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Updated: Gamestop screws me out of 5 day early access and Zenimax apparently can't do anything to he

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Comments

  • SomeOldBlokeSomeOldBloke Member UncommonPosts: 2,167
    You see a lawyer and sue both Gamestop and Zenemax. The mental anguish caused could get you millions in damages.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Razanka
    Here's what I did, do a digital pre-order from Amazon for which ever version you want they will send you an early access code right away. Once you have your early access code go and registar it with you ESO Account, then cancel your order with Amazon and go an order it from GMG w/ their 20% off coupon, saves ya some money and a lot of head aches.

    Just a heads up: straight from the Amazon Pre-order page...5-day early access codes will be deactivated if your order is cancelled.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,785

    Originally posted by aslan132

    All this doom and gloom about Gamestop. I do understand everyone has different experiences, but the people that get screwed are a very small minority. 

     That being said, OP should have known there was a problem immediately at time of purchase. You should not have had to "wait patiently" for an early access code of any type. They dont need to email those. The code should be printed directly on the receipt at time of purchase. If its not there, ask them to redo it. If they cant (well wont, because they can), then get refunded and walk away on the spot. 

     I have bought mine from Gamestop, immediately got the code on the receipt, went home and redeemed it. No issues. 

    For those that were asking how you can see what you have redeemed on the account page. On the main account page, it only indicated "Early Access", but if you look at billing history, it will show you the code you redeemed, and will say 3day access code, 5 day access code, standard, or imperial. Its silly you have to dig for it, but it is there if you know where to look. 

    Like I said, I've never had a problem with Gamestop before so I didn't really think anything was wrong.

     

    Originally posted by barackus28
    when you preordered did you just put a deposit or did you pay in full? I got mine a long time ago as well, and I paid full at the time. I received my code that day.

    Paid in full of course.

     

    Originally posted by mbd1968
    You see a lawyer and sue both Gamestop and Zenemax. The mental anguish caused could get you millions in damages.

    Augh Mongo, da war wound!

     

  • HokieHokie Member UncommonPosts: 1,063
    Originally posted by makasouleater69

    Here is the game stop guy selling the 5 day codes. So now we have to buy 5 day codes for 5 more dollars. Son of a bitch i tell you what, I am never buying anything from game stop.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Days-Early-Access-instead-of-3-Elder-Scrolls-Online-/321362089048?pt=UK_PC_Video_Games_Video_Games_JS&hash=item4ad2ac5458

    You should forward that on to Zenimax with an explanation of what GS has put you thru.

     

    "I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."

  • nokio1nokio1 Member UncommonPosts: 10
    u need to call gamestop support and ask them u need ur code for ce of eos becasue u lost ur i knw i got my last night they pull out of the system
  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by youvewasted2yrs
    Originally posted by mbd1968
    You see a lawyer and sue both Gamestop and Zenemax. The mental anguish caused could get you millions in damages.

    I took yours as sarcastic, but earlier someone posted about hiring a lawyer and they were serious.  What is wrong with people to think you should sue over missing out on two days of a video game.  

    It's probably not realistic, but it would be nice if a class action lawsuit were filed against Gamestop by all of the people they've ever screwed out of content they paid for.  There are probably enough people total that it could make a healthy dent in their bottom line, and if any retailer deserves to have bad things happen to it, it's Gamestop.  I really don't see why they should get a pass just because what they are selling is video games.  

    Their behavior is no different than opening up a box, removing some of the items inside, then sealing the box back up and selling it at the price intended for all of the box's contents.  Really shouldn't matter what's in the box, it should only matter that they are effectively stealing from their customers.

    Highly doubtful that any substantial number of the people they've screwed kept good records though, so hard to actually prove their behavior in an actual court.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • DihoruDihoru Member Posts: 2,731
    Originally posted by Doushi
    Why in earth people still buy games from gamestop? isnt internet full of alternatives that are less likely to screw you?

    They offer steam wallet codes for purchase so I cannot really say I do not buy something from gamestop :D.

    image
  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by youvewasted2yrs

     

    Well I would say those that don't have proof and tell horror stories are just doing the "cool thing " and jumping on the bandwagon.  Now I'm not saying it doesn't happen but to the extent you make it sound most definitely not .  I've been using gamestop since my parents took me there 20 yrs or so ago.  Not once have they messed up mine or anyone I knows orders.  If they were as bad as you try to make them they wouldn't have lines wrapped around their buildings for the next big thing.  I know it's cool to hate on the big or small companies that are successful so it won't stop.  But from my experience they give you a huge receipt if you can't keep that for your records well that's not their fault.   

    I have no dislike for Best Buy or Amazon.  They are great companies.  Here is the thing with GameStop; does everybody have a negative experience?  No, but a lot more people have them than have problems at any other major company, and have you ever heard of people actually having *positive* experiences at GameStop?  On a good day, they rise to the level of "bleh."  It's a terrible place to buy games.  There is absolutely nothing about the company that would lead a rational person who actually weighed the pros and cons to give them any amount of business if there were an alternative store nearby.  I would *love* it if they would go out of business, so that the dollars people spend there could go to a company with higher standards and better behavior.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • indefindef Member UncommonPosts: 344
    Originally posted by youvewasted2yrs
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by youvewasted2yrs
    Originally posted by mbd1968
    You see a lawyer and sue both Gamestop and Zenemax. The mental anguish caused could get you millions in damages.

    I took yours as sarcastic, but earlier someone posted about hiring a lawyer and they were serious.  What is wrong with people to think you should sue over missing out on two days of a video game.  

    It's probably not realistic, but it would be nice if a class action lawsuit were filed against Gamestop by all of the people they've ever screwed out of content they paid for.  There are probably enough people total that it could make a healthy dent in their bottom line, and if any retailer deserves to have bad things happen to it, it's Gamestop.  I really don't see why they should get a pass just because what they are selling is video games.  

    Their behavior is no different than opening up a box, removing some of the items inside, then sealing the box back up and selling it at the price intended for all of the box's contents.  Really shouldn't matter what's in the box, it should only matter that they are effectively stealing from their customers.

    Highly doubtful that any substantial number of the people they've screwed kept good records though, so hard to actually prove their behavior in an actual court.

     

    Well I would say those that don't have proof and tell horror stories are just doing the "cool thing " and jumping on the bandwagon.  Now I'm not saying it doesn't happen but to the extent you make it sound most definitely not .  I've been using gamestop since my parents took me there 20 yrs or so ago.  Not once have they messed up mine or anyone I knows orders.  If they were as bad as you try to make them they wouldn't have lines wrapped around their buildings for the next big thing.  I know it's cool to hate on the big or small companies that are successful so it won't stop.  But from my experience they give you a huge receipt if you can't keep that for your records well that's not their fault.   

    I've only shopped at Gamestop 1 time.

    Pre-ordered the GW2 physical collectors edition (they were the only distributor carrying it).  Got my account activation code on the receipt...went home and the code didn't work.  Went back to the store and they said they couldn't re-issue new codes.  They said to contact NCSoft customer support to get a new code.  Instead, I said "haha, yeah right" and cancelled my purchase.  I wrote a letter to Gamestop corporate and they responded with an apology and sent me a gift card for the total purchase of the collectors edtion (like $150).  I then sold the gift card on ebay for $100.

    Thanks for my $100 gamestop.

  • KnotwoodKnotwood Member CommonPosts: 1,103
    Originally posted by Rusque

    I pre-ordered the physical imperial edition in January when it was announced, finally got my code from gamestop after waiting patiently. It was a 3 day code.

    So I called Gamestop and they said, "sorry we ran out of 5 day codes" which I'm a bit confused how they ran out of a code that should be associated with my purchase. Anyway, they told me to contact Zenimax, so I did.

    And after getting my response (which was timely) from Zenimax I am baffled. How do they not have the ability to grant my account the full 5 day early access? Aren't they the ones who made the game? The CS rep is now telling me that I have to contact Gamestop again and basically just keep asking for managers until they find a code to give me.

    It's just 2 days, I get that and I'm less upset than I probably sound, it's just a bit irritating that I paid for a list of goods and am not receiving what I paid for. Anyway, I'll give it another go with Gamestop and see if they can right their wrong, bleh hate sitting on the phone for nonsense.

     

     

    I'm going to give you straight legal advice.   This problem is soley Gamestops.  Zenimax is free of all liability, although reporting gamestops practice to Zenimax might help them screw Gamestop over with some agreement they made with them.   What you want to do is this....

    Go to BBB.org, and first file a complaint with them on Gamestop.   After doing that, call contact their main office on their website.  Tell them false adverstisment in the comments and that you are suppose to have a 5 day code which was not honored.  

     

    After that, choose if you want those two days extra or not,  if you want the two days extra, then cancel your order and buy digital CE from zenimax, and sue Gamestop for the loss of the physical edition.  

     

    If you don't want to go to court then eat the two days and take the physical edition when it comes if you really want it, or cancel it and send them a message that you are not going to take false advertisement and just buy the digital edition. 

     

    Horrible choices either way,  best thing to do is wait the two days, and never use Gamestop ever again.  Your not the first person whos been royally screwed over by gamestop and you wont be the last.    That's why I use Best Buy.

  • BigdaddyxBigdaddyx Member UncommonPosts: 2,039
    Originally posted by Rusque

    I pre-ordered the physical imperial edition in January when it was announced, finally got my code from gamestop after waiting patiently. It was a 3 day code.

    So I called Gamestop and they said, "sorry we ran out of 5 day codes" which I'm a bit confused how they ran out of a code that should be associated with my purchase. Anyway, they told me to contact Zenimax, so I did.

    And after getting my response (which was timely) from Zenimax I am baffled. How do they not have the ability to grant my account the full 5 day early access? Aren't they the ones who made the game? The CS rep is now telling me that I have to contact Gamestop again and basically just keep asking for managers until they find a code to give me.

    It's just 2 days, I get that and I'm less upset than I probably sound, it's just a bit irritating that I paid for a list of goods and am not receiving what I paid for. Anyway, I'll give it another go with Gamestop and see if they can right their wrong, bleh hate sitting on the phone for nonsense.

     

     

    That's weird. Zenimax can easily provides you with 5 days access. I had a similar problem with SWTOR and Bioware provided me with early access and even gave me further grace period till my game arrived.

    Wtf Zenimax?

  • indefindef Member UncommonPosts: 344
    Originally posted by Knotwood
    Originally posted by Rusque

    I pre-ordered the physical imperial edition in January when it was announced, finally got my code from gamestop after waiting patiently. It was a 3 day code.

    So I called Gamestop and they said, "sorry we ran out of 5 day codes" which I'm a bit confused how they ran out of a code that should be associated with my purchase. Anyway, they told me to contact Zenimax, so I did.

    And after getting my response (which was timely) from Zenimax I am baffled. How do they not have the ability to grant my account the full 5 day early access? Aren't they the ones who made the game? The CS rep is now telling me that I have to contact Gamestop again and basically just keep asking for managers until they find a code to give me.

    It's just 2 days, I get that and I'm less upset than I probably sound, it's just a bit irritating that I paid for a list of goods and am not receiving what I paid for. Anyway, I'll give it another go with Gamestop and see if they can right their wrong, bleh hate sitting on the phone for nonsense.

     

     

    I'm going to give you straight legal advice.   This problem is soley Gamestops.  Zenimax is free of all liability, although reporting gamestops practice to Zenimax might help them screw Gamestop over with some agreement they made with them.   What you want to do is this....

    Go to BBB.org, and first file a complaint with them on Gamestop.   After doing that, call contact their main office on their website.  Tell them false adverstisment in the comments and that you are suppose to have a 5 day code which was not honored.  

     

    After that, choose if you want those two days extra or not,  if you want the two days extra, then cancel your order and buy digital CE from zenimax, and sue Gamestop for the loss of the physical edition.  

     

    If you don't want to go to court then eat the two days and take the physical edition when it comes if you really want it, or cancel it and send them a message that you are not going to take false advertisement and just buy the digital edition. 

     

    Horrible choices either way,  best thing to do is wait the two days, and never use Gamestop ever again.  Your not the first person whos been royally screwed over by gamestop and you wont be the last.    That's why I use Best Buy.

    I don't know if I'd take legal advice from a lawyer that doesn't know the difference between your and you're.  Secondly, I'd hardly describe losing 2 days of early access as "royally screwed over".  It's more like, "royally minor-ly inconvenienced."

    I get that it sucks, but acting like this is life or death is just absurd.  How the hell did you become a lawyer?

  • KnotwoodKnotwood Member CommonPosts: 1,103
    Originally posted by Bigdaddyx

    That's weird. Zenimax can easily provides you with 5 days access. I had a similar problem with SWTOR and Bioware provided me with early access and even gave me further grace period till my game arrived.

    Wtf Zenimax?

    This also.   If all your avenues with Gamestop are exhausted, keep contacting zenimax, telling them gamestop did not honor your 5 day code advertisement and keep using up their customer service time until you get someone who will honor it because of the cost in customer service wages over the code.

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 Member UncommonPosts: 2,770
    yeah...don't buy from gamestop. Retail chains like that have been bad business for gamers and developers for a while now.
  • Moar61Moar61 Member UncommonPosts: 260
    Originally posted by Rusque

    I pre-ordered the physical imperial edition in January when it was announced, finally got my code from gamestop after waiting patiently. It was a 3 day code.

    So I called Gamestop and they said, "sorry we ran out of 5 day codes" which I'm a bit confused how they ran out of a code that should be associated with my purchase. Anyway, they told me to contact Zenimax, so I did.

    And after getting my response (which was timely) from Zenimax I am baffled. How do they not have the ability to grant my account the full 5 day early access? Aren't they the ones who made the game? The CS rep is now telling me that I have to contact Gamestop again and basically just keep asking for managers until they find a code to give me.

    It's just 2 days, I get that and I'm less upset than I probably sound, it's just a bit irritating that I paid for a list of goods and am not receiving what I paid for. Anyway, I'll give it another go with Gamestop and see if they can right their wrong, bleh hate sitting on the phone for nonsense.

     

     

    That's bush league. I'm glad I went digital so I can avoid Gamestop/EB Games. They ALWAYS messed up pre-order bonuses with me.

  • SmarnyPeteSmarnyPete Member Posts: 69
    Originally posted by MeridiasBeacon
    if what the OP says is correct, shouldn't this be considered false advertisement? If something like this happens to me, first thing I ask the employee is to ask for a manager, next mention the false advertisement, and if that doesn't click to him/her, then next look for a lawyer

    Laywers are not cheap. You'd probably have to pay the retainer fee of a couple grand for a 1/2 way decent cheap lawyer. You then have to hope the billing hours you are charged ($100 plus per hour minimum) don't eat up your retainer fee or expect to pay even more. Best case, you can get one to work for free if he expects a big payout to pay back for his/her time or extremely large media exposure. I am not a lawyer.

    In other words, they know the regular gamer isn't going to jump through these hoops if they are indeed taking codes.

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by youvewasted2yrs 

    I will make sure I let the people wrapped around the building next time there is a big release that we are not rational people because some guy on mmorpg said so.  

    Pros and cons what the heck are you talking about?  

    Pro: I can put $5 down to preorder a game.

    pro: I pay attention to deals and can get $45 on trade in value (nobody can match that)

    Pro: I'm buying a stupid video game what can be a con about that ?  

    Pro: if they don't have a certain game they call around to other stores for me.

    Weigh the pros and cons of purchasing a video game too funny... 

    Try reading more carefully.  Weigh the pros and cons of giving your business to GameStop rather than one of the alternatives, not of whether to buy a particular product.

    As for your pros, your first is irrelevant, because you can do that anywhere that sells games, it's not unique to GameStop.  If you put down $5.00 to pre-order at WalMart, for instance, you also get a free $5.00 credit to rent or buy movies on Vudu.

    Your second only matters if you spend a lot on console games that you don't even like enough to keep.  And other stores are adding trade-in programs.

    Your third and fourth are, again, things that other stores will do as well.  They are not reasons to choose GameStop over an alternative retailer.

    So really, the only pro you listed that is even theoretically unique to GameStop is good trade-in value on used console games.  Which makes it a good place to *sell* - it's only a good place to buy to the extent you have store credit from selling there, if you have no store credit, it's still inferior to the alternatives.  Those people who are "lined up at every big release?"  Mostly fall into two categories; those who don't pay enough attention to the incentives offered by various retailers to realize that GameStop is categorically bottom of the barrel, and those who are cavalier enough about spending money that they just don't care that they are receiving sub-optimal value.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • SmarnyPeteSmarnyPete Member Posts: 69
    Originally posted by thunderC

    At this point OP I wouldn't even bother with the store you ordered it at, Im sure gamestop has to have some sort of corporate number where someone can give you better customer service.

     

     I don't know why anyone still orders Psychical box editions of games anymore.. I made the switch a long time ago, steam just made the transition very easy. I use to love actually having a box with game art and a booklet/instruction manual to read on the toilet , but the upside of having no clutter , avoiding a trip to the store and the ease of just downloading and playing the game the second it releases it so much better.

     

      I guess if your one of those doll collectors and enjoy the lore books then it makes sense.....kinda 

     

    Funny, when I used to get game boxes I learned how to play every game while sitting on the crapper.

  • donjndonjn Member UncommonPosts: 816
    ITT: First World Problems
  • KnotwoodKnotwood Member CommonPosts: 1,103
    Originally posted by indef
    Originally posted by Knotwood
    Originally posted by Rusque

    I pre-ordered the physical imperial edition in January when it was announced, finally got my code from gamestop after waiting patiently. It was a 3 day code.

    So I called Gamestop and they said, "sorry we ran out of 5 day codes" which I'm a bit confused how they ran out of a code that should be associated with my purchase. Anyway, they told me to contact Zenimax, so I did.

    And after getting my response (which was timely) from Zenimax I am baffled. How do they not have the ability to grant my account the full 5 day early access? Aren't they the ones who made the game? The CS rep is now telling me that I have to contact Gamestop again and basically just keep asking for managers until they find a code to give me.

    It's just 2 days, I get that and I'm less upset than I probably sound, it's just a bit irritating that I paid for a list of goods and am not receiving what I paid for. Anyway, I'll give it another go with Gamestop and see if they can right their wrong, bleh hate sitting on the phone for nonsense.

     

     

    I'm going to give you straight legal advice.   This problem is soley Gamestops.  Zenimax is free of all liability, although reporting gamestops practice to Zenimax might help them screw Gamestop over with some agreement they made with them.   What you want to do is this....

    Go to BBB.org, and first file a complaint with them on Gamestop.   After doing that, call contact their main office on their website.  Tell them false adverstisment in the comments and that you are suppose to have a 5 day code which was not honored.  

     

    After that, choose if you want those two days extra or not,  if you want the two days extra, then cancel your order and buy digital CE from zenimax, and sue Gamestop for the loss of the physical edition.  

     

    If you don't want to go to court then eat the two days and take the physical edition when it comes if you really want it, or cancel it and send them a message that you are not going to take false advertisement and just buy the digital edition. 

     

    Horrible choices either way,  best thing to do is wait the two days, and never use Gamestop ever again.  Your not the first person whos been royally screwed over by gamestop and you wont be the last.    That's why I use Best Buy.

    I don't know if I'd take legal advice from a lawyer that doesn't know the difference between your and you're.  Secondly, I'd hardly describe losing 2 days of early access as "royally screwed over".  It's more like, "royally minor-ly inconvenienced."

    I get that it sucks, but acting like this is life or death is just absurd.  How the hell did you become a lawyer?

    Never said I was a Lawyer, I got sick and tired of businesses screwing me over in my real life, that I learned the laws on my own at the library.   No way is any business running me over with false advertisement, I'd have the BBB on them, the FTC, a small claims court filing, and local police reports on the business.   It probably wouldn't make it to court with me, the Owner would fix my small problem fast.

    Go to the business with a big sign that says "This business will not honor false advertisments".   Do that for the FULL two days you are not playing ESO.   If they call the police on you, just don't block any roadways or sidewalks to access the business and they legally cannot do anything about your protesting.   No owner wants protesters outside their business telling their customers what happened, which is your legal right.

  • KnotwoodKnotwood Member CommonPosts: 1,103
    Originally posted by donjn
    ITT: First World Problems

    If it wasn't for the first worlds wealth, you'd never get any American Aid for your country...   just saying.

  • Bad.dogBad.dog Member UncommonPosts: 1,131
    Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
    Originally posted by Rusque

    I pre-ordered the physical imperial edition in January when it was announced, finally got my code from gamestop after waiting patiently. It was a 3 day code.

    So I called Gamestop and they said, "sorry we ran out of 5 day codes" which I'm a bit confused how they ran out of a code that should be associated with my purchase. Anyway, they told me to contact Zenimax, so I did.

    And after getting my response (which was timely) from Zenimax I am baffled. How do they not have the ability to grant my account the full 5 day early access? Aren't they the ones who made the game? The CS rep is now telling me that I have to contact Gamestop again and basically just keep asking for managers until they find a code to give me.

    It's just 2 days, I get that and I'm less upset than I probably sound, it's just a bit irritating that I paid for a list of goods and am not receiving what I paid for. Anyway, I'll give it another go with Gamestop and see if they can right their wrong, bleh hate sitting on the phone for nonsense.

     

     

    That's weird. Zenimax can easily provides you with 5 days access. I had a similar problem with SWTOR and Bioware provided me with early access and even gave me further grace period till my game arrived.

    Wtf Zenimax?

    LOL this crap just never stops ....sorry for the hard luck OP

  • KnotwoodKnotwood Member CommonPosts: 1,103
    Originally posted by youvewasted2yrs

    Well you did not learn much in your library.  You would have the BBB on them?  So what exactly is the BBB going to do to them?  The BBB does nothing they are a rating service and will allow you to post negative or positive reviews but in no way will the BBB help you track down the company, help you in court they will do nothing, must have missed that in your research. 

    BBB does moderate complaints, and if the business ignores them, they get a downgrade to their status, and a little complaint is listed that says they falsely advertised and did not remedy it.    Sure a small amount of people use it, but its great for knowing if your going to be screwed by a business and how, and their history of how they screw you.

    Your going to call the police on GameStop for false advertisement?  Again not sure what books you are reading, but they will do nothing to help you.  They will direct you to a lawyer that is all. 

    Yes with your apparent vast knowledge I am sure everyone is afraid of you and will fix your problem right away. 

    Every police report filed against a business goes on the permanent record of the establishment.  Though it wont do crap, it will create a history on a business that will hurt its chances of selling that store and hurt its chamber of commerce membership.

    By law you have the right to file a criminal complaint against any business or person.

    If the officer does not take your complaint, you can file a complaint agasint that officer for not allowing you to file a complaint.

    After three complaints against an officer, they get reviewd by Internal affairs and can be terminated for it.

  • KnotwoodKnotwood Member CommonPosts: 1,103
    Originally posted by youvewasted2yrs

    Yes I am aware of what the BBB does.  You said put the BBB on them, again the BBB will not do anything.  You can post reviews and if they get enough negative ones they may drop.  But for your information GameStop is not accredited by the BBB and the one I looked up had a B+ rating you better start posting on them. 

     

    B+ is horrible, it means they did not address customers problems, Every business starts at A+ and it starts to drop every single time people do not get their issues addressed or resolved by the company.  

    The police will not file a report unless you can show proof of false advertisement, all they will do is direct you to a lawyer.  Again I think you library was a little off. 

    Correction, they must by law take your complaint.   What your confused about is, they do not have to act upon that complaint with prosecution powers after its been filed.  But by law they have to take it.

  • calibekcalibek Member UncommonPosts: 300

    I'd be pissed. Cancel at Gamestop and order online.

     

    I am still pissed at them that I preordered Ultima Online: Age of Shadows and never got a code for my Shroud of shadows...In hindsight its not a big deal now but then I was PISSED simply because t he shroud looked so cool.

    image
This discussion has been closed.