Story telling and group play don't go well together. Not even in SWTOR where you can at least make a different decision in some dialogues you usually have some time pressure. When I play stories solo I like to actually read them through / listen to the voiceover to the end and a group will always be hindering me or I will be hindering the group.
Also grinding in a group can be fun for a while, but even there I have my own rythm, take a break now and then and overall it is better done solo.
What does that tell us?
Storytelling in MMOs and grinding for grindings sake are shit mechanics for MMOs that's what it's saying.
Personally I don't like PVE instances, but many people do and alongsinde skirmish PvP that is the only actually rewarding type of of group play in contemporary MMOs. Almost all other content is just better solo.
Would it help to force grouping by making mobs in the world harder? I don't think so.
So what? Just make group play both necessary and rewarding by thinking up new ways to employ groups. Random dungeons, puzzles which can only be solved with 3+ people, tweaks to the game mechanics which reward higher risks better, stop nannying by removing quest markers, quest hints on map etc. (Even if people end up looking stuff up on something like Thottbot there is still more social engagement.). Remove stupid mechanics and walking sticks like invisibility, stunlocks, group finders, macros and addons. They only served to make even the last remnants of social behaviour in PvE into some dull technologically assisted button-mashing without changing a word with your group mates.
But yeah, that won't happen for various reasons, so we either have to put up with the state of games as it is or play one of the very few which still have an incentive for grouping up.
I think that when leveling took a long time and the primary way to gain xp was grinding mobs, the game was more social because players would form groups and camp mobs.
New MMO's have much faster leveling and the primary means of gaining xp is completing quests. Not everyone is always on the same quests, players need to afk for RL issues causing the group to have to wait for them, etc. making grouping not the preferred way to level.
So really, it's not an anti-social thing, it's a questing vs mob grinding thing.
Originally posted by fantasyfreak112 People play solo because it's the path of least resistance in every MMO after EQ1.
There's a common misconception that people never soloed in EQ1, and it's garbage. I'd estimate I soloed 80% to 90% of the time in EQ1 and the remainder of the time I was part of a duo with either a RL friend or (briefly) with one of a number of guild-mates. I solo almost exclusively these days for a variety of reasons, but other players are useful to me because of the Auction Houses and the items they craft and the resources they gather. Otherwise, players are just scenery.
its just funny that so many people join MMO games to solo-grind and be anti-social. I guess they like grinding and using the in-game economies since for the most part they are economies without the 0.01% running everything!!!
If I was %100 antisocial, I'd play nothing but single player games. Probably %95 of the time I prefer to solo in MMOs and not interact in any way with others. But that %5 of the time, I might say something in chat, join a dungeon, or blob up with a group of other players in open world and actually talk to them instead of killing things silently. And that %5 of the time is the reason I enjoy MMOs over solo games. However, if a game tries to force me to be social more often for whatever reason, I quickly move on to something else.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Platonic, spending the majority of you time in a mmorg doing solo activities is not 'anti-social' being rude and judgemental is however anti social. Most people who solo play are in guild and chat away, others are in guilds and are quiet but enjoy the banter.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
MMOs were never meant to be played solo. This is one of the reasons why most mmos fail so hard. They try to turn mmos into single player games and that is not what mmos are about.
I think a very few, is one or the other 100% of the time. I have yet to meet somebody who only groups and never solo's or vice versa. They either play with a balance maybe leaning more towards one or the other playstyles.
Because of that there should be enough room for both playstyles in any good MMO
As to being anti social. MMO's are an escape from real life. If you want to escape real life for a moment, chances are that involves people as well.
I always solo and never group. Now you've met someone. It's not that I wouldn't group if I found the right people to group with but I have not done so, everyone is in a race to end-game and I am not, thus I'd rather solo and enjoy my leisurely trip than have to chase after a bunch of idiots trying to max their characters as fast as they can.
And no, MMOs are not an escape from real life, anyone who uses them, or any video game, to escape from reality is an idiot. MMOs are a game. Nothing more, nothing less. They are no different than playing TETRIS or Angry Birds. It's something to do with your free time.
I'm not really sure why it matters so much that others play solo. They have no real effect on me or my game while they do it. I think what's important is that the game provides things for groups to do and that it somehow rewards group play while letting those people play how they want.
Forcing people to be social or group when they just want to solo has always seemed silly to me. I don't want to play with people who only group to get what they want done then drop group and leave.
MMOs are imo long past the point of being group only games though. And people don't just play them to be social with others all the time.
Because a lot of the rabid groupers want to "win" and prove that their playstyle is superior, thus they want to force everyone else, either through game mechanics or reward, to play their way so they feel good about themselves. Plus, the more people that have to group, the easier it will be for them to find people to group with.
Originally posted by ThomasN7 MMOs were never meant to be played solo. This is one of the reasons why most mmos fail so hard. They try to turn mmos into single player games and that is not what mmos are about.
How can you not see how wrong you are? You say they were never meant to be played solo, yet people were playing EQ solo all the time. I love people who think they get to define what MMOs are about. You're out of your league.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Platonic, spending the majority of you time in a mmorg doing solo activities is not 'anti-social' being rude and judgemental is however anti social. Most people who solo play are in guild and chat away, others are in guilds and are quiet but enjoy the banter.
Well to be clear. Doing "solo activities" is the definition of anti-social. If one spent their time doing "social activities" it wouldn't be called, "solo activities". I am neither being rude nor judgmental, i'm starting a conversation that was brought about from a wildstar dev on the social dynamics of players in MMO's.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Platonic, spending the majority of you time in a mmorg doing solo activities is not 'anti-social' being rude and judgemental is however anti social. Most people who solo play are in guild and chat away, others are in guilds and are quiet but enjoy the banter.
Well to be clear. Doing "solo activities" is the definition of anti-social. If one spent their time doing "social activities" it wouldn't be called, "solo activities". I am neither being rude nor judgmental, i'm starting a conversation that was brought about from a wildstar dev on the social dynamics of players in MMO's.
No, it's the definition of being non-social, at least for that particular activity. You can be social while you are doing an activity that is non-social, people in this very thread have said that they can play the game by themselves while talking to friends and family.
Anti-social is being against socialization. There's nothing in solo gaming that means you're actively against socializing, just that you're not engaged in it right this second.
..as said by Wildstar dev: "And solo players are tragically underserved in most MMOs – something like 65% of players tend to play largely solo (Massively Single-player, as it were)." http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/ne...f_the_game.php
How do you feel about more people tend to play solo in MMO? Tbh, I dont know where he get that info from, but surely not out of the blue sky.
65% seems steep, unless if he's talking about lifetime activities of a player on multiple toons (i.e., leveling via questing and tradeskilling).
Prime reason I solo is the antisocial nature of grouping. Games like WoW have a really piss poor community of nasty trolls and bottom feeders. Was watching my sis begin LFR the other day, and the tank immediately runs ahead and pulls just as 25 people arrived. Don't worry about food or even drinking a flask, you're in combat before the 15 seconds pass. Meanwhile, juniors in various flavors spent more time being ballers in chat than even attacking their targets (if you're text chatting you're sure not fighting beyond auto-attacking).
A total waste of time with little to show for it. And that's repeated in every group activity in all factions.
If we could just totally do away with the "community" aspect in a MMO, playing MMOs would be perfect as now we're playing the game for the game. I certainly didn't buy these MMOs for it's "community", it's the content I enjoy...not being a Den mom to terrible twos.
How can people really say they are for being social in mmos when even here everything is so black and white to them and demonstrate such a poor ability to understand different types of people.
How great can you really be at being social when you can't understand a simple concept like player A doesn't want to be social ALL the time but they still like to group when they're in the mood.
There's really no way to win this type of argument. If you can't understand that people are different, you're demonstrating poor social skills. If you do understand it....you don't make the argument in the first place.
I think there are a number of reasons for the shift in MMO's, mainly along generational lines. When I was young and playing games, pre computer era, board games, sports, family television time, the mentality then was more focused around a group. As computers entered the scene (console and hand held also) things start to shift.
Another thing that killed groups were message boards and forums. Certain player classes were played down as useless, several threads were pages long about pick up groups and their dysfunction (Leroy Jenkins anyone). It got to where pick up groups never happened or dissolved at the first sign of trouble, because of what everyone has read.
Time is another factor, it seems as though there are more things to grab our attention now as compared to then. People do not want to wait for a group, they want to get the most out of their play time and waiting for an hour for a group is not it for them.
I do not think MMO's are any more anti-social, I think it has to do with more with computer games changing to fit what society wants for a game, easy to get into, play an hour or two and get back out, with no grouping necessary. Also people want to play and not be hassled by waiting. To me, it is the combination of the shift of games to single player (besides MMO's), MMO's shift to get a larger player base, making the game more accessible, the vilification of pick up groups and most importantly time.
..as said by Wildstar dev: "And solo players are tragically underserved in most MMOs – something like 65% of players tend to play largely solo (Massively Single-player, as it were)." http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/ne...f_the_game.php
How do you feel about more people tend to play solo in MMO? Tbh, I dont know where he get that info from, but surely not out of the blue sky.
Catering to players that like to solo is what made WoW great back in the day (well, one of the many things they did right), it was often praised for its ability to go from level 1 to max without ever grouping up if that's what you wanted.
Now DDO on the other hand pretty much fell on its face when it was still a subscription only model and when it was forcing everyone to group all the time.
That's where they got the idea. And it's a very valid one.
Tons of people like to log onto their favorite MMO, continue their quests, or do some crafting and then when the mood strikes group up to something with others.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Well to be clear. Doing "solo activities" is the definition of anti-social. If one spent their time doing "social activities" it wouldn't be called, "solo activities". I am neither being rude nor judgmental, i'm starting a conversation that was brought about from a wildstar dev on the social dynamics of players in MMO's.
Solo activities are perfectly fine in MMOs (it has content that, for established MMOs, is updated beyond the 2 year only patch cycle for offline games), what isn't is the anti-social "toxic" mobs that are represented in MMOs.
A MMO is very much like your neighborhood. Many people living/working/playing in a huge world. In RL you'll get to know your neighbors; talk with them on their porches; essentially be good neighbors in good times and bad. Online, with the blanket anonymity, people can be rioters and anarchists and Christ killers essentially...without stop.
See, I was raised in a much different era socially, men and boys in mixed company are polite. I knew cussing and all existed but in public it was few and far between (as who wanted to be known as trailer trash?). Total strangers, even the drug sellers on a street corner, will address people as "sir" or "ma'am". It's just how we're raised and it's socially encouraged, and in more prim and proper settings, enforced (troll a wedding or a funeral Bubba and his cousins will use you for target practice). So coming online and it resembles the year's trailer trash jamboree, yeah, you shut off them as you'll shut them out in RL.
They're bad company and bring trouble.
MMOs don't, for the most part, have etiquette. Devs don't, usually, enforce it. So we get every furry known in them and expected to work with folks that are socially demons (for the lack of a better term). For me, I don't pay for that. I'd pay for meeting folks on my virtual porch and chit chatting with them over a pitcher of virutal lemonade as friends and/or neighbors, as that's the world I live in RL.
Originally posted by plat0nic And this is why you are a HOLY PALADIN !
In this world today, yeah, it even fits. Just like the good ol' boys aren't known to turn the other cheek, but expected to show up for church every Sunday morning!
Originally posted by ThomasN7 MMOs were never meant to be played solo. This is one of the reasons why most mmos fail so hard. They try to turn mmos into single player games and that is not what mmos are about.
How can you not see how wrong you are? You say they were never meant to be played solo, yet people were playing EQ solo all the time. I love people who think they get to define what MMOs are about. You're out of your league.
And i think it is just a fallacy to try to define "what MMO is about".
MMOs are just entertainment products. If i want to use them as single player games, i will. What "mmo is about" is pretty much up to the individual player, and you have no way to change their minds.
Originally posted by ThomasN7 MMOs were never meant to be played solo. This is one of the reasons why most mmos fail so hard. They try to turn mmos into single player games and that is not what mmos are about.
How can you not see how wrong you are? You say they were never meant to be played solo, yet people were playing EQ solo all the time. I love people who think they get to define what MMOs are about. You're out of your league.
And i think it is just a fallacy to try to define "what MMO is about".
MMOs are just entertainment products. If i want to use them as single player games, i will. What "mmo is about" is pretty much up to the individual player, and you have no way to change their minds.
Comments
Story telling and group play don't go well together. Not even in SWTOR where you can at least make a different decision in some dialogues you usually have some time pressure. When I play stories solo I like to actually read them through / listen to the voiceover to the end and a group will always be hindering me or I will be hindering the group.
Also grinding in a group can be fun for a while, but even there I have my own rythm, take a break now and then and overall it is better done solo.
What does that tell us?
Storytelling in MMOs and grinding for grindings sake are shit mechanics for MMOs that's what it's saying.
Personally I don't like PVE instances, but many people do and alongsinde skirmish PvP that is the only actually rewarding type of of group play in contemporary MMOs. Almost all other content is just better solo.
Would it help to force grouping by making mobs in the world harder? I don't think so.
So what? Just make group play both necessary and rewarding by thinking up new ways to employ groups. Random dungeons, puzzles which can only be solved with 3+ people, tweaks to the game mechanics which reward higher risks better, stop nannying by removing quest markers, quest hints on map etc. (Even if people end up looking stuff up on something like Thottbot there is still more social engagement.). Remove stupid mechanics and walking sticks like invisibility, stunlocks, group finders, macros and addons. They only served to make even the last remnants of social behaviour in PvE into some dull technologically assisted button-mashing without changing a word with your group mates.
But yeah, that won't happen for various reasons, so we either have to put up with the state of games as it is or play one of the very few which still have an incentive for grouping up.
I think that when leveling took a long time and the primary way to gain xp was grinding mobs, the game was more social because players would form groups and camp mobs.
New MMO's have much faster leveling and the primary means of gaining xp is completing quests. Not everyone is always on the same quests, players need to afk for RL issues causing the group to have to wait for them, etc. making grouping not the preferred way to level.
So really, it's not an anti-social thing, it's a questing vs mob grinding thing.
There's a common misconception that people never soloed in EQ1, and it's garbage. I'd estimate I soloed 80% to 90% of the time in EQ1 and the remainder of the time I was part of a duo with either a RL friend or (briefly) with one of a number of guild-mates. I solo almost exclusively these days for a variety of reasons, but other players are useful to me because of the Auction Houses and the items they craft and the resources they gather. Otherwise, players are just scenery.
Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I always solo and never group. Now you've met someone. It's not that I wouldn't group if I found the right people to group with but I have not done so, everyone is in a race to end-game and I am not, thus I'd rather solo and enjoy my leisurely trip than have to chase after a bunch of idiots trying to max their characters as fast as they can.
And no, MMOs are not an escape from real life, anyone who uses them, or any video game, to escape from reality is an idiot. MMOs are a game. Nothing more, nothing less. They are no different than playing TETRIS or Angry Birds. It's something to do with your free time.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Because a lot of the rabid groupers want to "win" and prove that their playstyle is superior, thus they want to force everyone else, either through game mechanics or reward, to play their way so they feel good about themselves. Plus, the more people that have to group, the easier it will be for them to find people to group with.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
How can you not see how wrong you are? You say they were never meant to be played solo, yet people were playing EQ solo all the time. I love people who think they get to define what MMOs are about. You're out of your league.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Well to be clear. Doing "solo activities" is the definition of anti-social. If one spent their time doing "social activities" it wouldn't be called, "solo activities". I am neither being rude nor judgmental, i'm starting a conversation that was brought about from a wildstar dev on the social dynamics of players in MMO's.
Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)
No, it's the definition of being non-social, at least for that particular activity. You can be social while you are doing an activity that is non-social, people in this very thread have said that they can play the game by themselves while talking to friends and family.
Anti-social is being against socialization. There's nothing in solo gaming that means you're actively against socializing, just that you're not engaged in it right this second.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
65% seems steep, unless if he's talking about lifetime activities of a player on multiple toons (i.e., leveling via questing and tradeskilling).
Prime reason I solo is the antisocial nature of grouping. Games like WoW have a really piss poor community of nasty trolls and bottom feeders. Was watching my sis begin LFR the other day, and the tank immediately runs ahead and pulls just as 25 people arrived. Don't worry about food or even drinking a flask, you're in combat before the 15 seconds pass. Meanwhile, juniors in various flavors spent more time being ballers in chat than even attacking their targets (if you're text chatting you're sure not fighting beyond auto-attacking).
A total waste of time with little to show for it. And that's repeated in every group activity in all factions.
If we could just totally do away with the "community" aspect in a MMO, playing MMOs would be perfect as now we're playing the game for the game. I certainly didn't buy these MMOs for it's "community", it's the content I enjoy...not being a Den mom to terrible twos.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)
How can people really say they are for being social in mmos when even here everything is so black and white to them and demonstrate such a poor ability to understand different types of people.
How great can you really be at being social when you can't understand a simple concept like player A doesn't want to be social ALL the time but they still like to group when they're in the mood.
There's really no way to win this type of argument. If you can't understand that people are different, you're demonstrating poor social skills. If you do understand it....you don't make the argument in the first place.
No, the reality police. Try making better arguments.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I think there are a number of reasons for the shift in MMO's, mainly along generational lines. When I was young and playing games, pre computer era, board games, sports, family television time, the mentality then was more focused around a group. As computers entered the scene (console and hand held also) things start to shift.
Another thing that killed groups were message boards and forums. Certain player classes were played down as useless, several threads were pages long about pick up groups and their dysfunction (Leroy Jenkins anyone). It got to where pick up groups never happened or dissolved at the first sign of trouble, because of what everyone has read.
Time is another factor, it seems as though there are more things to grab our attention now as compared to then. People do not want to wait for a group, they want to get the most out of their play time and waiting for an hour for a group is not it for them.
I do not think MMO's are any more anti-social, I think it has to do with more with computer games changing to fit what society wants for a game, easy to get into, play an hour or two and get back out, with no grouping necessary. Also people want to play and not be hassled by waiting. To me, it is the combination of the shift of games to single player (besides MMO's), MMO's shift to get a larger player base, making the game more accessible, the vilification of pick up groups and most importantly time.
Catering to players that like to solo is what made WoW great back in the day (well, one of the many things they did right), it was often praised for its ability to go from level 1 to max without ever grouping up if that's what you wanted.
Now DDO on the other hand pretty much fell on its face when it was still a subscription only model and when it was forcing everyone to group all the time.
That's where they got the idea. And it's a very valid one.
Tons of people like to log onto their favorite MMO, continue their quests, or do some crafting and then when the mood strikes group up to something with others.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Solo activities are perfectly fine in MMOs (it has content that, for established MMOs, is updated beyond the 2 year only patch cycle for offline games), what isn't is the anti-social "toxic" mobs that are represented in MMOs.
A MMO is very much like your neighborhood. Many people living/working/playing in a huge world. In RL you'll get to know your neighbors; talk with them on their porches; essentially be good neighbors in good times and bad. Online, with the blanket anonymity, people can be rioters and anarchists and Christ killers essentially...without stop.
See, I was raised in a much different era socially, men and boys in mixed company are polite. I knew cussing and all existed but in public it was few and far between (as who wanted to be known as trailer trash?). Total strangers, even the drug sellers on a street corner, will address people as "sir" or "ma'am". It's just how we're raised and it's socially encouraged, and in more prim and proper settings, enforced (troll a wedding or a funeral Bubba and his cousins will use you for target practice). So coming online and it resembles the year's trailer trash jamboree, yeah, you shut off them as you'll shut them out in RL.
They're bad company and bring trouble.
MMOs don't, for the most part, have etiquette. Devs don't, usually, enforce it. So we get every furry known in them and expected to work with folks that are socially demons (for the lack of a better term). For me, I don't pay for that. I'd pay for meeting folks on my virtual porch and chit chatting with them over a pitcher of virutal lemonade as friends and/or neighbors, as that's the world I live in RL.
Until then, it's very limited group activities.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)
In this world today, yeah, it even fits. Just like the good ol' boys aren't known to turn the other cheek, but expected to show up for church every Sunday morning!
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Meaning of a label can change.
And i think it is just a fallacy to try to define "what MMO is about".
MMOs are just entertainment products. If i want to use them as single player games, i will. What "mmo is about" is pretty much up to the individual player, and you have no way to change their minds.
Yep, mind projection fallacy.
He projects his own personal views onto reality.