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Zerg Rule?

carpalcarpal Member UncommonPosts: 99
I have watched alot of PVP videos, and it still looks like ultimately PVP is zerg based.  Kinda disheartening for me.  Coming off other games, with Zerg PVP you usually just end up specking for as much ranged damage you consistently toss about.  Has anyone experienced small skirmishes, where having specific fighting styles and character specifics make any difference besides just ranged nuking?

Comments

  • watchawatchawatchawatcha Member Posts: 960
    Originally posted by carpal
    I have watched alot of PVP videos, and it still looks like ultimately PVP is zerg based.  Kinda disheartening for me.  Coming off other games, with Zerg PVP you usually just end up specking for as much ranged damage you consistently toss about.  Has anyone experienced small skirmishes, where having specific fighting styles and character specifics make any difference besides just ranged nuking?

    There are choke points that a well organized smaller group can cutdown an unorganized zerg.  Now if the Zerg is organized...well that's different.  But is a large group of people = zerg?  Or does unorganized have to be part of the large group of people to equal zerg.  Never really knew the rules on that part of the definition.

  • carpalcarpal Member UncommonPosts: 99
    I always thought of "Zerg" as 25 or more, maybe 20.  Somewhat organized, but really just winning by numbers.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Originally posted by carpal
    I have watched alot of PVP videos, and it still looks like ultimately PVP is zerg based.  Kinda disheartening for me.  Coming off other games, with Zerg PVP you usually just end up specking for as much ranged damage you consistently toss about.  Has anyone experienced small skirmishes, where having specific fighting styles and character specifics make any difference besides just ranged nuking?

    The zone is big enough that you can leave the zerg behind and have a lot of fun in a small group or even solo. The fact that everyone has stealth makes that very viable.

     

    I spent a whole day on a busy Saturday a few weekends ago doing nothing but solo PVP and Sky Shard hunting in Cyrodiil. It was very easy to avoid the zergs that at times, were quite close to me and pick off stragglers to have 1-on-1 fights.

    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • carpalcarpal Member UncommonPosts: 99
    sounds awesome Iselin.  I like the idea of running with 5-10 guidlies/friends/potential friends, scouring the zone picking off other groups, getting down to detail on battle, where choices in 3 seconds make a difference.  Not just widespread nuking.  Is the world so big though, that you just end up wondering around?
  • watchawatchawatchawatcha Member Posts: 960
    Originally posted by carpal
    I always thought of "Zerg" as 25 or more, maybe 20.  Somewhat organized, but really just winning by numbers.

    k.  gotcha.  then no.  Zergs can't just win by numbers, unless the opposition is severely outnumbered or unorganized as well.

    Like I said, there are built in choke points to break up a zerg.  Also the map is huge, meaning a majority of the time people will have a far way to run to get back in the action.  By the way which puts them again on the other side of the choke point.  Which allows opposition players to pick off in small skirmishes or to continue to disrupt said Zerg.  It's a huge variation from GW2 and one of the key differences between the two styles of games, as an example.

  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by carpal
    I have watched alot of PVP videos, and it still looks like ultimately PVP is zerg based.  Kinda disheartening for me.  Coming off other games, with Zerg PVP you usually just end up specking for as much ranged damage you consistently toss about.  Has anyone experienced small skirmishes, where having specific fighting styles and character specifics make any difference besides just ranged nuking?

    The zone is big enough that you can leave the zerg behind and have a lot of fun in a small group or even solo. The fact that everyone has stealth makes that very viable.

     

    I spent a whole day on a busy Saturday a few weekends ago doing nothing but solo PVP and Sky Shard hunting in Cyrodiil. It was very easy to avoid the zergs that at times, were quite close to me and pick off stragglers to have 1-on-1 fights.

    This is how I lived in Daoc...

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  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722

    what i understand as a Zerg is a Tsunami of people. Organized or unorganized its a wave of people moving as one and killing everything that gets on their way.

     

    Im sure that zergfest will happen in ESO but the way the map and all the points are set (looking at a map) gives me the impression that zergs will have to be well organized or they could get easily overwhelmed by various smaller groups that know what they're doing.





  • SatariousSatarious Member UncommonPosts: 1,073
    Ignorant whines about zergs really make me want to play a tank.  The zerg whiners are really just following a herd themselves:  The self-defeatist herd that think numbers always win no matter what.  And this same self-defeatist herd always follow this logic that "only range can be effective in mass warfare" mentality.  Which makes me want to play a tank because I've pretty much proven time and time again that tanks can be absolutely essential in turning the tide of battle in these types of games.  It's the tanks who make things happen and put things in motion when you have a bunch of caster/archer types lobbing dps at each other with no real overall momentum in the fight.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Originally posted by carpal
    sounds awesome Iselin.  I like the idea of running with 5-10 guidlies/friends/potential friends, scouring the zone picking off other groups, getting down to detail on battle, where choices in 3 seconds make a difference.  Not just widespread nuking.  Is the world so big though, that you just end up wondering around?

    It's big enough that you could avoid most fights if that's what you want. You'd need a lot of patience though...walking stealthed is damn slow.

     

    But eventually you have to break out of stealth even if it's just to claim a sky shard... someone else could be hiding in the bushes waiting for you to do just that :)

    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • watchawatchawatchawatcha Member Posts: 960
    Originally posted by Satarious
    Ignorant whines about zergs really make me want to play a tank.  The zerg whiners are really just following a herd themselves:  The self-defeatist herd that think numbers always win no matter what.  And this same self-defeatist herd always follow this logic that "only range can be effective in mass warfare" mentality.  Which makes me want to play a tank because I've pretty much proven time and time again that tanks can be absolutely essential in turning the tide of battle in these types of games.  It's the tanks who make things happen and put things in motion when you have a bunch of caster/archer types lobbing dps at each other with no real overall momentum in the fight.

    I ran with a group of 20+ randoms over a bridge heading to a keep that our faction was assualting.  My group that I usually run with happened not to be on.  Watched half of the group die to about maybe 7 people if that?  They just kept rushing forward like they could power through the choke point.  lol hilarious.  I have to say the last couple of betas Daggerfall Covenant has really stepped it up.  Some of the small groups running around in the campaign I was in were really lethal. 

     

  • watchawatchawatchawatcha Member Posts: 960
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by carpal
    sounds awesome Iselin.  I like the idea of running with 5-10 guidlies/friends/potential friends, scouring the zone picking off other groups, getting down to detail on battle, where choices in 3 seconds make a difference.  Not just widespread nuking.  Is the world so big though, that you just end up wondering around?

    It's big enough that you could avoid most fights if that's what you want. You'd need a lot of patience though...walking stealthed is damn slow.

     

    But eventually you have to break out of stealth even if it's just to claim a sky shard... someone else could be hiding in the bushes waiting for you to do just that :)

    Also very important, when you check your map - the enemy can see you.  Unless they fixed that.

  • SatariousSatarious Member UncommonPosts: 1,073
    Originally posted by watchawatcha
    Originally posted by Satarious
    Ignorant whines about zergs really make me want to play a tank.  The zerg whiners are really just following a herd themselves:  The self-defeatist herd that think numbers always win no matter what.  And this same self-defeatist herd always follow this logic that "only range can be effective in mass warfare" mentality.  Which makes me want to play a tank because I've pretty much proven time and time again that tanks can be absolutely essential in turning the tide of battle in these types of games.  It's the tanks who make things happen and put things in motion when you have a bunch of caster/archer types lobbing dps at each other with no real overall momentum in the fight.

    I ran with a group of 20+ randoms over a bridge heading to a keep that our faction was assualting.  My group that I usually run with happened not to be on.  Watched half of the group die to about maybe 7 people if that?  They just kept rushing forward like they could power through the choke point.  lol hilarious.  I have to say the last couple of betas Daggerfall Covenant has really stepped it up.  Some of the small groups running around in the campaign I was in were really lethal. 

     

    I don't think what you've witnessed in beta accurately paints a picture of what endgame will eventually be like.  This is because that 7 man group you saw was probably between 2-3 times the level of those 20+ folks.  There were a lot of people in beta for a long time, so the new weekend warriors were pretty much fresh meat since they were all level 10 vs. these guys who have been in beta for awhile at level 25-50++.

    But yeah, strategy will be absolutely essential and will result in smaller groups eating larger groups for breakfast.  I just don't think you'll see things like Achilles and his dozen Mermen taking on a whole army when everybody is at the same approximate level and gear.

  • PyatraPyatra Member Posts: 644
    Originally posted by Satarious
    Originally posted by watchawatcha
    Originally posted by Satarious
    Ignorant whines about zergs really make me want to play a tank.  The zerg whiners are really just following a herd themselves:  The self-defeatist herd that think numbers always win no matter what.  And this same self-defeatist herd always follow this logic that "only range can be effective in mass warfare" mentality.  Which makes me want to play a tank because I've pretty much proven time and time again that tanks can be absolutely essential in turning the tide of battle in these types of games.  It's the tanks who make things happen and put things in motion when you have a bunch of caster/archer types lobbing dps at each other with no real overall momentum in the fight.

    I ran with a group of 20+ randoms over a bridge heading to a keep that our faction was assualting.  My group that I usually run with happened not to be on.  Watched half of the group die to about maybe 7 people if that?  They just kept rushing forward like they could power through the choke point.  lol hilarious.  I have to say the last couple of betas Daggerfall Covenant has really stepped it up.  Some of the small groups running around in the campaign I was in were really lethal. 

     

    I don't think what you've witnessed in beta accurately paints a picture of what endgame will eventually be like.  This is because that 7 man group you saw was probably between 2-3 times the level of those 20+ folks.  There were a lot of people in beta for a long time, so the new weekend warriors were pretty much fresh meat since they were all level 10 vs. these guys who have been in beta for awhile at level 25-50++.

    But yeah, strategy will be absolutely essential and will result in smaller groups eating larger groups for breakfast.  I just don't think you'll see things like Achilles and his dozen Mermen taking on a whole army when everybody is at the same approximate level and gear.

    Probably won't change,  boiling oil and choke points are an extremely deadly combination.  AD held Allesia bridge for 2 solid hours against a horde 4x our size and the same level.  Healing, tanking, and CC are more positional in this game due to LOS targeting and how several AoEs work.  Meaning terrain becomes a huge advantage especially when you are dropping several vats of oil over the only doorway.  We countered the enemy siege with side swipes by covert 2-3 man teams.  Those bridges and oil will knock a large group in half if the small groups CC the chargers at the door. 

  • carpalcarpal Member UncommonPosts: 99
    Originally posted by watchawatcha
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by carpal
    sounds awesome Iselin.  I like the idea of running with 5-10 guidlies/friends/potential friends, scouring the zone picking off other groups, getting down to detail on battle, where choices in 3 seconds make a difference.  Not just widespread nuking.  Is the world so big though, that you just end up wondering around?

    It's big enough that you could avoid most fights if that's what you want. You'd need a lot of patience though...walking stealthed is damn slow.

     

    But eventually you have to break out of stealth even if it's just to claim a sky shard... someone else could be hiding in the bushes waiting for you to do just that :)

    Also very important, when you check your map - the enemy can see you.  Unless they fixed that.

    Really?  Enemies show up on the map as dots?  That is really lame.

  • p4ttythep3rf3ctp4ttythep3rf3ct Member UncommonPosts: 194
    I have participated in many keep battles where we were vastly outnumbered.  We defended successfully each time.  And someone else mentioned this, but zerg != large group of people.  The term has apparently lost all of its original meaning.  Death MUST be meaningless/unit production MUST be cheap for a zerg to exist.  Sure, some people still will hit this qualifier of zerging, but just because you see 100 people all headed to the same keep does not a zerg make.

    That's just, like, my opinion, man.

  • carpalcarpal Member UncommonPosts: 99
    Originally posted by p4ttythep3rf3ct
    I have participated in many keep battles where we were vastly outnumbered.  We defended successfully each time.  And someone else mentioned this, but zerg != large group of people.  The term has apparently lost all of its original meaning.  Death MUST be meaningless/unit production MUST be cheap for a zerg to exist.  Sure, some people still will hit this qualifier of zerging, but just because you see 100 people all headed to the same keep does not a zerg make.

    Good point on the cheap production for Zerg. Excellent qualifier.  I get that death means running back along way, too long.  But can't you put forward camps to keep the Zerg production going?

  • PyatraPyatra Member Posts: 644
    Originally posted by watchawatcha
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by carpal
    sounds awesome Iselin.  I like the idea of running with 5-10 guidlies/friends/potential friends, scouring the zone picking off other groups, getting down to detail on battle, where choices in 3 seconds make a difference.  Not just widespread nuking.  Is the world so big though, that you just end up wondering around?

    It's big enough that you could avoid most fights if that's what you want. You'd need a lot of patience though...walking stealthed is damn slow.

     

    But eventually you have to break out of stealth even if it's just to claim a sky shard... someone else could be hiding in the bushes waiting for you to do just that :)

    Also very important, when you check your map - the enemy can see you.  Unless they fixed that.

     

     There is no minimap unless you whip out your full sized map.  Or where you using a minimap addon?  The full sized map couldn't even zoom in on your location.  Or did you mean the compass and not a map at all?

  • TechnohicTechnohic Member Posts: 148
    Originally posted by watchawatcha
    Originally posted by Satarious
    Ignorant whines about zergs really make me want to play a tank.  The zerg whiners are really just following a herd themselves:  The self-defeatist herd that think numbers always win no matter what.  And this same self-defeatist herd always follow this logic that "only range can be effective in mass warfare" mentality.  Which makes me want to play a tank because I've pretty much proven time and time again that tanks can be absolutely essential in turning the tide of battle in these types of games.  It's the tanks who make things happen and put things in motion when you have a bunch of caster/archer types lobbing dps at each other with no real overall momentum in the fight.

    I ran with a group of 20+ randoms over a bridge heading to a keep that our faction was assualting.  My group that I usually run with happened not to be on.  Watched half of the group die to about maybe 7 people if that?  They just kept rushing forward like they could power through the choke point.  lol hilarious.  I have to say the last couple of betas Daggerfall Covenant has really stepped it up.  Some of the small groups running around in the campaign I was in were really lethal. 

     

    I was involved in some of this in DC on Azura's Star.  We actually found a spot where we could get both AD and EP, which proved to be advantages when they would decide to come looking for us in mass and run into each other.  We would be hidden and laughing at them.

    I was also amused, even on our own zerg, the ammount of people just assaulting the front door of a keep where hot oil is being dumped by the truckload and they'd just stand in it..  It's at that point that you have to learn that the zerg is like a rodeo clown, drawing the bulls attention while you actually use your brain.  Bad new is, if you are doing what I was doing above in a party of ~7 or 8; the reinforcements stream becomes a river.

     

    That's pretty much what I consider as zerging BTW.  Relying on greater numbers and to keep constantly respawning only to just charge back in again.  In that sense, I complain about the same tactics that are often failing in smaller warzone/battleground instanced PvP when you PUG and everyone wants to keep running in as soon as they respawn to form a single file line to their next death.  

  • TechnohicTechnohic Member Posts: 148
    Originally posted by Pyatra
    Originally posted by watchawatcha
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by carpal
    sounds awesome Iselin.  I like the idea of running with 5-10 guidlies/friends/potential friends, scouring the zone picking off other groups, getting down to detail on battle, where choices in 3 seconds make a difference.  Not just widespread nuking.  Is the world so big though, that you just end up wondering around?

    It's big enough that you could avoid most fights if that's what you want. You'd need a lot of patience though...walking stealthed is damn slow.

     

    But eventually you have to break out of stealth even if it's just to claim a sky shard... someone else could be hiding in the bushes waiting for you to do just that :)

    Also very important, when you check your map - the enemy can see you.  Unless they fixed that.

     

     There is no minimap unless you whip out your full sized map.  Or where you using a minimap addon?  The full sized map couldn't even zoom in on your location.  Or did you mean the compass and not a map at all?

    When you check your full map while stealthed, they wil see a map floating there.  Opening your inventory would cause a bag to float there.  Supposed to be fixed come launch according to the last Reddit QNA

  • TechnohicTechnohic Member Posts: 148
    Originally posted by carpal
    Originally posted by p4ttythep3rf3ct
    I have participated in many keep battles where we were vastly outnumbered.  We defended successfully each time.  And someone else mentioned this, but zerg != large group of people.  The term has apparently lost all of its original meaning.  Death MUST be meaningless/unit production MUST be cheap for a zerg to exist.  Sure, some people still will hit this qualifier of zerging, but just because you see 100 people all headed to the same keep does not a zerg make.

    Good point on the cheap production for Zerg. Excellent qualifier.  I get that death means running back along way, too long.  But can't you put forward camps to keep the Zerg production going?

     

     

    All it takes is an enemy to find that camp and a single button press burns it to the ground.  

  • MeridiasBeaconMeridiasBeacon Member Posts: 86
    Zerg that deploys siege weapons, yes.
  • SatariousSatarious Member UncommonPosts: 1,073
    Originally posted by Technohic
    Originally posted by carpal
    Originally posted by p4ttythep3rf3ct
    I have participated in many keep battles where we were vastly outnumbered.  We defended successfully each time.  And someone else mentioned this, but zerg != large group of people.  The term has apparently lost all of its original meaning.  Death MUST be meaningless/unit production MUST be cheap for a zerg to exist.  Sure, some people still will hit this qualifier of zerging, but just because you see 100 people all headed to the same keep does not a zerg make.

    Good point on the cheap production for Zerg. Excellent qualifier.  I get that death means running back along way, too long.  But can't you put forward camps to keep the Zerg production going?

     

     

    All it takes is an enemy to find that camp and a single button press burns it to the ground.  

    Yeah, those things go down quick.  They only really survive if the enemy is negligent.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,396
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by carpal
    I have watched alot of PVP videos, and it still looks like ultimately PVP is zerg based.  Kinda disheartening for me.  Coming off other games, with Zerg PVP you usually just end up specking for as much ranged damage you consistently toss about.  Has anyone experienced small skirmishes, where having specific fighting styles and character specifics make any difference besides just ranged nuking?

    The zone is big enough that you can leave the zerg behind and have a lot of fun in a small group or even solo. The fact that everyone has stealth makes that very viable.

     

    I spent a whole day on a busy Saturday a few weekends ago doing nothing but solo PVP and Sky Shard hunting in Cyrodiil. It was very easy to avoid the zergs that at times, were quite close to me and pick off stragglers to have 1-on-1 fights.

    the problem with that is that its not effective for progression. We see this in GW2 as well. its simply an interesting element of playstyle but for those at the end of their character progression to do, since they no longer need to progress anymore.

     

    most players are not in a no progression mode like that.

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • PyatraPyatra Member Posts: 644
    Originally posted by Technohic
    Originally posted by Pyatra
    Originally posted by watchawatcha
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by carpal
    sounds awesome Iselin.  I like the idea of running with 5-10 guidlies/friends/potential friends, scouring the zone picking off other groups, getting down to detail on battle, where choices in 3 seconds make a difference.  Not just widespread nuking.  Is the world so big though, that you just end up wondering around?

    It's big enough that you could avoid most fights if that's what you want. You'd need a lot of patience though...walking stealthed is damn slow.

     

    But eventually you have to break out of stealth even if it's just to claim a sky shard... someone else could be hiding in the bushes waiting for you to do just that :)

    Also very important, when you check your map - the enemy can see you.  Unless they fixed that.

     

     There is no minimap unless you whip out your full sized map.  Or where you using a minimap addon?  The full sized map couldn't even zoom in on your location.  Or did you mean the compass and not a map at all?

    When you check your full map while stealthed, they wil see a map floating there.  Opening your inventory would cause a bag to float there.  Supposed to be fixed come launch according to the last Reddit QNA

     AH!  Ok, I took that wrong,  I didn't see any floating bags and when I was being a Ninja checking my map no one near me noticed so they may have already fixed it.  LOL, kind of like being chased by the Mudcrab pet.

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