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How would you react to these features in an MMO?

- Replacing grinding with a procedurally generated environment with lots of walking. The game will have lots of dynamic events and many sandbox elements in place that you can do along the way, as well as procedurally generating stuff that makes you have to tactically approach. Essentially the landscape will be MASSIVE, and there will be a lot of walking (days, weeks, etc) to draw out gameplay which is essentially what grinding does.

- Action combat based on combo's- I.E. say you have basic "building block" abilities on your hotbar, kick, punch, dodge, etc, and when used together form combo attacks. Potentially an infinite amount of attacks in this way.

- Open world PvP, however with an optional toggle that requires the person to "pay into" a faction with a number of resources to get this temporary status. The cost will be hefty so as to make sure that only people really willing to impede their progress if they do it continuously. 

- The above would be one server type, another would be a server with much enhanced and much more dangerous PvE. Not so much health and damage wise but more in terms of how well the A.I. reacts. This will come with little to no PvP, although a switch similar to WoW may be provided.

- An optional server type where "survivalism" is enabled as well as many skill lines for survivalism from detailed and general ones to basic damage/debuff modifier skill lines like "cold water swimming endurance" and such. 

- The difficulty of the area being determined by how far the server has explored the area around the center where everybody starts. Farther out will become increasingly more difficult until it becomes an impenetrable wall of difficulty until earlier areas are fully explored, while as more is explored, areas closer to the center become easier and the resources from them get more abundant. Essentially a "tier" system but one procedurally generated and influenced by the overall servers dedication.

-Non-static monster spawns. Monsters roam around their "biome", similar to Minecraft, and in fact actively seek players and other monsters they may be of "enemy factions" so you'd be able to see, say, and orc fighting an elf before the orc kills the elf and turns on you. Part of surviving farther away from the center would involve trying to make yourself the least noticeable, and having more people in those parts would in fact draw an exponential increase of monster meaning that the farther out you go, the more solo-friendly it gets.

- Being the first to do a dungeon or raid guarantees your group will get every possible drop, including one-of-a-kind unique items that increase in stats with the progression of the server. Also any member of the server first to do a dungeon or raid will be able to sell the "memories" of it in some fashion so that others can do the dungeon. Dungeons do not respawn their NPC's in the actual physical world and once done can only be repeated in that memory system. But they can spawn entirely new opponents.

- Little to no initial customization. One predefined race (not human), and your body type is randomly generated however will fall within a medium. Customization would be done later by actually doing things that would make you look a certain way; i.e. toggle-able dynamic hair growth, muscle increase from strength related activities, etc.

- Uncapped preparation benefits. For example, one could sharpen a sword before combat in a quick animation, and it might get a +3% boost in damage. Say if this person does it for 15 minutes in a short mini-game like thing, it might get a 10% boost. The longer the person does it, the more of a boost it gets, but the smaller the boost gets. 30 minutes might be 15%, an hour 16%, etc. It'll get smaller and smaller but never stop. The same for cooking, brewing potions, etc.

- Destructible terrain, at least in the form of ground. This would/could be utilized for procedurally generated veins of ore and gems, and used to mark specific special locations like dungeon entrances, treasure, etc.

Alright that's it for now, I want everybody to be brutally honest about these ideas but if you can leave some feedback that'd be great too

Comments

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by avatarair

    - Replacing grinding with a procedurally generated environment with lots of walking. The game will have lots of dynamic events and many sandbox elements in place that you can do along the way, as well as procedurally generating stuff that makes you have to tactically approach. Essentially the landscape will be MASSIVE, and there will be a lot of walking (days, weeks, etc) to draw out gameplay which is essentially what grinding does.

    Pass .. i don't play games to walk.

    - Action combat based on combo's- I.E. say you have basic "building block" abilities on your hotbar, kick, punch, dodge, etc, and when used together form combo attacks. Potentially an infinite amount of attacks in this way.

    Too much like a fighting game. I like skill-based action combat like that in ARPGs.

    - Open world PvP, however with an optional toggle that requires the person to "pay into" a faction with a number of resources to get this temporary status. The cost will be hefty so as to make sure that only people really willing to impede their progress if they do it continuously. 

    Pass .. i don't want pvp to mix with pve .. and  ideally both should be in instances.

    - The above would be one server type, another would be a server with much enhanced and much more dangerous PvE. Not so much health and damage wise but more in terms of how well the A.I. reacts. This will come with little to no PvP, although a switch similar to WoW may be provided.

    Basically this is a difficulty option through server choice. I prefer the difficulty option not to be fixed and can be changed as my mood or gear change.

    - An optional server type where "survivalism" is enabled as well as many skill lines for survivalism from detailed and general ones to basic damage/debuff modifier skill lines like "cold water swimming endurance" and such. 

    Pass .. i don't play survival games.

    - The difficulty of the area being determined by how far the server has explored the area around the center where everybody starts. Farther out will become increasingly more difficult until it becomes an impenetrable wall of difficulty until earlier areas are fully explored, while as more is explored, areas closer to the center become easier and the resources from them get more abundant. Essentially a "tier" system but one procedurally generated and influenced by the overall servers dedication.

    Better to just have a difficulty slider.

    -Non-static monster spawns. Monsters roam around their "biome", similar to Minecraft, and in fact actively seek players and other monsters they may be of "enemy factions" so you'd be able to see, say, and orc fighting an elf before the orc kills the elf and turns on you. Part of surviving farther away from the center would involve trying to make yourself the least noticeable, and having more people in those parts would in fact draw an exponential increase of monster meaning that the farther out you go, the more solo-friendly it gets.

    This is fine.

    - Being the first to do a dungeon or raid guarantees your group will get every possible drop, including one-of-a-kind unique items that increase in stats with the progression of the server. Also any member of the server first to do a dungeon or raid will be able to sell the "memories" of it in some fashion so that others can do the dungeon. Dungeons do not respawn their NPC's in the actual physical world and once done can only be repeated in that memory system. But they can spawn entirely new opponents.

    nah .. unless the game is so unpopular that you only have like 20 players ... otherwise, most players are going to be locked out of the good stuff.

    - Little to no initial customization. One predefined race (not human), and your body type is randomly generated however will fall within a medium. Customization would be done later by actually doing things that would make you look a certain way; i.e. toggle-able dynamic hair growth, muscle increase from strength related activities, etc.

    This is fine.

    - Uncapped preparation benefits. For example, one could sharpen a sword before combat in a quick animation, and it might get a +3% boost in damage. Say if this person does it for 15 minutes in a short mini-game like thing, it might get a 10% boost. The longer the person does it, the more of a boost it gets, but the smaller the boost gets. 30 minutes might be 15%, an hour 16%, etc. It'll get smaller and smaller but never stop. The same for cooking, brewing potions, etc.

    30 min for a mini game? I will pass.

    - Destructible terrain, at least in the form of ground. This would/could be utilized for procedurally generated veins of ore and gems, and used to mark specific special locations like dungeon entrances, treasure, etc.

    This can be bad if players try to grief others by changing the terrain .. say blocking entrance to a town.

     

  • apocolusterapocoluster Member UncommonPosts: 1,326
    Uh pass

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • KuinnKuinn Member UncommonPosts: 2,072
    Originally posted by avatarair

    - Replacing grinding with a procedurally generated environment with lots of walking. The game will have lots of dynamic events and many sandbox elements in place that you can do along the way, as well as procedurally generating stuff that makes you have to tactically approach. Essentially the landscape will be MASSIVE, and there will be a lot of walking (days, weeks, etc) to draw out gameplay which is essentially what grinding does.

    I do want a huge massive world, but it should not be monotone borefest, there has to be interesting locations at a reasonable pace. Also there has to be content other than walking at reasonable pace.

    - Action combat based on combo's- I.E. say you have basic "building block" abilities on your hotbar, kick, punch, dodge, etc, and when used together form combo attacks. Potentially an infinite amount of attacks in this way.

    Cant say I want to see a combo combat after playing conan. It was extremely tiresome and unfun system, which made me roll a caster, not to quit the game on my first day. Combos using the same ability repeatedly is fine, or simple combos like primer ability -> ignite ability.

    I have grown to love more and more 1st person or 3rd person action/shooter style these days, but more traditional RPG combat mechanics are still fine too.

    - Open world PvP, however with an optional toggle that requires the person to "pay into" a faction with a number of resources to get this temporary status. The cost will be hefty so as to make sure that only people really willing to impede their progress if they do it continuously. 

    Not sure what this means in practise.

    - The above would be one server type, another would be a server with much enhanced and much more dangerous PvE. Not so much health and damage wise but more in terms of how well the A.I. reacts. This will come with little to no PvP, although a switch similar to WoW may be provided.

    Better AI yes please, I'm tired of autoattack enemies in mmorpgs.

    - An optional server type where "survivalism" is enabled as well as many skill lines for survivalism from detailed and general ones to basic damage/debuff modifier skill lines like "cold water swimming endurance" and such. 

    I'd rather see a well made game with pvp and pve (or less pvp) server types. If the survival system is good, why not have it in the core game?

    - The difficulty of the area being determined by how far the server has explored the area around the center where everybody starts. Farther out will become increasingly more difficult until it becomes an impenetrable wall of difficulty until earlier areas are fully explored, while as more is explored, areas closer to the center become easier and the resources from them get more abundant. Essentially a "tier" system but one procedurally generated and influenced by the overall servers dedication.

    Sure, just dont gate anything by artificial power levels like common themeparks do, but rather with difficulty. A slight gear check is fine too. Also some epic places could have requirements like "wear amulet of blahblah to gain entry" and getting that amulet would be a test in itself.

    -Non-static monster spawns. Monsters roam around their "biome", similar to Minecraft, and in fact actively seek players and other monsters they may be of "enemy factions" so you'd be able to see, say, and orc fighting an elf before the orc kills the elf and turns on you. Part of surviving farther away from the center would involve trying to make yourself the least noticeable, and having more people in those parts would in fact draw an exponential increase of monster meaning that the farther out you go, the more solo-friendly it gets.

    Yes please. There should be however static locations like bear dens and bandit caves/camps etc. Though bandits could change camp location every now and then.

    - Being the first to do a dungeon or raid guarantees your group will get every possible drop, including one-of-a-kind unique items that increase in stats with the progression of the server. Also any member of the server first to do a dungeon or raid will be able to sell the "memories" of it in some fashion so that others can do the dungeon. Dungeons do not respawn their NPC's in the actual physical world and once done can only be repeated in that memory system. But they can spawn entirely new opponents.

    I dont know, what ever, I guess? I'm more concerned with the open world. Truly unique items sounds like a good idea, something truly valuable and unique to have in multiplayer games is always nice.

    - Little to no initial customization. One predefined race (not human), and your body type is randomly generated however will fall within a medium. Customization would be done later by actually doing things that would make you look a certain way; i.e. toggle-able dynamic hair growth, muscle increase from strength related activities, etc.

    Must have character creator. If a game randomly generates me a character, I would not play it no matter how good it is. I like the muscle increase for str related stuff, and other features like that, but the game must have initial char creator. If my character gets fat later for eating too much pork that's fine, but I will not start a game with random generated char.

    - Uncapped preparation benefits. For example, one could sharpen a sword before combat in a quick animation, and it might get a +3% boost in damage. Say if this person does it for 15 minutes in a short mini-game like thing, it might get a 10% boost. The longer the person does it, the more of a boost it gets, but the smaller the boost gets. 30 minutes might be 15%, an hour 16%, etc. It'll get smaller and smaller but never stop. The same for cooking, brewing potions, etc.

    Sounds way too cumbersome. More like 24h "keen" buff on a sword for 3 minutes sharpening. It must be some pretty epic and long lasting (many days) buff if I'm going to spend 30 minutes casting it, or worse yet 30 minutes minigaming it into my maul :D

    - Destructible terrain, at least in the form of ground. This would/could be utilized for procedurally generated veins of ore and gems, and used to mark specific special locations like dungeon entrances, treasure, etc.

    I always dreamed of mmorpg with destructible terrain, but it has to reset somehow, otherwise people will destroy and shit everything in the first week and then we live in a waste land for the rest of eternity. People like to randomly smash EVERYTHING in games, so it must recover somehow.

    Alright that's it for now, I want everybody to be brutally honest about these ideas but if you can leave some feedback that'd be great too

    No leveling in traditional sense please. Make power increases to come as gear and as abilities, instead of silly passive power gains which makes your char like a demigod just because, like themeparks have it currently. I would absolutely love a mmorpg where experience gains would count only towards more abilities and such, better armor proficiencies and so forth. More customization for abilities and weapons.

    But no passive power levels, a stupid system that separates player base from eachothers and also from zones that they have leveled past, making most of the open world in mmorpgs meaningless because it's "low level zone" - base health should always be the same, unless you do endurance heavy activities a lot, but on top of that you could have physical or magical armors. The better they would be, the less the maximum bonus would be so that no one could come way too OP.

    Make me that and my money is yours in large amounts.

     

  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,536
    Originally posted by avatarair

    - Replacing grinding with a procedurally generated environment with lots of walking. The game will have lots of dynamic events and many sandbox elements in place that you can do along the way, as well as procedurally generating stuff that makes you have to tactically approach. Essentially the landscape will be MASSIVE, and there will be a lot of walking (days, weeks, etc) to draw out gameplay which is essentially what grinding does.

    Then walking would be new grinding, and it's even more boring than grinding mobs. And forming groups with friends would require so much effort it would one of the worst gaming mechanisms ever.

    - Action combat based on combo's- I.E. say you have basic "building block" abilities on your hotbar, kick, punch, dodge, etc, and when used together form combo attacks. Potentially an infinite amount of attacks in this way.

    That kind of system would be really hard to do well in an MMO environment with all the lag, and I think the potential audience who wants this kind of combat in MMO style world is really small.

    - Open world PvP, however with an optional toggle that requires the person to "pay into" a faction with a number of resources to get this temporary status. The cost will be hefty so as to make sure that only people really willing to impede their progress if they do it continuously. 

    Could you clarify what you mean? Paying for the priviledge of attacking other players in open world? Or paying for faction to get immunity from attackers? Or something other?

    - The above would be one server type, another would be a server with much enhanced and much more dangerous PvE. Not so much health and damage wise but more in terms of how well the A.I. reacts. This will come with little to no PvP, although a switch similar to WoW may be provided.

    This would likely cause a huge imbalance since you're talking about server advancement. Then easymode -server would progress through content more quickly.

    - An optional server type where "survivalism" is enabled as well as many skill lines for survivalism from detailed and general ones to basic damage/debuff modifier skill lines like "cold water swimming endurance" and such. 

    Too many server types.

    - The difficulty of the area being determined by how far the server has explored the area around the center where everybody starts. Farther out will become increasingly more difficult until it becomes an impenetrable wall of difficulty until earlier areas are fully explored, while as more is explored, areas closer to the center become easier and the resources from them get more abundant. Essentially a "tier" system but one procedurally generated and influenced by the overall servers dedication.

    What does one need to do to explore? Walk more? Daily quest grind? Why does exploring early level areas affect the difficulty of other areas anyway? It makes sense that the area being explored changes, but it doesn't make sense that it has so large impact on other areas.

    -Non-static monster spawns. Monsters roam around their "biome", similar to Minecraft, and in fact actively seek players and other monsters they may be of "enemy factions" so you'd be able to see, say, and orc fighting an elf before the orc kills the elf and turns on you. Part of surviving farther away from the center would involve trying to make yourself the least noticeable, and having more people in those parts would in fact draw an exponential increase of monster meaning that the farther out you go, the more solo-friendly it gets.

    You just told that the farther people go, the more dangerous it gets. Having the most dangerous content tackled solo -only due to monster attention makes little sense. Are you trying to create an MMO that encourages elite players to solo -walk so far away they won't ever see another player during the whole game.

    - Being the first to do a dungeon or raid guarantees your group will get every possible drop, including one-of-a-kind unique items that increase in stats with the progression of the server. Also any member of the server first to do a dungeon or raid will be able to sell the "memories" of it in some fashion so that others can do the dungeon. Dungeons do not respawn their NPC's in the actual physical world and once done can only be repeated in that memory system. But they can spawn entirely new opponents.

    Unique item sounds cool, but about the memory system: Do top-end players really need another money automat to give them further advantage over regular players?

    - Little to no initial customization. One predefined race (not human), and your body type is randomly generated however will fall within a medium. Customization would be done later by actually doing things that would make you look a certain way; i.e. toggle-able dynamic hair growth, muscle increase from strength related activities, etc.

    So all fighters should be muscular guys and wizards lean guys? I think people should be allowed to freely customize their character and be unique, and making a mechanisms that prevents it would be bad idea.

    - Uncapped preparation benefits. For example, one could sharpen a sword before combat in a quick animation, and it might get a +3% boost in damage. Say if this person does it for 15 minutes in a short mini-game like thing, it might get a 10% boost. The longer the person does it, the more of a boost it gets, but the smaller the boost gets. 30 minutes might be 15%, an hour 16%, etc. It'll get smaller and smaller but never stop. The same for cooking, brewing potions, etc.

    It's my honest opinion, that game mechanisms should reward playing. This one rewards watching a movie while your character is preparing for something. Or think about top-end raid: A whole guild coordinating about going AFK for a couple of hours.

    - Destructible terrain, at least in the form of ground. This would/could be utilized for procedurally generated veins of ore and gems, and used to mark specific special locations like dungeon entrances, treasure, etc.

    Good idea if you use procedural world. Normally I'd also suggest housing and terraforming, but due to walking times a housing might be bad idea: Too much grinding to visit your house.

     

     
  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985

    One of those server type will end up getting the lion's share of development effort, while the others will be neglected afterthoughts, or get discontinued completely.  The only time an alternate server type gets plenty of development attention is when it's being modded from the original by a different team.

    Personally I'd rather grind than walk, as long as the grinding takes the form of something that doesn't get deadly boring really quickly.  Sim plant tending or other crafting, a good minigame, or tactical combat can all keep me entertained for many hours even though I'm aware they are basically grinding.  Fighter/arcade style combat isn't bad, but putting the elements on a spellbar is kind of strange.  Unless it's like Ryzom, where you can build combos of moves in the game's GUI and then activate the whole combo by pushing one button.  But really, when I play arcade-style combat, whether that's Vindictus or Tokyo Jungle or the Okami series or what, I play it because I enjoy the fact that it's about reactions and instincts, not math and planning.

    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • AeonbladesAeonblades Member Posts: 2,083
    Originally posted by avatarair

    - Replacing grinding with a procedurally generated environment with lots of walking. The game will have lots of dynamic events and many sandbox elements in place that you can do along the way, as well as procedurally generating stuff that makes you have to tactically approach. Essentially the landscape will be MASSIVE, and there will be a lot of walking (days, weeks, etc) to draw out gameplay which is essentially what grinding does.

    No

    - Action combat based on combo's- I.E. say you have basic "building block" abilities on your hotbar, kick, punch, dodge, etc, and when used together form combo attacks. Potentially an infinite amount of attacks in this way.

    Maybe, I kind of like it.

    - Open world PvP, however with an optional toggle that requires the person to "pay into" a faction with a number of resources to get this temporary status. The cost will be hefty so as to make sure that only people really willing to impede their progress if they do it continuously. 

    No

    - The above would be one server type, another would be a server with much enhanced and much more dangerous PvE. Not so much health and damage wise but more in terms of how well the A.I. reacts. This will come with little to no PvP, although a switch similar to WoW may be provided.

    Maybe, would have to see how it actually worked

    - An optional server type where "survivalism" is enabled as well as many skill lines for survivalism from detailed and general ones to basic damage/debuff modifier skill lines like "cold water swimming endurance" and such. 

    No

    - The difficulty of the area being determined by how far the server has explored the area around the center where everybody starts. Farther out will become increasingly more difficult until it becomes an impenetrable wall of difficulty until earlier areas are fully explored, while as more is explored, areas closer to the center become easier and the resources from them get more abundant. Essentially a "tier" system but one procedurally generated and influenced by the overall servers dedication.

    Cool idea, I'm down for this

    -Non-static monster spawns. Monsters roam around their "biome", similar to Minecraft, and in fact actively seek players and other monsters they may be of "enemy factions" so you'd be able to see, say, and orc fighting an elf before the orc kills the elf and turns on you. Part of surviving farther away from the center would involve trying to make yourself the least noticeable, and having more people in those parts would in fact draw an exponential increase of monster meaning that the farther out you go, the more solo-friendly it gets.

    Eh, no

    - Being the first to do a dungeon or raid guarantees your group will get every possible drop, including one-of-a-kind unique items that increase in stats with the progression of the server. Also any member of the server first to do a dungeon or raid will be able to sell the "memories" of it in some fashion so that others can do the dungeon. Dungeons do not respawn their NPC's in the actual physical world and once done can only be repeated in that memory system. But they can spawn entirely new opponents.

    No

    - Little to no initial customization. One predefined race (not human), and your body type is randomly generated however will fall within a medium. Customization would be done later by actually doing things that would make you look a certain way; i.e. toggle-able dynamic hair growth, muscle increase from strength related activities, etc.

    No

    - Uncapped preparation benefits. For example, one could sharpen a sword before combat in a quick animation, and it might get a +3% boost in damage. Say if this person does it for 15 minutes in a short mini-game like thing, it might get a 10% boost. The longer the person does it, the more of a boost it gets, but the smaller the boost gets. 30 minutes might be 15%, an hour 16%, etc. It'll get smaller and smaller but never stop. The same for cooking, brewing potions, etc.

    No

    - Destructible terrain, at least in the form of ground. This would/could be utilized for procedurally generated veins of ore and gems, and used to mark specific special locations like dungeon entrances, treasure, etc.

    Yes, it's already been done and it works

    Alright that's it for now, I want everybody to be brutally honest about these ideas but if you can leave some feedback that'd be great too

    A few decent ideas in here, but overall, I would not play this game.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985


    Originally posted by avatarair - Little to no initial customization. One predefined race
     
    I do like this little part. But random avatars = EW and the proposed method of customization within the game also = EW; I really didn't like the way that worked in Fable. People should be able to have complete control over what they transform their avatar into if they put the work into unlocking the different steps of the transformation, then activating them. For example, to unlock a tattoo pattern you would have to complete a particular dungeon or quest, and to actually get the tattoo on your avatar you would have to craft dye in the colors needed or buy it from another player.


    Originally posted by avatarair Say if this person does it for 15 minutes in a short mini-game like thing, it might get a 10% boost.
    Again, I like this little part. But it should be impossible to play the minigame forever; a minigame should never last more than an hour, and more than a half hour is pushing it. Also the bonus should be applied only once, when the item is crafted or enchanted after crafting but before use.
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • imsoenthusedimsoenthused Member UncommonPosts: 65


    Originally posted by avatarair - Replacing grinding with a procedurally generated environment with lots of walking. The game will have lots of dynamic events and many sandbox elements in place that you can do along the way, as well as procedurally generating stuff that makes you have to tactically approach. Essentially the landscape will be MASSIVE, and there will be a lot of walking (days, weeks, etc) to draw out gameplay which is essentially what grinding does.
     Procedural environments, yes. Lots of walking, no. I straight up don't want to grind, and don't give a crap about anyone who does.

    Originally posted by avatarair - Action combat based on combo's- I.E. say you have basic "building block" abilities on your hotbar, kick, punch, dodge, etc, and when used together form combo attacks. Potentially an infinite amount of attacks in this way.
    Not sure exactly what you mean, but I do love action combat. Even though nobody's really gotten it right in a real MMORPG yet. I'm eagerly awaiting Mabinogi 2 in the hopes that they are blatantly stealing Vidictus's combat. In spite of its horrible p2w enchant system, I still think Vindictus has the best combat system around. 

    Originally posted by avatarair - Open world PvP, however with an optional toggle that requires the person to "pay into" a faction with a number of resources to get this temporary status. The cost will be hefty so as to make sure that only people really willing to impede their progress if they do it continuously. 
    PvP needs to either be seperate, or have really horrible consequences in place for "bad" PvP and be completely open. I'm fine with seperate, because I have yet to see a developer actually keep ganking morons in their place. 

    Originally posted by avatarair - The above would be one server type, another would be a server with much enhanced and much more dangerous PvE. Not so much health and damage wise but more in terms of how well the A.I. reacts. This will come with little to no PvP, although a switch similar to WoW may be provided.
    No, the good A.I. should be used, everywhere. 

    Originally posted by avatarair - An optional server type where "survivalism" is enabled as well as many skill lines for survivalism from detailed and general ones to basic damage/debuff modifier skill lines like "cold water swimming endurance" and such. 
     Sounds like another empty server type, just like all the PvP servers. If it's good, and fun, it should be part of the core game. If it's tedious and boring you're really just wasting your time, no matter how much some minority might like it.

    Originally posted by avatarair - The difficulty of the area being determined by how far the server has explored the area around the center where everybody starts. Farther out will become increasingly more difficult until it becomes an impenetrable wall of difficulty until earlier areas are fully explored, while as more is explored, areas closer to the center become easier and the resources from them get more abundant. Essentially a "tier" system but one procedurally generated and influenced by the overall servers dedication.
     I'd prefer no artificial difficulty to be honest. How hard an area is should be a result of what monsters live or have wondered there.

    Originally posted by avatarair -Non-static monster spawns. Monsters roam around their "biome", similar to Minecraft, and in fact actively seek players and other monsters they may be of "enemy factions" so you'd be able to see, say, and orc fighting an elf before the orc kills the elf and turns on you. Part of surviving farther away from the center would involve trying to make yourself the least noticeable, and having more people in those parts would in fact draw an exponential increase of monster meaning that the farther out you go, the more solo-friendly it gets.
     Again, I don't want artificial difficulty. Absolutely non static monster spawns, that should be a given if your game is procedural. Some areas should just be hard, tough stuff lives there, some shouldn't.

    Originally posted by avatarair - Being the first to do a dungeon or raid guarantees your group will get every possible drop, including one-of-a-kind unique items that increase in stats with the progression of the server. Also any member of the server first to do a dungeon or raid will be able to sell the "memories" of it in some fashion so that others can do the dungeon. Dungeons do not respawn their NPC's in the actual physical world and once done can only be repeated in that memory system. But they can spawn entirely new opponents.
     The memory thing sounds ridiculous to me, and like it would a nightmare in reality. No thank you. Dungeons should simply be underground open world areas. Certain spawns would be drawn to caves, some would never leave them, some would come out at night to "hunt", etc. Bosses could be procedurally generated and actively seek areas that match their idea of a stronghold and begin spawning or drawing in related subordinate spawns. I don't want to see unique items with progression, because I think vertical progression is stupid.

    Originally posted by avatarair- Little to no initial customization. One predefined race (not human), and your body type is randomly generated however will fall within a medium. Customization would be done later by actually doing things that would make you look a certain way; i.e. toggle-able dynamic hair growth, muscle increase from strength related activities, etc.
     Nope, I love customization, and would not play your game. I'm fine with things changing later based on what I do, but I would pan your game and walk away if you gave me a random character.

    Originally posted by avatarair - Uncapped preparation benefits. For example, one could sharpen a sword before combat in a quick animation, and it might get a +3% boost in damage. Say if this person does it for 15 minutes in a short mini-game like thing, it might get a 10% boost. The longer the person does it, the more of a boost it gets, but the smaller the boost gets. 30 minutes might be 15%, an hour 16%, etc. It'll get smaller and smaller but never stop. The same for cooking, brewing potions, etc.
     Another thing that only a niche minority would enjoy. I wouldn't waste my time with it, unless you made it absolutely necessary, in which case I'd resent you for it.

    Originally posted by avatarair - Destructible terrain, at least in the form of ground. This would/could be utilized for procedurally generated veins of ore and gems, and used to mark specific special locations like dungeon entrances, treasure, etc.
    As long as you make it a very time consuming task for players. You don't want one bored guy leveling a mountain after all. A few thousand players leveling a mountain over a period of weeks or months is fine though. 

    Originally posted by avatarair Alright that's it for now, I want everybody to be brutally honest about these ideas but if you can leave some feedback that'd be great too

    Over all, too niche.

  • avatarairavatarair Member Posts: 58

    Ok thanks for the feedback so far everybody, if I could just get a little clarification on some of your responses...

     

    1- For the first question, the massive world as opposed to grinding, it's not looking so popular. The new" grinding- essentially my intention as there has to be some way to draw out gameplay. What if the landscape however was present with somewhat short randomly generated world bosses and dungeons as well (my intention from the get go)? Essentially similar to the open world TES or Fallout theme of a new place or thing to see along the way with deviations to the path encouraged?

    Or is it simply a no-go because distance seems like something negative? Would this be fixable if fast travel was allowed in moderation I.E. players can build temporary (and maybe even permanent but destructible) teleportation hubs with resources?

     

    2- For those concerned over the combo combat, what if it was more simplified into something more typical to themepark MMOs today but instead had a lot of potential combinations between skills? My goal here is to make it more skill-based, of course, and also give "skill" a lot more strength in combat than grinding your levels. 

     

    3- For clarification, yes, a person would pay into a faction (although these factions wouldn't be in direct conflict) so as to be temporarily saved from being attacked. However it would cost a lot of resources, potentially scaling with the players levels, so as to make this something you couldn't keep up forever unless you were very capable (and it would still hinder you regardless of your ability).

     

    4- The goal here is two-fold: to make NPC's as dangerous as players when in this advanced PvE world. Essentially it's less of a difficulty slider as compared to a "pick your poison" kind of setting. The difficulty slider would be how far you wanted to go outside of the center. the closer you are the easier it is to do pretty much everything but at the same time rewards are lessened.

     

    5- Is there any survival aspects you *would* like to see, perhaps nothing that detracts from your character but adds to it? For example staying cool in the desert gives you an overall buff, staying warm in cold places does the same, etc, making sure you eat at least semi-often the same. And how would you feel if this was added to all server types? Or should we just scrap this idea altogether?

     

    6- To explore, one would simply have to walk and survive. No daily grinds, essentially no locked areas (maybe only quest locations but those would likely be few in number because most quest locations we'd probably make them so that they can be unlocked whether or not somebody has the quest for them or not). I would like to avoid a difficulty slider for the game because it to me would kind of feel tacked on and a difficulty slider wouldn't really do much to keep the pacing of the world.

     

    7- It's essentially something that gives solo players an end-game. however all group sizes can encounter equal levels of difficulty and rewards. The biggest groups, for example, wouldn't go forward but rather down into raids for high level rewards, whereas smaller groups might go a little farther out and then do dungeons (raids int his area might will still be too difficult). Even smaller groups might roam even farther and take on smaller caves and camps and overworld mini world bosses. And solo players would go farthest so scrounge together what they can from the farthest away from the center. It would be balanced so that essentially every playstyle would be able to get gear and items about equally and powerful and no playstyle would be more rewarding or demanding than another.

     

    8- Rethinking this idea, what if a dungeon *is* repeatable at its location and the high level players aren't able to sell the memory, however the first run through will still guarantee all the drops and unique item? Unique items don't necessarily have to the best items, they'll be similar in quality to other weaponry but simply level with the tier of the world (either permanently or just for a time). 

     

    9- As for the character creator, how detailed would you like it to be initially? How would you feel if a backstory was provided? What if normal activities influenced your body type, but you could similarly do other activities to outweigh those effects? And perhaps a lock for your appearance? Or is this simply overcomplicating things? The goal here however is for a person to invest in their characters appearances similar to the way they might to their characters strength

     

    10- I get the disdain but the point here isn't for everybody to do something for 12 hours before a raid or whatever, it's to essentially say "don't just try to min max an encounter because you can keep on getting better indefinitely, take it on when you feel you're good enough". It's also there to help guilds and groups that feel they may need the extra leverage of a long times preparation to handle a particularly difficult encounter. Essentially natural prevention of brick walls of difficulty (this may conflict with the ideology of making places too distant and unexplored brick walls, but I feel that it's at least possible if that's the only brick wall we have to worry about).

    The mini-game itself would be similar to other time wasting games in RPGs, almost like gambling or whack a mole or target practice or whatever, some relevant activity that has the same sort of vibe. I imagine it'd feel a lot like some of those simple mobile games. However there will still be an instant application option which will in terms of time:effort ratio still be far superior to spending extra time.

     

    11- Destructible terrain would likely have some limits and would regenerate over time (erosion, etc) but it wouldn't be instantaneous either. If you dig a mine and then find all the ore down there and leave it it'll fill up in a few weeks. The rules would essentially prohibit digging too close to a town or a city. This is a complicated issue, and I don't just want to replace destructible terrain with pre-determined procedurally generated "plots" that can be dug to uncover something although that is one of the options at this point.

     

    ***EDIT: Yes, it would be very slowly destruction. The world itself would be particularly massive, and so would the terrain. Essentially a goal is to make you feel small among the bigger things in the world, very small.

     

    And the other stuff people briefly mentioned...

    The servers would each get the same development time because content besides what was mentioned here wouldn't be distinguished between them any further. The only unique developments that might be made would be balancing which would simply affect whatever server had something that was unbalanced., whether it be a overtly difficult A.I., an unbalanced player ability, or an aspect of survival that is just too cumbersome.

    No, there wouldn't be many passive increases like that in terms of health of mana, there will still be some however. Stamina for people who exercise a lot, mana for those use magic a lot, but as with everything else the amount a passive will increase is based on how far the world has been explored; as it gets higher, it gets harder to increase, and levelling from the bottom to the "medium" gets easier. A lot of the development would focus on making skill far more influential than passives and such. Adding options however is a good idea. The concept of counter play would feature heavily in the combat design.

  • ShrillyShrilly Member UncommonPosts: 421
    Are you an aspiring developer?
  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,196

    How i would react....

     

    By hooking up my computer to the TV... Pop a massive bowl of popcorn... Order a Pizza and some soda... Make sure i sit really comfy....

     

    Then i would visit the forums of said game... It would be the messiest version of forum PvP in a long long time. That game is set up to bring out the very worst in people from the get go...

     

    When i would be done laughing my arse off i would go back to doing something that at least on the surface look like sane... Like mining in EvE.

     

    As other have said you have some good embryos of gameplay elements but they need to but cultivated and shaped in to a more friendly form. EQ:N would be a good place for you to start if you like to explore some of your ideas further.

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    PASS...
  • avatarairavatarair Member Posts: 58
    Originally posted by Shrilly
    Are you an aspiring developer?

    I may be. I have a couple of friends and I ran into some cash, I'm also going for a degree in game design. So maybe a little more than may be.

     

  • VelifaxVelifax Member UncommonPosts: 413
    Originally posted by avatarair

    - Replacing grinding with a procedurally generated environment with lots of walking. The game will have lots of dynamic events and many sandbox elements in place that you can do along the way, as well as procedurally generating stuff that makes you have to tactically approach. Essentially the landscape will be MASSIVE, and there will be a lot of walking (days, weeks, etc) to draw out gameplay which is essentially what grinding does.

    I personally would much prefer this to mowing down hordes. As long as the environments were varied and high enough quality, I enjoy losing myself in, for example, forests between fights. If handled properly, this will be what brings me back again and again. Like Oblivion with more terrain. Travel should feel appropriate and shouldn't obviate any intervening terrain; horses are great, flying horses are not.

    - Action combat based on combo's- I.E. say you have basic "building block" abilities on your hotbar, kick, punch, dodge, etc, and when used together form combo attacks. Potentially an infinite amount of attacks in this way.

    The specifics of combat mechanics matter less to me than the "RPG-ness" of the combat. Combos would be fun, but if enemies die halfway through my second ability's cooldown, there is little "combat" to be had.

    - Open world PvP, however with an optional toggle that requires the person to "pay into" a faction with a number of resources to get this temporary status. The cost will be hefty so as to make sure that only people really willing to impede their progress if they do it continuously. 

    I would not play on this server.

    - The above would be one server type, another would be a server with much enhanced and much more dangerous PvE. Not so much health and damage wise but more in terms of how well the A.I. reacts. This will come with little to no PvP, although a switch similar to WoW may be provided.

    I'll play here, and would need the "enhance and more dangerous" pve to keep me playing. Game, not movie. The pre-combat preparation and performance should matter; don't get caught out alone and unprepared.

    - An optional server type where "survivalism" is enabled as well as many skill lines for survivalism from detailed and general ones to basic damage/debuff modifier skill lines like "cold water swimming endurance" and such. 

    I'd give this a try, but I don't have enough experience with survival games to comment.

    - The difficulty of the area being determined by how far the server has explored the area around the center where everybody starts. Farther out will become increasingly more difficult until it becomes an impenetrable wall of difficulty until earlier areas are fully explored, while as more is explored, areas closer to the center become easier and the resources from them get more abundant. Essentially a "tier" system but one procedurally generated and influenced by the overall servers dedication.

    I would love being able to choose my difficulty just by going somewhere else. Doesn't matter to me how it is implemented, really. However, the concept of "server progress" and my contributions to it would never even register in my conciousness. Or haven't, up to this point.

    -Non-static monster spawns. Monsters roam around their "biome", similar to Minecraft, and in fact actively seek players and other monsters they may be of "enemy factions" so you'd be able to see, say, and orc fighting an elf before the orc kills the elf and turns on you. Part of surviving farther away from the center would involve trying to make yourself the least noticeable, and having more people in those parts would in fact draw an exponential increase of monster meaning that the farther out you go, the more solo-friendly it gets.

    When enemies hang around a camp all day they become loot pinatas. Boring. So roaming and interacting enemies is a must for me. As for solo-friendly vs group friendly, I can't comment. I'm a solo player, and must be forced to group. So if you force me, great, if not I need solo content.

    - Being the first to do a dungeon or raid guarantees your group will get every possible drop, including one-of-a-kind unique items that increase in stats with the progression of the server. Also any member of the server first to do a dungeon or raid will be able to sell the "memories" of it in some fashion so that others can do the dungeon. Dungeons do not respawn their NPC's in the actual physical world and once done can only be repeated in that memory system. But they can spawn entirely new opponents.

    I don't understand the motivation this would foster, so this system would be a backdrop for me. Something to clutter up the forums. I would enjoy having memories of a dungeon (like Befallen), but would have no inclination to compete for it. Wouldn't this mean I'd eventually have to pay for runs of a specific dungeon?

    - Little to no initial customization. One predefined race (not human), and your body type is randomly generated however will fall within a medium. Customization would be done later by actually doing things that would make you look a certain way; i.e. toggle-able dynamic hair growth, muscle increase from strength related activities, etc.

    Sounds fine, loved the Fable system. Not a fan of a Gnome having the same strength rating as an Ogre.

    - Uncapped preparation benefits. For example, one could sharpen a sword before combat in a quick animation, and it might get a +3% boost in damage. Say if this person does it for 15 minutes in a short mini-game like thing, it might get a 10% boost. The longer the person does it, the more of a boost it gets, but the smaller the boost gets. 30 minutes might be 15%, an hour 16%, etc. It'll get smaller and smaller but never stop. The same for cooking, brewing potions, etc.

    I'm all about this. Although I would actually prefer not to play any kind of mini-game. I can't come up with an example of a mini-game within an RPG that I've ever enjoyed. I'd much prefer a simple progress bar while I sharpen. Along with an environment beautiful enough that I can enjoy the graphics in the meantime. Or perhaps zones dangerous enough that I am forced to check for enemies constantly (ala EQ).

    - Destructible terrain, at least in the form of ground. This would/could be utilized for procedurally generated veins of ore and gems, and used to mark specific special locations like dungeon entrances, treasure, etc.

    I'd love to build my own house, until someone built a huge flesh-spear atop it. Ooh, have someone's construction be able to "lock." I build a house, lock it, and live there.

    Alright that's it for now, I want everybody to be brutally honest about these ideas but if you can leave some feedback that'd be great too

    Overall definitely my type of game. I'd be willing to sub to something like this. Provided it was a fantasy setting :)

     

  • VelifaxVelifax Member UncommonPosts: 413

    Expanding on a few points;

     

    - Replacing grinding with a procedurally generated environment with lots of walking. The game will have lots of dynamic events and many sandbox elements in place that you can do along the way, as well as procedurally generating stuff that makes you have to tactically approach. Essentially the landscape will be MASSIVE, and there will be a lot of walking (days, weeks, etc) to draw out gameplay which is essentially what grinding does.

    I personally would much prefer this to mowing down hordes. As long as the environments were varied and high enough quality, I enjoy losing myself in, for example, forests between fights. If handled properly, this will be what brings me back again and again. Like Oblivion with more terrain. Travel should feel appropriate and shouldn't obviate any intervening terrain; horses are great, flying horses are not.

    Just to be clear, I don't need CryEngine to be entertained by graphics. If we're talking procedurally generated 3d world, I am satisfied with massive view distance and volumetric clouds. Pixel count wouldn't matter.

     

    - The above would be one server type, another would be a server with much enhanced and much more dangerous PvE. Not so much health and damage wise but more in terms of how well the A.I. reacts. This will come with little to no PvP, although a switch similar to WoW may be provided.

    I'll play here, and would need the "enhance and more dangerous" pve to keep me playing. Game, not movie. The pre-combat preparation and performance should matter; don't get caught out alone and unprepared.

    When I said, "Game, not movie," I kind of contradicted myself. I love EQ combat, which is notorious for allowing, ironically, watching movies while "fighting." So obviously I'm ambivalent here. I love WoW combat, which requires total concentration, and the opposite. Good luck pleasing me :)

     

    "I can't come up with an example of a mini-game within an RPG that I've ever enjoyed."

    Thought of one; pod racing in Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2. Very fun.

     

     

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,369


    Originally posted by avatarair
    - Action combat based on combo's- I.E. say you have basic "building block" abilities on your hotbar, kick, punch, dodge, etc, and when used together form combo attacks. Potentially an infinite amount of attacks in this way.- Open world PvP, however with an optional toggle that requires the person to "pay into" a faction with a number of resources to get this temporary status. The cost will be hefty so as to make sure that only people really willing to impede their progress if they do it continuously. 
    These 2 features would have me avoiding this MMO.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,444

    > - Replacing grinding with [...] lots of walking

    This is an awful idea. At very least during grinding I'm training to play my class. And if the game is challenging, grinding can actually be enjoyable, because you have to keep thinking. Running around though is dull by definition, except if its new terrain and you actually have to think again - like avoiding dangerous mobs etc.

    > - Action combat based on combo's

    That depends a lot on the actual implementation. This can be absolutely awful or absolutely genius. The combat system should be interesting and dynamic, with a lot of depth and you should really have to think what you do next, not just mash the same sequence of commands over and over.

    > - Open world PvP, however with an optional toggle

    I'm not into Open World PvP, I prefer sportive PvP, with mechanics like castle sieges or clan wars. Attacking people at random is stupid and leads to too much newbie ganking. If you define fun as "destroying the fun of other players", you dont belong in a game

    > - [Hardcore PvE only server]

    I dont see the point of making such a distinction. PvE should be challenging, always. Not just on specialzied servers that dont offer PvP as well.

    > - An optional server type where "survivalism"

    Again, I want my game to be challenging. Always,not just on specialized servers.

    > - The difficulty of the area being determined

    That doesnt sound like a carefully handcrafted roleplaying game to me. This is a Diablo style mechanic. I'm not interested in such games.

    > - Non-static monster spawns. [...] Minecraft [...]

    I'm not interested in games like Minecraft.

    > - Being the first to do a dungeon or raid guarantees your group will get every possible drop

    Thats stupid.

    > - Little to no initial customization.

    Thats not a roleplaying game.

    I dont oppose to specialize later, but my character has to have an identity and a past from the get go. So I want to choose name, gender, race, general class direction, statistics etc, as well as the looks.

    > - Uncapped preparation benefits.

    Thats how I always wanted my crafting system to work. You can make a sword in 2 minutes but then its just standard. You can spend half an hour and then its better. You can craft it for 8 hours and then its pretty good. You can combine the effords of douzens of players over a month and you can craft something truely exceptional.

    > - Destructible terrain

    Again, I dont care about Minecraft style games.

     

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • KnyttaKnytta Member UncommonPosts: 413
    Originally posted by avatarair

    - Replacing grinding with a procedurally generated environment with lots of walking. The game will have lots of dynamic events and many sandbox elements in place that you can do along the way,

    A big interesting environment with lots of things happening sure, walking godawful distances no.

    - Action combat based on combo's- I.E. say you have basic "building block" abilities on your hotbar, kick, punch, dodge, etc, and when used together form combo attacks. Potentially an infinite amount of attacks in this way.

    No

    - Open world PvP, however with an optional toggle that requires the person to "pay into" a faction with a number of resources to get this temporary status. The cost will be hefty so as to make sure that only people really willing to impede their progress if they do it continuously. 

    You explained this more, absolutely not. Why not reverse it and have the PVPers do this, or charge them $ to be PVP flagged.

    - The above would be one server type, another would be a server with much enhanced and much more dangerous PvE. Not so much health and damage wise but more in terms of how well the A.I. reacts. This will come with little to no PvP, although a switch similar to WoW may be provided.

    Interesting but would be VERY hard to pull off, and most likely one server type would become the popular one and the rest wastelands and you would have spent a lot of development time for no gain.

    - An optional server type where "survivalism" is enabled as well as many skill lines for survivalism from detailed and general ones to basic damage/debuff modifier skill lines like "cold water swimming endurance" and such. 

    As above, and to hardcore for most players

    - The difficulty of the area being determined by how far the server has explored the area around the center where everybody starts. Farther out will become increasingly more difficult until it becomes an impenetrable wall of difficulty until earlier areas are fully explored, while as more is explored, areas closer to the center become easier and the resources from them get more abundant. Essentially a "tier" system but one procedurally generated and influenced by the overall servers dedication.

    How will you avoid the constant need in a game like this to generate new areas, interesting idea but will be counterproductive, and you assume that people will cooperate.

    -Non-static monster spawns. Monsters roam around their "biome", similar to Minecraft, and in fact actively seek players and other monsters they may be of "enemy factions" so you'd be able to see, say, and orc fighting an elf before the orc kills the elf and turns on you. Part of surviving farther away from the center would involve trying to make yourself the least noticeable, and having more people in those parts would in fact draw an exponential increase of monster meaning that the farther out you go, the more solo-friendly it gets.

    EQ Next will have some of this they say, well see how it works

    - Being the first to do a dungeon or raid guarantees your group will get every possible drop, including one-of-a-kind unique items that increase in stats with the progression of the server. Also any member of the server first to do a dungeon or raid will be able to sell the "memories" of it in some fashion so that others can do the dungeon. Dungeons do not respawn their NPC's in the actual physical world and once done can only be repeated in that memory system. But they can spawn entirely new opponents.

    No, this is a horrible idea.

    - Little to no initial customization. One predefined race (not human), and your body type is randomly generated however will fall within a medium. Customization would be done later by actually doing things that would make you look a certain way; i.e. toggle-able dynamic hair growth, muscle increase from strength related activities, etc.

    No, this is a horrible idea.

    - Uncapped preparation benefits. For example, one could sharpen a sword before combat in a quick animation, and it might get a +3% boost in damage. Say if this person does it for 15 minutes in a short mini-game like thing, it might get a 10% boost. The longer the person does it, the more of a boost it gets, but the smaller the boost gets. 30 minutes might be 15%, an hour 16%, etc. It'll get smaller and smaller but never stop. The same for cooking, brewing potions, etc.

    No, this is a horrible idea.

    - Destructible terrain, at least in the form of ground. This would/could be utilized for procedurally generated veins of ore and gems, and used to mark specific special locations like dungeon entrances, treasure, etc.

    Could be interesting but experiences from Landmark shows that you have to have a very fast heal rate on the land, unless you want to encourage griefing.

    Alright that's it for now, I want everybody to be brutally honest about these ideas but if you can leave some feedback that'd be great too

    It sounds like you want a very hardcore game that really encourages and rewards  the "Leet" crowd. Unless your real name is Trump it would probably be a financial disaster for you  if you launched it because as someone wrote earlier, this game would really attract a very specific player type that most other MMO Players wants to stay away from.

    Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.

    He who can describe the flame does not burn.

    Petrarch


  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910

    Sounds kind of like a Minecraft mod.  I would probably like it, so long as it had either private servers, or the non-OWPvP server.

     

    **

     

    And construction/destruction checks.  I've played on Minecraft servers with the ability to build and mine anywhere and have it work, but there have to be checks in place to keep it from getting out of hand.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

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