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What's the difference between fighting great AI and fighting a player?

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  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,175
    Originally posted by bcbully

    It's combat right?

     

    Why would a person ask for great AI to combat, but refuse to engage in combat with a player? 

     

    I'm no psychologist, so could some one please explain this mindset? 

     

     

    David vs Goliath. 

     

    Would the story be as interesting if it was David vs Steve? or if Goliath used slingshots too?

     

     

    image

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member UncommonPosts: 3,145
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by bcbully

    It's combat right?

     

    Why would a person ask for great AI to combat, but refuse to engage in combat with a player? 

     

    I'm no psychologist, so could some one please explain this mindset? 

     

     

    The reality is, there will never be a great AI in games, because AI is programmed to lose by default, while players on the other hand want to win be default.

     

     Your point is invalid. Go play UT2k4 and play against the hardest difficulty bot and tell me if it's programmed to lose to you.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,175
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by bcbully

    It's combat right?

     

    Why would a person ask for great AI to combat, but refuse to engage in combat with a player? 

     

    I'm no psychologist, so could some one please explain this mindset? 

     

     

    The reality is, there will never be a great AI in games, because AI is programmed to lose by default, while players on the other hand want to win be default.

     

     Your point is invalid. Go play UT2k4 and play against the hardest difficulty bot and tell me if it's programmed to lose to you.

    UT2k4 is not an MMO. single-player games and singleplayer modes are contradicting what MMOexposed wrote, because they are not designed to be farmed for progression but to be the challenge. 

    image

  • MamasGunMamasGun Member Posts: 152
    Originally posted by bcbully

    It's combat right?

     

    Why would a person ask for great AI to combat, but refuse to engage in combat with a player? 

     

    I'm no psychologist, so could some one please explain this mindset? 

     

     

    Ah... you again.  Yes, youI remember you and someone else (Display name escapes me) had another topic like this posted somewhere else.  At this point, after how eloquently many people explained the idea of why people prefer PvE over PvP, I have come to believe that you are not actually trying to learn and understand- you're berating and trolling.

    I'll type slow 'cos I know you don't read too fast- People. like. to. PvE. instead. of. PvP. because. of. people. like. you.  It's. never. enough. to. PvP. and. win. once.  You. have. to. have. your. ego. stroked.

    I'd. rather. play. against. a. DUMB. AI. then. against. the. likes. of. you. in. PvP.

    People. have. already. in. your. other. posts. tried. to explain. this. to. you. Stop. You. don't. want. to. learn. and. understand. You. just. want. to. troll.

    Other than trolling, I can't understand why you'd make a new topic about the same shit.  Have you tried to PvP since the last topic (about a week ago), and no one would play with you?  And you still think it's other people with the problems that don't want to play with you, and not you? 

    I'd say ask some of your friends to PvP you, but I can pretty much tell you don't have any, and I bet I know why. 

    The million dollar question is- Do you?

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  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091

    I haven't been following this thread but first of all I've never played against an AI that played like another player.

     

    Second, I care more about the politics and reputation that come along with pvp. I want there to be good guys, bad guys, mercenaries, thieves, etc. I want stories.

     

    If we're talking about relatively meaningfull arenas or battlegrounds, I would not care if I were playing against an AI that was perfectly programmed to play like a human.

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Member UncommonPosts: 1,920
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Madimorga
    Originally posted by McJer84
    The correct answer to your questions is predictable actions. NPCs will react in a fixed way to any given thing as where a player will adapt and innovate.

     

    Too bad 'innovate' often means 'loses fair fight, brings high level friends to help win next fight'.  

     

    The reason people win against AI now is because that is how the AI is designed.  The players are supposed to win.  Certainly they may have to go through a specific sequence, solve the combat-dance puzzle, but AI is made to be beaten.  Even in games like Dark Souls, there is meant to be a winner, and that winner is meant to be the player.

     

    We are already to the point where the AI in network games must be gimped in order to allow players to win.  This wasn't always the case.  In the past, the AI had to cheat just to break even.  As in break the rules cheat, not just have inflated hit points and the like.  It's not like this any longer.  Reduction of network latency, AI complexity and computing power have all well surpassed what is necessary to build an AI that can win the simplistic fights available in video games.

     

    People seem to forget that computer AI are created by people.  If someone was set a task to create an AI with the purpose of defeating any and all human competitors in a fair fight, that is exactly what would happen.  Even there the AI would have to be gimped to account for the 100 millisecond fastest possible human reaction time* or the fights wouldn't be anywhere close to fair.  You know what the human response would be?  Exactly what @Madimorga said, stack the odds with more players versus the AI. 

     

    * Time it takes you and any other human to pull your finger off of a hot stove.

     

    **

     

    Wow.  I went way off topic.  Another post up there answered the question though.  The AI in a game exists for the player to win, because it's a game.  The idea is to offer enough challenge to be fun, without being a d!ck about it.

     

     

    So what you're saying is, devs could have mobs go get their high level friends to come back for some sweet revenge, too.  

     

    Yes, yes they could.

     

    But I still wouldn't find it half as annoying as when a person does it!

    image

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  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member UncommonPosts: 3,145
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by bcbully

    It's combat right?

     

    Why would a person ask for great AI to combat, but refuse to engage in combat with a player? 

     

    I'm no psychologist, so could some one please explain this mindset? 

     

     

    The reality is, there will never be a great AI in games, because AI is programmed to lose by default, while players on the other hand want to win be default.

     

     Your point is invalid. Go play UT2k4 and play against the hardest difficulty bot and tell me if it's programmed to lose to you.

    UT2k4 is not an MMO. single-player games and singleplayer modes are contradicting what MMOexposed wrote, because they are not designed to be farmed for progression but to be the challenge. 

     This thread isn't about MMOs specifically. It's a thread about A.I. my point still stands.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • kkarrabbasskkarrabbass Member Posts: 152
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Chess is pattern based, it's right down the street of ai, humans do the unpredictable due to a mix of emotions and rote and skill and logical leaps - that ai can't do yet, 1 day though we will be ganked by an ai :p

    All unpredictable things humans do work against those humans. Strictly following plan is most efficient way to achieve any goal. It is only in movies human emotions win. What else could you expect from movies made by humans? Humans like to glorify their imperfections. Sorry for bursting your romantic bubble!

    All human behavior consist of patterns. You would know if you have appropriate education.

    Patterns could be simple, or very complex. Patterns is what let us use our experience.

    Patterns is what science based on. Patterns is what let us make some rules to follow.

    You are probably not very good at chess, or you would understand the nature of challenge.

    AI is not going to be design to make logical leaps, or what we have humans for?

  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd Member UncommonPosts: 1,668
    Originally posted by kkarrabbass
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Chess is pattern based, it's right down the street of ai, humans do the unpredictable due to a mix of emotions and rote and skill and logical leaps - that ai can't do yet, 1 day though we will be ganked by an ai :p

    All unpredictable things humans do work against those humans. Strict following plan is most efficient way to achieve any goal. It is only in movies human emotions win. What else could you expect from movies made by humans? Humans like to glorify their imperfections. Sorry for bursting your romantic bubble!

    All human behavior consist of patterns. You would know if you have appropriate education.

    Patterns could be simple, or very complex. Patterns is what let us use our experience.

    Patterns is what science based on. Patterns is what let us make some rules to follow.

    You are probably not very good at chess, or you would understand the nature of challenge.

    AI is not going to be design to make logical leaps, or what we have humans for?

    Armies for centuries have been trained using these patterns. Even with a slight % of ingenuity being the cause for a victory the majority of battles follow certain strategies and patterns. I agree.

  • NotimeforbsNotimeforbs Member CommonPosts: 346

    Simple:

    AI has no choice but to be what it is programmed to be.  People have the choice to be complete dicks about everything.  And... they often make that choice.

  • MarkusrindMarkusrind Member Posts: 359

    Great AI...

     

    Will not be called Drizzt or Legolaaas.

    Will not use leet speak

    Will stay in character and remain believable for the gameworld

    Will do things according to 'who' they are and not do things 'because it is a game'

    Will have a backstory and reason for being in the world

    Will not be rude when you a - talk to them, b - win or lose a fight to them, c - look at them funny

    Will not log out when losing a fight, call their friends, then log back in to gang up on you and then rejoice in their PvP skiilz

    Will not hold a grudge between characters and log back in with their max level character to get you back for winning a fair fight

    ...

     

     

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Originally posted by bcbully

    It's combat right?

     

    Why would a person ask for great AI to combat, but refuse to engage in combat with a player? 

     

    I'm no psychologist, so could some one please explain this mindset? 

     

     

    Would  a smart AI ask this question?

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  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,175
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by bcbully

    It's combat right?

     

    Why would a person ask for great AI to combat, but refuse to engage in combat with a player? 

     

    I'm no psychologist, so could some one please explain this mindset? 

     

     

    The reality is, there will never be a great AI in games, because AI is programmed to lose by default, while players on the other hand want to win be default.

     

     Your point is invalid. Go play UT2k4 and play against the hardest difficulty bot and tell me if it's programmed to lose to you.

    UT2k4 is not an MMO. single-player games and singleplayer modes are contradicting what MMOexposed wrote, because they are not designed to be farmed for progression but to be the challenge. 

     This thread isn't about MMOs specifically. It's a thread about A.I. my point still stands.

    so...why would a player ask for great AI but refuse to engage in combat with a player based on your point?

     

     

    image

  • HolophonistHolophonist Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Originally posted by RaSungod
    Originally posted by Holophonist

    I haven't been following this thread but first of all I've never played against an AI that played like another player.

     

    Second, I care more about the politics and reputation that come along with pvp. I want there to be good guys, bad guys, mercenaries, thieves, etc. I want stories.

     

    If we're talking about relatively meaningfull arenas or battlegrounds, I would not care if I were playing against an AI that was perfectly programmed to play like a human.

    Agreed and I'll add that having to look over your shoulder regularly on an open PvP server adds a ton to immersion for me, the same way playing a game like Battlefield 4 does. The threat of danger from intelligent opponents just adds so much to the game for me.

    When was the last time we even had an MMO with PvE mobs we really had to worry about?  Most of the time you can run away from them or kite them.  I miss games where you had to go into areas with a group of friends, and even then if you pulled the wrong mobs, or walked into the wrong spot, you could all be wiped. However, if you were careful and put up a great fight, you could have an insane blast that lasted.

    Yeah it seems so many games are struggling with this problem of how to innovate pve and make it more fun and exciting. I prefer the sandbox game that just accepts the fact that pve is really hard to make challenging and engaging in an MMO, so the challenge and excitement comes from your surroundings, like in the form of open world pvp. UO and DFUW both do (did) this well.

  • ComafComaf Member UncommonPosts: 1,150
    Originally posted by bcbully

    It's combat right?

     

    Why would a person ask for great AI to combat, but refuse to engage in combat with a player? 

     

    I'm no psychologist, so could some one please explain this mindset? 

     

     

    No one feels as affected by a loss to an AI image.  Personally, if all mmorpgs became AI only, I'd never play again - at least not until the AI really was advanced enough to where I couldn't tell the difference (i.e., not in this lifetime).

     

    On the adverse, beating a human player (if the playing field is leveled or if advantage is forcibly created), is exciting, plain and simple, exciting.

     

    Nearly every mmorpg I've played has massed or single "pro" level or advantaged players of higher level bottom feeding off of those who are leveling and or not massed.  That's the reality that causes so many folks to hate pvp.

     

    I say: Hate the limited imagination of the developer, not the player.  It is the developer that creates a world (i.e., it's your world, man, we only live in it) that we level in.

    image
  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member UncommonPosts: 3,145
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by bcbully

    It's combat right?

     

    Why would a person ask for great AI to combat, but refuse to engage in combat with a player? 

     

    I'm no psychologist, so could some one please explain this mindset? 

     

     

    The reality is, there will never be a great AI in games, because AI is programmed to lose by default, while players on the other hand want to win be default.

     

     Your point is invalid. Go play UT2k4 and play against the hardest difficulty bot and tell me if it's programmed to lose to you.

    UT2k4 is not an MMO. single-player games and singleplayer modes are contradicting what MMOexposed wrote, because they are not designed to be farmed for progression but to be the challenge. 

     This thread isn't about MMOs specifically. It's a thread about A.I. my point still stands.

    so...why would a player ask for great AI but refuse to engage in combat with a player based on your point?

     

     

     That comes down to different things. Do current games still have the same level of standards of A.I. as they did back then?  I don't typically see it. the A.I.'s "intelligence" in my opinion has become worse of over the years (in gaming at least).

     The challenge isn't there anymore against modern bots. I might be wrong; there might be an FPS for example that is indeed harder than older ones. But, I believe people look for a challenge and since most games don't have that challenging A.I. in comparison I can see why they might play with other people instead.

     Another thing could be the socialization aspect. Whether it's to have fun competitive match against friends or completely trash talk random people. We all know bots aren't sentient so there's no socialization with them. 

     My guess would be the second of the two reasons I've given. I believe people like socialization and you can't do that with A.I.

     A.I. is only as intelligent as it's creator(s).

     

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd Member UncommonPosts: 1,668
    Originally posted by RaSungod
    Originally posted by whisperwynd
    Originally posted by kkarrabbass
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Chess is pattern based, it's right down the street of ai, humans do the unpredictable due to a mix of emotions and rote and skill and logical leaps - that ai can't do yet, 1 day though we will be ganked by an ai :p

    All unpredictable things humans do work against those humans. Strict following plan is most efficient way to achieve any goal. It is only in movies human emotions win. What else could you expect from movies made by humans? Humans like to glorify their imperfections. Sorry for bursting your romantic bubble!

    All human behavior consist of patterns. You would know if you have appropriate education.

    Patterns could be simple, or very complex. Patterns is what let us use our experience.

    Patterns is what science based on. Patterns is what let us make some rules to follow.

    You are probably not very good at chess, or you would understand the nature of challenge.

    AI is not going to be design to make logical leaps, or what we have humans for?

    Armies for centuries have been trained using these patterns. Even with a slight % of ingenuity being the cause for a victory the majority of battles follow certain strategies and patterns. I agree.

    The underdog has also done a lot of winning in human history, often defeating far superior forces who have too much structure to do anything about  the nature of a much smaller, free form opponent. 

    That's the small % I spoke of and that's also because a great commander knows the tactics of his enemy. I sincerely doubt many a victory has been won by randomly doing stuff other than their training instilled in them.

  • Darknessguy64Darknessguy64 Member Posts: 233

    The difference is the AI will be there for a rematch. The player will be gone unless the fight is in his favor.

  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd Member UncommonPosts: 1,668
    Originally posted by RaSungod
    Originally posted by whisperwynd
    Originally posted by RaSungod
    Originally posted by whisperwynd
    Originally posted by kkarrabbass
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Chess is pattern based, it's right down the street of ai, humans do the unpredictable due to a mix of emotions and rote and skill and logical leaps - that ai can't do yet, 1 day though we will be ganked by an ai :p

    All unpredictable things humans do work against those humans. Strict following plan is most efficient way to achieve any goal. It is only in movies human emotions win. What else could you expect from movies made by humans? Humans like to glorify their imperfections. Sorry for bursting your romantic bubble!

    All human behavior consist of patterns. You would know if you have appropriate education.

    Patterns could be simple, or very complex. Patterns is what let us use our experience.

    Patterns is what science based on. Patterns is what let us make some rules to follow.

    You are probably not very good at chess, or you would understand the nature of challenge.

    AI is not going to be design to make logical leaps, or what we have humans for?

    Armies for centuries have been trained using these patterns. Even with a slight % of ingenuity being the cause for a victory the majority of battles follow certain strategies and patterns. I agree.

    The underdog has also done a lot of winning in human history, often defeating far superior forces who have too much structure to do anything about  the nature of a much smaller, free form opponent. 

    That's the small % I spoke of and that's also because a great commander knows the tactics of his enemy. I sincerely doubt many a victory has been won by randomly doing stuff other than their training instilled in them.

    I'm not even sure where this discussion is headed.  I defeat people on game servers all the time by being as unpredictable as possible or by being purposely misleading, and it serves me very well.  I certainly don't go in with a plan.

    Yeah the tangent is getting wider and wider, I was quoting how AI and warfare have patterns that can be blended and it turned into something else. image  Carry on

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    Originally posted by Madimorga
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Madimorga
    Originally posted by McJer84
    The correct answer to your questions is predictable actions. NPCs will react in a fixed way to any given thing as where a player will adapt and innovate.

     

    Too bad 'innovate' often means 'loses fair fight, brings high level friends to help win next fight'.  

     

    The reason people win against AI now is because that is how the AI is designed.  The players are supposed to win.  Certainly they may have to go through a specific sequence, solve the combat-dance puzzle, but AI is made to be beaten.  Even in games like Dark Souls, there is meant to be a winner, and that winner is meant to be the player.

     

    We are already to the point where the AI in network games must be gimped in order to allow players to win.  This wasn't always the case.  In the past, the AI had to cheat just to break even.  As in break the rules cheat, not just have inflated hit points and the like.  It's not like this any longer.  Reduction of network latency, AI complexity and computing power have all well surpassed what is necessary to build an AI that can win the simplistic fights available in video games.

     

    People seem to forget that computer AI are created by people.  If someone was set a task to create an AI with the purpose of defeating any and all human competitors in a fair fight, that is exactly what would happen.  Even there the AI would have to be gimped to account for the 100 millisecond fastest possible human reaction time* or the fights wouldn't be anywhere close to fair.  You know what the human response would be?  Exactly what @Madimorga said, stack the odds with more players versus the AI. 

     

    * Time it takes you and any other human to pull your finger off of a hot stove.

     

    **

     

    Wow.  I went way off topic.  Another post up there answered the question though.  The AI in a game exists for the player to win, because it's a game.  The idea is to offer enough challenge to be fun, without being a d!ck about it.

     

     

    So what you're saying is, devs could have mobs go get their high level friends to come back for some sweet revenge, too.  

     

    Yes, yes they could.

     

    But I still wouldn't find it half as annoying as when a person does it!

     

    I hate to say it, but you're probably right.  I'm sure some people would find that annoying, but it's certainly within the realm of the possible. 

     

    I'm playing A Bard's Tale on my tablet right now, and there are packs of wolves where if they are losing, one of them will run off and try to get help, which is more wolves.  They aren't higher level wolves, but there's no reason they couldn't be.  So not only is it possible, it's something that could have been done since at least 2004 when ABT was originally written.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • NIIINIII Member UncommonPosts: 113
    One is of myth.
  • MMOman101MMOman101 Member UncommonPosts: 1,703

    AI is meant to be beaten, under a specific set of circumstances.  AI can be set to the challenge that you want.  AI is competiion against your self.

    PvP is competition against another person.  PvP is not a place you can choose your own difficulty.  PvP can be unbalanced, where there is no change to win. 

    Anyone who thinks AI cannot be created to destroy players with equal resources is a clown.  AI is not build for that, it would not be fun.

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