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Gaming Companies Have Gone Too Far

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  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by killion81

    Don't forget the paid shills.  Well, I assume they are paid shills.  You would have to be to completely ignore all reason and maintain illogical opinions that are detrimental to the consumer.  I mean, they're consumers too.  I'd think you'd have to be paid to sell out like that.

    You do realize that not everyone has the same honest opinion about what is detrimental to consumers, right?

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • killion81killion81 Member UncommonPosts: 995
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by killion81

    Don't forget the paid shills.  Well, I assume they are paid shills.  You would have to be to completely ignore all reason and maintain illogical opinions that are detrimental to the consumer.  I mean, they're consumers too.  I'd think you'd have to be paid to sell out like that.

    You do realize that not everyone has the same honest opinion about what is detrimental to consumers, right?

     

    Yes, I also realize that some people are wrong and others are right.  Opinions impact people's perception, but they don't necessarily change whether they are wrong or right.  Reality doesn't change because of opinions :) 

  • ozmonoozmono Member UncommonPosts: 1,211
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by ozmono
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by ozmono
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Cephus404

    It's quite simple.  If you don't like what they're doing... DON'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME!

    Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

     

    It's quite simple. If you don't like what he's saying.... DON'T READ THE FUCKING THREAD!

    Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

     

     

    Works both ways you see. Stop trying to stifle discussion about issues that MMO players are concerned about. If you aren't concerned about it, feel free to say so without being rude.  Most people who think this is poor form probably won't play the game, but they don't want it to set an industry trend / standard for games they actually want to play in the future because apathetic MMO locusts don't care enough to stand up for their convictions.

    I agree his post was inappropiate and bad form.

    That doesn't mean you should answer with fallacies though.

    "apathetic MMO locusts"? Really? You point fingers at others while doing the same?

    If you want to argue, post real arguments, not ad hominems.

    It's insulting and it's hyperbole (thanks for teaching me that word too :) ) but is it really a fallacy? I know that once upon a time I could have been described as being just that and judging by my impressions of people on forums such as these and my understanding of initial playerbase followed by a sharp decline every major release I don't think I was alone. I wouldn't have liked it and it would have been an exaggeration but I don't think it's completely false.

     

    Either way, I agree, people need to calm down.

    You used the attack to weaken the counter-argument's side by attaching these negative traits to them. That's why I understood it as fallacy. 

    If you are just namecalling for the namecalling's sake without having it influence the arguments/discussion, then I agree it wouldn't be one.

    If I understood you wrong, then shame on me.

     

    Well I'm not namecalling for namecalling sake. I didn't even use the word "locust". You were calling for a balanced discussion and I thought he had a point. I acknowledged it was hyperbole and that it was insulting and I didn't place myself completely above the insult. I just thought there was some truth in there and thought it worth exploring. I can understand why you may have thought I was trying to "weaken the counter argument" though and I'm not completely free of bias so there is no need for shame.

    Yeah that was my bad, you were referring to my comment on someone else's post. I thought it was yours. Sorry.

     

    No problem, I think I've done it more than once. It wasn't necessary but thanks for apologizing.

  • GaendricGaendric Member UncommonPosts: 624
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by killion81

    Don't forget the paid shills.  Well, I assume they are paid shills.  You would have to be to completely ignore all reason and maintain illogical opinions that are detrimental to the consumer.  I mean, they're consumers too.  I'd think you'd have to be paid to sell out like that.

    You do realize that not everyone has the same honest opinion about what is detrimental to consumers, right?

    If this thread has shown anything, then that there indeed are very varied opinions on this.

     

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198

    Originally posted by killion81

     Yes, I also realize that some people are wrong and others are right.  Opinions impact people's perception, but they don't necessarily change whether they are wrong or right.  Reality doesn't change because of opinions :) 

    And do you realize that feeling very strongly about your opinion doesn't suddenly morph it into The One And Only Truth On The Matter?

    Originally posted by Gaendric

    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by killion81

    Don't forget the paid shills.  Well, I assume they are paid shills.  You would have to be to completely ignore all reason and maintain illogical opinions that are detrimental to the consumer.  I mean, they're consumers too.  I'd think you'd have to be paid to sell out like that.

    You do realize that not everyone has the same honest opinion about what is detrimental to consumers, right?

    If this thread has shown anything, then that there indeed are very varied opinions on this.

    Oh no, didn't you get the memo? Anyone who disagrees with the Correct View must be a "paid shill," because it isn't possible to actually disagree with The Truth.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • aaradunaaradun Member Posts: 91

    OP, what rock have you been living under. the collector edition is not new pretty much all MMO even the F2P had it.

    As for the Imperial thing, it's just really an additional race that you can play on either side. you won't be able to go to the other side, you just pick a side and start with that race. An additional Race is not content, it's no more then having to buy a class in a lot of F2p games. nothing really special about it.

    Your just making a big fuss for really nothing. There's no additional content, it's just a different race you can start with sheesh.

  • killion81killion81 Member UncommonPosts: 995
    Originally posted by CazNeerg

    Originally posted by killion81

     Yes, I also realize that some people are wrong and others are right.  Opinions impact people's perception, but they don't necessarily change whether they are wrong or right.  Reality doesn't change because of opinions :) 

    And do you realize that feeling very strongly about your opinion doesn't suddenly morph it into The One And Only Truth On The Matter?

     

    Absolutely.  My opinions don't create reality.  However, reality does heavily influence my opinions.

     

    Regarding harming consumers, when consumers receive less value at a higher cost, they have received harm as a whole.  Any action that reduces the value provided to the consumer while maintaining the same cost or increasing the cost is an action that harms consumers.  This is the reality of the situation.  

     

    The decisions made by Zenimax have reduced the value provided to the consumer while increasing the cost or require greater cost to maintain similar value, in comparison to competing options.  Other opinions are fine, but unless they can show that the consumer is not receiving less value (than competing products) for the same price or the same value (as competing products) for a higher price, they are not correct if they conclude that the consumer has not been harmed by the business decisions made by Zenimax.  It can be taken even further in that if these decisions are considered successful in the MMORPG market, it is more likely that companies will make similar decisions in the future, causing even more harm to consumers.

  • stealthbrstealthbr Member UncommonPosts: 1,054
    Originally posted by orionblack
    Originally posted by stealthbr
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Cephus404

    It's quite simple.  If you don't like what they're doing... DON'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME!

    Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

    yeah .. i really don't understand the rant ... people are talking as if companies are taking their babies away. We are just talking about games. If one does not work for you for whatever reasons, do something else!

    There are good tv, good movies, good novels, good comics ..... no devs owe anyone a game that they have to like, at a price or business model that they like.

     

    If your only objective is to ridicule or downplay my thread, I see no purpose in you even participating in it. Unless you have some meaningful contribution to the discussion at hand, I suggest you keep your snide comments to yourself as they do good to no one. I'm surprised I have to tell this to a 49 year old...

    Because he's not trying to down play or ridicule you, if you are an adult as you make it seem , then the simplest thing to do in this situation is..Don't buy the game.

    Regardless on how you feel on the subject ,game companies will simply keep doing these kind of thing until the GENERAL PUBLIC no longer support it.

    So yeah...alot of people do not understand why the whining about the pre order.

    And yeah...if this kind of thing makes you angry enough to yell and preach, then maybe just maybe we all should all just take a step back and realise that it is just a video game.....nothing more.

    Downplay = make something seem less important; Ridicule = Mock. Instead of presenting something meaningful he basically said: "I don't understand this because it seems unimportant to me." How does that contribute at all? Furthermore, what do people think forums are for? Praising and agreeing with everything the favored game developer does? A place where it's either "buy or don't buy", no debating allowed? It's a place for discussions, and this is one of them, so if people see no purpose in this 'whine', why bother to come in here in the first place?

  • GaendricGaendric Member UncommonPosts: 624
    Originally posted by evilastro
     New game comes out with obvious flaws, some people try to point them out and get shut down by cries of 'Shut up and don't play if you don't like it!', then a few months down the track servers are closing and the same locusts have moved on to the next big thing.

    These type of players aren't interested in sustainable MMO worlds, only in their own enjoyment for a few months, which is fine but it's not helpful for the industry in the long run.

    I totally agree the "shut up & don't play it!" cries should never drown out valid complaints. 

    We as gamers should all want successful games, that is what strengthens the market and gives us better games in future.

     

    In the context of this thread, "Don't buy it." does apply though (if delivered politely and with a real argument/explanation attached), because that is how a consumer can influence the market. 

    You vote with your wallet. Companies will listen to that. (much more than to anything else I would guess)

     

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by killion81

    Absolutely.  My opinions don't create reality.  However, reality does heavily influence my opinions.

     Regarding harming consumers, when consumers receive less value at a higher cost, they have received harm as a whole.  Any action that reduces the value provided to the consumer while maintaining the same cost or increasing the cost is an action that harms consumers.  This is the reality of the situation.   

    The decisions made by Zenimax have reduced the value provided to the consumer while increasing the cost or require greater cost to maintain similar value, in comparison to competing options.  Other opinions are fine, but unless they can show that the consumer is not receiving less value (than competing products) for the same price or the same value (as competing products) for a higher price, they are not correct if they conclude that the consumer has not been harmed by the business decisions made by Zenimax.  It can be taken even further in that if these decisions are considered successful in the MMORPG market, it is more likely that companies will make similar decisions in the future, causing even more harm to consumers.

    That is your interpretation of reality.  What is "harmful," in a financial sense, is a matter of opinion, not fact.  If the customer feels like he has received sufficient value for what he paid, he hasn't been harmed, no matter what he paid.  It could be $1.00, it could be $1,000.00.  Prices are not fixed at some arbitrary point.  Companies are not required to offer everything in the game for the price of the sub, and players are not required to give companies any money and play their games.  There is no right and wrong here, just choices and consequences.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • killion81killion81 Member UncommonPosts: 995
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by killion81

    Absolutely.  My opinions don't create reality.  However, reality does heavily influence my opinions.

     Regarding harming consumers, when consumers receive less value at a higher cost, they have received harm as a whole.  Any action that reduces the value provided to the consumer while maintaining the same cost or increasing the cost is an action that harms consumers.  This is the reality of the situation.   

    The decisions made by Zenimax have reduced the value provided to the consumer while increasing the cost or require greater cost to maintain similar value, in comparison to competing options.  Other opinions are fine, but unless they can show that the consumer is not receiving less value (than competing products) for the same price or the same value (as competing products) for a higher price, they are not correct if they conclude that the consumer has not been harmed by the business decisions made by Zenimax.  It can be taken even further in that if these decisions are considered successful in the MMORPG market, it is more likely that companies will make similar decisions in the future, causing even more harm to consumers.

    That is your interpretation of reality.  What is "harmful," in a financial sense, is a matter of opinion, not fact.  If the customer feels like he has received sufficient value for what he paid, he hasn't been harmed, no matter what he paid.  It could be $1.00, it could be $1,000.00.  Prices are not fixed at some arbitrary point.  Companies are not required to offer everything in the game for the price of the sub, and players are not required to give companies any money and play their games.  There is no right and wrong here, just choices and consequences.

     

    Perceived value is fantastic for marketing and a great way to dupe people into paying more for something than the market dictates it worth.  It's a valid sales tactic and it's used all the time.  Hell, Zenimax is attempting to manipulate the perceived value with preorder and CE bonuses.  It will probably work.

     

    However, perceived value is still different than actual delivered value.  There's a reason that consumer protection organizations exist.  It's because consumers are considered susceptible to predatory practices that don't deliver adequate real value.  However, the existence of such organizations that specialize in consumer protection shows that there is little faith that the majority of consumers can protect themselves.  That's pretty much where perceived value fits.

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by killion81 

    Perceived value is fantastic for marketing and a great way to dupe people into paying more for something than the market dictates it worth.  It's a valid sales tactic and it's used all the time.  Hell, Zenimax is attempting to manipulate the perceived value with preorder and CE bonuses.  It will probably work. 

    However, perceived value is still different than actual delivered value.  There's a reason that consumer protection organizations exist.  It's because consumers are considered susceptible to predatory practices that don't deliver adequate real value.  However, the existence of such organizations that specialize in consumer protection shows that there is little faith that the majority of consumers can protect themselves.  That's pretty much where perceived value fits.

    It's a video game, not a lawn mower, or a hammer, or something else with a practical function.  When it comes to entertainment products, the perceived value *is* the actual value.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • killion81killion81 Member UncommonPosts: 995
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by killion81 

    Perceived value is fantastic for marketing and a great way to dupe people into paying more for something than the market dictates it worth.  It's a valid sales tactic and it's used all the time.  Hell, Zenimax is attempting to manipulate the perceived value with preorder and CE bonuses.  It will probably work. 

    However, perceived value is still different than actual delivered value.  There's a reason that consumer protection organizations exist.  It's because consumers are considered susceptible to predatory practices that don't deliver adequate real value.  However, the existence of such organizations that specialize in consumer protection shows that there is little faith that the majority of consumers can protect themselves.  That's pretty much where perceived value fits.

    It's a video game, not a lawn mower, or a hammer, or something else with a practical function.  When it comes to entertainment products, the perceived value *is* the actual value.

     

    In the month or two following release, watch the posts on these forums, Reddit, wherever.  It will be very clear how well people are able to accurately gauge real value.  Most people will be purchasing based on sight unseen perceived value.  I don't think it will live up to their expectations.

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by killion81 

    In the month or two following release, watch the posts on these forums, Reddit, wherever.  It will be very clear how well people are able to accurately gauge real value.  Most people will be purchasing based on site unseen perceived value.  I don't think it will live up to their expectations.

    Well, frankly, a lot of that comes down to how lazy a given customer is.  Assuming there is either an open beta or the NDA drops a reasonable amount of time before launch, anyone who does his due diligence will likely have a perception prior to launch that lines up pretty well with the actuality after launch.  And I find it hard to have sympathy for people who pay no attention to what they are buying before they hand over the money, and then are disappointed by what they get.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • GaendricGaendric Member UncommonPosts: 624
    Originally posted by killion81

    Perceived value is fantastic for marketing and a great way to dupe people into paying more for something than the market dictates it worth.  It's a valid sales tactic and it's used all the time.  Hell, Zenimax is attempting to manipulate the perceived value with preorder and CE bonuses.  It will probably work.

     

    However, perceived value is still different than actual delivered value.  There's a reason that consumer protection organizations exist.  It's because consumers are considered susceptible to predatory practices that don't deliver adequate real value.  However, the existence of such organizations that specialize in consumer protection shows that there is little faith that the majority of consumers can protect themselves.  That's pretty much where perceived value fits.

    But what is your solution besides letting the market sort it out? 

    Ditch the free market and dictate prices? Surely can't be what you propose?

    Not trying to be a jerk here, really would like to hear a real argument what we should do.

    If it's better than a free market (with regulations against really unethical business), I am open to be swayed.

     

    But for now, running with the current free market system:

    Keep in mind, the companies just suggest prices. It's up to the consumers to accept them or not.

    The company also did market research at this point, so the price is indeed already heavily influenced by what consumers want!

     

    If a majority accepts the suggested price and buys, who are you to stand above them and tell them they are all wrong?

    If the majority doesn't accept.. well them all is good and the company will lower the price or not sell enough.

     

     

  • AsboAsbo Member UncommonPosts: 812

    Well it appears that all the negative and positive post have had an amazing impact on sales @ $99.99 seems to have gone to number one 

    http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Video-Games-PC-Hardware/zgbs/videogames/229575/ref=zg_bs_nav_vg_1_vg?tag=vglnk-c864-20

    Grats to everyone who contributed seems it will be a success after all image Keep up the good work.

     

    Asbo

  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309
    Originally posted by stealthbr

    I simply can't fathom how they believe charging $80 is fair in order to experience all the game has to offer.

    You can experience all the game has to offer for $48.   You miss out only on cosmetics - armor, white horse, non-combat pet, additional human race that's not even part of any of the alliances.   But the entire game's content is available to you.   

     

    Additional cosmetic options have been parts of special editions since forever.  I still remember getting my special collector's edition helmet for SWG, and my talking statue (zomg, my own personal Heather Graham!) from EQ2   Sure, one could say that you haven't experienced the "ENTIRE" game if you never wore the special edition helmet or heard the extra speech recorded by Rollergirl, but honestly, if it means that much to you, pay the $20 extra and get those things.    

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,905

    And here I thought this was a thread about Kickstarter tiered paygates that run into the tens of thousands....

     

    Never mind... going back to listening to Pink Floyd with my $39.99 headphones.

    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • ozmonoozmono Member UncommonPosts: 1,211
    Originally posted by Iselin

    And here I thought this was a thread about Kickstarter tiered paygates that run into the tens of thousands....

     

    Never mind... going back to listening to Pink Floyd with my $39.99 headphones.

    "Do you think you can tell?"

  • SirPKsAlotSirPKsAlot Member Posts: 224
    Originally posted by ozmono
    Originally posted by Iselin

    And here I thought this was a thread about Kickstarter tiered paygates that run into the tens of thousands....

     

    Never mind... going back to listening to Pink Floyd with my $39.99 headphones.

    "Do you think you can tell?"

    What, no .flac?

    image
    Currently playing: Eldevin Online as a Deadly Assassin

  • udonudon Member UncommonPosts: 1,803
    Originally posted by Lucioon

    This is a Sub Game, that means you pay $15 a month every month to get access to content .

    When they have decided to go this route, they specifically stated that they choose this model to ensure everyone have access to 100% content so they are not going the B2P or F2P model. They will stand their ground with the P2P model instead.

    100% content is not Locked race for CE editions

    Sure you can pay more, but should you ??

    That is the question, its not about $20 dollars , its about it being sub based game that will have locked content

    If it was B2P or F2P , then paying extra for extra content versus those that doesn't pay extra is accepted.

    But as an Sub based P2P game, you are asking for Monthly payments for those that buys the Standard edition, without having the ability or chance to experience a part of the game.

    That it self is wrong.

     

    There is no precedent , over thousands of MMO that has been developed, or is being developed, you will not find an Sub based MMO that begin with an Locked Race that is only available if you get the Collector's edition.

    You get pets, boosts, but nothing in the form that ESO is doing.

    Doesn't matter how you spin it, it is the wrong thing to do, and its definitely losing me as a customer. I was on the fence before, but now, its definitely not a buy. Not even gonna wait to see if the game is any good, with their business model, it will only get worse from here.

    Your assuming that there is no way to unlock these races in game.  SWTOR lets you unlock races either by buying them or leveling a toon of that race to cap.  It didn't launch that way but regardless it's how the game works today even for sub players.

    I am a fan of this game and looking forward to it but I really hope that they have a way to unlock races for other factions and the imperial race available via other means than just to buy the collectors version.  

  • ozmonoozmono Member UncommonPosts: 1,211
    Originally posted by SirPKsAlot
    Originally posted by ozmono
    Originally posted by Iselin

    And here I thought this was a thread about Kickstarter tiered paygates that run into the tens of thousands....

     

    Never mind... going back to listening to Pink Floyd with my $39.99 headphones.

    "Do you think you can tell?"

    What, no .flac?

    I was more interested in getting the album cover right since you mention it ;)

  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Member Posts: 379
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
    Originally posted by evilastro
    The saddest thing about this whole incident are the people defending it.  I guess we all have them to thank for publishers and developers somehow thinking that it is OK to sell in-game advantages over other players, even in a subscription game.

    The mount and other features are par on course for a CE, but not a standard race been in the game for over 10 years.

     

    If anyone needs an example of cash grab/milking, the ESO CE is the epitome of it. For that it should be condemned.

     Races that never been played could've been added (vampires comes to mind),

    Nitpick:  vampires aren't exactly a "race" in TES lore.  You could plausibly create a mechanical model that treated them as such, though doing so without (further) alienating lore purists would be awkward, but officially speaking they're more of a cross-racial modification.

    Akaviri, on the other hand...

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  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Member UncommonPosts: 2,077
    Originally posted by Gaendric
      But what is your solution besides letting the market sort it out? 

    Ditch the free market and dictate prices? Surely can't be what you propose?

     

    Looking at the World of Logs top healing stats, I wish players could sort out the healing amounts instead of Blizzard. :/

     

    I mean they have the logs; they means test; and one healing class still has only 25 top healers in 4 versions of raids?

     

    If Blizzard doesn't care, the players could do better because they do care. o.O

     

    Short of it, if you let the publishers do what they damn well please they can -- and have -- run their own IP into the ground sometimes just for kicks. -_-

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