Quantcast

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

What MMO devs can learn from D3 new version, if they want to cater to me

nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

First, let me stress that i am talking about my preference, and what i like in games. And if a MMO devs want me to like their game, here are a few design tips, drawing from how much i enjoy D3 2.01. Some of these are specific to 2.01, some not.

1) Make combat viscerol and fun. It is simply more fun and feel more powerful to mow down 20 mobs, instead of fighting 2 at a time.

2) Encourage different builds .. that is .. let the players have many ways of killing mobs effectively. This is the same principle as in games like Deus Ex where you can finish the quest with different approaches. Here, we are only talking about killing stuff .. but encourage different ways to do so. I have been experimenting with new builds since 2.01 came out.

3) One way to do so ... put random skill effects on gear. I tried out one build simply because of a skill bonus on a legendary helm (which also is an upgrade). Dominant build is a thing of the past in this game. The key is to have items interact with skills.

4) Encourage experimentation in the meta game. So let players respec at any time.

5) Difficulty slider, with clear articulation of risk vs reward. D3 is never too easy or too difficulty for me. MMOs need to learn to do that. It even has a PD option, although i am not using it.

6) Convenience! They add an option to res at your corpse in 2.01. No more running 5 min on empty hallways back to the fight. They also reduce the types of crafting materials. If crafting is not the focus of the game, don't make players jump through hoops managing related inv and stuff. Now you can also port to any way point from the map.

7) Take away things that distract from the core game, and focus. They took away auction house, and make new drops (legendary) BOA. So obviously the trading game is gone .. but that is good for the monster hunting game.

8) Polish ... obviously. I don't think i need to talk about blizz level of pollish.

Again .. this is what *I* like. Devs are free to cater to anyone, so this is not one of those "what MMO should be post".

 

«1

Comments

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,335

    Why in the world would the MMO dev's worry about catering to you Nari?

     

    Self admittedly you don't like to pay anything for your MMO's, you want everything for free as long as it's fun.

     

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by laserit

    Why in the world would the MMO dev's worry about catering to you Nari?

     

    Self admittedly you don't like to pay anything for your MMO's, you want everything for free as long as it's fun.

     

    I don't know .. but they seem to. May be i attract whales?

    Or may be because my preferences coincide with whales?

     

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,335
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by laserit

    Why in the world would the MMO dev's worry about catering to you Nari?

     

    Self admittedly you don't like to pay anything for your MMO's, you want everything for free as long as it's fun.

     

    I don't know .. but they seem to. May be i attract whales?

    Or may be because my preferences coincide with whales?

     

    If that's the case:

     

    You have to put #2,  #4 and #6 into the cash shop. Maybe make #3 a gamble (buying gems and wagering them on increasing the odd's of getting something exciting).

    Those whales are going to need something to buy.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by laserit

    Why in the world would the MMO dev's worry about catering to you Nari?

     

    Self admittedly you don't like to pay anything for your MMO's, you want everything for free as long as it's fun.

     

    I don't know .. but they seem to. May be i attract whales?

    Or may be because my preferences coincide with whales?

     

    If that's the case:

     

    You have to put #2,  #4 and #6 into the cash shop. Maybe make #3 a gamble (buying gems and wagering them on increasing the odd's of getting something exciting).

    Those whales are going to need something to buy.

    Or may be they can just make it B2P, don't call it a MMO, and sell it as a box ARPG?

    On the flip side, they obviously need to maintain *some* freebies, or else they will have no free players, and probably not attracting whales.

     

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,335
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by laserit

    Why in the world would the MMO dev's worry about catering to you Nari?

     

    Self admittedly you don't like to pay anything for your MMO's, you want everything for free as long as it's fun.

     

    I don't know .. but they seem to. May be i attract whales?

    Or may be because my preferences coincide with whales?

     

    If that's the case:

     

    You have to put #2,  #4 and #6 into the cash shop. Maybe make #3 a gamble (buying gems and wagering them on increasing the odd's of getting something exciting).

    Those whales are going to need something to buy.

    Or may be they can just make it B2P, don't call it a MMO, and sell it as a box ARPG?

    On the flip side, they obviously need to maintain *some* freebies, or else they will have no free players, and probably not attracting whales.

     

    #1, #5 and #8 are your freebies.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by laserit

    Why in the world would the MMO dev's worry about catering to you Nari?

     

    Self admittedly you don't like to pay anything for your MMO's, you want everything for free as long as it's fun.

     

    I don't know .. but they seem to. May be i attract whales?

    Or may be because my preferences coincide with whales?

     

    If that's the case:

     

    You have to put #2,  #4 and #6 into the cash shop. Maybe make #3 a gamble (buying gems and wagering them on increasing the odd's of getting something exciting).

    Those whales are going to need something to buy.

    Or may be they can just make it B2P, don't call it a MMO, and sell it as a box ARPG?

    On the flip side, they obviously need to maintain *some* freebies, or else they will have no free players, and probably not attracting whales.

     

    #1, #5 and #8 are your freebies.

    More the better ...

  • KuinnKuinn Member UncommonPosts: 2,072
    Is the auction house gone from PC D3?
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Kuinn
    Is the auction house gone from PC D3?

    Scheduled to be gone by mid March, so yes before the expansion.

    Also, as of NOW, all the legendary drops are BOA, so you cannot trade the new smart drop stuff (which are great .. particularly with many skill changing properties .. which promotes build diversity).

     

  • KuinnKuinn Member UncommonPosts: 2,072

    Nice, I might have to install the game again as soon as the AH is gone. It was horrible system that killed the joy of dropped loot and compelled me to go buy a new set of better gear from the AH every couple of levels because why not?

     

    I take it the drop rates (or loot generation in general) are better now for okay loot? I dont recall getting a SINGLE good loot drop when I played the game, and I think I actually played through 2 difficulties on 2 different characters.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Kuinn

    Nice, I might have to install the game again as soon as the AH is gone. It was horrible system that killed the joy of dropped loot and compelled me to go buy a new set of better gear from the AH every couple of levels because why not?

     

    I take it the drop rates (or loot generation in general) are better now for okay loot? I dont recall getting a SINGLE good loot drop when I played the game, and I think I actually played through 2 difficulties on 2 different characters.

    You may want to start playing now because the good loot is already BOA, and so AH is irrelevant already. But if you want to wait, it is not going to be long anyway.

    As a point of references. I played since day before yesterday .. already got 4-5 legendary items. Out of those, I have one strict upgrade (with a build changing affix, no less, though a weak one), and one side-grade .. which can turn into an upgrade when the mystic is up and running.

    And i have a pretty gear toon before this is released. So the kill, loot, upgrade game is very much alive. BTW, i have NOT touched the AH since the patch hit. I doubt many are using them now.

    BTW, i have also upgraded one piece of gear by crafting. It used to be impossible, but the smart-loot system really make the rolls much much better.

     

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Member Posts: 1,788
    What exactly does a game developer get for catering to the OP?

    You make me like charity

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135

    I really don't understand this OP.

    First off, WHY would any dev be worried about catering to you, specifically?

    Secondly, the only real lesson to be learned from D3 (dev's-wise) is that RMT is a good way to screw up your game. D3 2.01 is essentially just asking gamers to pay for Blizzard to fix their own game. There is nothing 'good' about that for other studios to adopt.

    Everything else you are talking about in regards to build creation, having choices, etc. Other games are already doing better than D3. I'm glad you like the game, but if you really think what they're doing is that amazing, I'd highly recommend checking out the numerous other ARPGs that are way better. D2, Titanquest, Path of Exile, to name a few.

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    The main flaw I find with D3 is that it is short and very repetitive.  Even Diablo 1, 2 seemed longer games.  They don't seem randomly generated enough to want to play through them over and over again.  I hope the loot 2.0 system helped a lot with the loot because there was nothing interesting about the randomly generated stats loot.  In the originals all the maps were random, the atmosphere/story was better, and you generally grinded for cool specific item sets specifically designed for your class, but were very rare.  The classes were also better in D1/D2.  The only thing I'll give D3 is that it was fun to play through the first 2 times and that the game engine is a lot smoother.  I'm not sure I'd want MMOs to play like this.  I prefer first/third person point of view in most cases.
  • I actually ended up really disliking the respec anywhere for free feature. It makes me feel detached from my character and I feel he's just a clean slate carbon copy of all other characters of the same class. I missed building my character in Diablo 3.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Flyte27
      The only thing I'll give D3 is that it was fun to play through the first 2 times and that the game engine is a lot smoother.  I'm not sure I'd want MMOs to play like this.  I prefer first/third person point of view in most cases.

    That is your preferences. Not mine. As you know, there are many people who have spent hundred of hours into D3 even before the change.

    The combat is way more fun than D1, D2, PoE, Titanquest, and all other ARPGs, for me, of course.

    Class design is a preference .. but personally, i like the diversity of skills (from slow-time bubble, to changing form) in D3 than D1 & D2. Now that i will chalk up to personal preferences.

    But the point is this. You don't want your MMO to play like this ... I do. And i am airing that opinion.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    What exactly does a game developer get for catering to the OP?

    I dunno .. that is why i said "IF they want to cater to me".

    And from games like Marvel Heroes, it is obviously that some devs are catering to my preferences.

     

  • imsoenthusedimsoenthused Member UncommonPosts: 65
    Originally posted by Axxar

    I actually ended up really disliking the respec anywhere for free feature. It makes me feel detached from my character and I feel he's just a clean slate carbon copy of all other characters of the same class. I missed building my character in Diablo 3.

    Yep, I was such a Diablo 2 fan that I jumped right in D3 and was hugely disappointed. Lots of us were. There were raging forum wars about the fact that Torchlight 2 was a better Diablo 3 and than the actual Diablo 3 was. The game was almost universally despised by Diablo 2 fans. This game single handedly made me swear to never buy another Blizzard product with out waiting for six months or so worth of reviews. I miss playing with synergies and making characters. It took an investment to try something really interesting. Now it's just a matter of flipping a few toggles, and no real chance for originality. Nobody who sees your build goes, "Wow, I want to make a new character and try that". They just flip a few toggles. I think that killed the spirit of the game almost as much as the horrible drops. Getting rid of the auction house sounds nice and all, but I don't know that it's enough to make me re-install the game.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by imsoenthused
    Originally posted by Axxar

    I actually ended up really disliking the respec anywhere for free feature. It makes me feel detached from my character and I feel he's just a clean slate carbon copy of all other characters of the same class. I missed building my character in Diablo 3.

    Yep, I was such a Diablo 2 fan that I jumped right in D3 and was hugely disappointed. Lots of us were. There were raging forum wars about the fact that Torchlight 2 was a better Diablo 3 and than the actual Diablo 3 was. The game was almost universally despised by Diablo 2 fans. This game single handedly made me swear to never buy another Blizzard product with out waiting for six months or so worth of reviews. I miss playing with synergies and making characters. It took an investment to try something really interesting. Now it's just a matter of flipping a few toggles, and no real chance for originality. Nobody who sees your build goes, "Wow, I want to make a new character and try that". They just flip a few toggles. I think that killed the spirit of the game almost as much as the horrible drops. Getting rid of the auction house sounds nice and all, but I don't know that it's enough to make me re-install the game.

    Many disagree. I am a much bigger D3 fan than D2 because of respec anywhere. It makes experimentation with builds great.

    In fact, i don't want to "make an investment" just to try a new build. That is why D3 is a much better game than D2 to me. I don't know what is your problem about trying out builds. Exactly i want either others can copy my builds, or i can use good ideas from others.

    TL2 .. really? Its skills and combat are no where as much fun as D3.

     

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910

    It would be funny if @narriusseldon was the peak of a bell curve where if a developer saw them in their game, they would know that they've put together the right mix of game features to attract a sufficient number of people to their game to make sure it's profitable.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • MyrdynnMyrdynn Member RarePosts: 2,435

    I just want an actual MMO to use a RNG for loot someday again.  Asheron's Call did it in 1999 and its still by far the best loot system.  Loot 2.0 in D3 is the 2nd best system I have seen.  Its nice that most yellow and up gear is for my class, with the occasional item for others.  The public groups have been quick and fun.  Its a lot of fun to start a level 1 with 50 Paragon points and try to play the game from level 1 on Torment. or at least Master.

    I have changed my spec 3 times so far cause of loot upgrades, finding skills I never knew were fun much less viable

    Cyclone Strike on a monk is 1 for me, I never used, now its my main attack

     

  • JimmyYOJimmyYO Member UncommonPosts: 519
    The new D3 lead has really impressed me with his ballzy decision making. This game might actually make a comeback.  Will the expansion include D3 with it?
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,178

    Overall I think the OP list is very good. I personally don't think teleporting has to be everywhere for every game, but I do think pointless running around just to draw travel out is a poor design trope.

    I also disagree with the posters who say that respecs need to be monetized in a cash shop or be heavily limited. Neverwinter does this and it is one of my least favorite aspects of the game. You can still make respecs cost or have a requirement without being draconian. There is a balance. Rift and EQ2 have a decent respec system now. TL2 offers respecs but costs a bit. Character building and experimentation should be encouraged not discouraged.

    The rest of the list appeals to me as well and those principles could apply to a wide variety of game designs and types, not just arpgs.

    edit: Also I agree with Myrdynn that loot drops should be more dynamic and interesting. Give me reasons to be interested in mob farming again. Lineage, along with AC, did this very well.

    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • imsoenthusedimsoenthused Member UncommonPosts: 65


    Originally posted by nariusseldonMany disagree. I am a much bigger D3 fan than D2 because of respec anywhere. It makes experimentation with builds great. In fact, i don't want to "make an investment" just to try a new build. That is why D3 is a much better game than D2 to me. I don't know what is your problem about trying out builds. Exactly i want either others can copy my builds, or i can use good ideas from others. TL2 .. really? Its skills and combat are no where as much fun as D3.  
     
    TL2 was about several thousand times superior to D3 at release. D3 at release was a horrible game, even after you got past the server issues and actually got to play. As for the respec thing, I think it just makes leveling pointless. If I can respec, might as well do away with levels completely. Also, no character planning. Seeing weird things like pure shout barbarians, or a pure passive Amazon, etc in Diablo 2 meant something, you'd put work into leveling up a fun, niche build and people respected that. Doing the equivalent in Diablo 3 isn't even possible, and if it was people would just wonder why you were using such horrible skills. It comes down to preference, but I think easy respecing devalues builds, and completely devalues leveling.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by imsoenthused
     It comes down to preference, but I think easy respecing devalues builds, and completely devalues leveling.

     

    Sure. You don't like it. I, and many others who like experiment with builds ... like it. This "devaluing" leveling is just weird, for me .. we are playing a fun game, not do work for value.

    You should not play D3. Others like me, and some other posted who like the new change would. There are enough of us. Have fun finding another game.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    It would be funny if @narriusseldon was the peak of a bell curve where if a developer saw them in their game, they would know that they've put together the right mix of game features to attract a sufficient number of people to their game to make sure it's profitable.

     

    D3 certainly is highly profitable selling 15M boxes .. and i bet RoS will be quite profitable too.

     

Sign In or Register to comment.