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Doing Your Homework Before New Content - PvE

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,934
    Originally posted by Anslem

    tl;dr - I want to play a different MMO without the expectation of my reading guides galore.  I get no one wants to wipe but the go-go-go of the WoW LFR superhighway isn't meshing with my mojo.  No RP.  

    I'm with you. My advice? don't do pick-up groups and get into a good guild.

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  • timidobservertimidobserver Member UncommonPosts: 246
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by timidobserver

    Originally posted by Anslem
    So  supposedly I'm you "average" gamer: mid-30s with full time job.  I play WoW.

     

    Two days or so ago I finally was "geared" enough to enter a particular dungeon which was new to me.

    People couldn't believe that myself and a couple of others had queued up before reading about and watching videos of the encounter.  All sorts of craziness ensued with AoE galore.  When the healing meters were posted and two folks got chewed out (one for overhealing and one for under) and then the vote to kick some warlock -- I'd had enough.

    Researching "endgame."

    Is this the norm of all AAA games these days?  Watching an encounter on YouTube, memorizing you rotation, spamming it and then rinse and repeat?  Figuring what gems/enchants you need from a guide?

    Maybe this is the expectation of the game and it's just not a right fit for me anymore (totally plausible, and totally ok).   I have 0 desire to be so competitive in PVE  that I have to research beforehand and like playing the game for the fact that it is a game.

    Sure I used Thotbot back the early days of WoW but it seems like everything in the game is spelled out for players now.   No trial and error any more or actually talking in-game to a higher level player for help.

    tl;dr - I want to play a different MMO without the expectation of my reading guides galore.  I get no one wants to wipe but the go-go-go of the WoW LFR superhighway isn't meshing with my mojo.  No RP.  


    I find fault with both of you. The people that complained are rude and elitist, but you and your group are selfish.

     

    I always, always find out what type of group I am getting into before the run starts. I never want to hold people back or slip into a group of veterans just to be carried to the completion. If they are looking for a high performance run from veterans that have done the run numerous times, I will leave if I don't meet that qualification.

    People like you basically just want to be carried through runs rather than taking the effort to learn how to carry your own. "Nah, I don't need to look at the guides. You guys already know how to do it, so I'll just follow you to the end."


    I think you may be missing the point. At least the reason I dislike this attitude of "Know your dungeons!" so prevalent in today's MMOs is that I play to experience the game, not follow someone else's footsteps.

     

    This is a whole different story than your "I'll just coast through" scenario you set up. Like you, though, I will find out what kind of group it is. More and more often, groups consist of "Know the dungeon!" types, rather than the "Let's explore and figure this out ourselves, together." types that the majority of groups used to be like.

    Do you see the difference?

    I completely understand disliking that attitude, but that doesn't mean you should impose yourself on those that do have that attitude. Find players with an attitude similar to yours. Finding a good guild can usually help with this.

    A selfish player just jumps in a group and expects to have their playstyle accommodated. If they are clueless, they expect the people that they are grouped with to deal with it. Judging from his post, the OP fits this category. A good player speaks to those that they are grouped with in order to make sure it is a good fit.

    In other words, I am not saying that anyone has to change their playstyle. I am simply saying that you'll get less grief if you ensure that your playstyle is compatible with the playstyle of your group before you are half way through the run.

    Rule of thumb: Most elitist players are not ashamed of it it all, so you should be able to figure out if you are in an elitist group with just a few questions.

  • AnslemAnslem Member CommonPosts: 215

    Selfish is such a strong word to use for someone who doesn't want to look up her exact rotations and watch YouTube videos explaining the fight.  

    With the little time I have to log on to WoW, I like to spend it playing not researching.  

    But I can see how a group of raiders would view it that way.

    Thanks for all the feedback.  Happy gaming!

    Played: Ultima Online - DaoC - WoW -

  • Aliantha_AngelAliantha_Angel Member UncommonPosts: 225
    Originally posted by Anslem

     

    tl;dr - I want to play a different MMO without the expectation of my reading guides galore.  I get no one wants to wipe but the go-go-go of the WoW LFR superhighway isn't meshing with my mojo.  No RP.  

    You're not alone.  I've been gaming since pre-UO and I've had it too.  Now I play the game within the game.  I don't care if I'm not in with the elite crowd, I refuse to alt-tab to look up locations or rotations.  I play to have fun and look for people who want to learn and experience the encounters rather than knowing where to stand and what to press to win.  I'm NOT knocking the other play styles, I just choose my own path and understand that there may be some things I won't get to see or do for a long time and that's ok with me. 

    When I do know the mechanics of fights and go in with new people I keep my mouth shut and let them learn and enjoy.  There's no real world prize for me for being able to clear a dungeon in 12 minutes or less or knowing where to find every shortcut via google.  To each their own, but you're not alone.

  • AnslemAnslem Member CommonPosts: 215
    Originally posted by alicorn
    Originally posted by Anslem

     

    tl;dr - I want to play a different MMO without the expectation of my reading guides galore.  I get no one wants to wipe but the go-go-go of the WoW LFR superhighway isn't meshing with my mojo.  No RP.  

    You're not alone.  I've been gaming since pre-UO and I've had it too.  Now I play the game within the game.  I don't care if I'm not in with the elite crowd, I refuse to alt-tab to look up locations or rotations.  I play to have fun and look for people who want to learn and experience the encounters rather than knowing where to stand and what to press to win.  I'm NOT knocking the other play styles, I just choose my own path and understand that there may be some things I won't get to see or do for a long time and that's ok with me. 

    When I do know the mechanics of fights and go in with new people I keep my mouth shut and let them learn and enjoy.  There's no real world prize for me for being able to clear a dungeon in 12 minutes or less or knowing where to find every shortcut via google.  To each their own, but you're not alone.

    Right - same here.

     

    Been sticking mostly to casual PvP (bgs) in WoW and it's doing it for me, for the time. :)

    Played: Ultima Online - DaoC - WoW -

  • timidobservertimidobserver Member UncommonPosts: 246
    Originally posted by Anslem

    Selfish is such a strong word to use for someone who doesn't want to look up her exact rotations and watch YouTube videos explaining the fight.  

    With the little time I have to log on to WoW, I like to spend it playing not researching.  

    But I can see how a group of raiders would view it that way.

    Thanks for all the feedback.  Happy gaming!

     

    You must not be reading. Selfish isn't describing someone who doesn't want to look up rotations or watch videos. Selfish is someone that imposes themselves on others that do.

    The only thing I am suggesting is that you find groups that match your playstyle, rather than expecting groups that don't match your playstyle to conform. 

    It isn't t hat hard to ask if your lack of experience is okay and whether they'd like you to leave or not.

  • AnslemAnslem Member CommonPosts: 215
    Originally posted by timidobserver
    Originally posted by Anslem

    Selfish is such a strong word to use for someone who doesn't want to look up her exact rotations and watch YouTube videos explaining the fight.  

    With the little time I have to log on to WoW, I like to spend it playing not researching.  

    But I can see how a group of raiders would view it that way.

    Thanks for all the feedback.  Happy gaming!

     

    You must not be reading. Selfish isn't describing someone who doesn't want to look up rotations or watch videos. Selfish is someone that imposes themselves on others that do.

    The only thing I am suggesting is that you find groups that match your playstyle, rather than expecting groups that don't match your playstyle to conform. 

    It isn't t hat hard to ask if your lack of experience is okay and whether they'd like you to leave or not.

    I was definitely reading - just took it out of context. =D Apologies.

    It certainly isn't difficult to ask if the LFR peeps mind having a new player, just never occurred to me to do so.

    Played: Ultima Online - DaoC - WoW -

  • imsoenthusedimsoenthused Member UncommonPosts: 65
    Originally posted by Anslem
    Originally posted by timidobserver
    Originally posted by Anslem

    Selfish is such a strong word to use for someone who doesn't want to look up her exact rotations and watch YouTube videos explaining the fight.  

    With the little time I have to log on to WoW, I like to spend it playing not researching.  

    But I can see how a group of raiders would view it that way.

    Thanks for all the feedback.  Happy gaming!

     

    You must not be reading. Selfish isn't describing someone who doesn't want to look up rotations or watch videos. Selfish is someone that imposes themselves on others that do.

    The only thing I am suggesting is that you find groups that match your playstyle, rather than expecting groups that don't match your playstyle to conform. 

    It isn't t hat hard to ask if your lack of experience is okay and whether they'd like you to leave or not.

    I was definitely reading - just took it out of context. =D Apologies.

    It certainly isn't difficult to ask if the LFR peeps mind having a new player, just never occurred to me to do so.

    In fairness, you don't have to. The other players are just as responsible for asking if everyone is experienced and knows the dungeon if that's of concern to them. Their assumptions aren't magically valid or something.

  • SirPKsAlotSirPKsAlot Member Posts: 224

    This totally takes away from the experience in my opinion. I remember back in the days when I was a hardcore gamer and we were one of the guilds at the forefront of beating new content. The magic of the game was figuring out the encounters yourself and the feeling of admiration and pride when you finally beat it.  A few years into my gaming career I switched guilds and we had a guild leader or a couple people like you who would watch videos on how to beat the encounter and totally take the discovery of the encounter away from us. It went from an engaging problem solving challenge to a "press 1 press 2 stand here" kind of thing.  It's like the difference between coming up with your own painting and doing a paint by numbers.

     

    Raids and dungeons to me is not about the loot, it's about working with other people to solve a problem. Teamwork. The loot is just the reward and it's ever so much more rewarding when you don't have some know it all telling you exactly how this encounter is going to go and what you have to do in your role. The pride comes after you and your friends figure that out for yourselves and work together to come up with a strategy to beat what lies in store for you.

    image
    Currently playing: Eldevin Online as a Deadly Assassin

  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Member UncommonPosts: 1,973
    I think it depends on the game you play if you need "homework" beforehand.  Some games have hard core dungeons and, yes, we should prob research.  I'm sorta lazy and don't do a lot of research but I'm also that good.  It takes me no time to pick up on what is suppose to be done.  It sort of takes the fun out to know everything in advance.  I have never been yelled at for messing up because I don't.  I mean outside of an accidental d/c and for some unk reason they still forgive me.  But I have seen over and over this party disintegration where everyone is giving everyone ADVICE.  Usually rudely.  Unless your team mate is obviously floundering or asking for help just lay off already.  You're suppose to think of your party like some happy little family.  Not a troll fest.  


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,387


    Originally posted by timidobserver

    Originally posted by Anslem
    Selfish is such a strong word to use for someone who doesn't want to look up her exact rotations and watch YouTube videos explaining the fight.With the little time I have to log on to WoW, I like to spend it playing not researching.But I can see how a group of raiders would view it that way.Thanks for all the feedback.  Happy gaming!
     
    You must not be reading. Selfish isn't describing someone who doesn't want to look up rotations or watch videos. Selfish is someone that imposes themselves on others that do.The only thing I am suggesting is that you find groups that match your playstyle, rather than expecting groups that don't match your playstyle to conform. It isn't t hat hard to ask if your lack of experience is okay and whether they'd like you to leave or not.
    What I am reading is that you see a player desiring to explore and experience a dungeon as being "selfish" and "imposing their playstyles on others", yet the reverse you do not see equally.

    Your use of the word "selfish" indicates your view on the topic. Especially when you see it only one way and not the other. You also decided to call a player who did not "conform" to others' playstyles as "lazy."

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,919

    A tricky one, we need difficulty and complexity in MMOs. But if you put it in, then players make guides and people are expected to read the guides. It used to be done by trial and error, now you are expected to know the dance before you hit the dance floor.

    The only answer I can give is randomly generated dungeons. So any guide would only give you a flavour of what the dungeon was about. But the problem there is that as soon as you mention the word "random" it brings up huge quality control issues. A complex, random dungeon is going to have a lot of such issues.

  • PyatraPyatra Member Posts: 644
    Originally posted by timidobserver
    Originally posted by Anslem

    Selfish is such a strong word to use for someone who doesn't want to look up her exact rotations and watch YouTube videos explaining the fight.  

    With the little time I have to log on to WoW, I like to spend it playing not researching.  

    But I can see how a group of raiders would view it that way.

    Thanks for all the feedback.  Happy gaming!

     

    You must not be reading. Selfish isn't describing someone who doesn't want to look up rotations or watch videos. Selfish is someone that imposes themselves on others that do.

    The only thing I am suggesting is that you find groups that match your playstyle, rather than expecting groups that don't match your playstyle to conform. 

    It isn't t hat hard to ask if your lack of experience is okay and whether they'd like you to leave or not.

    Edit: Decided to redact statement, I will not be feeding trolls today.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot

    A tricky one, we need difficulty and complexity in MMOs. But if you put it in, then players make guides and people are expected to read the guides. It used to be done by trial and error, now you are expected to know the dance before you hit the dance floor.

    The only answer I can give is randomly generated dungeons. So any guide would only give you a flavour of what the dungeon was about. But the problem there is that as soon as you mention the word "random" it brings up huge quality control issues. A complex, random dungeon is going to have a lot of such issues.

    Well, D3 has random dungeons, and it still have tons of guides. You may still get kicked if you come in with a toon that cannot carry your weight (say doing no DPS).

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky


    What I am reading is that you see a player desiring to explore and experience a dungeon as being "selfish" and "imposing their playstyles on others", yet the reverse you do not see equally.

    Well, everyone is "selfish" when they don't agree with you of how to play. I suppose you can always use the "need of the many outweigh the need of the few, or the one" rule.

    If 4 do not want to explore, the one is "selfish" to slow down 4 people. If 4 people want to explore, the one is "selfish" if he want to push ahead.

    The best solution is the "quit" button. If i play with a group, if i see anything i don't like, i hit "quit". There are millions of people on the internet, there is no reason to tolerate anything. Better yet, just play solo.

     

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,387


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    What I am reading is that you see a player desiring to explore and experience a dungeon as being "selfish" and "imposing their playstyles on others", yet the reverse you do not see equally.
    Well, everyone is "selfish" when they don't agree with you of how to play. I suppose you can always use the "need of the many outweigh the need of the few, or the one" rule.If 4 do not want to explore, the one is "selfish" to slow down 4 people. If 4 people want to explore, the one is "selfish" if he want to push ahead.The best solution is the "quit" button. If i play with a group, if i see anything i don't like, i hit "quit". There are millions of people on the internet, there is no reason to tolerate anything. Better yet, just play solo.
    Oh, I agree. The quit button is a player's friend :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • timidobservertimidobserver Member UncommonPosts: 246
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by timidobserver

    Originally posted by Anslem
    Selfish is such a strong word to use for someone who doesn't want to look up her exact rotations and watch YouTube videos explaining the fight.

     

    With the little time I have to log on to WoW, I like to spend it playing not researching.

    But I can see how a group of raiders would view it that way.

    Thanks for all the feedback.  Happy gaming!


     
    You must not be reading. Selfish isn't describing someone who doesn't want to look up rotations or watch videos. Selfish is someone that imposes themselves on others that do.

     

    The only thing I am suggesting is that you find groups that match your playstyle, rather than expecting groups that don't match your playstyle to conform. 

    It isn't t hat hard to ask if your lack of experience is okay and whether they'd like you to leave or not.


    What I am reading is that you see a player desiring to explore and experience a dungeon as being "selfish" and "imposing their playstyles on others", yet the reverse you do not see equally.

     

    Your use of the word "selfish" indicates your view on the topic. Especially when you see it only one way and not the other. You also decided to call a player who did not "conform" to others' playstyles as "lazy."

    What you are reading is not what I am saying. I am calling the lack of effort to find a compatible group selfish. I am not suggesting that anyone change what they enjoy. If you want to bumble through a dungeon for 3 hours and finally barely finish it, you have the right to do so and enjoy it. What I am calling selfish is not being social and or vocal enough to confirm that your playstyle is compatible with the rest of the group. If you find yourself in a veteran high-performance/speed run/elitist group and that isn't your thing, you should leave it.

    I guees I am the only person that is picky about who they group with. I like efficient groups but not elitist groups and, contrary to popular belief, there is a thin line between the two. If I find myself in an elitist group, I leave rather than tagging along for the grief and then going to whine on forums about it.

    Yes, it is more selfish for the minority members of the group to expect the majority to conform. If an elitist,stop watch checking guru joins a majority casual group, he deserves the grief he is going to get. If a casual, spend 5 hours in a 30 minute dungeon "exploring" type joins a super speed run, dps meter checking, elitist group, they deserve the grief they get.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,919
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky


    What I am reading is that you see a player desiring to explore and experience a dungeon as being "selfish" and "imposing their playstyles on others", yet the reverse you do not see equally.

    Well, everyone is "selfish" when they don't agree with you of how to play. I suppose you can always use the "need of the many outweigh the need of the few, or the one" rule.

    If 4 do not want to explore, the one is "selfish" to slow down 4 people. If 4 people want to explore, the one is "selfish" if he want to push ahead.

    The best solution is the "quit" button. If i play with a group, if i see anything i don't like, i hit "quit". There are millions of people on the internet, there is no reason to tolerate anything. Better yet, just play solo.

    Better yet, join a guild. 

     

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky


    What I am reading is that you see a player desiring to explore and experience a dungeon as being "selfish" and "imposing their playstyles on others", yet the reverse you do not see equally.

    Well, everyone is "selfish" when they don't agree with you of how to play. I suppose you can always use the "need of the many outweigh the need of the few, or the one" rule.

    If 4 do not want to explore, the one is "selfish" to slow down 4 people. If 4 people want to explore, the one is "selfish" if he want to push ahead.

    The best solution is the "quit" button. If i play with a group, if i see anything i don't like, i hit "quit". There are millions of people on the internet, there is no reason to tolerate anything. Better yet, just play solo.

    Better yet, join a guild. 

     

    What makes you think that people in guilds aren't just as assholish as people outside of guilds?

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky


    What I am reading is that you see a player desiring to explore and experience a dungeon as being "selfish" and "imposing their playstyles on others", yet the reverse you do not see equally.

    Well, everyone is "selfish" when they don't agree with you of how to play. I suppose you can always use the "need of the many outweigh the need of the few, or the one" rule.

    If 4 do not want to explore, the one is "selfish" to slow down 4 people. If 4 people want to explore, the one is "selfish" if he want to push ahead.

    The best solution is the "quit" button. If i play with a group, if i see anything i don't like, i hit "quit". There are millions of people on the internet, there is no reason to tolerate anything. Better yet, just play solo.

    Better yet, join a guild. 

     

    nah .. that is worse. i may feel obligated to talk to them, or help them, or join their group. Even worse, they expect you to commit time to play with time.

    The "quit" button is way better.

     

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,919

    The cynicism of you two!

    You are actually making a case to not play any multiplayer games, you cannot totally avoid interaction, even if you don't group. If so many of the player base are as awful as you make out we should avoid MMO's at all costs.

    Yes Nari, some players online may even come to regard you as a friend. Shocking isn't it? :D

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