Originally posted by Margrave I will never play, or even try, a perma-death game. Ever.
No one asked you to.If we replace the word "Permadeath" with "Same sex marriages" you people would all look like horrible bigots.
wow... the vitriol is heavy in this one.
How does same-sex marriages affect my character?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The only MMO's I play at the moment are Path of Exile and D3 RoS, both on hardcore. Guess why I play those games
With the Wildstar beta last weekend I played to lvl 2, every single second I was thinking... "here we go again". So I just quit and I won't even give it a try. Yes I should have known what to expect, but gosh darnit I just want an mmorpg with balls, and I don't think it is offered in an appealing way atm.
PS: Permadeath can be handled in any environment. PvP doesn't cause permadeath but can have penalties, DC's can just kick you out of the game or whatever. In path of exile I have never died due to a crash or DC even though it happend about ten times. You could go even further, DC could make you immune to PvE attacks but not PvP attacks. It shouldn't be hard to come up with solutions. Just think outside the box for a minute, thinking outside the box usually brings the best games.
Originally posted by geel PS: Permadeath can be handled in any environment. PvP doesn't cause permadeath but can have penalties, DC's can just kick you out of the game or whatever. In path of exile I have never died due to a crash or DC even though it happend about ten times. You could go even further, DC could make you immune to PvE attacks but not PvP attacks. It shouldn't be hard to come up with solutions. Just think outside the box for a minute, thinking outside the box usually brings the best games.
But are those "perma-death", or "perma-death lite?"
Permanent death: Character is deleted upon death. PERMANENT death. All this other "work-around" really isn't what you're calling it, is it?
"I want a PERMANENT death MMO, but..." What is the point?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Sure, what exactly am I looking for? I don't see any permadeath MMO's flying off the charts with donations, so please be a pal and send me a link.
I suspect they permadied...
Seriously though, I'd love for everyone to get whatever game they want made and for those people to be happy campers.
Personally, I'd love for somebody to remake Motor City Online with more/better tracks. But I also know that most gamers, even racing gamers don't give a flying fart about the difference between a single or dual plane intake manifold(MCO had a HUGE parts system) and would rather have good/better/best car upgrades, so I accept that I'm in the minority.
I wish that permadeath proponents could do the same. If this ToA game gets built, it will serve but a tiny sliver of the MMO community and will never break into the mainstream. That doesn't mean it shouldn't get made; a small MMO can thrive with good management, just as any AAA can. If there truly is a market for it, I'd like to see it satisfied... if for no other reason than to keep people from popping in here claiming the feature would make the next WoW-killer.
The only MMO's I play at the moment are Path of Exile and D3 RoS, both on hardcore. Guess why I play those games
again .. it is pretty clear that D3 hardcore mode works, and i see it as good evidence that a PD option is reasonable even when most players don't use it.
(Plus, the additional resources to have the mode is probably not very high).
Originally posted by FlyByKnight He plays Path of Exile and D3 on hardcore because he likes to keep starting over again which isn't perma death. Easiest question ever.
Plenty of people make it to max level on D3? Are you just jelly that you die in Act 1?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I do think there is a niche market for permadeath games. I for one remember when the first Neverwinter Nights game came out. While not being on a MMO scale there were quite a few popular servers with hardcore 2nd edition D&D rules implemented and which implemented permadeath (unless ressurected ingame) like in tabletop D&D. There was those with full loot PVP and PVE servers.
I had some of my most intense gaming moments on those servers and would certainly play a larger scale game like this.
Trick is to NOT make the game about character advancement, but about other goals like factional dominance and conflict. Or at the very least making character progression pretty fast so you don't get stuck repeating content when your character dies.
This shows that 9% of the 67.1M characters at the one-year mark are hardcore. That is roughly 6M characters. As you know, there are only 5 classes, so the minimal number of players involved is 6M/5 = 1.2M players.
So 1.2M players play at least *some* hardcore D3. Note that many made it to max level if you check D3 toon sites.
So it is not that niche .. while certainly it is still minority (1.2M is around 10% of the D3 sales then).
For perm death MMORPG you're going to need to make a good game first. Your going to have to make a game built around having a reason for perm death. Is perm death something that's rare where you get rarely killed or situationally killed? Or is it a game where you die often and you're not real attached to your character?
The biggest problem really is the mentality of the players. Most are going to offhand reject it just because it different. How do you reach them is going to be the biggest issue. Players are conditioned.
It might add something to some players. I just think it's stupid. Imagine beeing in a dungeon and your healer or tank is a bit undergeared. Today i would go ahead and maybe use a bit of cc and 9/10 times we would be fine. If there was permadeath i wouldn't risc it. All bosses in every dungeon or raid you would have to kill 1st try. Bosses would have to be made fairly easy or you would have to make a PTR without permadeath where people could learn boss mechanics. And then ofc PTR would be mandatory for any guilds even ½ serious about raids.
I'm sure you could make a MMO with permadeath. But it would have to be a new kind of MMO. One with an overall much smaller chance of dying. Maybe some new MMO that was mostly about crafting, collecting resourses, trading, housing and roleplaying, not about raiding. The way i see it any MMO with raiding and dungeons wouldn't work with permadeath.
This shows that 9% of the 67.1M characters at the one-year mark are hardcore. That is roughly 6M characters. As you know, there are only 5 classes, so the minimal number of players involved is 6M/5 = 1.2M players.
So 1.2M players play at least *some* hardcore D3. Note that many made it to max level if you check D3 toon sites.
So it is not that niche .. while certainly it is still minority (1.2M is around 10% of the D3 sales then).
I very much appreciate your more realistic view on the whole thing, compared to someone who posts a thread entitled: "Why MMORPGS's need Permadeath!" Particularly in comparison to others, who seem to think insulting people is the path to getting what they want(not mentioning any names...).
Remember(theoretically) that your Barbarian at 40th level and my Barbarian at 40th level have, skillwise, the same resources. We pick and choose from the same pool of abilities. Hell, we even look the same. Only gear and our loadout differentiates us.
So the loss of that character is really only a matter of gear(like Eve Online) and grinding(also Eve Online).
Most MMO's aren't that simple. If I had to redo my main character from LotRO, it would take me HUNDREDS of hours to get back to where I started. This is not an exaggeration.
So yes. It's absolutely possible to create a game that has perma-death, or at very least, has HUGE consequences for dying and have it gain an audience. The question that developers(should) ask themselves is; "does it work well within our system?" And/or... "do I want to create a system in which it works well?"
The more shallow the system, the better it works.
But yes, IMO, perma-death is entirely possible, and marketable! But only on the most shallow concepts. Perma-death wouldn't be a conversion or a revolution, it would be an alternative.
I'd probably still play GW2 if it had a permadeath option. Even though the loot system doesn't compliment the permadeath concept, it would still be fun to me.
Most MMO's aren't that simple. If I had to redo my main character from LotRO, it would take me HUNDREDS of hours to get back to where I started. This is not an exaggeration.
The same is true for D3. Many hardcore characters have logged hundred of hours. Heck, my SC toon has 800 hours on it .. and many HC toons are at max level with better gear .. and it probably takes longer for a HC toon to get where my SC is.
So yeah .. many of those are results of hundreds of hours of play.
Comments
"I would never be in, or even try, a same sex marriage. Ever." is a bigoted statement?
How does same-sex marriages affect my character?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The only MMO's I play at the moment are Path of Exile and D3 RoS, both on hardcore. Guess why I play those games
With the Wildstar beta last weekend I played to lvl 2, every single second I was thinking... "here we go again". So I just quit and I won't even give it a try. Yes I should have known what to expect, but gosh darnit I just want an mmorpg with balls, and I don't think it is offered in an appealing way atm.
PS: Permadeath can be handled in any environment. PvP doesn't cause permadeath but can have penalties, DC's can just kick you out of the game or whatever. In path of exile I have never died due to a crash or DC even though it happend about ten times. You could go even further, DC could make you immune to PvE attacks but not PvP attacks. It shouldn't be hard to come up with solutions. Just think outside the box for a minute, thinking outside the box usually brings the best games.
Permanent death: Character is deleted upon death. PERMANENT death. All this other "work-around" really isn't what you're calling it, is it?
"I want a PERMANENT death MMO, but..." What is the point?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I suspect they permadied...
Seriously though, I'd love for everyone to get whatever game they want made and for those people to be happy campers.
Personally, I'd love for somebody to remake Motor City Online with more/better tracks. But I also know that most gamers, even racing gamers don't give a flying fart about the difference between a single or dual plane intake manifold(MCO had a HUGE parts system) and would rather have good/better/best car upgrades, so I accept that I'm in the minority.
I wish that permadeath proponents could do the same. If this ToA game gets built, it will serve but a tiny sliver of the MMO community and will never break into the mainstream. That doesn't mean it shouldn't get made; a small MMO can thrive with good management, just as any AAA can. If there truly is a market for it, I'd like to see it satisfied... if for no other reason than to keep people from popping in here claiming the feature would make the next WoW-killer.
again .. it is pretty clear that D3 hardcore mode works, and i see it as good evidence that a PD option is reasonable even when most players don't use it.
(Plus, the additional resources to have the mode is probably not very high).
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Plenty of people make it to max level on D3? Are you just jelly that you die in Act 1?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I do think there is a niche market for permadeath games. I for one remember when the first Neverwinter Nights game came out. While not being on a MMO scale there were quite a few popular servers with hardcore 2nd edition D&D rules implemented and which implemented permadeath (unless ressurected ingame) like in tabletop D&D. There was those with full loot PVP and PVE servers.
I had some of my most intense gaming moments on those servers and would certainly play a larger scale game like this.
Trick is to NOT make the game about character advancement, but about other goals like factional dominance and conflict. Or at the very least making character progression pretty fast so you don't get stuck repeating content when your character dies.
I don't think it is that niche either. Certainly in the minority, but niche?
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/9691895/diablo-iii’s-one-year-anniversary-infographic-5-20-2013
This shows that 9% of the 67.1M characters at the one-year mark are hardcore. That is roughly 6M characters. As you know, there are only 5 classes, so the minimal number of players involved is 6M/5 = 1.2M players.
So 1.2M players play at least *some* hardcore D3. Note that many made it to max level if you check D3 toon sites.
So it is not that niche .. while certainly it is still minority (1.2M is around 10% of the D3 sales then).
For perm death MMORPG you're going to need to make a good game first. Your going to have to make a game built around having a reason for perm death. Is perm death something that's rare where you get rarely killed or situationally killed? Or is it a game where you die often and you're not real attached to your character?
The biggest problem really is the mentality of the players. Most are going to offhand reject it just because it different. How do you reach them is going to be the biggest issue. Players are conditioned.
It might add something to some players. I just think it's stupid. Imagine beeing in a dungeon and your healer or tank is a bit undergeared. Today i would go ahead and maybe use a bit of cc and 9/10 times we would be fine. If there was permadeath i wouldn't risc it. All bosses in every dungeon or raid you would have to kill 1st try. Bosses would have to be made fairly easy or you would have to make a PTR without permadeath where people could learn boss mechanics. And then ofc PTR would be mandatory for any guilds even ½ serious about raids.
I'm sure you could make a MMO with permadeath. But it would have to be a new kind of MMO. One with an overall much smaller chance of dying. Maybe some new MMO that was mostly about crafting, collecting resourses, trading, housing and roleplaying, not about raiding. The way i see it any MMO with raiding and dungeons wouldn't work with permadeath.
I very much appreciate your more realistic view on the whole thing, compared to someone who posts a thread entitled: "Why MMORPGS's need Permadeath!" Particularly in comparison to others, who seem to think insulting people is the path to getting what they want(not mentioning any names...).
Remember(theoretically) that your Barbarian at 40th level and my Barbarian at 40th level have, skillwise, the same resources. We pick and choose from the same pool of abilities. Hell, we even look the same. Only gear and our loadout differentiates us.
So the loss of that character is really only a matter of gear(like Eve Online) and grinding(also Eve Online).
Most MMO's aren't that simple. If I had to redo my main character from LotRO, it would take me HUNDREDS of hours to get back to where I started. This is not an exaggeration.
So yes. It's absolutely possible to create a game that has perma-death, or at very least, has HUGE consequences for dying and have it gain an audience. The question that developers(should) ask themselves is; "does it work well within our system?" And/or... "do I want to create a system in which it works well?"
The more shallow the system, the better it works.
But yes, IMO, perma-death is entirely possible, and marketable! But only on the most shallow concepts. Perma-death wouldn't be a conversion or a revolution, it would be an alternative.
And who am I to dismiss alternatives?
The same is true for D3. Many hardcore characters have logged hundred of hours. Heck, my SC toon has 800 hours on it .. and many HC toons are at max level with better gear .. and it probably takes longer for a HC toon to get where my SC is.
So yeah .. many of those are results of hundreds of hours of play.