MMOs.
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I think it's safe to say that simpler and less immersive are bad things. Sure some people may prefer them, but I'm of the opinion that not all preferences are created equal. Some people may prefer an easier to get into experience at the cost of a reduced amount of satisfaction and enjoyment, but it IS at that cost. It's kind of like saying Ferrari isn't a better car than a used honda because the Ferrari costs more.There is no debate here ... dont confuse role-playing..........with playing a role... They are very different .. None of the games listed are RPGs
Though that would mean the elder scrolls games aren't role play games.
It's a shame but you can't influence the story with the exception of a handful of quests strewn across the series and none of the main or guild quests.
The only thing you can do is step outside all of those stories and imagine your own motivations or even forgo those quests.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
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