Because we've all grown attached to our characters, we've forgotten how to truly enjoy games and truly be immersed in the games.
We no longer gain a sense of danger. There is no risk vs reward. There is no inbetween for our games. It's all about how you start and what the end-game is like. So you get to the end of the game - now what? Wait for the next expansion just to do it all over again? And then what? etc. etc.
The leaking faucet continues to leak and we all wonder why we get bored of our games.
We need to bring life back to our games and we can do that by introducing permadeath in more places.
If you look into Trials of Ascension - they do an incredible job making permadeath not just a great feature but a great balancing of the game and its players.
I agree. My first Dominus fight on hardcore server in PoE was a wake up call for me
My hands were shaking so badly that I could barely get a grip on the mouse, which was slippery from sweat lol
I eventually died (not in the Dominus fight!) and I tried to play on with no perma death on the normal server. Yawn. Run, zerg, kill, kill, kill, die, run, zerg, rinse and repete.
Perma death is terrifying, it makes games almost too frightening to play at all. I constantly find reasons to put off the difficult fights because I DON`T WANT TO F... DIE!!!!!
Permadeath directly contradicts the RPG concept. Progression is literally impossible. Permadeath would have to be so near-impossible that you'd literally have to try to make it happen in order for it to work in a MMO. The vast majority of gamers hate the idea of your character dying permanently. Even sandbox gamers don't like it. It's so far niche, that it's really not even worth talking about in a serious manner.
Originally posted by Phry Permadeath in a game = Permadeath of the game, simples
Not if they make a seperate permadeath server, and automatically transfer chars to a normal server upon death like in PoE. Then people can choose for themselves.
"Because we've all grown attached to our characters, we've forgotten how to truly enjoy games and truly be immersed in the games".
Surely there's a contradiction here.
- Are you saying that you cannot truly enjoy a game because you have some attachment with your character?
- Or if you have an attachment to your character you are not truly immersed in the game?
I would say the opposite.
Part of the enjoyment and immersion is to see your character grow, in skills, items, achievements. People often carry over the same character names game to game, reinforcing that link between player and their character.
So you are promoting the idea that killing this off would then be the way to true enjoyment and immersion? That sounds like it would have the completely opposite effect.
If I had a game where I knew the character was going to completely disappear at some point or other, my attachment to it would be zero, it would be viewed in comparison to a disposable tissue. Used it - get another, use that - another, and so on. That would be the absolute opposite of immersion, and with it, any sense of enjoyment in character progression would be lost.
I'm sorry but your post in this respect doesn't appear to make any sense at all.
If I had a game where I knew the character was going to completely disappear at some point or other, my attachment to it would be zero, it would be viewed in comparison to a disposable tissue.
RL called, and you should probably sit down before you hear this, but...
Originally posted by Thorkune I wouldn't even install a permadeath game. But, that's just me...
What's funny is permadeath isn't even a new concept. We've all played mario brothers when we were younger. Practically every console game we played had it. Why not put that in mmorpg's?
You are either from different planet, or do not understand the term permadeath. There was no permadeath in console games. Even mario had few lives to use up before game over, and the majority of games had either continue button, or showed passwords you could use to start from current level.
And, permadeath was never a concept used in PC games either, ever... because you could always load previously saved state. So it is normal for people to find it funny... it was never really used anywere, maybe few very unpopular titles, and then some dude comes into forums and talks like it was always and everywere...
Let's put the nonsense aside, and forget the the op false statement above. MMO is the worst possible place to put permadeath in, there is a huge difference between losing a game that took you 15 minutes, and losing everything you earned in few months. It is not "hardcore" or whatever, it is just masohism.
If I had a game where I knew the character was going to completely disappear at some point or other, my attachment to it would be zero, it would be viewed in comparison to a disposable tissue.
RL called, and you should probably sit down before you hear this, but...
I do sit down when I type at a keyboard, so please finish what you are trying to say.
Originally posted by Thorkune I wouldn't even install a permadeath game. But, that's just me...
What's funny is permadeath isn't even a new concept. We've all played mario brothers when we were younger. Practically every console game we played had it. Why not put that in mmorpg's?
Because, IMO, MMORPG's are supposed to be about playing an alternate "you" in a virtual world (Old school thoughts, I know). MMORPG's are all about immersion to me. I'm all for firmer death penalties, in Asheron's Call you lost items and experience, and in early AC returning to your corpse was a pain and in some cases nearly impossible, this was great.
However, the moment I lost my virtual "Me" that I spend x-hundred hours on... done... absolutely done. Disgusted and done.
I share the same sentiments too but think about this for a second. The only reason you got to X-hundreds of hours with that 1 character is because permadeath didn't exist so obviously your character is going to be a large investment and thus, permadeath is not viable.
And here you touch another problem. How long then am I supposed to play my character so I am ok when it's gone forever? If it's long then as others noticed, player's character is gone = player is done. If it's short (i.e. few hours, few days perhaps) the how many times you can start same thing from scratch? Even in full loot games you don't - your character may not have gear anymore but overall character progress is kept. With permadeath game even that would be gone. In other words after short period of time boredom and player's done with the game.
If I had a game where I knew the character was going to completely disappear at some point or other, my attachment to it would be zero, it would be viewed in comparison to a disposable tissue.
RL called, and you should probably sit down before you hear this, but...
RL for most people dousnt involve the possability of being killed by a random troll/asshat/gankers for shits and giggles.
and while people do die for stupid reason, i promise you most of them are not haveing fun, if you dont beleave me look into PTSD. or ask someone who ahs been in real combat, i can only speak for myself but it is not fun.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Progression is the reason why permadeath is so difficult.
Games are so focused on progression. The gap between 0 and cap is to large. If you make the gap shorter, and thus permadeath more reasonable, you'd lose a main element in MMOs.
Permadeath is a real U turn. It's actually the opposite that people find interesting in MMOs. At least that's what I always thought.
I think permadeath is more than possible if it is done right.
For example: 1 life to live is extreme and gives a very stinging feeling of permadeath but what about 100 deaths? With 100 deaths, permadeath is diluted and you can prepare for it too. It isn't like this surprise to you. It's expected.
right after months of playing and played 50% of the game u die, loose it all, and now u have to restart from scratch and have to play the 50%again.
There is a lot of room in between those two options.
There are lots of ways to invoke a feeling danger other than losing everything you worked for in one fell swoop. Seeing a Giant or Griffon approaching as you're fighting a wolf or lion will invoke a sense of danger. Trekking through a dark forest that reportedly has powerful undead in it at night can invoke a feeling of danger.
Perma-Death? Not so much for me. My characters would never leave the starting city
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by GimiZigi I think permadeath is more than possible if it is done right.For example: 1 life to live is extreme and gives a very stinging feeling of permadeath but what about 100 deaths? With 100 deaths, permadeath is diluted and you can prepare for it too. It isn't like this surprise to you. It's expected.
Then it is not really "Perma-Death", is it? It is more along the lines of "kinda sorta somewhat similar to perma-death."
What is the point of perma-death if you get 100 lives? How does that differ from any other death penalty in scope? Die 1-99 times and you're right back in the game. Die that 100th time, though... LOOK OUT!
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by GimiZigi I think permadeath is more than possible if it is done right.
For example: 1 life to live is extreme and gives a very stinging feeling of permadeath but what about 100 deaths? With 100 deaths, permadeath is diluted and you can prepare for it too. It isn't like this surprise to you. It's expected.
Then it is not really "Perma-Death", is it? It is more along the lines of "kinda sorta somewhat similar to perma-death."
What is the point of perma-death if you get 100 lives? How does that differ from any other death penalty in scope? Die 1-99 times and you're right back in the game. Die that 100th time, though... LOOK OUT!
Actually it is perma-death in the same vein as Super Mario Bros.
That said I am more for face meet frying pan death penalties rather than a complete wipe if character progression is tweaked such that characters can be unique via a freeform/point system rather than a standard I R WARRIOR ! because if it is standard then just shift power progression from exponential to a minimum slope linear one and have at it.
Originally posted by Thorkune I wouldn't even install a permadeath game. But, that's just me...
What's funny is permadeath isn't even a new concept. We've all played mario brothers when we were younger. Practically every console game we played had it. Why not put that in mmorpg's?
what does mario have to do with mmorpgs?
imo (usual version of) permadeath is a terrible concept as far as (mmo)rpg goes. it works well in games where your character is not developing, where the goal is e.g. to finish game, to get as far as you can, but it imo doesnt work at all for games where goal is story or/and character development.
edit: you can even say that "permadeath" that mario had has a lot of todays mmorpg - you die e.g. in dungeon or boss fight and have to start over, which is about as much as "permadeath" did to you in games like mario.
edit2: i am ofc talking about computer rpg, i am perfectly fine with permadeath in most of my pnp rpgs
Comments
I agree. My first Dominus fight on hardcore server in PoE was a wake up call for me
My hands were shaking so badly that I could barely get a grip on the mouse, which was slippery from sweat lol
I eventually died (not in the Dominus fight!) and I tried to play on with no perma death on the normal server. Yawn. Run, zerg, kill, kill, kill, die, run, zerg, rinse and repete.
Perma death is terrifying, it makes games almost too frightening to play at all. I constantly find reasons to put off the difficult fights because I DON`T WANT TO F... DIE!!!!!
But without perma death gaming becomes dull.
Not if they make a seperate permadeath server, and automatically transfer chars to a normal server upon death like in PoE. Then people can choose for themselves.
Obviously you never RPed with my gamemaster...
"Because we've all grown attached to our characters, we've forgotten how to truly enjoy games and truly be immersed in the games".
Surely there's a contradiction here.
- Are you saying that you cannot truly enjoy a game because you have some attachment with your character?
- Or if you have an attachment to your character you are not truly immersed in the game?
I would say the opposite.
Part of the enjoyment and immersion is to see your character grow, in skills, items, achievements. People often carry over the same character names game to game, reinforcing that link between player and their character.
So you are promoting the idea that killing this off would then be the way to true enjoyment and immersion? That sounds like it would have the completely opposite effect.
If I had a game where I knew the character was going to completely disappear at some point or other, my attachment to it would be zero, it would be viewed in comparison to a disposable tissue. Used it - get another, use that - another, and so on. That would be the absolute opposite of immersion, and with it, any sense of enjoyment in character progression would be lost.
I'm sorry but your post in this respect doesn't appear to make any sense at all.
RL called, and you should probably sit down before you hear this, but...
You are either from different planet, or do not understand the term permadeath. There was no permadeath in console games. Even mario had few lives to use up before game over, and the majority of games had either continue button, or showed passwords you could use to start from current level.
And, permadeath was never a concept used in PC games either, ever... because you could always load previously saved state. So it is normal for people to find it funny... it was never really used anywere, maybe few very unpopular titles, and then some dude comes into forums and talks like it was always and everywere...
Let's put the nonsense aside, and forget the the op false statement above. MMO is the worst possible place to put permadeath in, there is a huge difference between losing a game that took you 15 minutes, and losing everything you earned in few months. It is not "hardcore" or whatever, it is just masohism.
I do sit down when I type at a keyboard, so please finish what you are trying to say.
lol .. again? How many times are we flogging *this* dead horse. I guess permadeath does not apply to it.
But of course this forum is full of dead horses.
The point is to avoid dying.
Star Citizen's planning to have (a kind of) permadeath (actually the character will have a random and hiden number of lives).
From the number of followers, I guess permadeath can be a market. The game just needs to not be vaporware... but that's an other topic ^_^
And here you touch another problem. How long then am I supposed to play my character so I am ok when it's gone forever? If it's long then as others noticed, player's character is gone = player is done. If it's short (i.e. few hours, few days perhaps) the how many times you can start same thing from scratch? Even in full loot games you don't - your character may not have gear anymore but overall character progress is kept. With permadeath game even that would be gone. In other words after short period of time boredom and player's done with the game.
Considering how easy MMO's have become these days, I would still be playing my permadeath character... forever.
But seriously, I don't see how permadeath and MMORPG would be interesting. For other genres it makes much more sense.
RL for most people dousnt involve the possability of being killed by a random troll/asshat/gankers for shits and giggles.
and while people do die for stupid reason, i promise you most of them are not haveing fun, if you dont beleave me look into PTSD. or ask someone who ahs been in real combat, i can only speak for myself but it is not fun.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
if you don't die then the game is too easy.
an option for hc/permadeath would be nice, go play some day z
/deathbylagguuuu
Ryoshi1 as Rikimaru
Progression is the reason why permadeath is so difficult.
Games are so focused on progression. The gap between 0 and cap is to large. If you make the gap shorter, and thus permadeath more reasonable, you'd lose a main element in MMOs.
Permadeath is a real U turn. It's actually the opposite that people find interesting in MMOs. At least that's what I always thought.
right after months of playing and played 50% of the game u die, loose it all, and now u have to restart from scratch and have to play the 50%again.
yeah, not everyones cup of tea
The OP is bucking for the other end of the spectrum here.
Perma-Death............................................................NO Penalty
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
There is a lot of room in between those two options.
There are lots of ways to invoke a feeling danger other than losing everything you worked for in one fell swoop. Seeing a Giant or Griffon approaching as you're fighting a wolf or lion will invoke a sense of danger. Trekking through a dark forest that reportedly has powerful undead in it at night can invoke a feeling of danger.
Perma-Death? Not so much for me. My characters would never leave the starting city
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
What is the point of perma-death if you get 100 lives? How does that differ from any other death penalty in scope? Die 1-99 times and you're right back in the game. Die that 100th time, though... LOOK OUT!
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Actually it is perma-death in the same vein as Super Mario Bros.
That said I am more for face meet frying pan death penalties rather than a complete wipe if character progression is tweaked such that characters can be unique via a freeform/point system rather than a standard I R WARRIOR ! because if it is standard then just shift power progression from exponential to a minimum slope linear one and have at it.
what does mario have to do with mmorpgs?
imo (usual version of) permadeath is a terrible concept as far as (mmo)rpg goes. it works well in games where your character is not developing, where the goal is e.g. to finish game, to get as far as you can, but it imo doesnt work at all for games where goal is story or/and character development.
edit: you can even say that "permadeath" that mario had has a lot of todays mmorpg - you die e.g. in dungeon or boss fight and have to start over, which is about as much as "permadeath" did to you in games like mario.
edit2: i am ofc talking about computer rpg, i am perfectly fine with permadeath in most of my pnp rpgs
I use to love playing hardcore mode on D2. Made every battle so much more exciting.
but....most devs are aware that permadeath is a customer exit opportunity.
DayZ is one of the few online games that got permadeath down correctly.
-WL
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
But it is easy to put in an option. D2 has it. D3 has it. Option is the best .. you don't have to use it if you don't like it.