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So Gabe, tell us how Microsoft is so evil again,..

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  • lugallugal Member UncommonPosts: 671
    Originally posted by Hulluck
    Originally posted by Rhoklaw
    Originally posted by Hulluck
    You are correct. It's not that big of a deal on it's own. However it really stood out to me because Gabe has ranted on and on (in the past) about how bad Microsoft for whatever reason. 

    Well, apparently Gabe explained why VAC uses it, what was MS reason?

    I don't care if he can justify it to make sense to him. It could be used to collect metrics on people. No doubt they are collecting them  in some form and extent using whatever method. Most companies online probably do. There's 0 reason for any of his software to be looking at what sites I visit, ever. Though when thinking about it does it matter anymore?  I don't know that he's specifically harped on MS for this.  Though he's harped on them for similar stuff and their so called bad habits in the past. He's caught a lot of flak for those videos as well.  What site I visit doesn't determine if I am doing wrong or even what my intent is.

     

    I use Steam a little. This isn't really a "I hate Steam sort of thing."  More like a Gabe has said we shouldn't trust a company like Microsoft for whatever dam reason but when it comes to Gabe, everyone should trust him to be on the up and up just because he says so.  It just rubbed me the wrong way for someone wanting to break everyone's bonds from oppressive companies like Microsoft.

     

    It is me making an mountain out of an ant hill. It's just funny.. Gabe,"Trust me, don't trust them".

     

     

    So you refuse to accept Gabe's explanation of the system they have in place, when most appear to now accept his explanation, and bash Gabe and his company. Wouldn't that make you an idiot?

    Roses are red
    Violets are blue
    The reviewer has a mishapen head
    Which means his opinion is skewed
    ...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley

  • AzzrasAzzras Member UncommonPosts: 407
    Originally posted by TheRealDarkeus

    You know what the difference is?  One word: Trust.

     

    People trust Valve.  People do not trust Microsoft.  

     

    And it is as simple as that.

    You trust Valve?

    Not the brightest idea.

    image
  • HulluckHulluck Member UncommonPosts: 830
    Originally posted by lugal
    Originally posted by Hulluck
    Originally posted by Rhoklaw
    Originally posted by Hulluck
    You are correct. It's not that big of a deal on it's own. However it really stood out to me because Gabe has ranted on and on (in the past) about how bad Microsoft for whatever reason. 

    Well, apparently Gabe explained why VAC uses it, what was MS reason?

    I don't care if he can justify it to make sense to him. It could be used to collect metrics on people. No doubt they are collecting them  in some form and extent using whatever method. Most companies online probably do. There's 0 reason for any of his software to be looking at what sites I visit, ever. Though when thinking about it does it matter anymore?  I don't know that he's specifically harped on MS for this.  Though he's harped on them for similar stuff and their so called bad habits in the past. He's caught a lot of flak for those videos as well.  What site I visit doesn't determine if I am doing wrong or even what my intent is.

     

    I use Steam a little. This isn't really a "I hate Steam sort of thing."  More like a Gabe has said we shouldn't trust a company like Microsoft for whatever dam reason but when it comes to Gabe, everyone should trust him to be on the up and up just because he says so.  It just rubbed me the wrong way for someone wanting to break everyone's bonds from oppressive companies like Microsoft.

     

    It is me making an mountain out of an ant hill. It's just funny.. Gabe,"Trust me, don't trust them".

     

     

    So you refuse to accept Gabe's explanation of the system they have in place, when most appear to now accept his explanation, and bash Gabe and his company. Wouldn't that make you an idiot?

    You're a bit fucking late to the conversation at this point.  Wouldn't that make you an idiot. If you aren't going to read the thread and the half a dozen times I've eaten crow.  Then what's that make you..

  • EpiconEpicon Member Posts: 121
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Epicon

    As much as I enjoy stream (115 games on there). I think Valve fanboys are some of the worst out there. Right up there with all the GW2's fanboys at launch.

    I wish I could say I was being trolled by a bunch of them. But do you have any idea how many fanboys have told me and ranted to others with, "Steam is so much better than Origin and Microsoft, Steam uses no DRM."

    That comment sums it up, as a whole what their thinking is, I don't even like any Valve games. I have no love for Microsoft either, however I wish Gabe would stop acting like, he is somehow better than Microsoft and other businesses, that he isn't out to make money. 

    Steam, is all about making money and in fact sometimes even more so, it's a living breathing DRM system just like the others. Okay maybe you can buy more shit indie games on there, over most other places, but they don't even offer returns. Origin, you know the evil EA, does. Imagine that.

    I remember Gabe going off, that when Windows 8 was launched, you would only be able to play Microsoft games, or partners of them. The rest would be locked. That Games will run badly off windows 8, and that Linux is the future.

    Nice to see all that happened... He sounds like the fanboys.

     

    The misperception of what Gabe said isn't limited to the fanboys.

     

    Okay, so did I have the misperception of Steam being DRM too?  That Steam doesn't allow returns (outside of a game being completely broke and sometimes not)? Like it or not dude, I can buy Titan fall, play it 24 hours, say it sucks, and Origin will give me my money back. They gave me a refund on Battlefield 4.  

    How about security breaches?

    My point is regardless if I had misperception on what Gabe said involving windows 8.

    I don't see how steam offers different tactics over a company like Microsoft. He even collects information with his software the same way. To me it reminds me of my former friend who cheated on his wife, she cheated on him and he got completely pissed. Then it turned out he was doing the same exact thing she was, well before her but that was okay some how, because he did it for "different reasons".

    My point is, if Gabe is going to attack Microsoft, and Steam fans attack them and Origin. The software, should really attempt to do something different or at least have a different business plan on making money. I don't see where it does, and I don't see how him collecting information is any different.

    "Origin collects information off your computer! FUCKING EA"

    "Oh I love steam, good thing it doesn't do that"

    Trust me I have heard that tons of times.  

    EDIT

    Look I'm not going to trust any company. Just because I like their games and play them. The only thing, I will trust is the fact, they want to make money, and lots of it.

    Now how they go about doing this? That can add value to a publisher or developer to me personally. 

    But unless, I know the people running the company personally? Worked for them getting a inside view?

    I am not going to trust them, and lay in traffic for them in the forums like some people do based on brand loyalty.

    At the end of the day, these companies don't give two shits about you. They just want your money and to do whatever song and dance they can to get it from you.

     

     

    "What tastes like purple?"

  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,297
    Dunno what the big deal about privacy is. It went out of the window the moment the internet was invented. It's the price you pay for all this convenience. Like Quiz said.. we give access to maybe a hundred executables each time we turn on our computer. They could get all the info they want. It's just about trust... and you know what? For the price reduction steam offers on digital purchases, I'm happy to trust them. Hell, I'm happy to let them use my statistics for whatever they like as long as it's anonymous. Steam is the cheapest and most convenient gaming platform ever made.. people are just getting spoilt. I mean, Farcry 3 is on sale at £3.74 now.. cheapest I can find for consoles £12.94. It's a third of the price. Gabe can do whatever the fuck he likes with my anonymous information as long as he keeps bringing me these awesome deals and keeps the community cheat free. It's a small price to pay for a better and cheaper gaming experience.
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • HulluckHulluck Member UncommonPosts: 830
    Originally posted by Vannor
    Dunno what the big deal about privacy is. It went out of the window the moment the internet was invented. It's the price you pay for all this convenience. Like Quiz said.. we give access to maybe a hundred executables each time we turn on our computer. They could get all the info they want. It's just about trust... and you know what? For the price reduction steam offers on digital purchases, I'm happy to trust them. Hell, I'm happy to let them use my statistics for whatever they like as long as it's anonymous. Steam is the cheapest and most convenient gaming platform ever made.. people are just getting spoilt. I mean, Farcry 3 is on sale at £3.74 now.. cheapest I can find for consoles £12.94. It's a third of the price. Gabe can do whatever the fuck he likes with my anonymous information as long as he keeps bringing me these awesome deals and keeps the community cheat free. It's a small price to pay for a better and cheaper gaming experience.

    Me I am a fairly private person always have been.  I am more talkative online than in person. Notice my post count. But what you are saying and convenience is why I just went on and started using Steam. In the big scheme of things as was point out this is also very small potatoes. I guess as already pointed out and I've also been given a reasonable reason Steam tends to get a pass while others wouldn't.  The one person though talking about his WIndows 8 store rant is the video I remember from whenever that actually caused the knee jerk reaction from me.

     

    Good gawd.. Learned my lesson holy shit.

     

    I'd like to add that my footprint is actually extremely small.  My pc is used for 2 things read forums / youtube, games. 100 .exes just at start up? That's crazy.  Not even close to that. Counting Windows 8.1 and everything that goes with it as 1. 

    Not the 3rd party programs like my Comodo, Geforce Experience, dsiplay managment ect.  Steam often gets beat by sales.  It has decent sales from time to time but is regularly beaten as well.   IsThereAnyDeal.com is good for finding the best deals. There's even an addon for it that shows lowest price when looking at the STeam store in your browser. Though got overload towards the end of last winter sale.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910
    Originally posted by Epicon
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Epicon

    As much as I enjoy stream (115 games on there). I think Valve fanboys are some of the worst out there. Right up there with all the GW2's fanboys at launch.

    I wish I could say I was being trolled by a bunch of them. But do you have any idea how many fanboys have told me and ranted to others with, "Steam is so much better than Origin and Microsoft, Steam uses no DRM."

    That comment sums it up, as a whole what their thinking is, I don't even like any Valve games. I have no love for Microsoft either, however I wish Gabe would stop acting like, he is somehow better than Microsoft and other businesses, that he isn't out to make money. 

    Steam, is all about making money and in fact sometimes even more so, it's a living breathing DRM system just like the others. Okay maybe you can buy more shit indie games on there, over most other places, but they don't even offer returns. Origin, you know the evil EA, does. Imagine that.

    I remember Gabe going off, that when Windows 8 was launched, you would only be able to play Microsoft games, or partners of them. The rest would be locked. That Games will run badly off windows 8, and that Linux is the future.

    Nice to see all that happened... He sounds like the fanboys.

     

    The misperception of what Gabe said isn't limited to the fanboys.

     

    Okay, so did I have the misperception of Steam being DRM too?  That Steam doesn't allow returns (outside of a game being completely broke and sometimes not)? Like it or not dude, I can buy Titan fall, play it 24 hours, say it sucks, and Origin will give me my money back. They gave me a refund on Battlefield 4.  

    How about security breaches?

    My point is regardless if I had misperception on what Gabe said involving windows 8.

    I don't see how steam offers different tactics over a company like Microsoft. He even collects information with his software the same way. To me it reminds me of my former friend who cheated on his wife, she cheated on him and he got completely pissed. Then it turned out he was doing the same exact thing she was, well before her but that was okay some how, because he did it for "different reasons".

    My point is, if Gabe is going to attack Microsoft, and Steam fans attack them and Origin. The software, should really attempt to do something different or at least have a different business plan on making money. I don't see where it does, and I don't see how him collecting information is any different.

    "Origin collects information off your computer! FUCKING EA"

    "Oh I love steam, good thing it doesn't do that"

    Trust me I have heard that tons of times.  

     

    I was talking about what Gabe said about Windows 8.  His early statements about the pre-release copies of Windows he had were very doom and gloom.  There were several articles from Microsoft watchers about how to hack Windows 8 so that other software could be installed without having to go through Microsoft's store because the built in functionality did not allow it.  Later, closer to the release of Windows, Gabe was invoking a "slippery slope" argument concerning Microsoft's use of a vendor locked market because Microsoft backed off on the whole Tablet on a Desktop thing and it was obvious that people could just install software like they always did and that Steam would work just like it always has.  He kept up the "slippery slope" argument though.  It's the basis for the whole Linux and SteamOS initiative at Valve.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • iridescenceiridescence Member UncommonPosts: 1,552

    Only idiots fully trust any big corporations. They're all out for themselves.

     

  • lugallugal Member UncommonPosts: 671
    Originally posted by Hulluck
    Originally posted by lugal
    Originally posted by Hulluck
    Originally posted by Rhoklaw
    Originally posted by Hulluck
    You are correct. It's not that big of a deal on it's own. However it really stood out to me because Gabe has ranted on and on (in the past) about how bad Microsoft for whatever reason. 

    Well, apparently Gabe explained why VAC uses it, what was MS reason?

    I don't care if he can justify it to make sense to him. It could be used to collect metrics on people. No doubt they are collecting them  in some form and extent using whatever method. Most companies online probably do. There's 0 reason for any of his software to be looking at what sites I visit, ever. Though when thinking about it does it matter anymore?  I don't know that he's specifically harped on MS for this.  Though he's harped on them for similar stuff and their so called bad habits in the past. He's caught a lot of flak for those videos as well.  What site I visit doesn't determine if I am doing wrong or even what my intent is.

     

    I use Steam a little. This isn't really a "I hate Steam sort of thing."  More like a Gabe has said we shouldn't trust a company like Microsoft for whatever dam reason but when it comes to Gabe, everyone should trust him to be on the up and up just because he says so.  It just rubbed me the wrong way for someone wanting to break everyone's bonds from oppressive companies like Microsoft.

     

    It is me making an mountain out of an ant hill. It's just funny.. Gabe,"Trust me, don't trust them".

     

     

    So you refuse to accept Gabe's explanation of the system they have in place, when most appear to now accept his explanation, and bash Gabe and his company. Wouldn't that make you an idiot?

    You're a bit fucking late to the conversation at this point.  Wouldn't that make you an idiot. If you aren't going to read the thread and the half a dozen times I've eaten crow.  Then what's that make you..

    Lazy.

    Roses are red
    Violets are blue
    The reviewer has a mishapen head
    Which means his opinion is skewed
    ...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley

  • HulluckHulluck Member UncommonPosts: 830
    Originally posted by lugal
    Originally posted by Hulluck
    Originally posted by lugal
    Originally posted by Hulluck
    Originally posted by Rhoklaw
    Originally posted by Hulluck

    Lazy.

    I think not. Double standard much? Just stay the hell out of it if you aren't going to at least skim it decently and can't even post anything witty at that.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 23,119
    Originally posted by Epicon

    I wish I could say I was being trolled by a bunch of them. But do you have any idea how many fanboys have told me and ranted to others with, "Steam is so much better than Origin and Microsoft, Steam uses no DRM."

    Not all DRM is created equal.  MMORPGs having to connect to the game server to play is basically a form of DRM.  DRM is only problematic when it inconveniences paying customers for no good technical non-DRM reason.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 23,119
    Originally posted by Vannor
    Dunno what the big deal about privacy is. It went out of the window the moment the internet was invented. It's the price you pay for all this convenience. Like Quiz said.. we give access to maybe a hundred executables each time we turn on our computer. They could get all the info they want. It's just about trust... and you know what? For the price reduction steam offers on digital purchases, I'm happy to trust them. Hell, I'm happy to let them use my statistics for whatever they like as long as it's anonymous. Steam is the cheapest and most convenient gaming platform ever made.. people are just getting spoilt. I mean, Farcry 3 is on sale at £3.74 now.. cheapest I can find for consoles £12.94. It's a third of the price. Gabe can do whatever the fuck he likes with my anonymous information as long as he keeps bringing me these awesome deals and keeps the community cheat free. It's a small price to pay for a better and cheaper gaming experience.

    Not all companies are equal on privacy matters.  Facebook has a history of changing privacy settings so that information that you had previously marked as private becomes open for all the world to see.  Most companies don't do things that egregiously awful.

    Being online doesn't mean you can't have any privacy at all.  But there are trade-offs and risks involved.  Some risks stem from the potential that a company will get hacked and have your information stolen even when the company tried to keep it secure.

  • BraindomeBraindome Member UncommonPosts: 959

    As long as it stops cheaters and doesn't log information for other than cheating I don't see a problem. The only reason I can even see this coming up is some cheaters got their Steam account banned and now feel butthurt.

    Anyone who tries to go ahead with making this a big deal is either a cheater or someone who doesn't remember cheaters back in the day. It's necessary. You don't want cheating to be like it was back about 12 years ago, trust me "in case you don't remember".

    Btw did I mention all cheaters can rot? I really have no tolerance for cheaters or people that condone it.

  • HulluckHulluck Member UncommonPosts: 830
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by Vannor
    Dunno what the big deal about privacy is. It went out of the window the moment the internet was invented. It's the price you pay for all this convenience. Like Quiz said.. we give access to maybe a hundred executables each time we turn on our computer. They could get all the info they want. It's just about trust... and you know what? For the price reduction steam offers on digital purchases, I'm happy to trust them. Hell, I'm happy to let them use my statistics for whatever they like as long as it's anonymous. Steam is the cheapest and most convenient gaming platform ever made.. people are just getting spoilt. I mean, Farcry 3 is on sale at £3.74 now.. cheapest I can find for consoles £12.94. It's a third of the price. Gabe can do whatever the fuck he likes with my anonymous information as long as he keeps bringing me these awesome deals and keeps the community cheat free. It's a small price to pay for a better and cheaper gaming experience.

    Not all companies are equal on privacy matters.  Facebook has a history of changing privacy settings so that information that you had previously marked as private becomes open for all the world to see.  Most companies don't do things that egregiously awful.

    Being online doesn't mean you can't have any privacy at all.  But there are trade-offs and risks involved.  Some risks stem from the potential that a company will get hacked and have your information stolen even when the company tried to keep it secure.

    Facebook is fucking horrid as far as protecting users or the average person goes.  I've had someone use my identity maliciously. Part of what they did was creating a FB account and dupe others into really believing it was me for about a year. Caused a lot of damage in my private life and others because people believed this person was me. People I had not talked to in a long time but were family or close at one point. They also stole from me during this time period, a lot!  I didn't know about it the FB account because I don't use sites like FB.  I guess it pissed me off some more that none of my family ever mentioned me having an account for over a year....

    When FB flatout refused to do anything about it, I boiled. They flatout told me and my family who tried to resolve this part of the violation "No it was just another user with the same name." I shit you not. I lost it. Ignoring the fact that everyone on his friends list were people from my life only, which contacted them as well.  The system was so automated was part of the problem.  ANY MMORPG OR GAME DEVELOPER HAS BETTER CS THAN THEM. Especially WHEN IT COMES TO SHIT LIKE THIS, IMO.

    It was someone from my past. A person I did nothing to. They just use and steal from people. Really huge piece of shit. I'll be honest after dealing with FB trying to get that end of it resolved not including the other stuff they did, Had I saw that person in real life. That would have been bad. Really bad.. It actually kind of scared me a bit just how far I would have been willing to go at that point if I saw him. (I don't mind admitting it at this point because it's a year later or so later) Still get pissed when thinking about it but not nearly as hot as I did for the first 6 months of all this shit happening. Huge violation on so many levels. Theft of property (cars). Stole from other family members. Accounts still there but it's neutered. Resolved some of the other stuff they did during that time as well. But they stole a lot.

    I guess the worst part of it though since material things can be replaced. Is the fact that someone who had no other way of contacting me from my past may have actually believed that to be me. I'll never know if that happened or not. I don't know if someone from my past had tried contacting me and thought that was me.  People ask why I like my privacy.. This is exactly why. Because of pieces of shit like this guy who knew enough about me in real life and was part of my life at one point albeit 10 years ago.

     

    Trade-offs; good word.

     

     

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 23,119

    So you understand why I cited Facebook as a severe offender on privacy matters.  I didn't pick the site at random.

    I take a human-centric view of privacy concerns.  In my view, privacy breaches are necessarily about a human seeing stuff that you want to keep private.  If computers process your private data in such a way as to make it highly implausible that any human will ever see it, that's not a privacy breach.  Computers leaving data where it's unreasonably easy for another human to access it is a problem, though; that's actually the biggest concern with MMORPGs, as some of them don't lock down your personal information very well.

    If computers processing your private data were a privacy breach in itself, then you'd have to cite things like automated hard drive backups or disk defragmentation as violating your privacy, as those do read your data.  Surely that can't be right.  I don't see a privacy problem assuming that Valve's algorithm does what they say it does:  never transmitting anything about your DNS cache other than matching certain cheat sites, and even then, only checking when they had other reason to believe that you were using those cheat sites.  That's the sort of thing that a company might reasonably ask you to consent to in order to use their service.

  • HulluckHulluck Member UncommonPosts: 830
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    So you understand why I cited Facebook as a severe offender on privacy matters.  I didn't pick the site at random.

    I take a human-centric view of privacy concerns.  In my view, privacy breaches are necessarily about a human seeing stuff that you want to keep private.  If computers process your private data in such a way as to make it highly implausible that any human will ever see it, that's not a privacy breach.  Computers leaving data where it's unreasonably easy for another human to access it is a problem, though; that's actually the biggest concern with MMORPGs, as some of them don't lock down your personal information very well.

    If computers processing your private data were a privacy breach in itself, then you'd have to cite things like automated hard drive backups or disk defragmentation as violating your privacy, as those do read your data.  Surely that can't be right.  I don't see a privacy problem assuming that Valve's algorithm does what they say it does:  never transmitting anything about your DNS cache other than matching certain cheat sites, and even then, only checking when they had other reason to believe that you were using those cheat sites.  That's the sort of thing that a company might reasonably ask you to consent to in order to use their service.

    I agreed with that early on.  Admitted it was me making a mountain out of a mole hill.

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