Originally posted by Ppiper I'm mixed. EQ2 did this with an instant level 85, played it for a few hours and stopped thinking why am I doing this? I have no idea how to play this char. Albeit, with WoW, I've played most of the content to 90, I still have the most fun questing, even if I've done it many times. I'll give it a shot with a class I haven't tried yet but don't expect to keep at it. We'll see.
Now, I don't agree with the idea that purchasing insta-characters in a cash shop is appropriate and I was fine with the one time 90 boost for the xpac.
But the above reasoning bothers me every time I hear it. How is it possible to spend "a few hours" with a new character and not know how to play it?
Put me in any MMO with any max level character and I will know how to play it within 15-30 minutes easily. (EVE being the sole exception because you don't learn a class in EVE, you learn the game)
GW2 gives you max level pvp characters on demand. It's funny that GW2 players aren't crying to ANET because they aren't able to learn to play with them.
I will admit that some players (a lot actually) are so bad that they essentially never learn how to play any class, but that wouldn't change with 100 years of leveling, they're just bad.
Problem is your comparing a game that has far fewer active abilities. In EQ2 my main character had 7 Hotbars full of abilities, in GW2 my main had 1, even when I went into a lvl 80 area it was the exact same abilities that I had in the lvl 1 to 5 areas.
I'm sure there are some that are able to jump into a different class at max lvl and understand all of the various combinations required to get the most out of your character, all of the various points that have to be dispersed to ensure you are fighting at your very best.
Sheldon Cooper and I are disappointed in any gamer who can't read their abilities and put 2 and 2 together.
You are over-generalizing. EQ2 is a much more complex game, so having an insta-85 to learn requires some time. For instance, playing an endgame Healer (note that there are 3 distinctive Healer types and styles as well in EQ2) requires a healthy time investment to not only get up to speed, but to play it well. Same with the other EQ2 classes if you are going to play a role in a group. Pressing a button and *POOF!* having an 85 and expecting to learn the ins and outs in 15 minutes is utterly absurd. However, judging by this last comment of yours, it's obvious your argument is without merit and you are just stirring the pot.
Heh, that right there is how you see Blizzard is actually starting to be desperate for players. Paying for a level 90 character? Titan is suppose to be revealed somewhere in 2016-17, and I doubt WoW will sustain a healthy number of player base by then. The only thing able to kill WoW is time itself, and it is slowly dying.
Great idea! If people get sick of your kindergarden content, dont improve it but let them pay to skip it altogether.
Why would someone pay to play the game and at the same time pay to skip playing it?
I guess at the end of the day, people who support this move will just get the game they deserve- as well as Blizzard just gets the playerbase they deserve.
And i was just thinking that Idiotcrawler leaving would bring the game back on a better track...
I'd definitely pay to boost my characters to 90, after I've done the leveling content a dozen times now.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the leveling experience - the first few times. Now it feels a little like a chore.
I'd happily pay £20 for a level 90 character.
Don't judge what I, or others, want to spend our money on. Judge yourselves.
For additional 20 $ you can buy Achievements
for additional 20 $ you can buy top HEROIC RAID GEAR
for additional 20 $ Blizzards staff will play instead of you ( because you're a very very busy person )
for additional 20 $ you can acquire head shot skill that can kill tank BLOOD DK in 1 hit ( only today for 20 bucks you have chance to become top PVP player don't miss your opportunity )
Isn't this the 'slippery slope' fallacy? I didn't see anything in there about buying heroic raid gear, blizzard staff playing for you, or insta kill skills.
I'm not trying to be a dick, but this sort of jump to the extremes when games offer something like this is the exact same thing that politicians always do.
Were it not entirely possible, I would argue about the logical fallacy. Yet, we're seeing the phenomenon of boosts, instant characters, and whatever else have you increasing. They're having you pay for prestige and negating the game for you. We're in fact beginning to see the slope tilt this way. While his example is extreme and rhetorical, it's not that far off.
Originally posted by Ppiper I'm mixed. EQ2 did this with an instant level 85, played it for a few hours and stopped thinking why am I doing this? I have no idea how to play this char. Albeit, with WoW, I've played most of the content to 90, I still have the most fun questing, even if I've done it many times. I'll give it a shot with a class I haven't tried yet but don't expect to keep at it. We'll see.
Now, I don't agree with the idea that purchasing insta-characters in a cash shop is appropriate and I was fine with the one time 90 boost for the xpac.
But the above reasoning bothers me every time I hear it. How is it possible to spend "a few hours" with a new character and not know how to play it?
Put me in any MMO with any max level character and I will know how to play it within 15-30 minutes easily. (EVE being the sole exception because you don't learn a class in EVE, you learn the game)
GW2 gives you max level pvp characters on demand. It's funny that GW2 players aren't crying to ANET because they aren't able to learn to play with them.
I will admit that some players (a lot actually) are so bad that they essentially never learn how to play any class, but that wouldn't change with 100 years of leveling, they're just bad.
Problem is your comparing a game that has far fewer active abilities. In EQ2 my main character had 7 Hotbars full of abilities, in GW2 my main had 1, even when I went into a lvl 80 area it was the exact same abilities that I had in the lvl 1 to 5 areas.
I'm sure there are some that are able to jump into a different class at max lvl and understand all of the various combinations required to get the most out of your character, all of the various points that have to be dispersed to ensure you are fighting at your very best.
Sheldon Cooper and I are disappointed in any gamer who can't read their abilities and put 2 and 2 together.
You are over-generalizing. EQ2 is a much more complex game, so having an insta-85 to learn requires some time. For instance, playing an endgame Healer (note that there are 3 distinctive Healer types and styles as well in EQ2) requires a healthy time investment to not only get up to speed, but to play it well. Same with the other EQ2 classes if you are going to play a role in a group. Pressing a button and *POOF!* having an 85 and expecting to learn the ins and outs in 15 minutes is utterly absurd. However, judging by this last comment of yours, it's obvious your argument is without merit and you are just stirring the pot.
I insta'd a coercer and man that took me a bit to figure out wtf was going on. With EQ2 classes are a bit to the extreme tho due to AA. Realizing that a decent portion of my damage as a Coercer comes from auto attacks, which are actually ranged melee attacks, yea that took me a bit of time to catch on.
That being said, WoW isnt EQ2. I am sure most people can be up and running in 10 mins in WoW. After a bit of light reading I am sure moderate instancing is easy to accomplish.
I constantly see people preaching about how much content WoW has, yet it seems people simply want to skip all of it.
2. Cataclysm
I thought I remember people already paying for an expansion that was supposed to make early content more enjoyable. It seems this failed and maybe Blizzard needs to re-design and balance the early content to be as enjoyable as the rest. Its not as if people didnt give them a chunk of change to do this.
1) You have to remember who this is aimed towards, former players who may have quit 1 or 2 or 3 expansions ago. The population has since moved on, and having the returning players running around solo through the last 3 years of content isnt the best way to keep them interested. They want to be where everyone else is, not play a single player game for a month so that they could catch up.
Maybe what blizzard could do is, once an expansion is released, make playing up to the previous level cap require no sub, but once you want to start accessing the most current expansion, the sub requirement kicks in.
2) cata 1-60 content was more fun yes, but then you had to go through outlands and northrend, which wasnt as fun. I cant imagine doing that again without heirlooms.
Great idea! If people get sick of your kindergarden content, dont improve it but let them pay to skip it altogether.
Why would someone pay to play the game and at the same time pay to skip playing it?
I guess at the end of the day, people who support this move will just get the game they deserve- as well as Blizzard just gets the playerbase they deserve.
And i was just thinking that Idiotcrawler leaving would bring the game back on a better track...
Actually, truth be told, Ghostcrawler was pretty adamant against cash shop and additional money-making activities.
To see him go means the average joe will be monetized that much more.
You are over-generalizing. EQ2 is a much more complex game, so having an insta-85 to learn requires some time. For instance, playing an endgame Healer (note that there are 3 distinctive Healer types and styles as well in EQ2) requires a healthy time investment to not only get up to speed, but to play it well. Same with the other EQ2 classes if you are going to play a role in a group. Pressing a button and *POOF!* having an 85 and expecting to learn the ins and outs in 15 minutes is utterly absurd. However, judging by this last comment of yours, it's obvious your argument is without merit and you are just stirring the pot.
Not really. It takes about 5 minutes to look at all the abilities and macro them in EQ2. That big pile of abilities is mostly clutter, its just most newbie gamers don't know that.
The only two things that have a sharp learning curve for healers in EQ2 are pre-cures and curse cure rotations.
I have raid healed as both a mystic and fury on EQ2, and both were powerleveled without me controlling the character (just afk following). Both times I was raid healing within a day on that character (to fill a missing raid spot). Nothing in the levelling process of EQ2 would prepare you for end-game. You wont be needing super quick cures as you level, or coordinating curse cures with other healers. Those can only be learnt at end game, so who cares if you skip the solo levelling crap?
Hmmm. Since it sounds like it's going to come with the expansion, I'd say "Free" is what a level 90 character is worth to me. I would like the option of skipping content that I'm tried of running through multiple times, but at the same time it's not really worth it to me to pay extra for it. Not much anyway. $5 per character maybe, if that.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Paying (too much) for a lv90 char isn't worth it for me, anymore. It might have been in the past. If it is less than character transfer though, one could consider it if you wanted to remain on a server and restart quickly on another. But still, in the end, a lot of cash for "nothing"?
The main point though is, Blizzard is asking the players, so they intend on listening at least. Can't say much about that.
You are over-generalizing. EQ2 is a much more complex game, so having an insta-85 to learn requires some time. For instance, playing an endgame Healer (note that there are 3 distinctive Healer types and styles as well in EQ2) requires a healthy time investment to not only get up to speed, but to play it well. Same with the other EQ2 classes if you are going to play a role in a group. Pressing a button and *POOF!* having an 85 and expecting to learn the ins and outs in 15 minutes is utterly absurd. However, judging by this last comment of yours, it's obvious your argument is without merit and you are just stirring the pot.
Not really. It takes about 5 minutes to look at all the abilities and macro them in EQ2. That big pile of abilities is mostly clutter, its just most newbie gamers don't know that.
The only two things that have a sharp learning curve for healers in EQ2 are pre-cures and curse cure rotations.
I have raid healed as both a mystic and fury on EQ2, and both were powerleveled without me controlling the character (just afk following). Both times I was raid healing within a day on that character (to fill a missing raid spot). Nothing in the levelling process of EQ2 would prepare you for end-game. You wont be needing super quick cures as you level, or coordinating curse cures with other healers. Those can only be learnt at end game, so who cares if you skip the solo levelling crap?
I suppose if you've been playing the game so long that you can afford to PL through all the content, jump into raids, and easily learn your skills and macro them in 5 minutes, then you are in the >5% of the population with enough gaming experience and resources to do what you described. However, judging by your use of "newb" and referring to the bulk of the game as "crap", then I assume there is a wee bit of hyperbole and elitism here, which puts you even further out on the limb of relevance.
For everyone else, no, it is not possible to insta-roll a high level toon and jump into end-game content and be successful in under 20 minutes. That's what the leveling process is for: gradual exposure to new skills and learning how to use them in progressively challenging content. Even if you skip the leveling experience, there are a lot of mechanics to work out before you become competent, let alone a valued team member.
It reminds me a bit of the 80 upgrade that came with SoR. I'd value it at around $50 USD.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
I would rather have the survey, "What is a level 60 in WoW 1.12.1 worth to you". I would gladly pay for an account in a battlegroup of Vanilla servers to play in.
IMHO, instant anything is a shove over a cliff and this may be a final end. Loved the game for years but..... nuff is a'nuff.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
I'd definitely pay to boost my characters to 90, after I've done the leveling content a dozen times now.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the leveling experience - the first few times. Now it feels a little like a chore.
I'd happily pay £20 for a level 90 character.
Don't judge what I, or others, want to spend our money on. Judge yourselves.
For additional 20 $ you can buy Achievements
for additional 20 $ you can buy top HEROIC RAID GEAR
for additional 20 $ Blizzards staff will play instead of you ( because you're a very very busy person )
for additional 20 $ you can acquire head shot skill that can kill tank BLOOD DK in 1 hit ( only today for 20 bucks you have chance to become top PVP player don't miss your opportunity )
Isn't this the 'slippery slope' fallacy? I didn't see anything in there about buying heroic raid gear, blizzard staff playing for you, or insta kill skills.
I'm not trying to be a dick, but this sort of jump to the extremes when games offer something like this is the exact same thing that politicians always do.
Indeed it is. Though unfortunately when it comes to "Cash Shops" or corperations in general,it does tend to go that way. While it might not go to those levels, its known to happen a lot in F2P games as the cash shop will have more and more greedy things implimented as they feel more comfortable with getting away with stuff to make money. The biggest thing here is to keep in mind that such practices can be countered simply by refusing to pay for such services and to voice being upset about it. While it might not always react their choices, it can often stop them from going even further and might even cause a pull back of those policies.
The slipper Slope Falicy when it comes to greed is unfortunately one that CAN reign true, but is also something that can be stopped with enough vocal protest against and people not paying for it. Something that seriously needs to happen with Mobile games since people spending so much cash there is really hurting everyone in general as more companies try to push things further and further.
They should follow that e-mail up with a "How much would you pay to have other people at low levels to group with?"
Since most long term players have a bunch of 90s and now other people will pop in and buy 90s. Granted I wouldn't buy a 90 or play WoW again, but I can see this hurting legitimate players even more due to have fewer people to play/level with.
Originally posted by centkin If you are paying to not play the game there is something wrong.
It depends what you believe the game is. Is it the 1-90 content or end game content? For a lot of people they have no interest in what they consider is nothing more than the lead up to the real game.
They should charge $0.50 per lvl. So if u have a lvl 70, it'll cost u $10. If u bump up a lvl 10, that's $40. A lvl 1 will cost u $44.50.
Given the price of their other character services, I think it's a fair enough price point, give or take a dime or two. There will be more incentive to actually lvl your charcter if u want to learn it, but ppl who got dough to blow can just pay for the character to be 90 at whatever point they want.
I think 10-15 is good ... but I also think it should be limited .. a new payer to get that fast to 90.. not so sure about that ... would make content below 90 worthless ... i think you should get the option IF you have one or more 90's already.
Comments
You are over-generalizing. EQ2 is a much more complex game, so having an insta-85 to learn requires some time. For instance, playing an endgame Healer (note that there are 3 distinctive Healer types and styles as well in EQ2) requires a healthy time investment to not only get up to speed, but to play it well. Same with the other EQ2 classes if you are going to play a role in a group. Pressing a button and *POOF!* having an 85 and expecting to learn the ins and outs in 15 minutes is utterly absurd. However, judging by this last comment of yours, it's obvious your argument is without merit and you are just stirring the pot.
Great idea! If people get sick of your kindergarden content, dont improve it but let them pay to skip it altogether.
Why would someone pay to play the game and at the same time pay to skip playing it?
I guess at the end of the day, people who support this move will just get the game they deserve- as well as Blizzard just gets the playerbase they deserve.
And i was just thinking that Idiotcrawler leaving would bring the game back on a better track...
Were it not entirely possible, I would argue about the logical fallacy. Yet, we're seeing the phenomenon of boosts, instant characters, and whatever else have you increasing. They're having you pay for prestige and negating the game for you. We're in fact beginning to see the slope tilt this way. While his example is extreme and rhetorical, it's not that far off.
I insta'd a coercer and man that took me a bit to figure out wtf was going on. With EQ2 classes are a bit to the extreme tho due to AA. Realizing that a decent portion of my damage as a Coercer comes from auto attacks, which are actually ranged melee attacks, yea that took me a bit of time to catch on.
That being said, WoW isnt EQ2. I am sure most people can be up and running in 10 mins in WoW. After a bit of light reading I am sure moderate instancing is easy to accomplish.
1) You have to remember who this is aimed towards, former players who may have quit 1 or 2 or 3 expansions ago. The population has since moved on, and having the returning players running around solo through the last 3 years of content isnt the best way to keep them interested. They want to be where everyone else is, not play a single player game for a month so that they could catch up.
Maybe what blizzard could do is, once an expansion is released, make playing up to the previous level cap require no sub, but once you want to start accessing the most current expansion, the sub requirement kicks in.
2) cata 1-60 content was more fun yes, but then you had to go through outlands and northrend, which wasnt as fun. I cant imagine doing that again without heirlooms.
Zero, that is all.
Actually, truth be told, Ghostcrawler was pretty adamant against cash shop and additional money-making activities.
To see him go means the average joe will be monetized that much more.
Discuss. Reason. Society.
Become a Dragon. Take your world back.
Not really. It takes about 5 minutes to look at all the abilities and macro them in EQ2. That big pile of abilities is mostly clutter, its just most newbie gamers don't know that.
The only two things that have a sharp learning curve for healers in EQ2 are pre-cures and curse cure rotations.
I have raid healed as both a mystic and fury on EQ2, and both were powerleveled without me controlling the character (just afk following). Both times I was raid healing within a day on that character (to fill a missing raid spot). Nothing in the levelling process of EQ2 would prepare you for end-game. You wont be needing super quick cures as you level, or coordinating curse cures with other healers. Those can only be learnt at end game, so who cares if you skip the solo levelling crap?
Hmmm. Since it sounds like it's going to come with the expansion, I'd say "Free" is what a level 90 character is worth to me. I would like the option of skipping content that I'm tried of running through multiple times, but at the same time it's not really worth it to me to pay extra for it. Not much anyway. $5 per character maybe, if that.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
My guess is an instant level 90 character is going to come in at about $50.00 US.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Paying (too much) for a lv90 char isn't worth it for me, anymore. It might have been in the past. If it is less than character transfer though, one could consider it if you wanted to remain on a server and restart quickly on another. But still, in the end, a lot of cash for "nothing"?
The main point though is, Blizzard is asking the players, so they intend on listening at least. Can't say much about that.
--------------------------------------------
Youtube newb:
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I suppose if you've been playing the game so long that you can afford to PL through all the content, jump into raids, and easily learn your skills and macro them in 5 minutes, then you are in the >5% of the population with enough gaming experience and resources to do what you described. However, judging by your use of "newb" and referring to the bulk of the game as "crap", then I assume there is a wee bit of hyperbole and elitism here, which puts you even further out on the limb of relevance.
For everyone else, no, it is not possible to insta-roll a high level toon and jump into end-game content and be successful in under 20 minutes. That's what the leveling process is for: gradual exposure to new skills and learning how to use them in progressively challenging content. Even if you skip the leveling experience, there are a lot of mechanics to work out before you become competent, let alone a valued team member.
I'm thinking this as well. I believe they currently charge $30 for a faction change? I would be surprised if its any less.
It reminds me a bit of the 80 upgrade that came with SoR. I'd value it at around $50 USD.
I would rather have the survey, "What is a level 60 in WoW 1.12.1 worth to you". I would gladly pay for an account in a battlegroup of Vanilla servers to play in.
IMHO, instant anything is a shove over a cliff and this may be a final end. Loved the game for years but..... nuff is a'nuff.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Indeed it is. Though unfortunately when it comes to "Cash Shops" or corperations in general,it does tend to go that way. While it might not go to those levels, its known to happen a lot in F2P games as the cash shop will have more and more greedy things implimented as they feel more comfortable with getting away with stuff to make money. The biggest thing here is to keep in mind that such practices can be countered simply by refusing to pay for such services and to voice being upset about it. While it might not always react their choices, it can often stop them from going even further and might even cause a pull back of those policies.
The slipper Slope Falicy when it comes to greed is unfortunately one that CAN reign true, but is also something that can be stopped with enough vocal protest against and people not paying for it. Something that seriously needs to happen with Mobile games since people spending so much cash there is really hurting everyone in general as more companies try to push things further and further.
They should follow that e-mail up with a "How much would you pay to have other people at low levels to group with?"
Since most long term players have a bunch of 90s and now other people will pop in and buy 90s. Granted I wouldn't buy a 90 or play WoW again, but I can see this hurting legitimate players even more due to have fewer people to play/level with.
It depends what you believe the game is. Is it the 1-90 content or end game content? For a lot of people they have no interest in what they consider is nothing more than the lead up to the real game.
They should charge $0.50 per lvl. So if u have a lvl 70, it'll cost u $10. If u bump up a lvl 10, that's $40. A lvl 1 will cost u $44.50.
Given the price of their other character services, I think it's a fair enough price point, give or take a dime or two. There will be more incentive to actually lvl your charcter if u want to learn it, but ppl who got dough to blow can just pay for the character to be 90 at whatever point they want.