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[Column] Elder Scrolls Online: Zenimax - A Good Guy Developer

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Comments

  • AldersAlders Member RarePosts: 2,175

    I'd hold off till, you know, the game is released at least.

    Bioware was one of the "good guys" as well.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Originally posted by bcbully
    So far, so good. Fast reaction time and competent development. 
     
    edit - for the record OP,  I've been thinking about this too.

    To be fair, though, Bethesda should have lots of experience dealing with bugs by now :) BAZINGA!

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • MaricMaric Member UncommonPosts: 98
    Author makes a good point. It's pretty amazing the scope of changes made so late in development. I'm happy with the changes and look forward to watching TES O mature.
  • blazzen67blazzen67 Member Posts: 65
    Originally posted by SetEssential
    I don't really think that change was needed or praiseworthy. Most Elder Scrolls games are slow leveling at the start which may seem boring for some people. It seems like no one has any patience anymore.
     

    now that i can agree with...some players feel they have to be the first to max level in an MMO like the game is only going to be out for a month instead of years..or they think they get some kind of prize that doesnt exist if they do.

  • GarbracGarbrac Member UncommonPosts: 32
    Originally posted by Alders

    I'd hold off till, you know, the game is released at least.

    Bioware was one of the "good guys" as well.

    BioWare never listened to the community when the bugs or features needed to be fixed. Some of the bugs I reported during Closed beta are sitll in the game LOL

  • XenraeXenrae Member Posts: 3
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by MintberryCrunch

    Yep they really went downhill with that little Skyrim game that sold over 20 million copies.

    Yeah, and man, look at all the customers McDonald's has every day.  They must make the highest quality, best tasting food in the world!  Or those Twilight movies, those must be great art, look at how many tickets they sold!  And that Dancing with the Stars, it's definitely the best show on tv.

    I absolutely hate this argument. 

    Pointless. So pointless. Logically fallible as well. So easy to break down and invalidate.

    Not at all logically fallible.  Skyrim was popular, that doesn't make it the best.  From my point of view, Oblivion was ten times better.

    It is good that Zenimax is listening to the community.  Let's hope they keep it up. The ego-stroking in this article is entirely unnecessary though.  The game has not been released, and these accolades have not been earned.

    And the game needs a marketplace.  Chat is going to be spammed to death with WTS and WTB.  A game should not be so intent on being different that it ignores game systems with a proven history, just to make the point.

  • YellowbearddYellowbeardd Member UncommonPosts: 83

    This is the first mmo after WoW that got me involved to the point i can't get enough and want to keep playing, i've played almost every other mmo that came out since and could never find my place in them to keep going but ESo is the first game for me, and i say me since all people opinions are different.

     

    You might think they are a new company first time making an mmo , that may be true to some of the people working there but they have the dark age of camelot team and other top mmo makers, with some of the best RPG experts making this game and they do listen and change the game to what the fans want to there best ability without wrecking the mmo aspect but i have high hopes for this game if they keep that up.

  • JJ82JJ82 Member UncommonPosts: 1,258
    Originally posted by Telondariel

    "..is Zenimax one of the best companies that has developed an MMO? I think so, strictly because they are concerned about their player experience"

    I think if you are going to criticize someone's article, you should at least get the quote and context right.  Otherwise, you just end up with egg on your face.

    Ryan posed a question:  "IS Zenimax ONE of the best companies.."    <---- notice the stressors there.

    You translated that into him saying that "Zenimax is the best company ever", and proceeded to rant.  Nice try though.

    1. Read the very first comment here. Now go read what he says right after that, talking about how they raised the bar on Blizzard. That clearly says where he ranks Zenimax. Where is the egg now?

    2. The entire article is based on building up the reputation of a company that has not even released a game yet in ways that are mind boggling. The entire First Person issue was one of the MINOR issues. The major issues in the TES community where the lack of a complete open world AS IN NO CLOSED FACTION LANDS. No racial/faction locks, No class locks, no crafting limitations and no focus on end game PvP. First person was ranked right where lore changes were, lower on the totem pole but still there.

    Their focus on first person was a distraction away from the major issues and they changed non of them. Adding a way around race/faction locks on the pre-order just angered people more.

    3. The company has not released a game, to place them at or near the top of the list is 100% ridiculous to say the least, as well as attempting to defend it.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • orbitxoorbitxo Member RarePosts: 1,946

    iam looking forward to see what my monthly sub will get me...i have yet to see the ever growing new patch to be released at due date!

    April is a big month for Z!

  • DrakynnDrakynn Member Posts: 2,030

    Explorer Pack for me makes anything else moot.

    Either stick to your guns about a feature they argued was a needed part of their game design and show you have a set or get rid of it for everyone entirely.

    Using it to sell preorders says to me that that's all it was ever intended for and you should expect more of the same shady practices in the future.

  • TelondarielTelondariel Member Posts: 1,001
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by Telondariel

    "..is Zenimax one of the best companies that has developed an MMO? I think so, strictly because they are concerned about their player experience"

    I think if you are going to criticize someone's article, you should at least get the quote and context right.  Otherwise, you just end up with egg on your face.

    Ryan posed a question:  "IS Zenimax ONE of the best companies.."    <---- notice the stressors there.

    You translated that into him saying that "Zenimax is the best company ever", and proceeded to rant.  Nice try though.

    1. Read the very first comment here. Now go read what he says right after that, talking about how they raised the bar on Blizzard. That clearly says where he ranks Zenimax. Where is the egg now?

    2. The entire article is based on building up the reputation of a company that has not even released a game yet in ways that are mind boggling. The entire First Person issue was one of the MINOR issues. The major issues in the TES community where the lack of a complete open world AS IN NO CLOSED FACTION LANDS. No racial/faction locks, No class locks, no crafting limitations and no focus on end game PvP. First person was ranked right where lore changes were, lower on the totem pole but still there.

    Their focus on first person was a distraction away from the major issues and they changed non of them. Adding a way around race/faction locks on the pre-order just angered people more.

    3. The company has not released a game, to place them at or near the top of the list is 100% ridiculous to say the least, as well as attempting to defend it.

    [mod edit]  As for the article itself, I simply don't see the need to have the level of negative criticism you put out.  I guess it's just a matter of perception.  I find the article gives kudos to a Dev team that has, so far, acted positively towards community criticism to help create the best product at launch.  Ryan simply recognized that, and gave praise where, imho, it was deserved. 

     

    image
  • maddog15amaddog15a Member UncommonPosts: 83
    Originally posted by blazzen67
    Originally posted by maddog15a

    There a company nether good or bad.  They're not your friend, they just want your money, like any other company.  Keep in mind only select few have tested the current version of the game.  The beta version is 3 months old(which makes no sense stress testing it but whatever).  So we have no idea how the current version will due with a the launch load.  Then there is the frequency of updates, we have no data on that, no history even.

    So calling Zenimax one of the best companies the has developed an mmo is silly.

    i cant think of many developers that would change their game this close to launch, can you??, try hundreds that have been testing the current build of the game, not "a select few". google the .180 patch notes to ESO and you will see they have changed and fixed a ton of things in game..they have stated they will have meaningful updates added to the game every 4 weeks, they have already finished with 4 updates for after launch and they continue to work on more. If they arent one of the best companies now, they are headed in the right direction in my opinion. and by the way, they will have one more beta test with the current build of the game before early access on the 30th of this month. If you actually did some research and asked the right people you would find all the data you want on this game.

    "They have stated..." We have seen nothing yet so no there is no data on the quality or frequency of their updates.  100s of players is a select few when it comes to testing an mmo.  Devcat, Carbine, Funcom, Bluehole, GGG, and many more have made changes this close to launch of a mmo.  Hell Devcat added entire new skill set 1 day before launch of there f2p mmo.  Zenimax, has yet to do anything that hasn't been done before as an mmo developer.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,932
    Originally posted by Xenrae
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by MintberryCrunch

    Yep they really went downhill with that little Skyrim game that sold over 20 million copies.

    Yeah, and man, look at all the customers McDonald's has every day.  They must make the highest quality, best tasting food in the world!  Or those Twilight movies, those must be great art, look at how many tickets they sold!  And that Dancing with the Stars, it's definitely the best show on tv.

    I absolutely hate this argument. 

    Pointless. So pointless. Logically fallible as well. So easy to break down and invalidate.

    Not at all logically fallible.  Skyrim was popular, that doesn't make it the best.  From my point of view, Oblivion was ten times better.

    It is good that Zenimax is listening to the community.  Let's hope they keep it up. The ego-stroking in this article is entirely unnecessary though.  The game has not been released, and these accolades have not been earned.

    And the game needs a marketplace.  Chat is going to be spammed to death with WTS and WTB.  A game should not be so intent on being different that it ignores game systems with a proven history, just to make the point.

    And a lot of people hated Oblivion and felt it was the worst of the games, especially with the level scaling.

    He's kind of right, it's not a great argument.

    McDonald's might not make the "best" food in the world if you are comparing to 5 star restaurants but maybe they make the best fast food in the world? Or maybe they are a great convenient fast food restaurant and one of the best at providing that service.

    If they were horrible no one would eat there no matter how much marketing. But that's subjective.

    Additionally, if 1 million people love McDonald's and think it's the greatest and 6 people think it's the worse crap on the face of the planet then it's hard to really argue that "they are the worst crap on the face of the planet" except for those 6 people.  But again it depends upon the criteria and is very subjective.

    Many people LOVE the Twilight books/films so they have to be great on some level. They have to speak to people on some level.

    here is a decent video by one person who, though he also felt there were weak parts of skyrim, felt there were actually some very strong points in the game. Stronger than previous games. And I can't say I disagree with his assessment.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEI4yS7sFEw

     




  • chriswsmchriswsm Member UncommonPosts: 383

    Very well written article

     

    Sadly while reading the comments I am reminded why I hardly every visit MMORPG.com anymore.   Its not the site.  Its not the staff.  Its the grumpy kids.  Every year most of the community seems to be a lot more grumpy, demanding and negative that the previous year.  

    I used to visit this site a lot however in recent years it has become the home of negative forum posts, illogical opinions and tantrums so I visit less often.

    Played or Beta'd: UO / DAOC / Horizons / EQ2 / DDO / EVE / Archlord / PirateKingsOnline / Tabula Rasa / LOTRO / AOC / Champions / Darkfall / Mortal Online / DCUO / Rift / STO / SWTOR / TSW

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198

    Originally posted by Alders

    I'd hold off till, you know, the game is released at least.

    Bioware was one of the "good guys" as well.

    I would argue that the ending of Mass Effect 3 did more to hurt their reputation than anything about TOR.

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    And a lot of people hated Oblivion and felt it was the worst of the games, especially with the level scaling.

    He's kind of right, it's not a great argument.

    McDonald's might not make the "best" food in the world if you are comparing to 5 star restaurants but maybe they make the best fast food in the world? Or maybe they are a great convenient fast food restaurant and one of the best at providing that service.

    If they were horrible no one would eat there no matter how much marketing. But that's subjective.

    Additionally, if 1 million people love McDonald's and think it's the greatest and 6 people think it's the worse crap on the face of the planet then it's hard to really argue that "they are the worst crap on the face of the planet" except for those 6 people.  But again it depends upon the criteria and is very subjective.

    Many people LOVE the Twilight books/films so they have to be great on some level. They have to speak to people on some level.

    here is a decent video by one person who, though he also felt there were weak parts of skyrim, felt there were actually some very strong points in the game. Stronger than previous games. And I can't say I disagree with his assessment.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEI4yS7sFEw

    How good something is depends on where you are looking from, and what you are looking for.  Whether or not Skyrim is a quality game is not the same question as whether or not it is a quality RPG.  Whether or not Twilight is entertaining is not the same question as whether or not it is well written.  Whether McDonald's food tastes good is not the same question as whether it has high grade ingredients or trained chefs in the kitchen.

    If one were to judge games on nothing but their graphics and their combat, Skyrim would probably be the best game released in the series.  It is a very good medieval FPS, and I would spend time playing it over most other FPS games.  But judging it as an RPG, it is shallow and generic, and unworthy of being talked about in the same conversation as Daggerfall or Morrowind.  The essence of the RPG is choice, both mechanically and narratively, and Skyrim offers few of either kind of choice.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • EndoRobotoEndoRoboto Member Posts: 275
    CazNeerg, totally agree and well said.
  • PoisinivyPoisinivy Member Posts: 4
    now if they would only give us the bag/bank space PER character that we have been askin for then the game might be considerable oh yeah and dont forget right now your account LOGIN is used as your username in game so everyone in the game can get your login information what they should have done is had us create a seperate @Username at launch that kept our Login safe
     
  • JJ82JJ82 Member UncommonPosts: 1,258
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    And a lot of people hated Oblivion and felt it was the worst of the games, especially with the level scaling.

    He's kind of right, it's not a great argument.

    McDonald's might not make the "best" food in the world if you are comparing to 5 star restaurants but maybe they make the best fast food in the world? Or maybe they are a great convenient fast food restaurant and one of the best at providing that service.

    If they were horrible no one would eat there no matter how much marketing. But that's subjective.

    Additionally, if 1 million people love McDonald's and think it's the greatest and 6 people think it's the worse crap on the face of the planet then it's hard to really argue that "they are the worst crap on the face of the planet" except for those 6 people.  But again it depends upon the criteria and is very subjective.

    Many people LOVE the Twilight books/films so they have to be great on some level. They have to speak to people on some level.

    Great post.

    I think the thing that is constantly lost in the arguments about this topic is that this game is based on an existing IP and will always, and should always be held in that context. It is going to have deeper emotions by the existing fans and those fans don't want all the same things, don't have the same expectations and don't have the same memories of the series.

    None of their opinions should be dismissed. They are all worthy. The problem that keeps popping up are from those continually telling others they shouldn't say bad things, or that what they are saying is meaningless. It isn't. They have their reasons and they are as good as those that say positive things.

    Because face it, if the game had a different name, like DaoC 2, few would care enough to post anything about it. Its the name that's bringing in the people and the opinions.

    So back in context of your post, there is yet another greater issue here. The game is a TES MMO. If the MMO is not being made for TES players, then why was the name used? Well that one should be obvious, because few would care about the game if it didn't, they needed a famous IP.

    If it IS being made for the TES players, is it being made for the players of the older games? If so, that would firstly be incredibly stupid of them to target the smaller amount of fans but also doubly stupid because the MMO would then be NOTHING like the games for using Skyrim graphics and trying to come close to its style. If it isn't for older TES fans, but newer ones which really, lets face it......that's their target because there are far far far far far far more of them, still miss their mark, because the game lacks the key features they expect and push far too many MMO aspects that are anti-SRPG features and will end up pushing them away.

    The entire process is a catch 22 for an old school developer like Firor. Someone more along the lines of Raph Koster should have made this game, it needed someone looking forward, not behind in order to blur the lines between the genres to be able to catch and hold the different types of fans.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979

    Argument is logically fallible because it is based on subjective opinion.

    Too hard to deconstruct the multitude of variable to even make logical arguments.

    For example, you could say "all else being equal, the product the sells the most must be the best because it is selling the most and all else is equal."

    But that is a fallacy as well. All else is rarely, if ever equal.

    On McDonalds, the quality and skill of preparation is obviously inferior, but the price is highly competitive, as is the convenience, the marketing is pervasive, the brand recognition apparent, and the global availability certainly a huge factor.

    Much too complex to say that McDonalds is popular because it is cheap not because it is any good.

    That is already a false logical argument, as "good" is subjective.

    Saying that something being entertaining is not necessarily well written is also asinine, as is that saying something that is a good game is not necessarily a good RPG, etc.

    Popularity cannot be a measure of quality, nor can obscurity. 

    Quality in this case is highly subjective as well.

    I could go on forever...

    Point is - subjective article and discussion is subjective, and anyone saying otherwise is engaging in illogical assumption.

  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,120
    Originally posted by CazNeerg

    Originally posted by Alders

    I'd hold off till, you know, the game is released at least.

    Bioware was one of the "good guys" as well.

    I would argue that the ending of Mass Effect 3 did more to hurt their reputation than anything about TOR.

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    And a lot of people hated Oblivion and felt it was the worst of the games, especially with the level scaling.

    He's kind of right, it's not a great argument.

    McDonald's might not make the "best" food in the world if you are comparing to 5 star restaurants but maybe they make the best fast food in the world? Or maybe they are a great convenient fast food restaurant and one of the best at providing that service.

    If they were horrible no one would eat there no matter how much marketing. But that's subjective.

    Additionally, if 1 million people love McDonald's and think it's the greatest and 6 people think it's the worse crap on the face of the planet then it's hard to really argue that "they are the worst crap on the face of the planet" except for those 6 people.  But again it depends upon the criteria and is very subjective.

    Many people LOVE the Twilight books/films so they have to be great on some level. They have to speak to people on some level.

    here is a decent video by one person who, though he also felt there were weak parts of skyrim, felt there were actually some very strong points in the game. Stronger than previous games. And I can't say I disagree with his assessment.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEI4yS7sFEw

    How good something is depends on where you are looking from, and what you are looking for.  Whether or not Skyrim is a quality game is not the same question as whether or not it is a quality RPG.  Whether or not Twilight is entertaining is not the same question as whether or not it is well written.  Whether McDonald's food tastes good is not the same question as whether it has high grade ingredients or trained chefs in the kitchen.

    If one were to judge games on nothing but their graphics and their combat, Skyrim would probably be the best game released in the series.  It is a very good medieval FPS, and I would spend time playing it over most other FPS games.  But judging it as an RPG, it is shallow and generic, and unworthy of being talked about in the same conversation as Daggerfall or Morrowind.  The essence of the RPG is choice, both mechanically and narratively, and Skyrim offers few of either kind of choice.

    skyrim and like all bethesda games only become good after mods fix they game, better graphics? mods did, fixed bugs? mods did, bethesda per see is a crappy dev, all his games are full of bugs, only theing they did right is let modder fix they games, so in the end they gather all money and let the players do all work to make they game close to any kind of sucess, and the more they make the games, more they let in the hand of modders to fix they crappy job.

     

    now for ESO, I can sure bet why they had to pay for collums like this, hey if what we played on this last 2 betas was not they last version, then come to my mind only one question why you want to stress test a server with a limited build? the fist time was a annoying fiasco with his login queue, and don't matter what you guys say they know pretty well how many players they would have on they server and even so problems like that happen, the second time same thing pvp lagued like hell, normal pve bugs around, old bugs at that too, me was a dev I would be shamed to put a game to test like that without anything planed and sure not willing to give the best they can, because hey this last 2 betas was for 2 things, stress test server and make hype, from this i'm certain sure one of then failed, and i'm not even saying about teh sahdy bussiness of pre order "goodies".

     

    but pretty sure next comment will be of people cursing, saying i'm crazy for not liking they holy grail (AGAIN)

    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • zeuseasonzeuseason Member UncommonPosts: 69
    Good write up with important points.  Despite being thrust into the open world faster, I'll be happily going back to do all the early level content.
  • LawlmonsterLawlmonster Member UncommonPosts: 1,085
    I might be a bit out of sorts around here, or in most places that materialistic worship of companies or brand names is lauded as normal behavior, but it's always best to be indifferent when it comes to any organization that's sole purpose rests within finding ways to make money.

    "This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  • MysteryBMysteryB Member UncommonPosts: 355
    I liked the starting areas but I agree the game improves 10 fold after lvl 10

    Mystery Bounty

  • NataiNatai Member Posts: 7

    We've seen two patches pushed to PTS in as many weeks, both with changes in response to the community.  Bag size has been increased and collision detection has been added to PvE - a rather surprising addition this close to launch.

    I've been pleasantly surprised by their willingness to make changes based on community feedback - especially with less than a month til launch.

    image

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,807

    " So I ask you, is Zenimax one of the best companies that has developed an MMO? I think so...." 

    Aren't you getting ahead of yourself here? What MMO have they developed? Last I checked TESO hadn't released yet. How about we let the game release and let everyone have some real time in the game outside Beta Events? Then we can determine the kind of developer Zenimax is before we call them the "Good Guys".

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