Originally posted by Volkon Originally posted by GeezerGamerI just logged back into GW2 after about 6 mo away. I was curious, I wanted to see how the game was doing and for the most part, it's pretty much the same as it was. However, There has been some change.As far as the OP's question goes, I have to say that depends on each person's definition of "WIN" so the answer to this thread is highly subjective. The reason I say this is because while we can argue that you can or cannot buy "WIN" in GW2, the answer to another common question: "Can you buy power?" as a "yes" or "no" question has absolutely changed. It used to be "No" but not anymore. The answer is now "Yes". This may not automatically translate to P2W simply because the amount of power for the amount of money is ridiculous. It costs a ridiculously high amount of money, for a ridiculously low amount of power, but never the less, it is now in the game. This is new. You may legitimately waive this off as insignificant in terms of weather or not it will make or break a PVP encounter, or change the tide of events in a PVE encounter. But that isn't my issue with this. My issue is the fact that this change occurred at all. When you see a toe wedged in the door, you can not dismiss the possibility that what is a toe now, will be a parade marching through sooner or later.
Hey, welcome back Geez! Wintersday is a great time to come back for a visit.
I'm not sure what power you're referring to being able to buy... if it's the ability to buy a Legendary weapon off the Trading Post then I have issues with that for one main reason... you're not buying power supplied by ANet for cash. You're buying a weapon crafted (with considerable effort) by another player in the game. With the current prices of some legendary weapons some people may indeed choose to get the gold needed to buy it by exchanging purchased gems for gold rather than earn the gold in game, this is true, but the fact is this is simply a transfer of power (small though it may be) from one player to another, not items supplied by ANet and ANet alone. They certainly don't give a notable advantage, and in WvW may be a disadvantage as they could make many people a target...
So the question is this - how is pay to win being defined these days? Is it still the traditional definition where you pay cash to obtain items with power unavailable from within the game alone that give you a notable increase in "win"? Or is the definition so watered down these days that it now covers getting in game currency a bit more quickly to buy something you could have bought over time anyhow? Because if you use the latter definition then I doubt there's a game left in existence that wouldn't meet it.
If you read the OP and some of the OP's follow up posts, you'll see that this thread is an attempt to redefine and solidify the definition to the one that applies to nearly every game. One of the posts I think even says that it's an attempt to define P2W as being able to buy anything that gives an advantage, even if the advantage is temporary.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by GeezerGamerWhile I acknowledge your point, The fact is. I can pull out my plastic and buy my way to the top. This has always been the case with GW2, but when the game was new, the top was exotics and it was such a low ceiling to reach, there was no real advantage in buying them or grinding them out. Then we moved into Ascended gear. I never had a problem with this because the increase in the power grade to ascended had to be played through. You had to do fractals or daily or laurels or something other than the TP. And this is still 99.9% the case, but now, there is that slight reality. Yes I am nitpicking. I get that. And if this is all we ever see, I'm fine with it TBH. But that brings us to the poster above you.The answer to his question is Anarchy Online. Back in Nov. 2010. They announced they would be introducing an Item Store. At the time the game director "Means" was quoted as saying the focus of the shop would be cosmetic and that you would not be able to buy power. Today the cash shop is full on P2W and when I last spoke to one of my former Orgmates, he was talking about buffs and other proposed P2W items they were looking at. But even if they never did that, the game is still P2W based on what you can get with real money. Also, in that game (I admit this is not so much the case for GW2) Time reduction is absolutely an advantage towards the P2W factor.
Now see... you're stretching the definition of pay to win far, far too thin here and you're also projecting what you may have seen in other games to here. But the fact remains... even if you could buy ascended gear (which you can't, it's account bound) you still wouldn't be buying "win". You can't take it into sPvP with you; they switch you to PvP gear. In WvW the increase is so marginal that you'll still be downed by a player with comparable skill if you screw up (or meet the zerg...). PvE is, as has been stated many times, completely doable in yellows and tuned to exotics, so the "slightly easier" there isn't "win" either. The fact remains this: You cannot buy an advantage over other players in GW2 in any way, shape or form.This tendency to use the wrong definition to attempt to make a point is far too prevalent these days. It's the same thing as when people call evolution "Only a theory" when trying to bash it. They use the laymans definition which is akin to a guess, where a scientific theory is really about as good as it gets.
Let me be clear. I am not saying GW2 is P2W. If I did, then It was a mistake and I'll retract that. I don't believe that it currently is or ever was. So, I don't think I have stretched anything thin. I am not calling GW2 P2W. I merely pointed out the direction it turned could head that way in the future. Maybe I just see things differently and call it "writing on the wall". Maybe it's there, maybe it's not, but I will remain skeptical (as always)
Hey, I had no problem admitting I was wrong about GW2 being P2W prior to its release where I was also skeptical and was proven a false alrm, so yeah, same goes for now too.
All I am saying is, it deserves watching.
And yeah, I want to see the Winter event in the game.
BTW, I would also say that WoW is in a similar position. With R-A-F instant leveling and the fact that I've seen people openly selling Spectral Tiger Mounts or Game Time Key Codes for gold. Apearantly, these do not violate the EULA. (I haven't bothered to confirm that though) If that is so, then It's possible for me to get gold (or other items) from real money via legitimate means. So, yeah.
Pahanda This question has been answered many times.
If the code is entered or redeemed on a webpage, it is an out-of-game item. Out-of-game items may not be exchanged for in-game currency (gold) or services. This applies to game time codes, pet store codes, and the TCG codes printed on the physical cards (among other things).
Thank you for answering that.
So it is in fact against the ELUA. But yet, players are openly trading in chat channels and Blizz does nothing about it. Well, why would they I guess? After all, it means someone bought an extra month of game time. Blizz wins all the way around by ignoring it.
Originally posted by GeezerGamerI just logged back into GW2 after about 6 mo away. I was curious, I wanted to see how the game was doing and for the most part, it's pretty much the same as it was. However, There has been some change.As far as the OP's question goes, I have to say that depends on each person's definition of "WIN" so the answer to this thread is highly subjective. The reason I say this is because while we can argue that you can or cannot buy "WIN" in GW2, the answer to another common question: "Can you buy power?" as a "yes" or "no" question has absolutely changed. It used to be "No" but not anymore. The answer is now "Yes". This may not automatically translate to P2W simply because the amount of power for the amount of money is ridiculous. It costs a ridiculously high amount of money, for a ridiculously low amount of power, but never the less, it is now in the game. This is new. You may legitimately waive this off as insignificant in terms of weather or not it will make or break a PVP encounter, or change the tide of events in a PVE encounter. But that isn't my issue with this. My issue is the fact that this change occurred at all. When you see a toe wedged in the door, you can not dismiss the possibility that what is a toe now, will be a parade marching through sooner or later.
Hey, welcome back Geez! Wintersday is a great time to come back for a visit.
I'm not sure what power you're referring to being able to buy... if it's the ability to buy a Legendary weapon off the Trading Post then I have issues with that for one main reason... you're not buying power supplied by ANet for cash. You're buying a weapon crafted (with considerable effort) by another player in the game. With the current prices of some legendary weapons some people may indeed choose to get the gold needed to buy it by exchanging purchased gems for gold rather than earn the gold in game, this is true, but the fact is this is simply a transfer of power (small though it may be) from one player to another, not items supplied by ANet and ANet alone. They certainly don't give a notable advantage, and in WvW may be a disadvantage as they could make many people a target...
So the question is this - how is pay to win being defined these days? Is it still the traditional definition where you pay cash to obtain items with power unavailable from within the game alone that give you a notable increase in "win"? Or is the definition so watered down these days that it now covers getting in game currency a bit more quickly to buy something you could have bought over time anyhow? Because if you use the latter definition then I doubt there's a game left in existence that wouldn't meet it.
If you read the OP and some of the OP's follow up posts, you'll see that this thread is an attempt to redefine and solidify the definition to the one that applies to nearly every game. One of the posts I think even says that it's an attempt to define P2W as being able to buy anything that gives an advantage, even if the advantage is temporary.
Here's the way I see it.
Looking back at GW2 at launch, you could buy a new account. Buy Gems, Trade for gold, use the gold to level all crafts. Basically, you can buy a level 80 toon. From there, you could outfit that character fully with exotics.
Why did I not consider that Pay to Win? Because you were trading time for money but at the end, it equalized. That's the key (for me). Exotics were supposed to be the end of it all. Once there, you'd go no further. No matter how much you spent. And likewise no matter how much time you put in.
But lets look at a game where equalization is not so easy. Games where new gear, buffs, powers what have you, are being added in at regular intervals, that screws up the equalization. If the player who spends time is always chasing the carrot, while the player who spends money is able to reach the carrot, then the advantage is constant and the game becomes pay to win.
The gray areas now, are the rate at whcih the increases are released. Obviously the slower and less significant increases have less impact on the equalization, then there is less P2W factor.
If you read the OP and some of the OP's follow up posts, you'll see that this thread is an attempt to redefine and solidify the definition to the one that applies to nearly every game. One of the posts I think even says that it's an attempt to define P2W as being able to buy anything that gives an advantage, even if the advantage is temporary.
There isn't any redefining going on.
There was always an equal playing field in most AAA MMO titles.
The only advantage someone had was how much time they spent playing.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by GeezerGamerOriginally posted by VolkonOriginally posted by GeezerGamerWhile I acknowledge your point, The fact is. I can pull out my plastic and buy my way to the top. This has always been the case with GW2, but when the game was new, the top was exotics and it was such a low ceiling to reach, there was no real advantage in buying them or grinding them out. Then we moved into Ascended gear. I never had a problem with this because the increase in the power grade to ascended had to be played through. You had to do fractals or daily or laurels or something other than the TP. And this is still 99.9% the case, but now, there is that slight reality. Yes I am nitpicking. I get that. And if this is all we ever see, I'm fine with it TBH. But that brings us to the poster above you.The answer to his question is Anarchy Online. Back in Nov. 2010. They announced they would be introducing an Item Store. At the time the game director "Means" was quoted as saying the focus of the shop would be cosmetic and that you would not be able to buy power. Today the cash shop is full on P2W and when I last spoke to one of my former Orgmates, he was talking about buffs and other proposed P2W items they were looking at. But even if they never did that, the game is still P2W based on what you can get with real money. Also, in that game (I admit this is not so much the case for GW2) Time reduction is absolutely an advantage towards the P2W factor.Now see... you're stretching the definition of pay to win far, far too thin here and you're also projecting what you may have seen in other games to here. But the fact remains... even if you could buy ascended gear (which you can't, it's account bound) you still wouldn't be buying "win". You can't take it into sPvP with you; they switch you to PvP gear. In WvW the increase is so marginal that you'll still be downed by a player with comparable skill if you screw up (or meet the zerg...). PvE is, as has been stated many times, completely doable in yellows and tuned to exotics, so the "slightly easier" there isn't "win" either. The fact remains this: You cannot buy an advantage over other players in GW2 in any way, shape or form.This tendency to use the wrong definition to attempt to make a point is far too prevalent these days. It's the same thing as when people call evolution "Only a theory" when trying to bash it. They use the laymans definition which is akin to a guess, where a scientific theory is really about as good as it gets.
Let me be clear. I am not saying GW2 is P2W. If I did, then It was a mistake and I'll retract that. I don't believe that it currently is or ever was. So, I don't think I have stretched anything thin. I am not calling GW2 P2W. I merely pointed out the direction it turned could head that way in the future. Maybe I just see things differently and call it "writing on the wall". Maybe it's there, maybe it's not, but I will remain skeptical (as always)Hey, I had no problem admitting I was wrong about GW2 being P2W prior to its release where I was also skeptical and was proven a false alrm, so yeah, same goes for now too.All I am saying is, it deserves watching.And yeah, I want to see the Winter event in the game.BTW, I would also say that WoW is in a similar position. With R-A-F instant leveling and the fact that I've seen people openly selling Spectral Tiger Mounts or Game Time Key Codes for gold. Apearantly, these do not violate the EULA. (I haven't bothered to confirm that though) If that is so, then It's possible for me to get gold (or other items) from real money via legitimate means. So, yeah.From Blizzard Support Thread:Pahanda This question has been answered many times. If the code is entered or redeemed on a webpage, it is an out-of-game item. Out-of-game items may not be exchanged for in-game currency (gold) or services. This applies to game time codes, pet store codes, and the TCG codes printed on the physical cards (among other things). Thank you for answering that.
So it is in fact against the ELUA. But yet, players are openly trading in chat channels and Blizz does nothing about it. Well, why would they I guess? After all, it means someone bought an extra month of game time. Blizz wins all the way around by ignoring it.
This is kind of off topic, but Blizzard is very slow to enforce rules against individuals. What they do is wait and periodically ban or systemically remove large quantities of people who are breaking the rules. They won't ban one botter when you find them, they'll wait and ban hundreds or thousands of people using that bot software. I would expect it's the same for people doing things like trading game time and such in the game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I've asked a few times for people who have run with a definition for P2W to present that definition. Where did they find it? I asked this because I know they just made it up.
In the F2P Wiki page is a reference to "Pay To Win". Essentially it applies in F2P games where "Winning" is dependent upon paying money. LotRO would be P2W because there is content that is inaccessible to the Free player*. SWToR is really close to P2W because their end game content is heavily restricted to free players. It's not completely restricted, but it's close.
The other P2W definition revolves around PvP. As in there's no way to beat another player without spending money in the cash shop.
There is a requirement that players must pay money to even have a chance to "Win" and any player who does not pay money cannot "Win"; they "Lose". Any game that doesn't do this, where players can "Win" without paying money is not a P2W game.
That doesn't mean that GW2 has a good system. I have no idea of the relative merits of their system. It could be horrible or it could be benign. Trying to apply "P2W" to GW2 is an attempt to paint GW2 in a bad light by attaching a bad word to the game and doesn't address any issues with the game at all. It's a side show, nothing more.
* I think. I'm really not that familiar with LotRO.
**
Grammar, always with the grammar.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
From day 1 GW2 has sold buffs in their cash shop. That meets the very definition of pay2win. They don't care about the game, the values the marketers put forward, you, they only care about money, it's a business. Anyone trying to defend them is delusional. Another part of their business model is to create a problem, then sell the solution. Want stacks of 1000 instead of 250, pay us 30$. Want to have to quit going to a vendor for mining picks, pay us 12.50$ - oh and an axe and a sickle will set you back another 25$. Those are NOT cosmetic items. Salvaging is now an important part of the game in order to increase you chance at having rare drops (it barely works but eventually you do notice a slight difference) so thats 10$ if you dont want to run to a vendor all the time. Not that its that bad, but if you want to enjoy WvW, having to go back to a vendor non-stop gets annoying fast for your team. You could also pass up loot, but doesn't that advantage those who have a copper fed salvage-o-matic?
Sure they dont sell items that are "more powerful" because they have chosen to create a gear grind instead. That means eventual sales would be less powerful and it also makes people quit faster so again, you don't have gear in there because it makes business sense.
TLDR: GW2 has always been P2W, its only getting worse over time.
You get them for FREE if you play the game (Complete dailies, monthly, complete maps), i myself have my bank full of them because you dont need them.
You get top end gear for FREE if you play* the game. In some games people can buy that top game gear. It is pay to win. ANYTHING that gives you an advantage in game that you paid money for, is pay to win. Even the most "innocent" boost is pay2win.
GW2 fanbois are the worst, because they refuse to admit things that are so plainly obvious, it's almost like you couldn't get them to admit gw2 is p2w unless you could buy the sword of 1000 truths in the shop, and even then they might not admit it.
But put the same things into WoW, and they will scream about how awful it is.
The term P2W i as raised with is when your get and advantage, superior position, that is not normaly available in game, your NEED to pay to advance in-game(Thus is the fate in many F2P games).
In GW2 you get exotics by playing the game
Also can get exotics by Trading -> gem -> gold.
IN this scenario your paying to be EQUAL, not superior, EQUAL.
So how do you WIN by being equal?
Now, we have ascended gear, top gear, dat can only be aquired by playing the game, crafting, crafting mats that can only be get by doing dungeons/WvWvW/Events.
HOW DO YOU WIN HERE?
now: GW2 (11 80s). Dark Souls 2. future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord. "Bro, do your even fractal?" Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
From day 1 GW2 has sold buffs in their cash shop. That meets the very definition of pay2win. They don't care about the game, the values the marketers put forward, you, they only care about money, it's a business. Anyone trying to defend them is delusional. Another part of their business model is to create a problem, then sell the solution. Want stacks of 1000 instead of 250, pay us 30$. Want to have to quit going to a vendor for mining picks, pay us 12.50$ - oh and an axe and a sickle will set you back another 25$. Those are NOT cosmetic items. Salvaging is now an important part of the game in order to increase you chance at having rare drops (it barely works but eventually you do notice a slight difference) so thats 10$ if you dont want to run to a vendor all the time. Not that its that bad, but if you want to enjoy WvW, having to go back to a vendor non-stop gets annoying fast for your team. You could also pass up loot, but doesn't that advantage those who have a copper fed salvage-o-matic?
Sure they dont sell items that are "more powerful" because they have chosen to create a gear grind instead. That means eventual sales would be less powerful and it also makes people quit faster so again, you don't have gear in there because it makes business sense.
TLDR: GW2 has always been P2W, its only getting worse over time.
You get them for FREE if you play the game (Complete dailies, monthly, complete maps), i myself have my bank full of them because you dont need them.
You get top end gear for FREE if you play* the game. In some games people can buy that top game gear. It is pay to win. ANYTHING that gives you an advantage in game that you paid money for, is pay to win. Even the most "innocent" boost is pay2win.
GW2 fanbois are the worst, because they refuse to admit things that are so plainly obvious, it's almost like you couldn't get them to admit gw2 is p2w unless you could buy the sword of 1000 truths in the shop, and even then they might not admit it.
But put the same things into WoW, and they will scream about how awful it is.
The term P2W i as raised with is when your get and advantage, superior position, that is not normaly available in game, your NEED to pay to advance in-game(Thus is the fate in many F2P games).
In GW2 you get exotics by playing the game
Also can get exotics by Trading -> gem -> gold.
IN this scenario your paying to be EQUAL, not superior, EQUAL.
So how do you WIN by being equal?
Now, we have ascended gear, top gear, dat can only be aquired by playing the game, crafting, crafting mats that can only be get by doing dungeons/WvWvW/Events.
HOW DO YOU WIN HERE?
The crux of the issue here seems that some people find the "advantage" of having to spend less time in the game P2W. While I agree to a certain degree that grinding for items can be bloody tedious work, I hardly think it's P2W. The only advantage you get, is that you reach the finish line a bit faster.
That said, I find it hilarious that some people in this thread come up with their own definition of P2W, apply it to "a lot of people agree that my definition is the definition" and call others out for not agreeing with them.
Items in GW2 are obtainable in a decent amount of time. Buying them speeds this up a bit and as others have pointed out, having them doesn't mean everything. An example of P2W can be found in those goddamn mobile phone CCG. If you don't pay, you simply can't compete. That's not the case in GW2.
From day 1 GW2 has sold buffs in their cash shop. That meets the very definition of pay2win. They don't care about the game, the values the marketers put forward, you, they only care about money, it's a business. Anyone trying to defend them is delusional. Another part of their business model is to create a problem, then sell the solution. Want stacks of 1000 instead of 250, pay us 30$. Want to have to quit going to a vendor for mining picks, pay us 12.50$ - oh and an axe and a sickle will set you back another 25$. Those are NOT cosmetic items. Salvaging is now an important part of the game in order to increase you chance at having rare drops (it barely works but eventually you do notice a slight difference) so thats 10$ if you dont want to run to a vendor all the time. Not that its that bad, but if you want to enjoy WvW, having to go back to a vendor non-stop gets annoying fast for your team. You could also pass up loot, but doesn't that advantage those who have a copper fed salvage-o-matic?
Sure they dont sell items that are "more powerful" because they have chosen to create a gear grind instead. That means eventual sales would be less powerful and it also makes people quit faster so again, you don't have gear in there because it makes business sense.
TLDR: GW2 has always been P2W, its only getting worse over time.
You get them for FREE if you play the game (Complete dailies, monthly, complete maps), i myself have my bank full of them because you dont need them.
You get top end gear for FREE if you play* the game. In some games people can buy that top game gear. It is pay to win. ANYTHING that gives you an advantage in game that you paid money for, is pay to win. Even the most "innocent" boost is pay2win.
GW2 fanbois are the worst, because they refuse to admit things that are so plainly obvious, it's almost like you couldn't get them to admit gw2 is p2w unless you could buy the sword of 1000 truths in the shop, and even then they might not admit it.
But put the same things into WoW, and they will scream about how awful it is.
The term P2W i as raised with is when your get and advantage, superior position, that is not normaly available in game, your NEED to pay to advance in-game(Thus is the fate in many F2P games).
In GW2 you get exotics by playing the game
Also can get exotics by Trading -> gem -> gold.
IN this scenario your paying to be EQUAL, not superior, EQUAL.
So how do you WIN by being equal?
Now, we have ascended gear, top gear, dat can only be aquired by playing the game, crafting, crafting mats that can only be get by doing dungeons/WvWvW/Events.
HOW DO YOU WIN HERE?
The problem with an absolute definition of "P2W" is that any kind of "advantage" in an MMO has to pertain to the individual's play style. We are getting back to the question of OK, you paid for something but is it "WIN"? What is P2W for one is meaningless to another. We all have our own idea of what "WIN" is in an MMO and it's different from player to player. At the same time, you cannot make someone change their ideal of winning to match a paper definition if that definition doesn't line up with that player's motivation for playing.
When we can come up with a universal definition of why we all play MMOs, then we can come up with a universal definition of what it means to win them.
Read trough a lot of post here , defining p2w in gw2 for ppl buying legendaryes/ascended or so on....
Did u ppl actually played the game ? seems not if u brag about that stuff
1st legendary takes 1 month to make ( if u don't buy it from AH by spending real money on diamonds then selling them or by buying it on ebay or wichever site sells it ilegally ... and it's still not p2w , i can waste a legendary weapons user using an exotic weapon any time )
2nd one takes around 1 week or less ... and i don't play hundreds of hours a week
Ascended weapons take about 9 days to make same goes with 1 piece of ascended armor ( there are no boosters that help u craft them faster , unless if u use drop rate boosters in fractals and pray for an good drop )
So were is the p2w in GW2 ? in those boosters ? or in the idea that ppl know the game and get items faster than u or look better than u ?
It is pay to proceed faster and be more powerful in WvW. Since gold is becoming the most important resource you can buy via gems, buying gems gets you faster to where you want. It is not pay to win, because in s/tpvp all gear is on the same level and in wvw it doesn't matter much. You might argue that 5% better stats is still better than exotics, hence p2w, but you can acquire the same stats via regular play.
Another question is more important: Do you have more money or more time to spend? Most people will say money.
Originally posted by zasten Seems strange that anybody would want to pay to get to the end.
That's because it's rare that is what the person is buying or looking to get from what they bought. That's simple a convenient talking point for spindoctoring F2P haters to snow their often very uninformed followers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It is pay to proceed faster and be more powerful in WvW. Since gold is becoming the most important resource you can buy via gems, buying gems gets you faster to where you want. It is not pay to win, because in s/tpvp all gear is on the same level and in wvw it doesn't matter much. You might argue that 5% better stats is still better than exotics, hence p2w, but you can acquire the same stats via regular play.
Another question is more important: Do you have more money or more time to spend? Most people will say money.
Ascended weapons are as powerful as Legendary weapons.
We are talking minimum of $375 to buy gems to convert to gold to get a legendary weapon.
And it isn't even 5% better stats since it is only a 5% improvement on 1 of 13/14 slots if you the other player isn't using ascended weapons.
Also, the legendary weapons aren't sold directly, they are sold by other players. The only reason I can see for a player to sell its legendary weapon is to buy a legendary weapon he wants instead of whatever precursor he/she got.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
It is pay to proceed faster and be more powerful in WvW. Since gold is becoming the most important resource you can buy via gems, buying gems gets you faster to where you want. It is not pay to win, because in s/tpvp all gear is on the same level and in wvw it doesn't matter much. You might argue that 5% better stats is still better than exotics, hence p2w, but you can acquire the same stats via regular play.
Another question is more important: Do you have more money or more time to spend? Most people will say money.
Ascended weapons are as powerful as Legendary weapons.
We are talking minimum of $375 to buy gems to convert to gold to get a legendary weapon.
And it isn't even 5% better stats since it is only a 5% improvement on 1 of 13/14 slots if you the other player isn't using ascended weapons.
Also, the legendary weapons aren't sold directly, they are sold by other players. The only reason I can see for a player to sell its legendary weapon is to buy a legendary weapon he wants instead of whatever precursor he/she got.
This doesn't invalidate my point. A bit more powerful is still more powerful. Investing a lot of money to get things faster is still paying to speed things up. You might argue that both points are connected.
I wonder how much you got to grind for a couple of toons once they raise the level cap and introduce more vertical progression. GW2 is a true cash shop game (meaning everything is designed with the cash shop in mind).
Edit: At one point ANet said that legendary weapons will always have the best stat combinations. Only the devil might think they'd introduce more gear tiers.
Yes there is a little gap of Pay to WIN still you will need quite a lot of money to get throw that gap
And is Pay To Win from TIME = Progression for exampel you can buy a Legendary easely or get full set with most expencive runes sigil but this is not directly Pay to Win
PAY TO WIN is when in cash shop you have items that boots you dmg like in Silkroad you could buy potion DMG scroll and a mage with all stuff from Cash shop could WIPE any anything instantly THAT WAS PAY TO WIN
This doesn't invalidate my point. A bit more powerful is still more powerful. Investing a lot of money to get things faster is still paying to speed things up. You might argue that both points are connected.
I wonder how much you got to grind for a couple of toons once they raise the level cap and introduce more vertical progression. GW2 is a true cash shop game (meaning everything is designed with the cash shop in mind).
Edit: At one point ANet said that legendary weapons will always have the best stat combinations. Only the devil might think they'd introduce more gear tiers.
What's this talk of raising the level cap? There are no plans in the works to do so right now, and according to Colin he hopes there never will be. Regarding vertical progression, it looks a lot like ascended is it, if you follow the CDI thread on the official forums you'll see the devs collecting input on that.
Oh, and Legendary weapons have and always have had the best stats. That has never changed, so I have no idea why you're even bringing that up.
This doesn't invalidate my point. A bit more powerful is still more powerful. Investing a lot of money to get things faster is still paying to speed things up. You might argue that both points are connected.
I wonder how much you got to grind for a couple of toons once they raise the level cap and introduce more vertical progression. GW2 is a true cash shop game (meaning everything is designed with the cash shop in mind).
Edit: At one point ANet said that legendary weapons will always have the best stat combinations. Only the devil might think they'd introduce more gear tiers.
What's this talk of raising the level cap? There are no plans in the works to do so right now, and according to Colin he hopes there never will be. Regarding vertical progression, it looks a lot like ascended is it, if you follow the CDI thread on the official forums you'll see the devs collecting input on that.
Oh, and Legendary weapons have and always have had the best stats. That has never changed, so I have no idea why you're even bringing that up.
Investing money now in legendary weapons is a good way to prevent any vertical progression from affecting you personally. I think this is an important point if you got loads of money and are expecting some things to come or in other words want to play the market. Legendaries will only rise in price since GW2's inflation is without bounds.
I don't care about their stupid CDI threads, they sold me on the promises they made before release and then broke them. I don't see them ever going back to a truly horizontal progression system only, because they are bound to release exclusives on the cash shop to drive their income. About raising the level cap: http://www.gamefront.com/guild-wars-2-level-cap-raise-confirmed-for-future/, hence expect a bunch of new tiers and gear at some point in the future.
There is a GW2 expansion on the way. Heck, they even admitted it at their financial investor call which ANet tried to backtrack on while NCSoft didn't. Notice that the party who admitted it (NCSoft) didn't backtrack so yes, higher level / areas etc is coming.
Since Gems -> Gold and Gold -> Legendaries, GW2 falls under the 'P2W' category.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
(Since almost all no-sub mmo removed, or does not even have, over-powered cash items, the P2W in my point of view has became how a cash player could save a great amount of time over a free player.)
Am I the only one who is thinking about this? For instance, with the newly introduced sellable agony resistence and increasing rate for gem to gold, a cash player could easily obtain almost all available pve gears(any stats) instantly. There are also many other ways to spend you real money in gw2 to gain a time lead. Due to the low gold-reward rate with the punishment from DR, free players need to spend so long on either grinding dungeons or farming gold in order to achieve the same.
Although I already got what I wanted after excessively and repetitively doing some contents, I really feel bad about the situation that new players will face.
Edit: Highlight the part of changing definition on P2W to improve the understanding of my original intention.
Edit 2: Reword the part for AR to make it more clear. Now it should not makes reader thinks that pay to get AR is the main point of my argument.
Indeed and even though GW2 is a B2P MMO the need for a steady stream of money is still there. This means putting in items and features that people want but do not necessarily need to play. Views of what is P2W can vary but stores can have either direct P2W (instant power buy), indirect (xp potions) and of course cosmetics.
My main beef is that a reagent is needed each time you want to change the appearance of a piece gear and the stock weapons and armor as you level are drab for the most part. /endselfrant
That's what happened with the removal of a sub. The equalizing effect of a charge across the board kept the playable gains to in game accomplishments. Now the range is from free to x and while this opens up games to anyone with an internet connection the expectation of equal experience is, IMO, an unrealistic one. The end goal for the developers is still the same, remain profitable, but it's as though they are expected to work for the same amount we want to pay for their games.
There is a GW2 expansion on the way. Heck, they even admitted it at their financial investor call which ANet tried to backtrack on while NCSoft didn't. Notice that the party who admitted it (NCSoft) didn't backtrack so yes, higher level / areas etc is coming.
Since Gems -> Gold and Gold -> Legendaries, GW2 falls under the 'P2W' category.
ArenaNet released three expansions (technically one and two stand alone games) for the original Guild Wars franchise and never raised the level cap above 20. There was never a need to, just like in GW2.
And no, having a legendary is not equal to win. I see plenty of corpses in WvW with legendary weapons. Pay to win has always been about purchasing power to excel in PvP. P2W games are notorious for having power for sale that is simply inaccessible by any other means and so much more powerful that it's impossible to compete without it. You can buy a significant advantage in pay to win games.
Guild Wars 2 does not have anything remotely resembling that. First of all, you cannot buy weapons or armor from ArenaNet. Only skins, no stats. They are not selling power. You can, however, buy gems to convert (at a crappy exchange rate, btw) to gold in order to help purchase items from other players. So at best, they're offering a means to facilitate trade between players in order to help players catch up to each other.
Pay to win - Buying power to pull ahead of everyone else.
Guild Wars 2 - Buying stuff from other players to catch up with everyone else a little quicker.
If you can't see the difference, there's no helping you.
There is no P2W in GW2, there are no locked items reserved especially for ppl using the ingame shop.
Players can craft items, everything else can be acquired on the market or by looting, so it is available to every player in the game.
Players that say GW2 is P2W seriously need to develop some skills, they are too dependant on gear alone, maybe spoonfed too long by gear>everything else tredmills like Blizzard?
In GW2 skills>everything else, the ingame cashshop is indeed a shortcut and alternative for some farming/grinding if ppl don't want to play the game.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Comments
Hey, welcome back Geez! Wintersday is a great time to come back for a visit.
I'm not sure what power you're referring to being able to buy... if it's the ability to buy a Legendary weapon off the Trading Post then I have issues with that for one main reason... you're not buying power supplied by ANet for cash. You're buying a weapon crafted (with considerable effort) by another player in the game. With the current prices of some legendary weapons some people may indeed choose to get the gold needed to buy it by exchanging purchased gems for gold rather than earn the gold in game, this is true, but the fact is this is simply a transfer of power (small though it may be) from one player to another, not items supplied by ANet and ANet alone. They certainly don't give a notable advantage, and in WvW may be a disadvantage as they could make many people a target...
So the question is this - how is pay to win being defined these days? Is it still the traditional definition where you pay cash to obtain items with power unavailable from within the game alone that give you a notable increase in "win"? Or is the definition so watered down these days that it now covers getting in game currency a bit more quickly to buy something you could have bought over time anyhow? Because if you use the latter definition then I doubt there's a game left in existence that wouldn't meet it.
If you read the OP and some of the OP's follow up posts, you'll see that this thread is an attempt to redefine and solidify the definition to the one that applies to nearly every game. One of the posts I think even says that it's an attempt to define P2W as being able to buy anything that gives an advantage, even if the advantage is temporary.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Thank you for answering that.
So it is in fact against the ELUA. But yet, players are openly trading in chat channels and Blizz does nothing about it. Well, why would they I guess? After all, it means someone bought an extra month of game time. Blizz wins all the way around by ignoring it.
Here's the way I see it.
Looking back at GW2 at launch, you could buy a new account. Buy Gems, Trade for gold, use the gold to level all crafts. Basically, you can buy a level 80 toon. From there, you could outfit that character fully with exotics.
Why did I not consider that Pay to Win? Because you were trading time for money but at the end, it equalized. That's the key (for me). Exotics were supposed to be the end of it all. Once there, you'd go no further. No matter how much you spent. And likewise no matter how much time you put in.
But lets look at a game where equalization is not so easy. Games where new gear, buffs, powers what have you, are being added in at regular intervals, that screws up the equalization. If the player who spends time is always chasing the carrot, while the player who spends money is able to reach the carrot, then the advantage is constant and the game becomes pay to win.
The gray areas now, are the rate at whcih the increases are released. Obviously the slower and less significant increases have less impact on the equalization, then there is less P2W factor.
There isn't any redefining going on.
There was always an equal playing field in most AAA MMO titles.
The only advantage someone had was how much time they spent playing.
This concept is too hard for people to grasp.
From Blizzard Support Thread: Pahanda This question has been answered many times. If the code is entered or redeemed on a webpage, it is an out-of-game item. Out-of-game items may not be exchanged for in-game currency (gold) or services. This applies to game time codes, pet store codes, and the TCG codes printed on the physical cards (among other things).
Thank you for answering that.
So it is in fact against the ELUA. But yet, players are openly trading in chat channels and Blizz does nothing about it. Well, why would they I guess? After all, it means someone bought an extra month of game time. Blizz wins all the way around by ignoring it.
This is kind of off topic, but Blizzard is very slow to enforce rules against individuals. What they do is wait and periodically ban or systemically remove large quantities of people who are breaking the rules. They won't ban one botter when you find them, they'll wait and ban hundreds or thousands of people using that bot software. I would expect it's the same for people doing things like trading game time and such in the game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I've asked a few times for people who have run with a definition for P2W to present that definition. Where did they find it? I asked this because I know they just made it up.
A definition actually already exists.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play
In the F2P Wiki page is a reference to "Pay To Win". Essentially it applies in F2P games where "Winning" is dependent upon paying money. LotRO would be P2W because there is content that is inaccessible to the Free player*. SWToR is really close to P2W because their end game content is heavily restricted to free players. It's not completely restricted, but it's close.
The other P2W definition revolves around PvP. As in there's no way to beat another player without spending money in the cash shop.
There is a requirement that players must pay money to even have a chance to "Win" and any player who does not pay money cannot "Win"; they "Lose". Any game that doesn't do this, where players can "Win" without paying money is not a P2W game.
That doesn't mean that GW2 has a good system. I have no idea of the relative merits of their system. It could be horrible or it could be benign. Trying to apply "P2W" to GW2 is an attempt to paint GW2 in a bad light by attaching a bad word to the game and doesn't address any issues with the game at all. It's a side show, nothing more.
* I think. I'm really not that familiar with LotRO.
**
Grammar, always with the grammar.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
*U mean pay?
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http://www.thefreedictionary.com/advantage
ad·van·tage:
1. A beneficial factor or combination of factors.
2. Benefit or profit; gain: It is to your advantage to invest wisely.
3. A relatively favorable position; superiority of means: A better education gave us the advantage.
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The term P2W i as raised with is when your get and advantage, superior position, that is not normaly available in game, your NEED to pay to advance in-game(Thus is the fate in many F2P games).
In GW2 you get exotics by playing the game
Also can get exotics by Trading -> gem -> gold.
IN this scenario your paying to be EQUAL, not superior, EQUAL.
So how do you WIN by being equal?
Now, we have ascended gear, top gear, dat can only be aquired by playing the game, crafting, crafting mats that can only be get by doing dungeons/WvWvW/Events.
HOW DO YOU WIN HERE?
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
The crux of the issue here seems that some people find the "advantage" of having to spend less time in the game P2W. While I agree to a certain degree that grinding for items can be bloody tedious work, I hardly think it's P2W. The only advantage you get, is that you reach the finish line a bit faster.
That said, I find it hilarious that some people in this thread come up with their own definition of P2W, apply it to "a lot of people agree that my definition is the definition" and call others out for not agreeing with them.
Items in GW2 are obtainable in a decent amount of time. Buying them speeds this up a bit and as others have pointed out, having them doesn't mean everything. An example of P2W can be found in those goddamn mobile phone CCG. If you don't pay, you simply can't compete. That's not the case in GW2.
The problem with an absolute definition of "P2W" is that any kind of "advantage" in an MMO has to pertain to the individual's play style. We are getting back to the question of OK, you paid for something but is it "WIN"? What is P2W for one is meaningless to another. We all have our own idea of what "WIN" is in an MMO and it's different from player to player. At the same time, you cannot make someone change their ideal of winning to match a paper definition if that definition doesn't line up with that player's motivation for playing.
When we can come up with a universal definition of why we all play MMOs, then we can come up with a universal definition of what it means to win them.
Read trough a lot of post here , defining p2w in gw2 for ppl buying legendaryes/ascended or so on....
Did u ppl actually played the game ? seems not if u brag about that stuff
1st legendary takes 1 month to make ( if u don't buy it from AH by spending real money on diamonds then selling them or by buying it on ebay or wichever site sells it ilegally ... and it's still not p2w , i can waste a legendary weapons user using an exotic weapon any time )
2nd one takes around 1 week or less ... and i don't play hundreds of hours a week
Ascended weapons take about 9 days to make same goes with 1 piece of ascended armor ( there are no boosters that help u craft them faster , unless if u use drop rate boosters in fractals and pray for an good drop )
So were is the p2w in GW2 ? in those boosters ? or in the idea that ppl know the game and get items faster than u or look better than u ?
It is pay to proceed faster and be more powerful in WvW. Since gold is becoming the most important resource you can buy via gems, buying gems gets you faster to where you want. It is not pay to win, because in s/tpvp all gear is on the same level and in wvw it doesn't matter much. You might argue that 5% better stats is still better than exotics, hence p2w, but you can acquire the same stats via regular play.
Another question is more important: Do you have more money or more time to spend? Most people will say money.
That's because it's rare that is what the person is buying or looking to get from what they bought. That's simple a convenient talking point for spindoctoring F2P haters to snow their often very uninformed followers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ascended weapons are as powerful as Legendary weapons.
We are talking minimum of $375 to buy gems to convert to gold to get a legendary weapon.
And it isn't even 5% better stats since it is only a 5% improvement on 1 of 13/14 slots if you the other player isn't using ascended weapons.
Also, the legendary weapons aren't sold directly, they are sold by other players. The only reason I can see for a player to sell its legendary weapon is to buy a legendary weapon he wants instead of whatever precursor he/she got.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
This doesn't invalidate my point. A bit more powerful is still more powerful. Investing a lot of money to get things faster is still paying to speed things up. You might argue that both points are connected.
I wonder how much you got to grind for a couple of toons once they raise the level cap and introduce more vertical progression. GW2 is a true cash shop game (meaning everything is designed with the cash shop in mind).
Edit: At one point ANet said that legendary weapons will always have the best stat combinations. Only the devil might think they'd introduce more gear tiers.
Yes there is a little gap of Pay to WIN still you will need quite a lot of money to get throw that gap
And is Pay To Win from TIME = Progression for exampel you can buy a Legendary easely or get full set with most expencive runes sigil but this is not directly Pay to Win
PAY TO WIN is when in cash shop you have items that boots you dmg like in Silkroad you could buy potion DMG scroll and a mage with all stuff from Cash shop could WIPE any anything instantly THAT WAS PAY TO WIN
in gw is a bit diffrent
What's this talk of raising the level cap? There are no plans in the works to do so right now, and according to Colin he hopes there never will be. Regarding vertical progression, it looks a lot like ascended is it, if you follow the CDI thread on the official forums you'll see the devs collecting input on that.
Oh, and Legendary weapons have and always have had the best stats. That has never changed, so I have no idea why you're even bringing that up.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Investing money now in legendary weapons is a good way to prevent any vertical progression from affecting you personally. I think this is an important point if you got loads of money and are expecting some things to come or in other words want to play the market. Legendaries will only rise in price since GW2's inflation is without bounds.
I don't care about their stupid CDI threads, they sold me on the promises they made before release and then broke them. I don't see them ever going back to a truly horizontal progression system only, because they are bound to release exclusives on the cash shop to drive their income. About raising the level cap: http://www.gamefront.com/guild-wars-2-level-cap-raise-confirmed-for-future/, hence expect a bunch of new tiers and gear at some point in the future.
There is a GW2 expansion on the way. Heck, they even admitted it at their financial investor call which ANet tried to backtrack on while NCSoft didn't. Notice that the party who admitted it (NCSoft) didn't backtrack so yes, higher level / areas etc is coming.
Since Gems -> Gold and Gold -> Legendaries, GW2 falls under the 'P2W' category.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Indeed and even though GW2 is a B2P MMO the need for a steady stream of money is still there. This means putting in items and features that people want but do not necessarily need to play. Views of what is P2W can vary but stores can have either direct P2W (instant power buy), indirect (xp potions) and of course cosmetics.
My main beef is that a reagent is needed each time you want to change the appearance of a piece gear and the stock weapons and armor as you level are drab for the most part. /endselfrant
That's what happened with the removal of a sub. The equalizing effect of a charge across the board kept the playable gains to in game accomplishments. Now the range is from free to x and while this opens up games to anyone with an internet connection the expectation of equal experience is, IMO, an unrealistic one. The end goal for the developers is still the same, remain profitable, but it's as though they are expected to work for the same amount we want to pay for their games.
ArenaNet released three expansions (technically one and two stand alone games) for the original Guild Wars franchise and never raised the level cap above 20. There was never a need to, just like in GW2.
And no, having a legendary is not equal to win. I see plenty of corpses in WvW with legendary weapons. Pay to win has always been about purchasing power to excel in PvP. P2W games are notorious for having power for sale that is simply inaccessible by any other means and so much more powerful that it's impossible to compete without it. You can buy a significant advantage in pay to win games.
Guild Wars 2 does not have anything remotely resembling that. First of all, you cannot buy weapons or armor from ArenaNet. Only skins, no stats. They are not selling power. You can, however, buy gems to convert (at a crappy exchange rate, btw) to gold in order to help purchase items from other players. So at best, they're offering a means to facilitate trade between players in order to help players catch up to each other.
Pay to win - Buying power to pull ahead of everyone else.
Guild Wars 2 - Buying stuff from other players to catch up with everyone else a little quicker.
If you can't see the difference, there's no helping you.
There is no P2W in GW2, there are no locked items reserved especially for ppl using the ingame shop.
Players can craft items, everything else can be acquired on the market or by looting, so it is available to every player in the game.
Players that say GW2 is P2W seriously need to develop some skills, they are too dependant on gear alone, maybe spoonfed too long by gear>everything else tredmills like Blizzard?
In GW2 skills>everything else, the ingame cashshop is indeed a shortcut and alternative for some farming/grinding if ppl don't want to play the game.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I think the big difference is it is "really easy" to gear up in this game.
Most people is already running in optimal gear so the p2w never became a problem.
Not to mention the pve is jokingly easy. Not to mention the stats different is really small between tier.