regarding your criticism that every new mmo is solo friendly
it's true but i don't see that as a bad thing
Keyword in the MMORPG>MULTIPLAYER,why make a game that can hold MASSIVE and MULTIPLAYER and on the internet to play solo,it makes zero sense,that is a single player game design,is why most of these games should not be calling themselves MMORPG's.
FFXI is the LAST mainstream game to get it right,both CHOICE in where you get xp,NO linear questing and designed for grouping,that of course has changed now as Square Enix went lame like the rest,looking for maximum profit but it backfired MANY left because of it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by Flyte27 I also dislike how PvP impacts PvE. My main gripe has always been how generic and boring skills/stats have ended up in games these days. You can't have one race or class that is better at something. They all have to be equal so that they always have a chance to win. This basically means no fun abilities are allow as they might be exploited in PvP. Skills can't have a long duration and need to have long cool downs in many cases. It generally means all skills will be combat oriented in some way. There can be no fun role play stuff like levitating and then nuking something from the sky or increasing movement speed in and out of combat, being able to breath underwater as someone could exploit that against someone who can't breath underwater. You can't have things like illusion spells because it will allow for sneak attacks against other players. I liked Ultima Online a lot, but PvP drove me away to EQ. As much as I like a challenge I thought getting ganked by real players constantly and losing hours of work spending gaining items was so frustrating that I really didn't want to stick around. It was so frustrating it is hard to explain. I don't think any game in this age can replicate the experience. My first experience in the game was walking out of town and getting killed by a players fireball I believe. Then they looted my cloth robe and stick I believe so I was left naked lol.
Sandbox pvp oriented mmos are a OTHER world, the needs, priorities, mindset and expected behavior are completely different and seens alien to your playstyle. You never should enter in a mmo like these.
regarding your criticism that every new mmo is solo friendly
it's true but i don't see that as a bad thing
The fact that they are solo friendly isn't a bad thing. The fact that there is not enough incentive to group with others is the whole problem. There is no community in today's MMOs.
EQ was extreme with forced grouping to level, but it had a great community because of it. I met and came to know more people in that MMO than in every MMO combined that I have played since.
Originally posted by zwei2 When the day where humans can enter virtual reality in order to act as their own avatar, a new breed of MMO is born, and all hell break loose.
Nope. Would suck for gamers.
Proof- Chat Roulette. The Internet. Etc.
You make a game where people can enter virtual reality and I guarantee you it's going to be nothing but dongs 24/7. Real life humanity vs imaginary movie humanity are not the same. If you build it, people will put their wiener on it.
The fact that they are solo friendly isn't a bad thing. The fact that there is not enough incentive to group with others is the whole problem. There is no community in today's MMOs.
It is not a problem for me. I don't play games for the community. I play them for entertainment & fun. Community is not required for that (to me).
The fact that they are solo friendly isn't a bad thing. The fact that there is not enough incentive to group with others is the whole problem. There is no community in today's MMOs.
It is not a problem for me. I don't play games for the community. I play them for entertainment & fun. Community is not required for that (to me).
The problem with you, is you have written this exact post probably over 200 hundred times. Sure there is repetition on these forums, but you take it to such an extreme that it becomes embarrassing.
If you're so into forum PVP then put some bloody effort into it and get some new material.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
why do you want to play mmos if you dislike grouping?
Social does not equal grouping.
I've been in many groups where the players said NOT ONE WORD! Not one. I started saying thing but no one ever commented. And I'm not even talking about "shooting the shit". which I don't really like doing once combat begins.
I've also had huge conversations with people where we never engaged in one aspect of the game play.
So again: Social does not equal grouping. MMO's are about the social aspect. What you do on the context of that social aspect is up to you and up to what the game allows.
@OP: there are many games out there. Try Ryzom for one.
Sometimes being social is just interacting in some way like working together in combat...
Mostly I would group up out of necessity.
The Multiplayer part of MMOs does not, or should not, mean 'group up for combat'.
I think the real problem is your last statement. No one should ever group up in a game they play for fun out of necessity. It should be done out of preference. It is fact that MMOs, as solo-friendly as they claim to be, always fall back on making it mandatory group up for maximum progression.
"Sure, you've reached maximum level, but there's a whole bunch of cool content and great gear you can earn, but you HAVE to group up for even a chance at it."
That is the heart of the issue. I don't mind that there's some group only content. I very much mind that all the worthwhile endgame content is group only.
The fact that they are solo friendly isn't a bad thing. The fact that there is not enough incentive to group with others is the whole problem. There is no community in today's MMOs.
It is not a problem for me. I don't play games for the community. I play them for entertainment & fun. Community is not required for that (to me).
The problem with you, is you have written this exact post probably over 200 hundred times. Sure there is repetition on these forums, but you take it to such an extreme that it becomes embarrassing.
If you're so into forum PVP then put some bloody effort into it and get some new material.
Really? Harsh PD, cry for sandbox, crafting and what not are being repeated again, again and again every day here. There is very little new. If it is fun, i will continue to discuss in ways i like.
And btw, i miss the definition of MMO .... how much discussion about THAT is being done day in and day out?
That is the heart of the issue. I don't mind that there's some group only content. I very much mind that all the worthwhile endgame content is group only.
Wow did solve that problem somewhat by LFD, LFR, and BG.
While technically you still have to group with others, you don't have to talk to him, and you can pretty much treat them as NPCs. So i would say that is at least half a solution.
Never understood the people who only want to solo. Now, I understand if you can't get a group and don't want to sit around all day and wanting to be able to achieve something. MMO's have bad game play typically compared to single player RPG's. Only reason to tolerate the worse game mechanics of an MMO are in order to be able to group up and or compete with other human players. There may be some persistent worlds out there that are fun to play in, just not sure what they are.
Never understood the people who only want to solo. Now, I understand if you can't get a group and don't want to sit around all day and wanting to be able to achieve something. MMO's have bad game play typically compared to single player RPG's. Only reason to tolerate the worse game mechanics of an MMO are in order to be able to group up and or compete with other human players. There may be some persistent worlds out there that are fun to play in, just not sure what they are.
You don't need to understand them, only to accept that they exist, and they are actually a pretty big part of the market.
I don't tolerate anything in games. If i play a MMO solo, that is because the mechanics is fun.
Originally posted by Jakdstripperwhy do you want to play mmos if you dislike grouping?
Social does not equal grouping.I've been in many groups where the players said NOT ONE WORD! Not one. I started saying thing but no one ever commented. And I'm not even talking about "shooting the shit". which I don't really like doing once combat begins.I've also had huge conversations with people where we never engaged in one aspect of the game play.So again: Social does not equal grouping. MMO's are about the social aspect. What you do on the context of that social aspect is up to you and up to what the game allows.@OP: there are many games out there. Try Ryzom for one.
Sometimes being social is just interacting in some way like working together in combat... Mostly I would group up out of necessity.
The Multiplayer part of MMOs does not, or should not, mean 'group up for combat'.
I think the real problem is your last statement. No one should ever group up in a game they play for fun out of necessity. It should be done out of preference. It is fact that MMOs, as solo-friendly as they claim to be, always fall back on making it mandatory group up for maximum progression.
"Sure, you've reached maximum level, but there's a whole bunch of cool content and great gear you can earn, but you HAVE to group up for even a chance at it."
That is the heart of the issue. I don't mind that there's some group only content. I very much mind that all the worthwhile endgame content is group only.
Based on this response again it seems like GW2 is what you're looking for- you can get top end gear grinding and crafting.
I'll also say that while I disagree that MMOs shouldn't force players to group I do think that it's poor direction/practice to give players so many options for solo play to progress and then bait-and-switch at endgame to forced grouping for progression. Solo options for combat in MMOs should be present at every step of the game or none at all. (I'd gladly play the latter)
That is the heart of the issue. I don't mind that there's some group only content. I very much mind that all the worthwhile endgame content is group only.
With all due respect, sir, to me this sounds like if you were playing a flight simulator on auto-pilot with guiding missiles which can't miss, skipping take-offs and landings.
Imo, MMOs exists to group up with other people and to socialize with them. Take that away and there's only a single player game with a sub fee that is left.
Imo, MMOs exists to group up with other people and to socialize with them. Take that away and there's only a single player game with a sub fee that is left.
nah ..
First, what sub fee? Most MMOs are f2p.
Secondly, who says i cannot play a MMO for the setting, IP or game mechanics? In fact, i do that. There is nothing anyone can do to change that.
If all you like is pure healing then yes, it's not the game for you. If you think you may be interested in supporting your allies through means beyond direct heals though it may surprise you. You can find a lot more synergy, for example an elementalist can put down a water field and have a warrior blast the water providing everyone in the area with a regeneration buff.
I support my allies via direct healing. That's my role. That's what I set to do when I created my toon back in 2009.
If I'm DPS with off-heals it wouldn't feel like a dedicated healer anymore, and why would I just want to return to being a typical paladin again?
I came from EQII where I did just that, a heck of a lot of off-heals. And it finally dawned on me there, if I heal that much as a paladin, I might as well heal full time.
So no I don't want to return to being a typical paladin who off-heals. I like healing in plate, having a nice shield and looking the part!
That is the heart of the issue. I don't mind that there's some group only content. I very much mind that all the worthwhile endgame content is group only.
With all due respect, sir, to me this sounds like if you were playing a flight simulator on auto-pilot with guiding missiles which can't miss, skipping take-offs and landings.
Imo, MMOs exists to group up with other people and to socialize with them. Take that away and there's only a single player game with a sub fee that is left.
Have you ever played a cool single player game RPG, like Fallout 3, or The Witcher, or Dragon Age? I have played plenty of those.
MMOs tend to have way more content than single player games. I want to play an MMO just like those single player games, but it'll be a nice loooong game, with lots of content.
Oh, and it'll also seem way more alive because it's filled with actual people and not one-line NPCs. And it has an auction house. And I can group up if I CHOOSE to.
In none of those single player games did I ever get to a point where I was unable to continue unless I had others who were also ready and willing to do the content at the same time. That's what I want from an MMO. That OPTION. Keep some group content, no problem. But FFS, stop having every GD MMO force grouping to be able to experience the endgame.
Ultimately, I think MMOs can be a superior experience for a soloer as long as they remove the barriers. That's all they need to do; add viable, soloable options for the endgame. SWTOR could have done this by allowing players to take 3 companions with them instead of insisting that they be real players. I would probably still be playing it now if that had been the case.
That is the heart of the issue. I don't mind that there's some group only content. I very much mind that all the worthwhile endgame content is group only.
With all due respect, sir, to me this sounds like if you were playing a flight simulator on auto-pilot with guiding missiles which can't miss, skipping take-offs and landings.
Imo, MMOs exists to group up with other people and to socialize with them. Take that away and there's only a single player game with a sub fee that is left.
Have you ever played a cool single player game RPG, like Fallout 3, or The Witcher, or Dragon Age? I have played plenty of those.
MMOs tend to have way more content than single player games. I want to play an MMO just like those single player games, but it'll be a nice loooong game, with lots of content.
Oh, and it'll also seem way more alive because it's filled with actual people and not one-line NPCs. And it has an auction house. And I can group up if I CHOOSE to.
In none of those single player games did I ever get to a point where I was unable to continue unless I had others who were also ready and willing to do the content at the same time. That's what I want from an MMO. That OPTION. Keep some group content, no problem. But FFS, stop having every GD MMO force grouping to be able to experience the endgame.
Ultimately, I think MMOs can be a superior experience for a soloer as long as they remove the barriers. That's all they need to do; add viable, soloable options for the endgame. SWTOR could have done this by allowing players to take 3 companions with them instead of insisting that they be real players. I would probably still be playing it now if that had been the case.
The so called content is generally terrible to read or even listen to. I'm playing through an old Nintendo DS game called Dragon Quest IV and it has better to story than pretty much any MMORPG I've ever played. It also has more enjoyable game mechanics IMO. Usually MMOs have some epic reason for going to kill a bunch of mobs. You just have to click the exclamation point, follow the GPS, rinse and repeat about 100000 times. You can read the story, but I find it gets monotonous and boring usually. There are only so many ways you can save the day. I find it better without content. I don't have to worry about following any specific path or reading tuns of generic dialogue. I can just go out and explore/find things to do. It's pretty relaxing actually.
That is the heart of the issue. I don't mind that there's some group only content. I very much mind that all the worthwhile endgame content is group only.
With all due respect, sir, to me this sounds like if you were playing a flight simulator on auto-pilot with guiding missiles which can't miss, skipping take-offs and landings.
Imo, MMOs exists to group up with other people and to socialize with them. Take that away and there's only a single player game with a sub fee that is left.
Have you ever played a cool single player game RPG, like Fallout 3, or The Witcher, or Dragon Age? I have played plenty of those.
MMOs tend to have way more content than single player games. I want to play an MMO just like those single player games, but it'll be a nice loooong game, with lots of content.
Oh, and it'll also seem way more alive because it's filled with actual people and not one-line NPCs. And it has an auction house. And I can group up if I CHOOSE to.
In none of those single player games did I ever get to a point where I was unable to continue unless I had others who were also ready and willing to do the content at the same time. That's what I want from an MMO. That OPTION. Keep some group content, no problem. But FFS, stop having every GD MMO force grouping to be able to experience the endgame.
Ultimately, I think MMOs can be a superior experience for a soloer as long as they remove the barriers. That's all they need to do; add viable, soloable options for the endgame. SWTOR could have done this by allowing players to take 3 companions with them instead of insisting that they be real players. I would probably still be playing it now if that had been the case.
I see your point and even agree with it, in a way.
I've played all kinds of RPGs from late 80's to this day and i still play P&P RPGs every now and then (getting the group together is somewhat harder now when we're older). Ever since i played Dungeon Master or Eye of the Beholder i though how cool would it be to play the same game with real people, so that each player only had one character, and we could speak to each others and trade stuff if we liked.
Most of the time, while playing MMO, i want to play alone. I play games for relaxation, and too much hassle around me bothers me and breaks my concentration. I want to do group content but only when i so choose. That much i can agree with you
What i think is the problem, is the game design. We're being taught the way to play MMOs is to solo for few weeks from 1 to level cap, and then begin the all mighty end game where the actual game really starts (or so they say). The way i would like it to be, is to solo for several months (if not years) with occasional grouping for dungeons and group quests from 1 to almost the level cap, but before i reach it, the developer patches additional content and raises the level cap to new point.
I've always seen raiding in MMOs as a filler content for those who have already consumed 'the real content'. So instead of leveling up fast to the cap and then doing the same raids for several months i'd like to level up slow and run a different dungeon in every week and never reach the point i should even think of doing same raids over and over again. There are those who enjoy that and play these games only for organised raiding, but i'm not one of them.
The pacing in original WoW was perfect for my play style (could have been a bit slower too), since while i played a lot i never ran out of soloable content, and when i finally did, i had almost forgotten the low level content and it was fun to start over with another character.
That is the heart of the issue. I don't mind that there's some group only content. I very much mind that all the worthwhile endgame content is group only.
With all due respect, sir, to me this sounds like if you were playing a flight simulator on auto-pilot with guiding missiles which can't miss, skipping take-offs and landings.
Imo, MMOs exists to group up with other people and to socialize with them. Take that away and there's only a single player game with a sub fee that is left.
Have you ever played a cool single player game RPG, like Fallout 3, or The Witcher, or Dragon Age? I have played plenty of those.
MMOs tend to have way more content than single player games. I want to play an MMO just like those single player games, but it'll be a nice loooong game, with lots of content.
Oh, and it'll also seem way more alive because it's filled with actual people and not one-line NPCs. And it has an auction house. And I can group up if I CHOOSE to.
In none of those single player games did I ever get to a point where I was unable to continue unless I had others who were also ready and willing to do the content at the same time. That's what I want from an MMO. That OPTION. Keep some group content, no problem. But FFS, stop having every GD MMO force grouping to be able to experience the endgame.
Ultimately, I think MMOs can be a superior experience for a soloer as long as they remove the barriers. That's all they need to do; add viable, soloable options for the endgame. SWTOR could have done this by allowing players to take 3 companions with them instead of insisting that they be real players. I would probably still be playing it now if that had been the case.
The so called content is generally terrible to read or even listen to. I'm playing through an old Nintendo DS game called Dragon Quest IV and it has better to story than pretty much any MMORPG I've ever played. It also has more enjoyable game mechanics IMO. Usually MMOs have some epic reason for going to kill a bunch of mobs. You just have to click the exclamation point, follow the GPS, rinse and repeat about 100000 times. You can read the story, but I find it gets monotonous and boring usually. There are only so many ways you can save the day. I find it better without content. I don't have to worry about following any specific path or reading tuns of generic dialogue. I can just go out and explore/find things to do. It's pretty relaxing actually.
Oh yes, this is a good point. What these MMO developers seem to have forgotten on the path to modern MMOs is that killing and looting mobs is the cornerstone of an MMO (themepark MMOs, at least). Even if the game was nothing else than killing and looting mobs, it would be fun enough to spend some time.
I played wow trial few weeks ago, and at some point i had completed more quests than i had killed mobs, and that's sad.
That is the heart of the issue. I don't mind that there's some group only content. I very much mind that all the worthwhile endgame content is group only.
With all due respect, sir, to me this sounds like if you were playing a flight simulator on auto-pilot with guiding missiles which can't miss, skipping take-offs and landings.
Imo, MMOs exists to group up with other people and to socialize with them. Take that away and there's only a single player game with a sub fee that is left.
Have you ever played a cool single player game RPG, like Fallout 3, or The Witcher, or Dragon Age? I have played plenty of those.
MMOs tend to have way more content than single player games. I want to play an MMO just like those single player games, but it'll be a nice loooong game, with lots of content.
Oh, and it'll also seem way more alive because it's filled with actual people and not one-line NPCs. And it has an auction house. And I can group up if I CHOOSE to.
In none of those single player games did I ever get to a point where I was unable to continue unless I had others who were also ready and willing to do the content at the same time. That's what I want from an MMO. That OPTION. Keep some group content, no problem. But FFS, stop having every GD MMO force grouping to be able to experience the endgame.
Ultimately, I think MMOs can be a superior experience for a soloer as long as they remove the barriers. That's all they need to do; add viable, soloable options for the endgame. SWTOR could have done this by allowing players to take 3 companions with them instead of insisting that they be real players. I would probably still be playing it now if that had been the case.
The so called content is generally terrible to read or even listen to. I'm playing through an old Nintendo DS game called Dragon Quest IV and it has better to story than pretty much any MMORPG I've ever played. It also has more enjoyable game mechanics IMO. Usually MMOs have some epic reason for going to kill a bunch of mobs. You just have to click the exclamation point, follow the GPS, rinse and repeat about 100000 times. You can read the story, but I find it gets monotonous and boring usually. There are only so many ways you can save the day. I find it better without content. I don't have to worry about following any specific path or reading tuns of generic dialogue. I can just go out and explore/find things to do. It's pretty relaxing actually.
Oh yes, this is a good point. What these MMO developers seem to have forgotten on the path to modern MMOs is that killing and looting mobs is the cornerstone of an MMO (themepark MMOs, at least). Even if the game was nothing else than killing and looting mobs, it would be fun enough to spend some time.
I played wow trial few weeks ago, and at some point i had completed more quests than i had killed mobs, and that's sad.
It's not just killing and looting, but yeah I would prefer not needing to follow quests around. Quests become a tedious grind themselves. You end up killing things anyway. I'd rather explore around and find things to do. I don't even mind quests that much as long as I have to find talk to people and follow some form of direction. I've limited interest in reading them solely for the story. For instance if you talked to a bunch of NPCs and one said they needed help killing invading orcs that are attacking somewhere in the northwest. That would at least be something as reading the quest would have some sort of meaning. The meaning would be that you have to be able to understand which directions are north/west and navigate to them. I still prefer to go out and do my own thing though. Maybe I'd just work on crafting, build a house, explore new areas/dugeons, or yes kill something. Perhaps those somethings might be evil trolls, animals, or even cute haflings. I remember some people in EQ used to level off killing various town guards and NPCs in town (role playing evil).
ok ok ill upset you MMO'S in genral pander to the wide majority of gamers. its why world of warcraft was so damn popular.. take note i said popular and not good.!! its a common misconception which many people have taken as gospel and even believed the lie them selves while telling it. the truth is wow is bad! it just covers all the bases and attracts all the players as it does it all well almost all. i can name things wow doesnt offer which is why i dont play it but im not here to bash a game ive done enough of that.
not all mmo's are the same. there are a select few out there that give you the option to do one or the other and still be good. take eve online for example. it is said that its impossible to max out your charecter and get all the best gear as new content is released all the time further expanding on charecter customisation and progression. in eve you can explicitly pve!! but eve doesnt protect you from the pvp'ers sure it has its so called safe spots which are as safe as the pilots allow it to be. if you want to explore eve and experience everything it has to offer you can freely walk into pvp territory with a risk of course and still use the content but with a highly exagerated risk of being ganked but you are still able to pve in pvp space if your brave enough.. eve also offers group play solo play role play politics diplomacy espionage and many many other kinds of play you simply wont find in other mmo.s
on the other side of the spectrum you did have swg!! again its kinda similar to eve with a few major differences. swg is more pve focussed! with a specific zone for pvp if you so chose to go pvp. you could also opt in and out of the galactic civil war if you liked making you either pvp or none pvp so a on off switch if you will . which i have always liked.
developers do not care for one genre or another. all they care about is proffits and product the masses are willing to play. its impossible to create something that every one will love so instead they do reseearch into the most popular games and to see what people are playing and i hate to admit this but its still world of warcraft as the leader! more people play that game than any other and that is and will remain the benchmark for all games today.. its simple easy and a breeze to get on with.. it has nothing complex or difficult it offers instant gratification and to get best gear you can simply buy it with gold you purchase from 3rd party law breakers like every other player on the planet well the vast majority.. i doubt many people can hold their hand up honestly and say they have never paid for gold to get ahead in game. you would be a liar if you said other wise. its a simple human fact of nature.!!! we like stuff to be simple and easy and handed to us on a plate for the taking. we always take the easy option over the hard. its just human nature. there are a few of us that prefer the challange and the excitement of failing and we are the ones that choose games such as eve online swg darkfall mortal online and so on. we are the minority so developers cant find a valid reason to build us a game we want. and you can have a sandbox themepark without ruining the sandbox side of it. so they just make theme parks instead. take eso!!!! its a themepark! they just made charecter selection a little more complex and gave you skills to train and levels too. makes it a bit more envolving. but when it boils down to it.. you are still just grinding levels on your toon.
Comments
The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.
Keyword in the MMORPG>MULTIPLAYER,why make a game that can hold MASSIVE and MULTIPLAYER and on the internet to play solo,it makes zero sense,that is a single player game design,is why most of these games should not be calling themselves MMORPG's.
FFXI is the LAST mainstream game to get it right,both CHOICE in where you get xp,NO linear questing and designed for grouping,that of course has changed now as Square Enix went lame like the rest,looking for maximum profit but it backfired MANY left because of it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Sandbox pvp oriented mmos are a OTHER world, the needs, priorities, mindset and expected behavior are completely different and seens alien to your playstyle. You never should enter in a mmo like these.
The fact that they are solo friendly isn't a bad thing. The fact that there is not enough incentive to group with others is the whole problem. There is no community in today's MMOs.
EQ was extreme with forced grouping to level, but it had a great community because of it. I met and came to know more people in that MMO than in every MMO combined that I have played since.
Nope.
Would suck for gamers.
Proof- Chat Roulette. The Internet. Etc.
You make a game where people can enter virtual reality and I guarantee you it's going to be nothing but dongs 24/7. Real life humanity vs imaginary movie humanity are not the same. If you build it, people will put their wiener on it.
It is not a problem for me. I don't play games for the community. I play them for entertainment & fun. Community is not required for that (to me).
The problem with you, is you have written this exact post probably over 200 hundred times. Sure there is repetition on these forums, but you take it to such an extreme that it becomes embarrassing.
If you're so into forum PVP then put some bloody effort into it and get some new material.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
The Multiplayer part of MMOs does not, or should not, mean 'group up for combat'.
I think the real problem is your last statement. No one should ever group up in a game they play for fun out of necessity. It should be done out of preference. It is fact that MMOs, as solo-friendly as they claim to be, always fall back on making it mandatory group up for maximum progression.
"Sure, you've reached maximum level, but there's a whole bunch of cool content and great gear you can earn, but you HAVE to group up for even a chance at it."
That is the heart of the issue. I don't mind that there's some group only content. I very much mind that all the worthwhile endgame content is group only.
Really? Harsh PD, cry for sandbox, crafting and what not are being repeated again, again and again every day here. There is very little new. If it is fun, i will continue to discuss in ways i like.
And btw, i miss the definition of MMO .... how much discussion about THAT is being done day in and day out?
Wow did solve that problem somewhat by LFD, LFR, and BG.
While technically you still have to group with others, you don't have to talk to him, and you can pretty much treat them as NPCs. So i would say that is at least half a solution.
Never understood the people who only want to solo. Now, I understand if you can't get a group and don't want to sit around all day and wanting to be able to achieve something. MMO's have bad game play typically compared to single player RPG's. Only reason to tolerate the worse game mechanics of an MMO are in order to be able to group up and or compete with other human players. There may be some persistent worlds out there that are fun to play in, just not sure what they are.
You don't need to understand them, only to accept that they exist, and they are actually a pretty big part of the market.
I don't tolerate anything in games. If i play a MMO solo, that is because the mechanics is fun.
Nowadays, when I see a new MMORPG I think: Same shit, different name.
I still dreaming with a mmo truly action combat based, where I don't feel like a stupid man pushing buttons only to make abilities.
That's my high priority. Then comes the environment, context and history of the universe.
I know that's like dreaming about a world without bad people.
Based on this response again it seems like GW2 is what you're looking for- you can get top end gear grinding and crafting.
I'll also say that while I disagree that MMOs shouldn't force players to group I do think that it's poor direction/practice to give players so many options for solo play to progress and then bait-and-switch at endgame to forced grouping for progression. Solo options for combat in MMOs should be present at every step of the game or none at all. (I'd gladly play the latter)
With all due respect, sir, to me this sounds like if you were playing a flight simulator on auto-pilot with guiding missiles which can't miss, skipping take-offs and landings.
Imo, MMOs exists to group up with other people and to socialize with them. Take that away and there's only a single player game with a sub fee that is left.
Or enjoy frequent patch updates that don't end in 2 years, which happens with offline RPGs.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
nah ..
First, what sub fee? Most MMOs are f2p.
Secondly, who says i cannot play a MMO for the setting, IP or game mechanics? In fact, i do that. There is nothing anyone can do to change that.
I support my allies via direct healing. That's my role. That's what I set to do when I created my toon back in 2009.
If I'm DPS with off-heals it wouldn't feel like a dedicated healer anymore, and why would I just want to return to being a typical paladin again?
I came from EQII where I did just that, a heck of a lot of off-heals. And it finally dawned on me there, if I heal that much as a paladin, I might as well heal full time.
So no I don't want to return to being a typical paladin who off-heals. I like healing in plate, having a nice shield and looking the part!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g---BzLfN2w
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Have you ever played a cool single player game RPG, like Fallout 3, or The Witcher, or Dragon Age? I have played plenty of those.
MMOs tend to have way more content than single player games. I want to play an MMO just like those single player games, but it'll be a nice loooong game, with lots of content.
Oh, and it'll also seem way more alive because it's filled with actual people and not one-line NPCs. And it has an auction house. And I can group up if I CHOOSE to.
In none of those single player games did I ever get to a point where I was unable to continue unless I had others who were also ready and willing to do the content at the same time. That's what I want from an MMO. That OPTION. Keep some group content, no problem. But FFS, stop having every GD MMO force grouping to be able to experience the endgame.
Ultimately, I think MMOs can be a superior experience for a soloer as long as they remove the barriers. That's all they need to do; add viable, soloable options for the endgame. SWTOR could have done this by allowing players to take 3 companions with them instead of insisting that they be real players. I would probably still be playing it now if that had been the case.
The so called content is generally terrible to read or even listen to. I'm playing through an old Nintendo DS game called Dragon Quest IV and it has better to story than pretty much any MMORPG I've ever played. It also has more enjoyable game mechanics IMO. Usually MMOs have some epic reason for going to kill a bunch of mobs. You just have to click the exclamation point, follow the GPS, rinse and repeat about 100000 times. You can read the story, but I find it gets monotonous and boring usually. There are only so many ways you can save the day. I find it better without content. I don't have to worry about following any specific path or reading tuns of generic dialogue. I can just go out and explore/find things to do. It's pretty relaxing actually.
I see your point and even agree with it, in a way.
I've played all kinds of RPGs from late 80's to this day and i still play P&P RPGs every now and then (getting the group together is somewhat harder now when we're older). Ever since i played Dungeon Master or Eye of the Beholder i though how cool would it be to play the same game with real people, so that each player only had one character, and we could speak to each others and trade stuff if we liked.
Most of the time, while playing MMO, i want to play alone. I play games for relaxation, and too much hassle around me bothers me and breaks my concentration. I want to do group content but only when i so choose. That much i can agree with you
What i think is the problem, is the game design. We're being taught the way to play MMOs is to solo for few weeks from 1 to level cap, and then begin the all mighty end game where the actual game really starts (or so they say). The way i would like it to be, is to solo for several months (if not years) with occasional grouping for dungeons and group quests from 1 to almost the level cap, but before i reach it, the developer patches additional content and raises the level cap to new point.
I've always seen raiding in MMOs as a filler content for those who have already consumed 'the real content'. So instead of leveling up fast to the cap and then doing the same raids for several months i'd like to level up slow and run a different dungeon in every week and never reach the point i should even think of doing same raids over and over again. There are those who enjoy that and play these games only for organised raiding, but i'm not one of them.
The pacing in original WoW was perfect for my play style (could have been a bit slower too), since while i played a lot i never ran out of soloable content, and when i finally did, i had almost forgotten the low level content and it was fun to start over with another character.
Oh yes, this is a good point. What these MMO developers seem to have forgotten on the path to modern MMOs is that killing and looting mobs is the cornerstone of an MMO (themepark MMOs, at least). Even if the game was nothing else than killing and looting mobs, it would be fun enough to spend some time.
I played wow trial few weeks ago, and at some point i had completed more quests than i had killed mobs, and that's sad.
It's not just killing and looting, but yeah I would prefer not needing to follow quests around. Quests become a tedious grind themselves. You end up killing things anyway. I'd rather explore around and find things to do. I don't even mind quests that much as long as I have to find talk to people and follow some form of direction. I've limited interest in reading them solely for the story. For instance if you talked to a bunch of NPCs and one said they needed help killing invading orcs that are attacking somewhere in the northwest. That would at least be something as reading the quest would have some sort of meaning. The meaning would be that you have to be able to understand which directions are north/west and navigate to them. I still prefer to go out and do my own thing though. Maybe I'd just work on crafting, build a house, explore new areas/dugeons, or yes kill something. Perhaps those somethings might be evil trolls, animals, or even cute haflings. I remember some people in EQ used to level off killing various town guards and NPCs in town (role playing evil).
ok ok ill upset you
MMO'S in genral pander to the wide majority of gamers. its why world of warcraft was so damn popular.. take note i said popular and not good.!! its a common misconception which many people have taken as gospel and even believed the lie them selves while telling it. the truth is wow is bad! it just covers all the bases and attracts all the players as it does it all well almost all. i can name things wow doesnt offer which is why i dont play it but im not here to bash a game ive done enough of that.
not all mmo's are the same. there are a select few out there that give you the option to do one or the other and still be good. take eve online for example. it is said that its impossible to max out your charecter and get all the best gear as new content is released all the time further expanding on charecter customisation and progression. in eve you can explicitly pve!! but eve doesnt protect you from the pvp'ers sure it has its so called safe spots which are as safe as the pilots allow it to be. if you want to explore eve and experience everything it has to offer you can freely walk into pvp territory with a risk of course and still use the content but with a highly exagerated risk of being ganked but you are still able to pve in pvp space if your brave enough.. eve also offers group play solo play role play politics diplomacy espionage and many many other kinds of play you simply wont find in other mmo.s
on the other side of the spectrum you did have swg!! again its kinda similar to eve with a few major differences. swg is more pve focussed! with a specific zone for pvp if you so chose to go pvp. you could also opt in and out of the galactic civil war if you liked making you either pvp or none pvp so a on off switch if you will . which i have always liked.
developers do not care for one genre or another. all they care about is proffits and product the masses are willing to play. its impossible to create something that every one will love so instead they do reseearch into the most popular games and to see what people are playing and i hate to admit this but its still world of warcraft as the leader! more people play that game than any other and that is and will remain the benchmark for all games today.. its simple easy and a breeze to get on with.. it has nothing complex or difficult it offers instant gratification and to get best gear you can simply buy it with gold you purchase from 3rd party law breakers like every other player on the planet well the vast majority.. i doubt many people can hold their hand up honestly and say they have never paid for gold to get ahead in game. you would be a liar if you said other wise. its a simple human fact of nature.!!! we like stuff to be simple and easy and handed to us on a plate for the taking. we always take the easy option over the hard. its just human nature. there are a few of us that prefer the challange and the excitement of failing and we are the ones that choose games such as eve online swg darkfall mortal online and so on. we are the minority so developers cant find a valid reason to build us a game we want. and you can have a sandbox themepark without ruining the sandbox side of it. so they just make theme parks instead. take eso!!!! its a themepark! they just made charecter selection a little more complex and gave you skills to train and levels too. makes it a bit more envolving. but when it boils down to it.. you are still just grinding levels on your toon.
Every MMO IS the same. What you need to decide is which game you want to be bored at max level in.