Looking for stuff is not difficult, just tedious .. so no i am not turning it off. They should have a difficulty option for combat though, because i like challenging combat.
Within the context of the quest then it just makes no sense. The NPC tells you he lost his underpants and need you to find them. Then the game puts a big "X" on the map showing you where you can find them. What's the point of the quest, to make me walk to an X and back? The best part is they give XP and loot for doing this pointless chore.
I wish game makers would just 86 these types of quests once and for all.
I agree. Also, it isn't a quest, it's a relay race.
Was watching people last night in Aion do that. grab quest run out to a field, run back rinse repeat.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
No. I would like a harsh death penalty / harder difficulty in the game, but so long as the game is a competitive game and doesn't increase your rewards for doing either of those, there is no reason to choose them if they're optional. That works in single player games (though it still feels lackluster unless they reward you appropriately for picking the harder difficulty -- like increased drop rates or more available quests or something,) but if you're out to compete with the best of them, you're not going to gimp yourself.
When a game has significant death penalties, I feel that's all the more reason to make the difficulty harder. You might die a lot, but you won't get punished for it. Likewise, the harsher the death penalty, the easier you can make it, since it's more significant when you do die.
If someone wants to increase/decrease their difficulty in an MMO, they should go hunt the appropriate level mobs/quests. If it's too easy for me, I can go kill monsters 5 levels above mine and actually be rewarded for doing so. Something like turning off quest markers should just be a decision made by the devs. It would be great if they turned it off universally, mind you. It worked exceptionally well back in the day, so I have no doubt it'd work fine now. We'd still have map markers, after all. No doubt a lot of people would just open up quest walkthroughs on a second monitor, though.
Looking for stuff is not difficult, just tedious .. so no i am not turning it off. They should have a difficulty option for combat though, because i like challenging combat.
Within the context of the quest then it just makes no sense. The NPC tells you he lost his underpants and need you to find them. Then the game puts a big "X" on the map showing you where you can find them. What's the point of the quest, to make me walk to an X and back? The best part is they give XP and loot for doing this pointless chore.
I wish game makers would just 86 these types of quests once and for all.
I agree. Also, it isn't a quest, it's a relay race.
Was watching people last night in Aion do that. grab quest run out to a field, run back rinse repeat.
That kind of quest wouldn't actually be that bad if you really had to look. It would be a good way to get people to keep an eye out for their surroundings. Even better if you could pick up the underpants even without having the quest, and if you find someone missing their underpants -- hey, Exp and gold!
Tabula Rasa had a system like that toward the end; kinda like a gambling system. You would put an item up for collateral, which would give you bonuses(XP, I think). The more valuable the item, the bigger the bonus. If you died, you'd lose the item.
STO's difficulty level basically turns on a death penalty where you recieve an injury or ship malfunction if you die/blow up. You can buy repair/med kits to fix it though. Probably alot weaker a DP than the OP would like, though.
Personally, I don't much care for death penalties, particularly the ones designed to weaken you and prevent you from finishing what you are doing for a set time. IMO they're counterproductive. But to each their own.
Originally posted by Loktofeit I realize I'm in the minority here, but I usually create self-imposed restrictions for my PVP characters, specifically my PK or RPK characters.
Just curious... What kinds of restrictions do you impose?
In one game, my character didn't own a house or wear any armor over leather. In another, I only looted what my character actually uses. On a character I am currently playing, I won't use weapons or gear made of steel or other high end materials.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Looking for stuff is not difficult, just tedious .. so no i am not turning it off. They should have a difficulty option for combat though, because i like challenging combat.
Within the context of the quest then it just makes no sense. The NPC tells you he lost his underpants and need you to find them. Then the game puts a big "X" on the map showing you where you can find them. What's the point of the quest, to make me walk to an X and back? The best part is they give XP and loot for doing this pointless chore.
I wish game makers would just 86 these types of quests once and for all.
Quests are just dressed up excuses for combat ... NPC tells me to kill a troll in a cave. My enjoyment is to kill the troll, not to find the cave (which again, is easy and tedious to me).
In fact, better yet, just port me to the cave.
Make it a fun instance/level with multiple strategies and stuff.
Chores are only pointless if you don't dress it up well.
I wouldn't use an optional harsh death penalty either, unless there was some benefit beyond just being mean to yourself.
A death penalty slider could work really well. Tie the players risk to his rewards. Choose no penalty for losing and you receive no reward for winning. Choose max penalty for losing and get the best rewards if you win.
work very well in D3 ... choose your MP power for a risks vs reward slider, and optional PD. More games should use this kind of a system. There is no more complaint about either too hard or easy-mode after the change.
So How many of you would willingly use optional difficulty?
Would you Harsh Death Penalty fans use such a feature?
2 questions, so 2 different answers.
1. I already use optional difficulty in MMOs. Plenty have offered harder dungeon/instances and I do them when ever possible. I also do single player games in hard mode first, and after beating it on legendary.
2. No I would not use harsher death penality in an MMO. its a cheap feature. MMOs should be about longevity in a FUN environment while providing a challenge. Being slapped for death does not increase the challenge, it increases the annoyance factor.
If a game is challenging it would remain challenging even if you die and only get a rainbow over your head for it.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
I absolutely would use optional difficulty if implemented correctly. However your design does not account for it being a living MMO world.
I loved the hard mode dungeons in WoW that when first implemented back in BC early days were actually HARD. Only a few percentage of players on each server cleared them because of the coordination required. However these were eventually nerfed so everyone can do them. WoW removed the optional small dungeon diffculty content from the game. I quit shortly after.
I think optional difficulty like EvE does is wonderful. In high security status systems you are mostly safe doing as you please but in low sec you can be ganked with some assistance from guard gates and in null sec you can get ganked freely. When you die you lose your ship and your mods which can be cheap or expensive as you choose.
The optional difficulty in EvE comes in how you play the game.
But if difficulty does not scale with rewards there is not much point in doing it especially in a multiplayer interactive setting like a MMO. I love playing hard or legendary difficulties on single player console games because my achievement in that game is non interactive with other people. However lets say that a similar setting was enabled on an MMO....I would only use the setting optimal for rewards because I need to compete with other players with respect to time. A single player RPG doe snot have this problem and often because there is a finite amount of content is better savored with a longer play experience brought by a harder difficulty. Games where PVP or group PVE designed into them do not have the same reward for savoring the experience.
Risk must equal reward to make an activity worth doing. I am down for more risk, I love it......but it must also be complemented by more reward. Lately games just lower the risk to nothing and increase the rewards anyways and the game quickly becomes a grinding borefest.
Also with the optional quest markers issue: I hate quest markers with a passion because it is lead by the hand design. That said I will not turn them off because it puts me at a competitive disadvantage. If they exist I will use them even if I hate the design choice. That choice was made by the devs.
Realize that in an MMO not everyone plays for the here and now but for the potential of the future...I will play through conditions I hate to reach conditions I like. Not every new MMO player is used to that kind of playstyle and many people I have talked to do not understand my mindset. If it was them, they would turn the quest markers off if they wanted it that way (they almost always say they prefer them on though) rather than endure something they did not like.
Choice is not an option. (yeah, I'm a jerk like that)
I don't mind if there are alternate rules servers, but otherwise let's all exist in the same level playing field, accepting what the rules are, whether there is permadeath, or other penalties.
I don't think it's being a jerk.
Part of the fun of playing with other people is shared experience. And part of that shared experience is playing by the same rules. It's not fun playing monopoly if every one is playing by some other rules.
The issue with mmo's is that some people don't look at it as ":playing with other people:. They look at it as playing and there happen to be other people sharing the same space.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Also with the optional quest markers issue: I hate quest markers with a passion because it is lead by the hand design. That said I will not turn them off because it puts me at a competitive disadvantage. If they exist I will use them even if I hate the design choice. That choice was made by the devs.
Realize that in an MMO not everyone plays for the here and now but for the potential of the future...I will play through conditions I hate to reach conditions I like. Not every new MMO player is used to that kind of playstyle and many people I have talked to do not understand my mindset. If it was them, they would turn the quest markers off if they wanted it that way (they almost always say they prefer them on though) rather than endure something they did not like.
I am the opposite since I do not see MMORPGs as competitive games (even the PvP parts) and prefer to approach them as positive-gain cooperative games. Thus if handicapping myself, provides a better challenge then it is a net gain for me.
I absolutely would use optional difficulty if implemented correctly. However your design does not account for it being a living MMO world.
True .. but so what? A living MMO world is not required to make a fun MMO for me. In fact, much of MMO gameplay is instanced, and have little to do with a living MMO world.
In fact, if a living MMO world is an obstacle to fun (for example, a barrier to tune difficulty right for everyone), i say junk it.
I think it could be interesting if there was an item you could find and when equipped it would give you a powerful passive bonus but if you die while you have it equipped you cannot resurrect. Instead you could make a new character that would inherit some traits from the old one.
I am not a huge fan of dial your own difficulty, or we have 6 dungeons with 3 different difficulties, so we have 18 dungeons!
I want to play a mmo, and it be the same mmo for all, if it is one where every dungeon is hard, so be it. The extra difficulties, seem like a cheap gimmick, and gets counted as extra dungeons usually in promos. It feels lazy to me. Just like stories and other mechanisims usually pair down the starting areas to 1-2 areas, to save time/money. I much prefer having tons of unique areas, like EQ did with most of their races, it adds to the game, and the cost, but I admit it doesn't really mesh with the game jumper/f2p style that things are geared for now...Doesn't mean I don't miss it though, and look for it.
So no, not a huge fan of turning off the xp, markers, or making things harder, it just speaks to making something more generic for me. I think you get a concept, decide how hard you think it needs to be, and go. Using a 1-10 dial for content just doesn't make me think of exploring and finding new things, just seems like you are in a dungeon challenge, not a mmo. Too many mmos level you so quickly, worrying about getting good gear before max level is almost pointless, as you out level drops too quickly, I don't see the point in turning xp off, to play a mmo in a different way than it was designed. I would prefer the designer make it slower for everyone and make levels/gear matter more, not just end game.
Originally posted by Loktofeit I realize I'm in the minority here, but I usually create self-imposed restrictions for my PVP characters, specifically my PK or RPK characters.
Just curious... What kinds of restrictions do you impose?
In one game, my character didn't own a house or wear any armor over leather. In another, I only looted what my character actually uses. On a character I am currently playing, I won't use weapons or gear made of steel or other high end materials.
Cool! So it is more of a "roleplaying your character" thing rather than a "difficulty" thing? I realize that this can many times make the game more difficult, but that doesn't sound like the first reason you are doing it
I often do similar things. I'll use the weapon and armor that "fit" my character concept, not what gives max damage or max damage mitigation.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Loktofeit I realize I'm in the minority here, but I usually create self-imposed restrictions for my PVP characters, specifically my PK or RPK characters.
Just curious... What kinds of restrictions do you impose?
In one game, my character didn't own a house or wear any armor over leather. In another, I only looted what my character actually uses. On a character I am currently playing, I won't use weapons or gear made of steel or other high end materials.
Cool! So it is more of a "roleplaying your character" thing rather than a "difficulty" thing? I realize that this can many times make the game more difficult, but that doesn't sound like the first reason you are doing it
I often do similar things. I'll use the weapon and armor that "fit" my character concept, not what gives max damage or max damage mitigation.
Did it in UO, made a guy that was a outdoor survivalist and a alchemist, so I only used leather armor, axes, and made potions to pvp. He wasn't that great, but fun to play. He had the same name as a real life infamous person that was a woodsy/loner/bomber type. I made sure to give him general crafting to make things he would need, cook and so forth. He actually came in handy when people needed some basic crafted items that were in areas that a lot of people didn't do. Foregoing magic hurt the guy's strength in pvp some, but I played him as someone that hated magic use.
I want to play a mmo, and it be the same mmo for all, if it is one where every dungeon is hard, so be it. The extra difficulties, seem like a cheap gimmick, and gets counted as extra dungeons usually in promos.
That is not a true difficulty slider. No one count a different difficulty a new dungeon in D3. May be MMO should learn from that.
I dont' mind an optional server with permanent death.
I played a few games with optional difficulty and the thing which hit me is usually.... "I hope the developer just design a harder dungeon from scratch instead of making the monster hit 2 times harder... which really is just repeating the same content" etc
I played a few games with optional difficulty and the thing which hit me is usually.... "I hope the developer just design a harder dungeon from scratch instead of making the monster hit 2 times harder... which really is just repeating the same content" etc
That is assuming you need to play the same dungeon at the lower difficulty, and then play it again at the higher difficulty. That is the problem, not the difficulty slider.
Just do what D3 does ... randomize the dungeon. You are not playing the same dungeon again.
Comments
I agree. Also, it isn't a quest, it's a relay race.
Was watching people last night in Aion do that. grab quest run out to a field, run back rinse repeat.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
No. I would like a harsh death penalty / harder difficulty in the game, but so long as the game is a competitive game and doesn't increase your rewards for doing either of those, there is no reason to choose them if they're optional. That works in single player games (though it still feels lackluster unless they reward you appropriately for picking the harder difficulty -- like increased drop rates or more available quests or something,) but if you're out to compete with the best of them, you're not going to gimp yourself.
When a game has significant death penalties, I feel that's all the more reason to make the difficulty harder. You might die a lot, but you won't get punished for it. Likewise, the harsher the death penalty, the easier you can make it, since it's more significant when you do die.
If someone wants to increase/decrease their difficulty in an MMO, they should go hunt the appropriate level mobs/quests. If it's too easy for me, I can go kill monsters 5 levels above mine and actually be rewarded for doing so. Something like turning off quest markers should just be a decision made by the devs. It would be great if they turned it off universally, mind you. It worked exceptionally well back in the day, so I have no doubt it'd work fine now. We'd still have map markers, after all. No doubt a lot of people would just open up quest walkthroughs on a second monitor, though.
That kind of quest wouldn't actually be that bad if you really had to look. It would be a good way to get people to keep an eye out for their surroundings. Even better if you could pick up the underpants even without having the quest, and if you find someone missing their underpants -- hey, Exp and gold!
Pity it doesn't function that way.
Tabula Rasa had a system like that toward the end; kinda like a gambling system. You would put an item up for collateral, which would give you bonuses(XP, I think). The more valuable the item, the bigger the bonus. If you died, you'd lose the item.
STO's difficulty level basically turns on a death penalty where you recieve an injury or ship malfunction if you die/blow up. You can buy repair/med kits to fix it though. Probably alot weaker a DP than the OP would like, though.
Personally, I don't much care for death penalties, particularly the ones designed to weaken you and prevent you from finishing what you are doing for a set time. IMO they're counterproductive. But to each their own.
In one game, my character didn't own a house or wear any armor over leather. In another, I only looted what my character actually uses. On a character I am currently playing, I won't use weapons or gear made of steel or other high end materials.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Quests are just dressed up excuses for combat ... NPC tells me to kill a troll in a cave. My enjoyment is to kill the troll, not to find the cave (which again, is easy and tedious to me).
In fact, better yet, just port me to the cave.
Make it a fun instance/level with multiple strategies and stuff.
Chores are only pointless if you don't dress it up well.
work very well in D3 ... choose your MP power for a risks vs reward slider, and optional PD. More games should use this kind of a system. There is no more complaint about either too hard or easy-mode after the change.
Can we make that into a banner and hang it up in the developer's offices?
If you feel the urge to create a standard fedex walk-across-the-room quest, don't do it!! Have more self respect, man!
See .. you have no idea of how to dress it up.
How about Bioshock Infinite? Many of the "quests" are just walking across the level .... great fun.
How about Hitman Absolution? One of the quest is just to "fetch" your guns ... great fun.
It is about scripting events and atmosphere .. MMO should learn from SP games.
2 questions, so 2 different answers.
1. I already use optional difficulty in MMOs. Plenty have offered harder dungeon/instances and I do them when ever possible. I also do single player games in hard mode first, and after beating it on legendary.
2. No I would not use harsher death penality in an MMO. its a cheap feature. MMOs should be about longevity in a FUN environment while providing a challenge. Being slapped for death does not increase the challenge, it increases the annoyance factor.
If a game is challenging it would remain challenging even if you die and only get a rainbow over your head for it.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
I absolutely would use optional difficulty if implemented correctly. However your design does not account for it being a living MMO world.
I loved the hard mode dungeons in WoW that when first implemented back in BC early days were actually HARD. Only a few percentage of players on each server cleared them because of the coordination required. However these were eventually nerfed so everyone can do them. WoW removed the optional small dungeon diffculty content from the game. I quit shortly after.
I think optional difficulty like EvE does is wonderful. In high security status systems you are mostly safe doing as you please but in low sec you can be ganked with some assistance from guard gates and in null sec you can get ganked freely. When you die you lose your ship and your mods which can be cheap or expensive as you choose.
The optional difficulty in EvE comes in how you play the game.
But if difficulty does not scale with rewards there is not much point in doing it especially in a multiplayer interactive setting like a MMO. I love playing hard or legendary difficulties on single player console games because my achievement in that game is non interactive with other people. However lets say that a similar setting was enabled on an MMO....I would only use the setting optimal for rewards because I need to compete with other players with respect to time. A single player RPG doe snot have this problem and often because there is a finite amount of content is better savored with a longer play experience brought by a harder difficulty. Games where PVP or group PVE designed into them do not have the same reward for savoring the experience.
Risk must equal reward to make an activity worth doing. I am down for more risk, I love it......but it must also be complemented by more reward. Lately games just lower the risk to nothing and increase the rewards anyways and the game quickly becomes a grinding borefest.
Also with the optional quest markers issue: I hate quest markers with a passion because it is lead by the hand design. That said I will not turn them off because it puts me at a competitive disadvantage. If they exist I will use them even if I hate the design choice. That choice was made by the devs.
Realize that in an MMO not everyone plays for the here and now but for the potential of the future...I will play through conditions I hate to reach conditions I like. Not every new MMO player is used to that kind of playstyle and many people I have talked to do not understand my mindset. If it was them, they would turn the quest markers off if they wanted it that way (they almost always say they prefer them on though) rather than endure something they did not like.
I don't think it's being a jerk.
Part of the fun of playing with other people is shared experience. And part of that shared experience is playing by the same rules. It's not fun playing monopoly if every one is playing by some other rules.
The issue with mmo's is that some people don't look at it as ":playing with other people:. They look at it as playing and there happen to be other people sharing the same space.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I am the opposite since I do not see MMORPGs as competitive games (even the PvP parts) and prefer to approach them as positive-gain cooperative games. Thus if handicapping myself, provides a better challenge then it is a net gain for me.
True .. but so what? A living MMO world is not required to make a fun MMO for me. In fact, much of MMO gameplay is instanced, and have little to do with a living MMO world.
In fact, if a living MMO world is an obstacle to fun (for example, a barrier to tune difficulty right for everyone), i say junk it.
I am not a huge fan of dial your own difficulty, or we have 6 dungeons with 3 different difficulties, so we have 18 dungeons!
I want to play a mmo, and it be the same mmo for all, if it is one where every dungeon is hard, so be it. The extra difficulties, seem like a cheap gimmick, and gets counted as extra dungeons usually in promos. It feels lazy to me. Just like stories and other mechanisims usually pair down the starting areas to 1-2 areas, to save time/money. I much prefer having tons of unique areas, like EQ did with most of their races, it adds to the game, and the cost, but I admit it doesn't really mesh with the game jumper/f2p style that things are geared for now...Doesn't mean I don't miss it though, and look for it.
So no, not a huge fan of turning off the xp, markers, or making things harder, it just speaks to making something more generic for me. I think you get a concept, decide how hard you think it needs to be, and go. Using a 1-10 dial for content just doesn't make me think of exploring and finding new things, just seems like you are in a dungeon challenge, not a mmo. Too many mmos level you so quickly, worrying about getting good gear before max level is almost pointless, as you out level drops too quickly, I don't see the point in turning xp off, to play a mmo in a different way than it was designed. I would prefer the designer make it slower for everyone and make levels/gear matter more, not just end game.
I often do similar things. I'll use the weapon and armor that "fit" my character concept, not what gives max damage or max damage mitigation.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Did it in UO, made a guy that was a outdoor survivalist and a alchemist, so I only used leather armor, axes, and made potions to pvp. He wasn't that great, but fun to play. He had the same name as a real life infamous person that was a woodsy/loner/bomber type. I made sure to give him general crafting to make things he would need, cook and so forth. He actually came in handy when people needed some basic crafted items that were in areas that a lot of people didn't do. Foregoing magic hurt the guy's strength in pvp some, but I played him as someone that hated magic use.
It can be fun to not power game sometimes.
That is not a true difficulty slider. No one count a different difficulty a new dungeon in D3. May be MMO should learn from that.
I dont' mind an optional server with permanent death.
I played a few games with optional difficulty and the thing which hit me is usually.... "I hope the developer just design a harder dungeon from scratch instead of making the monster hit 2 times harder... which really is just repeating the same content" etc
That is assuming you need to play the same dungeon at the lower difficulty, and then play it again at the higher difficulty. That is the problem, not the difficulty slider.
Just do what D3 does ... randomize the dungeon. You are not playing the same dungeon again.