Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Most Balanced Preview I've Seen So Far (Dracoboar)

2»

Comments

  • AmjocoAmjoco Member UncommonPosts: 4,860
    I'm not much on reviews, but when I do see one that is balanced and non-biased I link it to my friends. This one gets linked!

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • pmcubedpmcubed Member Posts: 289
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    If the game didn't open up after level 10 I would say you have a valid point.

    But according to the reviewers who bother to play more than 5 hours and players on this board it does.

    Idk, I just think at the end of the day, the starting zone 'restrictions' are pretty trivial. 

    I look at it like this:  The first area is tiny and functions as a tutorial.  The next is the island.  If that area is too large what is to stop people from getting lost and losing direction.. giving up.  Sure, it's a big hand-holdy, but maybe it functions to introduce players to the 'world' that is to come.  So they aren't overwhelmed by the next zone; which is huge - the place these reviews say the game opens up.  It feels more incremental to me rather than overly restrictive.  

    Like I said, not everyone is going to be pleased.  But I think it requires a little perspective to appreciate ESO as an MMO.

  • kkarrabbasskkarrabbass Member Posts: 152
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by pmcubed

    I could be the minority, but comparing the starting area to WoW (the biggest MMO currently) to ESO, I find some issues with the starting level argument.

    In WoW, you spawn in the new area and begin kill / fetch quests and I would wager that most players don't bother to read any of the quest dialogue. In this sense, ESO starting zones are vast improvements.

    I think the issue is that people are expecting multiplayer Skyrim.  Good or bad, this isn't multiplayer Skyrim.  It's an MMO.  ZOS has made an attempt to find a good balance between the two, but they can never please everyone.

    The absence of MMO features like scrolling combat text, minimaps, meters, etc, give the game an TES feel.

    Quest markers, theme park-ish, soft targeting, etc make the game an MMO.

    You have to appreciate it for what it is trying to do, instead of being critical of what it is not.  I guess if people can't do that, play Skyrim or Wildstar when it comes out.

    If the game didn't open up after level 10 I would say you have a valid point.

    But according to the reviewers who bother to play more than 5 hours and players on this board it does.

     

    According to players, who do not approach this game as if it would be a WOW clone, there are plenty of interesting (not boring) things could be found and done before you even reach level 10. It is a predisposition to rush and to grind makes this early game play felt inconsistent.

  • HengistHengist Member RarePosts: 1,317


    Originally posted by azzamasin

    Originally posted by Baikal  

    Originally posted by superconducting The ironic thing is, if they had done this NDA lift a long time ago, they would have known exactly what systems need work.   Instead, they now have <2 months to address all the criticisms and negativity that inevitably surfaced.
      What does the NDA have to do with the criticism? They are getting feed back from the closed sessions, and the weekend betas, do you really think if there was no NDA they would not hear the same feedback?
    99% of the feedback they'll get will be smoke blowing, Kumbaya singing, this games is amazing, praising.  Those who had or have negative reactions won't even bother to post them but instead post them here or other non-ESO friendly sites.  One look at the beta forums proves this to be true.

     

    Keeping the NDA up is the worst thing they could of done precisely because of superconducting's post.



    But the NDA still has absolutely nothing to do with the feedback they are getting.

    I think you guys are confusing the issues. Zenimax is getting feedback, what you guys are implying is that they don't listen unless it's public, which I'm sorry, just isn't true.

    Yes, most betas start by default with people who have an interest in the game, which often times means they are not the most objective, and you definitely have people who are kissing butt, and not being objective. That said, I can't think of a beta I ever participated in, where there was not plenty of objective feedback (usually shouted down, by the rabid fans), and I'm pretty sure that Zenimax had the same kind of feedback here. They easily could have have done a press beta, or a guild beta, and not dropped an NDA and gotten the same feedback, as long as the audience was neutral, NDA had nothing to do with it.

    Finally, even if they do listen, it doesn't mean they can address in all cases. I don't have a clue what the higher levels look like, and honestly, I'm more than a little curious about those, especially since early levels are played and polished more, and if the starter levels here are the pinnacle of polish..... My point though, is that even if they wanted to try to change it, it's far to late for that kind of an overhaul, unless they are willing to move a release date, and add serious cost. I'm not bean counter, but I suspect they have those too.....

    Honestly, I don't see a single thing that dropping an NDA means they will listen or get more honest feedback. I get that a lot of people don't like or want them, but I think unless a company has one, they'd get pummeled far worse than ESO was this past week, and even earlier in the process. If you think it takes dropping an NDA to listen to feedback, then that's a whole 'nother issue.

  • Originally posted by pmcubed
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    If the game didn't open up after level 10 I would say you have a valid point.

    But according to the reviewers who bother to play more than 5 hours and players on this board it does.

    Idk, I just think at the end of the day, the starting zone 'restrictions' are pretty trivial. 

    I look at it like this:  The first area is tiny and functions as a tutorial.  The next is the island.  If that area is too large what is to stop people from getting lost and losing direction.. giving up.  Sure, it's a big hand-holdy, but maybe it functions to introduce players to the 'world' that is to come.  So they aren't overwhelmed by the next zone; which is huge - the place these reviews say the game opens up.  It feels more incremental to me rather than overly restrictive.  

    Like I said, not everyone is going to be pleased.  But I think it requires a little perspective to appreciate ESO as an MMO.

    I have no doubt in my mind I will power through it just fine.  But its just needless stupidity that misrepresents the majority of the game.  I just don't see how an MMO has to forcibly lock you into a starter island.  

    This is in fact incredibly rare for MMORPGs.  I literally ran through every zone at level 5 and capped all the RvR point in Warhammer Online in the first few hours of early access.    I have done similar things in something like 4 other games.

     

    Its really no skin off my nose.  It merely offends me as a software developer and RPG enthusist.   In point of fact what bugs me the most is that it put out and re-enforces an incorrect idea.  A tutorial should illustrate how your game actually works.  Instead this actually does a tutorial on mechanics and misleads you about how the content plays out.  For me as a software developer that is a cardinal sin.  For me as a gamer, fuck it, that's zenimax's problem its not my foot they are shooting, it's their own.

  • HengistHengist Member RarePosts: 1,317


    Originally posted by gestalt11
     A tutorial should illustrate how your game actually works.  Instead this actually does a tutorial on mechanics and misleads you about how the content plays out.  For me as a software developer that is a cardinal sin.  For me as a gamer, fuck it, that's zenimax's problem its not my foot they are shooting, it's their own.

    I think you hit the nail right on the head. Well said.

  • Originally posted by kkarrabbass
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by pmcubed

    I could be the minority, but comparing the starting area to WoW (the biggest MMO currently) to ESO, I find some issues with the starting level argument.

    In WoW, you spawn in the new area and begin kill / fetch quests and I would wager that most players don't bother to read any of the quest dialogue. In this sense, ESO starting zones are vast improvements.

    I think the issue is that people are expecting multiplayer Skyrim.  Good or bad, this isn't multiplayer Skyrim.  It's an MMO.  ZOS has made an attempt to find a good balance between the two, but they can never please everyone.

    The absence of MMO features like scrolling combat text, minimaps, meters, etc, give the game an TES feel.

    Quest markers, theme park-ish, soft targeting, etc make the game an MMO.

    You have to appreciate it for what it is trying to do, instead of being critical of what it is not.  I guess if people can't do that, play Skyrim or Wildstar when it comes out.

    If the game didn't open up after level 10 I would say you have a valid point.

    But according to the reviewers who bother to play more than 5 hours and players on this board it does.

     

    According to players, who do not approach this game as if it would be a WOW clone, there are plenty of interesting (not boring) things could be found and done before you even reach level 10. It is a predisposition to rush and to grind makes this early game play felt inconsistent.

    I don't find this persuasive and I will give you a concrete example why.

    Take this Dracoboar review that baikal linked.

    In it he goes through some things that he likes.  Two of them are the combat and,  here is the kicker, the story.  Yet he makes the point that despite very much liking these things there is still enough problems with the overall experience to give him the impression the 1-10 experience is rather poor.

    That is not a WoW mentality thing.  This is a guy who has two characteristics he likes and is predisposed to like this setup and still can't do it even though he is trying.

    He literally asks in a rhetoric manner " How many of the little details must be off in order for some genuinely excited about and liking the story to get turned off?"

     

    There is a problem there and its clearly beyond the consume content like a plague of locusts issue of loot/power whores.

     

    Secondly loot/power whores tend to just power through this kind of crap anyway and view all leveling content as tripe to get through as fast possible.

     

    I think you are actually making a big mistake its in fact an entirely different camp of people.  There seem to be a large number of people who really want to like the game and see a number of elements they do in fact like and are quite frustrated that they can't seem to get there.

  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309

    I agree with one of the posters above that said that the starting 10 levels are fine as they are.

     

    I don't really agree with all the reviewers that hate the early, largely on rails part of the game.  At least this part of the game is focused and accomplishes what it sets out to do.   This part is fully themepark, gives you a nice streamlined story, involves you in the world and teaches you how to play before leaving you on your own around lvl 10.   It may not be original and it may be themepark, but at least it does what it does well. 

     

    What i disagree with most reviewers on is that the game gets better.  To me, it just totally lost any dramatic focus.  Once you finish the jailbreak sequence in Skyrim and the game "opens up", you're faced with way too many things to do, all of them interesting and exciting.  With ESO, once the world opens up, you're faced with many things to do, most of them no longer interesting or exciting.  The stories get weaker, the character interaction less interesting, the world opens, but there is very little in it.   All those things that the reviewers mention "finding" out in the open seem tiny and insignifiant, yield no sense of either adventure, exploration or accomplishment.

     

    I will still probably buy the game.  It's the only thing coming out that doesn't look like Disney.  But i warn anyone that sees these reviews and hears buzzwords like  "the world opens up" , "exploration" and "find quests off the beaten path" - that these things are not what you would imagine from playing something like Skyrim.  

     

    Here is a great example, one of the reviews mentions that "just like in Skyrim" you run into this brand new city and "just like in an ES game" the guards pass you by and say "don't get into any trouble!"   The problem?  There is no possible trouble to get into - i mean literally, there is nothing you can do in the city to get into trouble, no such mechanics exist in ESO.  (At leasdt from what's been shown)

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • Originally posted by arieste

    I agree with one of the posters above that said that the starting 10 levels are fine as they are.

     

    I don't really agree with all the reviewers that hate the early, largely on rails part of the game.  At least this part of the game is focused and accomplishes what it sets out to do.   This part is fully themepark, gives you a nice streamlined story, involves you in the world and teaches you how to play before leaving you on your own around lvl 10.   It may not be original and it may be themepark, but at least it does what it does well. 

     

    What i disagree with most reviewers on is that the game gets better.  To me, it just totally lost any dramatic focus.  Once you finish the jailbreak sequence in Skyrim and the game "opens up", you're faced with way too many things to do, all of them interesting and exciting.  With ESO, once the world opens up, you're faced with many things to do, most of them no longer interesting or exciting.  The stories get weaker, the character interaction less interesting, the world opens, but there is very little in it.   All those things that the reviewers mention "finding" out in the open seem tiny and insignifiant, yield no sense of either adventure, exploration or accomplishment.

     

    I will still probably buy the game.  It's the only thing coming out that doesn't look like Disney.  But i warn anyone that sees these reviews and hears buzzwords like  "the world opens up" , "exploration" and "find quests off the beaten path" - that these things are not what you would imagine from playing something like Skyrim.  

     

    Here is a great example, one of the reviews mentions that "just like in Skyrim" you run into this brand new city and "just like in an ES game" the guards pass you by and say "don't get into any trouble!"   The problem?  There is no possible trouble to get into - i mean literally, there is nothing you can do in the city to get into trouble, no such mechanics exist in ESO.  (At leasdt from what's been shown)

    See now this is the part where I think the "its an MMO not TES" thing comes into play.  Yeah you can't just steal stuff like in a real TES game.  The content opens up and narrative flow opens up after level 10 but the gameplay itself does not.

    But this was never really going to happen.  They would have to literally redesign the game to be EvE Online transported into a TES setting to get this.  Not that that would not be a rather interesting game, but that is what they have had to do.  And it was clear that was never going to happen.

     

    A couple reviewers actually made the same point though about dramatic focus becomely dramatically weaker.  I dunno its kind of weird they seemed conflicted because they had spent all that time getting off the rails that the complete flip flop made them happy and sad at the same time unable to complain in a consistent manner.

  • MW2KMW2K Member UncommonPosts: 1,036
    Thanks for this. Always enjoy reading/watching new previews.
  • HengistHengist Member RarePosts: 1,317


    Originally posted by gestalt11
    See now this is the part where I think the "its an MMO not TES" thing comes into play.  Yeah you can't just steal stuff like in a real TES game.  The content opens up and narrative flow opens up after level 10 but the gameplay itself does not.But this was never really going to happen.  They would have to literally redesign the game to be EvE Online transported into a TES setting to get this.  Not that that would not be a rather interesting game, but that is what they have had to do.  And it was clear that was never going to happen.


    I'd agree with that as well, consumers especially with the investment of TES fans want more TES features as part of the game, and MMO fans want more MMO features. The post you are quoting illustrates this well, that's a TES want, and in other threads you see MMO wants like expanded UI, damage meters, and so on. There is just no way to satisfy everyone, and have every feature. It always was going to require a compromise, for my part I'm not totally happy, but I can certainly live with the choices that they made.

    Ultimately, if people "but it anyhow", then Zenimax made the right call, if people don't buy, then there is no chance they'll ever really like it.

  • HrothaHrotha Member UncommonPosts: 821
    Originally posted by superconducting

    The ironic thing is, if they had done this NDA lift a long time ago, they would have known exactly what systems need work.

    Instead, they now have <2 months to address all the criticisms and negativity that inevitably surfaced.

    Yes it's not intelligent to launch it so soon.

    image

  • kkarrabbasskkarrabbass Member Posts: 152
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by kkarrabbass
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by pmcubed

    I could be the minority, but comparing the starting area to WoW (the biggest MMO currently) to ESO, I find some issues with the starting level argument.

    In WoW, you spawn in the new area and begin kill / fetch quests and I would wager that most players don't bother to read any of the quest dialogue. In this sense, ESO starting zones are vast improvements.

    I think the issue is that people are expecting multiplayer Skyrim.  Good or bad, this isn't multiplayer Skyrim.  It's an MMO.  ZOS has made an attempt to find a good balance between the two, but they can never please everyone.

    The absence of MMO features like scrolling combat text, minimaps, meters, etc, give the game an TES feel.

    Quest markers, theme park-ish, soft targeting, etc make the game an MMO.

    You have to appreciate it for what it is trying to do, instead of being critical of what it is not.  I guess if people can't do that, play Skyrim or Wildstar when it comes out.

    If the game didn't open up after level 10 I would say you have a valid point.

    But according to the reviewers who bother to play more than 5 hours and players on this board it does.

     

    According to players, who do not approach this game as if it would be a WOW clone, there are plenty of interesting (not boring) things could be found and done before you even reach level 10. It is a predisposition to rush and to grind makes this early game play felt inconsistent.

    I don't find this persuasive and I will give you a concrete example why.

    Take this Dracoboar review that baikal linked.

    In it he goes through some things that he likes.  Two of them are the combat and,  here is the kicker, the story.  Yet he makes the point that despite very much liking these things there is still enough problems with the overall experience to give him the impression the 1-10 experience is rather poor.

    That is not a WoW mentality thing.  This is a guy who has two characteristics he likes and is predisposed to like this setup and still can't do it even though he is trying.

    He literally asks in a rhetoric manner " How many of the little details must be off in order for some genuinely excited about and liking the story to get turned off?"

     

    There is a problem there and its clearly beyond the consume content like a plague of locusts issue of loot/power whores.

     

    Secondly loot/power whores tend to just power through this kind of crap anyway and view all leveling content as tripe to get through as fast possible.

     

    I think you are actually making a big mistake its in fact an entirely different camp of people.  There seem to be a large number of people who really want to like the game and see a number of elements they do in fact like and are quite frustrated that they can't seem to get there.

    You didn’t understand my point at all. So, you did a lot of irrelevant comments.

    It is not about WOW mentality. It is about having a game pattern in your mind. It is about knowing what you want. It is about having some example of game you allegedly would like to play. And then comparing any new game with this hypothetic imaginary game (which may be even impossible with all that features combined to your liking) and judging its features accordingly.

    It is (I would call it) closed minded approach.  And because longest played game Is WOW, general predisposition is, all other theme park RPGs more or less are WOW clones (we are not discussing it here), and could be assessed by same approach (same priorities and same standards).

    In opposite to that kind of approach, this game to be understood and liked require open mind.

    This game mostly is not about things that other games on market are. It is really (at least PVE) about taking your time and getting know world around you first. I can understand that for some people it is something incomprehensible.  And some people look for different game play. And to those who missed it, or still wanted to do things as it would be a WOW (or other recent game for this matter) clone, it would be a mediocre game that doesn’t deliver. At least at the beginning. It doesn’t and not supposed to deliver what WOW delivers more or less satisfactory. It is a different game. Instead of moving to another game entirely, they try to critique it like it was meant for them, but missed.

    Just because they wanted this game to work according their rules. But this game has its own rules of what and how things to be enjoyed in it. I am not saying this game is unique. I am saying people need to learn how appreciate game for what it is, not for what they want it to be. Can’t – then move on!

     

  • Originally posted by kkarrabbass
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by kkarrabbass
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Originally posted by pmcubed

    I could be the minority, but comparing the starting area to WoW (the biggest MMO currently) to ESO, I find some issues with the starting level argument.

    In WoW, you spawn in the new area and begin kill / fetch quests and I would wager that most players don't bother to read any of the quest dialogue. In this sense, ESO starting zones are vast improvements.

    I think the issue is that people are expecting multiplayer Skyrim.  Good or bad, this isn't multiplayer Skyrim.  It's an MMO.  ZOS has made an attempt to find a good balance between the two, but they can never please everyone.

    The absence of MMO features like scrolling combat text, minimaps, meters, etc, give the game an TES feel.

    Quest markers, theme park-ish, soft targeting, etc make the game an MMO.

    You have to appreciate it for what it is trying to do, instead of being critical of what it is not.  I guess if people can't do that, play Skyrim or Wildstar when it comes out.

    If the game didn't open up after level 10 I would say you have a valid point.

    But according to the reviewers who bother to play more than 5 hours and players on this board it does.

     

    According to players, who do not approach this game as if it would be a WOW clone, there are plenty of interesting (not boring) things could be found and done before you even reach level 10. It is a predisposition to rush and to grind makes this early game play felt inconsistent.

    I don't find this persuasive and I will give you a concrete example why.

    Take this Dracoboar review that baikal linked.

    In it he goes through some things that he likes.  Two of them are the combat and,  here is the kicker, the story.  Yet he makes the point that despite very much liking these things there is still enough problems with the overall experience to give him the impression the 1-10 experience is rather poor.

    That is not a WoW mentality thing.  This is a guy who has two characteristics he likes and is predisposed to like this setup and still can't do it even though he is trying.

    He literally asks in a rhetoric manner " How many of the little details must be off in order for some genuinely excited about and liking the story to get turned off?"

     

    There is a problem there and its clearly beyond the consume content like a plague of locusts issue of loot/power whores.

     

    Secondly loot/power whores tend to just power through this kind of crap anyway and view all leveling content as tripe to get through as fast possible.

     

    I think you are actually making a big mistake its in fact an entirely different camp of people.  There seem to be a large number of people who really want to like the game and see a number of elements they do in fact like and are quite frustrated that they can't seem to get there.

    You didn’t understand my point at all. So, you did a lot of irrelevant comments.

    It is not about WOW mentality. It is about having a game pattern in your mind. It is about knowing what you want. It is about having some example of game you allegedly would like to play. And then comparing any new game with this hypothetic imaginary game (which may be even impossible with all that features combined to your liking) and judging its features accordingly.

    It is (I would call it) closed minded approach.  And because longest played game Is WOW, general predisposition is, all other theme park RPGs more or less are WOW clones (we are not discussing it here), and could be assessed by same approach (same priorities and same standards).

    In opposite to that kind of approach, this game to be understood and liked require open mind.

    This game mostly is not about things that other games on market are. It is really (at least PVE) about taking your time and getting know world around you first. I can understand that for some people it is something incomprehensible.  And some people look for different game play. And to those who missed it, or still wanted to do things as it would be a WOW (or other recent game for this matter) clone, it would be a mediocre game that doesn’t deliver. At least at the beginning. It doesn’t and not supposed to deliver what WOW delivers more or less satisfactory. It is a different game. Instead of moving to another game entirely, they try to critique it like it was meant for them, but missed.

    Just because they wanted this game to work according their rules. But this game has its own rules of what and how things to be enjoyed in it. I am not saying this game is unique. I am saying people need to learn how appreciate game for what it is, not for what they want it to be. Can’t – then move on!

     

    Good luck trying to ever sell something or persuade anyone with that mentality.  Working against people's expectations is as old as the human species.  There are certain ways to deal with and be successful.  This is not one of them.

Sign In or Register to comment.