I think even following the Themepark model, I think LOTRO has some very significant failings in terms of the IP....
- Middle Earth of the 3rd Age really was a very low magic, low fantasy setting. Few possesed significant magic (the Istari and the Great Elf Lords, of which the players are not) and thier overt use of it was very rare. Most of the magic that one saw used was subtle in nature and effect. The place had a much more "down to earth" feel. LOTRO started out not too badly in this regard in the earlier parts of SoA but shifted more to High Fantasy/ High and Loud magic and over the top heroic's. That could maybe be acceptable if the game were set in the 1st Age and the players were playing the greater heroes of it. However, for the setting the game is supposed to take place under it really is VERY, VERY out of place.
- One of the most persistant themes of the book is the sense of Journey that is taking place. It's really what the book is all about, the vastness and wildness of the world, the sheer difficulty and hazard of travel, of getting from point A to point B. The game really does a horrible job in representing this, in fact it pretty much doesn't represent it at all. The game really is more about jumping quickly from one small, densely packed zone to another....hoping from one quest hub to another to do a bunch of fighting quests before you move on to the next with little effort....and pretty much the only hazard encountered is combat. There are only a few places where the game gives any hint of distance, of Journey, of mystery and exploration of the wild.
- The other big theme running through the books is that of the Fellowship itself. That is of the relationships between the characters, thier interdependence upon one another, thier need for one another and for those they encounter along the way, the idea that together they are much stronger then the sum of thier parts. LOTRO started out with a little bit of a nod toward this with the concept of fellowship manuvers and with the need for groups to do some of the storyline content and even with a couple optional things out in the open world where you really needed help from others to accomplish. It wasn't alot, but at least it was there. However it later abandoned even this nod to the idea of interdependance and went completely the opposite direction to where the game really could best be described as a solo game with difficulty in finding much content oriented toward groups or even duo's.
None of the above neccesitate a shift from Themepark to Sandbox. You can do a Themepark with a low magic, low fantasy setting where you mostly encounter magic represented in subtle rather then loud ways. You can do a Themepark which is set in a very large sparsely populated game world.....where alot of the gameplay focuses on the difficulty and hazards of getting from point A to point B. You certainly can do a Themepark which is much more focused on group content and the neccessity of players to work together to defeat challenges and help each other out. It would be a different Themepark then is typical of most modern MMO's but it's certainly something that could be done within the confines of the Themepark model. So it's not really all about a preference for sandbox over themepark. There are alot of areas where LOTRO just doesn't represent the IP well. Though I do think it's fair to say that the IP doesn't fit very well with the "typical" MMO model that is very prevelant today with AAA MMO's.
Brings back memories of the "Lore wars" in the official forums 6 or 7 years ago... especially when the Runekeeper was announced. I gather the wars never ended?
I don't think I would have enjoyed playing the lore-consistent version of Middle Earth Online. I'm not in it to soak up the atmosphere of Tolkien's universe. To me, they were books I enjoyed...but I've read better high fantasy. I even think (sorry, sacrilege incoming) that the "culling" that Peter Jackson did for the movies enhanced the story...shrug.
Disclosure: Yes, I prefer playing the Loremaster and Runekeeper over all the other classes... I'm sure this does not surprise you.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The failing of this game was due to the company abandoning what made them what they are (were) and making a themepark clone based on level and gear progression.
You CANNOT tell a long story by forcing players through leveling and gear grind. All you do is block players from the story.
If Lotro was closer to AC it might have been more successful
This. When Turbine scrapped their sandbox plans and made Middle Earth Online into a WoW clone, the game never recovered.
For those who don't know that this game, all the way up until the alpha friends and family point of development, was called Middle Earth Online, and was a totally different kind of game...
"
Well, this game used to be an ambitious sandbox game called Middle Earth Online, that focused on simulating life in Middle Earth.
Then WoW got big, Turbine got scared, fired most of their devs, hired devs fresh out of college, and in 9 months fast tracked this game into LotRO, instanced quest grinding linear game with boring mechanics and atmosphere ruined by invisible walls, instances, and bad gameplay. The only good features in the games are relics from Middle Earth Online.
It's a shame what happened and I wish another company could get a shot with it. But so long as a publisher is behind it, we'll never get a good MMO in Middle Earth."
Oh WOW!!! I thought those complaining about SWTOR 2 years in were bad....man over 6 years in and still telling lies about a video game, still crying and whining about a video game you dont play. Its ok i mean I would hope you have found a new game since. Alright where to start with your misinformation...
First besides some angry meo folks like yourself please on please show some proof about "Turbine got scared, fired most of their devs, hired devs fresh out of college, and in 9 months fast tracked this game into LotRO" oh thats lie #1
Second instanced quest grinding linear game? Lie number 2, this is an open world game, sure there are some instance guest but the majority are not.
Third well this in not a lie but its your opinion and the game is healthy over six years in so I would say your opinion really doesnt mean anything when it comes to LOTRO.
Fourth invisible walls yeah again this is just a lie thats three lies, I can run from Thorins gate to Helms Deep (a journey that would take over 3 hours) and NOT ONCE hit an invisible wall and maybe have 3 load screens.
Its a shame grown adults need to post lies and misinformation about video games they hate (yeah i know sad that a person can hate a video game) and a video game they dont play.
The failing of this game was due to the company abandoning what made them what they are (were) and making a themepark clone based on level and gear progression.
You CANNOT tell a long story by forcing players through leveling and gear grind. All you do is block players from the story.
If Lotro was closer to AC it might have been more successful
This. When Turbine scrapped their sandbox plans and made Middle Earth Online into a WoW clone, the game never recovered.
For those who don't know that this game, all the way up until the alpha friends and family point of development, was called Middle Earth Online, and was a totally different kind of game...
"
Well, this game used to be an ambitious sandbox game called Middle Earth Online, that focused on simulating life in Middle Earth.
Then WoW got big, Turbine got scared, fired most of their devs, hired devs fresh out of college, and in 9 months fast tracked this game into LotRO, instanced quest grinding linear game with boring mechanics and atmosphere ruined by invisible walls, instances, and bad gameplay. The only good features in the games are relics from Middle Earth Online.
It's a shame what happened and I wish another company could get a shot with it. But so long as a publisher is behind it, we'll never get a good MMO in Middle Earth."
Oh WOW!!! I thought those complaining about SWTOR 2 years in were bad....man over 6 years in and still telling lies about a video game, still crying and whining about a video game you dont play. Its ok i mean I would hope you have found a new game since. Alright where to start with your misinformation...
First besides some angry meo folks like yourself please on please show some proof about "Turbine got scared, fired most of their devs, hired devs fresh out of college, and in 9 months fast tracked this game into LotRO" oh thats lie #1
Second instanced quest grinding linear game? Lie number 2, this is an open world game, sure there are some instance guest but the majority are not.
Third well this in not a lie but its your opinion and the game is healthy over six years in so I would say your opinion really doesnt mean anything when it comes to LOTRO.
Fourth invisible walls yeah again this is just a lie thats three lies, I can run from Thorins gate to Helms Deep (a journey that would take over 3 hours) and NOT ONCE hit an invisible wall and maybe have 3 load screens.
Its a shame grown adults need to post lies and misinformation about video games they hate (yeah i know sad that a person can hate a video game) and a video game they dont play.
They still didnt connect the fords of isen to each other. The one in Rohan doesnt connect to the one in the Gap of Rohan.
But to get from Thorins to HD you have to run through moria which will give a couple load screens.
But basically its Erid Luin, Shire (load screen always and only one there was at one time), Shire to Bree, bree to Lone lands, Lone lands to Trollshaws, Troll Shaws to Eregion, Eregion to Moria, Moria (two load screens there) to Lothlorien, Lothlorien to great River, Great River to Rohan. Had they done it 'right' You would be able to go from Eregion to Enedwaith, to Dunland, gap Of Rohan to Rohan proper just north of Helms Deep.
As for the other stuff, game isnt nearly what is SHOULD and could be. Helms Deep was supposed to be the turning point where Turbine had a chance to get it right, they coudnt have gotten it more wrong if they tried. I dont like to blame it on free to play but that might be a viable excuse here. or theyre going to lose their license and theyre just putting the least amount of money into it and trying to get the most out of it before they close up shop. But this expansion could have been done better by a couple guys in their basements. Thats really how bad it is. The 'fix' list is about 500 items and growing, and they released this mess. The 'fix' list also isnt addressing a lot of other glaring problems, just the ones the expansion created.
The only excuse Turbine has is that it IS a free to play game now and you get what they want to give. Sure you have to pay 45 bux for it (unless they pay you which is the case for a lot of people) then its all free. I just know if I would have had to pay for anything from these guys I wouldnt be playing this game anymore at all but since I got the founders lifetime deal years ago then I do and it is fine for me. But for a 'normal' person, it isnt worth it at all.
There are perhaps tons of ambitious teams out there but the TEAM is not in charge,the CEO,the board members,stock holders and in many cases the publisher are in charge.The real problem with this industry is it is always about business and profits first.When decisions are made it is not about what is BEST,but always about what is most cost effective.Point being NONE of these games are going to be their best effort and right now over the past few years we are getting VERY shallow efforts from developers.
Not only has the effort been terrible,now devs are stooping so low as to try and sell us cash shop right up front before games are even released LMAO.Sadly people buy into this nonsense known as Founders packs or Kickstarters,whatever yo uwant to call it,it is still a form of cash shop and free handouts.
I have never been a big fan of Turbine,they are ok but imo not capable of a top notch game.Unfortunately there is nobody else that i could say would do a better job.If i was a decent sized operation,i would hire Tanaka from Square Enix,i feel, he has been shuffled back in their operation but is imo the best man they ever had.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Its one of the most open pve worlds sine UO, together with vanguard...
Erm nope. Anarchy Online and WoW both had much larger open worlds than LOTRO, and most recently GW2, even more because of the downscaling system.
you can do and go everywhere, with or withouth quests... And espescially the orriginal game has some great open world dungeons...
Well, you can't go into Moria without completing the corresponding quest line first, which is not available before level 50. Therefore, all Rhovanion is totally inaccessible to a low level character.
In UO, AO, WoW, GW2, VG but also SWG, EQ, EQ2, AC1 and many others that don't come to my mind right now, you can go anywhere in the game world at level 1. In LOTRO, if you didn't do the Moria quest line, you are restricted to Eriador. Right now, that means almost half of the game inaccessible to you. No visit of Edoras before you unlocked and passed through Moria. Also, without quests, you can't go into the eastern part of Angmar.
In green, thanks for saying this because you took the thought right out of my head when I read that post. GW2 followed the older MMOs in having a fully evolved virtual world. WoW was, and still is, very similar to the first generation of MMOs in that sense. GW2 as well. There is no irritating instadeath or wall or blue/green zone door that says you can't go somewhere. There are some limits in WoW. I can't fly on my mount from Eastern Kingdoms to Outlands for example, and I can't go out into deep ocean unfortunately. The Cata and MoP starting areas are not freely available and getting to MoP is difficult without the help of a mage, but virtually everything else is available at your own risk of course.
Other more recent games might have adopted many of WoW's features but one of the ones that they have not is the openness of the world. ToR is one of the worst, and I remember LotRO as being particularly bad in those respects. In fact, I consider it the precursor of ToR-style development.
Brings back memories of the "Lore wars" in the official forums 6 or 7 years ago... especially when the Runekeeper was announced. I gather the wars never ended?
I don't think I would have enjoyed playing the lore-consistent version of Middle Earth Online. I'm not in it to soak up the atmosphere of Tolkien's universe. To me, they were books I enjoyed...but I've read better high fantasy. I even think (sorry, sacrilege incoming) that the "culling" that Peter Jackson did for the movies enhanced the story...shrug.
Disclosure: Yes, I prefer playing the Loremaster and Runekeeper over all the other classes... I'm sure this does not surprise you.
I too liked the Loremaster and Runekeeper (oops, don't let that one get out). However, I think that they should have kept closer to the books. After all they depict a lore-heavy world in intricate detail. I mean, why choose an IP known for its detailed lore and then start breaking from it bit by bit rather than either generating your own IP or using a different, less detailed one ? It pretty much defeats the purpose.
Comments
I think even following the Themepark model, I think LOTRO has some very significant failings in terms of the IP....
- Middle Earth of the 3rd Age really was a very low magic, low fantasy setting. Few possesed significant magic (the Istari and the Great Elf Lords, of which the players are not) and thier overt use of it was very rare. Most of the magic that one saw used was subtle in nature and effect. The place had a much more "down to earth" feel. LOTRO started out not too badly in this regard in the earlier parts of SoA but shifted more to High Fantasy/ High and Loud magic and over the top heroic's. That could maybe be acceptable if the game were set in the 1st Age and the players were playing the greater heroes of it. However, for the setting the game is supposed to take place under it really is VERY, VERY out of place.
- One of the most persistant themes of the book is the sense of Journey that is taking place. It's really what the book is all about, the vastness and wildness of the world, the sheer difficulty and hazard of travel, of getting from point A to point B. The game really does a horrible job in representing this, in fact it pretty much doesn't represent it at all. The game really is more about jumping quickly from one small, densely packed zone to another....hoping from one quest hub to another to do a bunch of fighting quests before you move on to the next with little effort....and pretty much the only hazard encountered is combat. There are only a few places where the game gives any hint of distance, of Journey, of mystery and exploration of the wild.
- The other big theme running through the books is that of the Fellowship itself. That is of the relationships between the characters, thier interdependence upon one another, thier need for one another and for those they encounter along the way, the idea that together they are much stronger then the sum of thier parts. LOTRO started out with a little bit of a nod toward this with the concept of fellowship manuvers and with the need for groups to do some of the storyline content and even with a couple optional things out in the open world where you really needed help from others to accomplish. It wasn't alot, but at least it was there. However it later abandoned even this nod to the idea of interdependance and went completely the opposite direction to where the game really could best be described as a solo game with difficulty in finding much content oriented toward groups or even duo's.
None of the above neccesitate a shift from Themepark to Sandbox. You can do a Themepark with a low magic, low fantasy setting where you mostly encounter magic represented in subtle rather then loud ways. You can do a Themepark which is set in a very large sparsely populated game world.....where alot of the gameplay focuses on the difficulty and hazards of getting from point A to point B. You certainly can do a Themepark which is much more focused on group content and the neccessity of players to work together to defeat challenges and help each other out. It would be a different Themepark then is typical of most modern MMO's but it's certainly something that could be done within the confines of the Themepark model. So it's not really all about a preference for sandbox over themepark. There are alot of areas where LOTRO just doesn't represent the IP well. Though I do think it's fair to say that the IP doesn't fit very well with the "typical" MMO model that is very prevelant today with AAA MMO's.
What a quaint thread
Brings back memories of the "Lore wars" in the official forums 6 or 7 years ago... especially when the Runekeeper was announced. I gather the wars never ended?
I don't think I would have enjoyed playing the lore-consistent version of Middle Earth Online. I'm not in it to soak up the atmosphere of Tolkien's universe. To me, they were books I enjoyed...but I've read better high fantasy. I even think (sorry, sacrilege incoming) that the "culling" that Peter Jackson did for the movies enhanced the story...shrug.
Disclosure: Yes, I prefer playing the Loremaster and Runekeeper over all the other classes... I'm sure this does not surprise you.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Oh WOW!!! I thought those complaining about SWTOR 2 years in were bad....man over 6 years in and still telling lies about a video game, still crying and whining about a video game you dont play. Its ok i mean I would hope you have found a new game since. Alright where to start with your misinformation...
First besides some angry meo folks like yourself please on please show some proof about "Turbine got scared, fired most of their devs, hired devs fresh out of college, and in 9 months fast tracked this game into LotRO" oh thats lie #1
Second instanced quest grinding linear game? Lie number 2, this is an open world game, sure there are some instance guest but the majority are not.
Third well this in not a lie but its your opinion and the game is healthy over six years in so I would say your opinion really doesnt mean anything when it comes to LOTRO.
Fourth invisible walls yeah again this is just a lie thats three lies, I can run from Thorins gate to Helms Deep (a journey that would take over 3 hours) and NOT ONCE hit an invisible wall and maybe have 3 load screens.
Fifth bad gameplay again please see #3
Its a shame grown adults need to post lies and misinformation about video games they hate (yeah i know sad that a person can hate a video game) and a video game they dont play.
They still didnt connect the fords of isen to each other. The one in Rohan doesnt connect to the one in the Gap of Rohan.
But to get from Thorins to HD you have to run through moria which will give a couple load screens.
But basically its Erid Luin, Shire (load screen always and only one there was at one time), Shire to Bree, bree to Lone lands, Lone lands to Trollshaws, Troll Shaws to Eregion, Eregion to Moria, Moria (two load screens there) to Lothlorien, Lothlorien to great River, Great River to Rohan. Had they done it 'right' You would be able to go from Eregion to Enedwaith, to Dunland, gap Of Rohan to Rohan proper just north of Helms Deep.
As for the other stuff, game isnt nearly what is SHOULD and could be. Helms Deep was supposed to be the turning point where Turbine had a chance to get it right, they coudnt have gotten it more wrong if they tried. I dont like to blame it on free to play but that might be a viable excuse here. or theyre going to lose their license and theyre just putting the least amount of money into it and trying to get the most out of it before they close up shop. But this expansion could have been done better by a couple guys in their basements. Thats really how bad it is. The 'fix' list is about 500 items and growing, and they released this mess. The 'fix' list also isnt addressing a lot of other glaring problems, just the ones the expansion created.
The only excuse Turbine has is that it IS a free to play game now and you get what they want to give. Sure you have to pay 45 bux for it (unless they pay you which is the case for a lot of people) then its all free. I just know if I would have had to pay for anything from these guys I wouldnt be playing this game anymore at all but since I got the founders lifetime deal years ago then I do and it is fine for me. But for a 'normal' person, it isnt worth it at all.
Keyword OP...Ambitious team.
There are perhaps tons of ambitious teams out there but the TEAM is not in charge,the CEO,the board members,stock holders and in many cases the publisher are in charge.The real problem with this industry is it is always about business and profits first.When decisions are made it is not about what is BEST,but always about what is most cost effective.Point being NONE of these games are going to be their best effort and right now over the past few years we are getting VERY shallow efforts from developers.
Not only has the effort been terrible,now devs are stooping so low as to try and sell us cash shop right up front before games are even released LMAO.Sadly people buy into this nonsense known as Founders packs or Kickstarters,whatever yo uwant to call it,it is still a form of cash shop and free handouts.
I have never been a big fan of Turbine,they are ok but imo not capable of a top notch game.Unfortunately there is nobody else that i could say would do a better job.If i was a decent sized operation,i would hire Tanaka from Square Enix,i feel, he has been shuffled back in their operation but is imo the best man they ever had.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
In green, thanks for saying this because you took the thought right out of my head when I read that post. GW2 followed the older MMOs in having a fully evolved virtual world. WoW was, and still is, very similar to the first generation of MMOs in that sense. GW2 as well. There is no irritating instadeath or wall or blue/green zone door that says you can't go somewhere. There are some limits in WoW. I can't fly on my mount from Eastern Kingdoms to Outlands for example, and I can't go out into deep ocean unfortunately. The Cata and MoP starting areas are not freely available and getting to MoP is difficult without the help of a mage, but virtually everything else is available at your own risk of course.
Other more recent games might have adopted many of WoW's features but one of the ones that they have not is the openness of the world. ToR is one of the worst, and I remember LotRO as being particularly bad in those respects. In fact, I consider it the precursor of ToR-style development.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
I too liked the Loremaster and Runekeeper (oops, don't let that one get out). However, I think that they should have kept closer to the books. After all they depict a lore-heavy world in intricate detail. I mean, why choose an IP known for its detailed lore and then start breaking from it bit by bit rather than either generating your own IP or using a different, less detailed one ? It pretty much defeats the purpose.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.