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Unreasonable Expectations.
Kamofila
Member UncommonPosts: 116
I see far to many people complain or give input on the way companies choose to develop their games but clearly have no idea about any part of the process that goes into creating said game. I think as a community we need to step back and give devs a break.
I wholeheartedly believe our unreasonable expectation over that last few years have had a massive impact on the current state of mmo gaming. Devs forced to cut corners or compromise to deal with those expectations. We need to take games for what they are and praise the devs for the things they do right more than bash and crap all over them for the things we dislike (even though most wont/don't understand why such creative or design based decisions are made. Maybe then devs will actually be inspired to create the games we all have wishfully swirling around our overindulged egos, instead of trying to make everyone happy and therefore coming out with a game that is bland with no heart or soul.
Just my two cents (throw lit match on dry bush that is mmorpg.com)
Do you like lollipops? Suck it. Don't bite you greedy twit.
Comments
What he said.
Ahnog
Hokey religions are no replacement for a good blaster at your side.
Look on the bright side, if we complain and stick around, is it not better than staying quiet and going elsewhere!
Doing so, would doom a game and the devs would have no clue as to what they need to do to fix it!
You don't, you see a small minority complaining and extrapolate (on a bad sample).
aye. the developers should know what the expectations are by now. them not living up to those expectations has more to due with cost than anything.
I speaking to cutting corners more as trying to implement so many features to appease everyone that each individual feature is lacking (instead of starting small and perfecting fewer features to start). The cost stays the same when you spread it out to too many things to start the whole game will lack on a fundamental level. which comes back around to people expecting far to much.
Do you like lollipops? Suck it. Don't bite you greedy twit.
What do you expect? Millions of people expecting and enjoying the same? They should have a vision and should stick to it. If they let the development be lead by the consumers they will fail.
I sort of disagree with that. the trend now is selling early access and getting feedback directly from the people interested in the game. the developers come up with a premise some basic gameplay and work with the community to mold the game into something that community will enjoy. a lot of people will buy based on hype or impulse. some will decide its not for them and stop playing. the ones that continue to play are the voices the developers will choose to listen to the most. and that community, those consumers are the ones the game should be/and is being made for. it just took a while for the developers to realize how to reach their core audience before they let their own ideas screw up the game.
Well yes, but the basic gameplay is kinda the most important part. You already have a targeted audience who play, those who dislike the basic gameplay (those in general not part of you targeted audience) will leave the game. You will have less expectations to manage and those expectations are in general in line with your product. Still the developer should let itself be inspired by those suggestions, not let the development be lead by it. The majority is simply not always right! Things that might sound fine do not have to be fun at all or does not fit the vision they have set out.
Yet every game tries to give us A-Z. If a game gave me A, B, C and a different game gave you X, Y, Z, we'd both be happy.
This is where the greed and poor design arguments stem from. If games would pick niches they'd be set for years but thst target everyone and always fall.
I suspect many of the problems are caused by publishers/investors attempting to micro manage process cycles, sequences that they really have no clue about the operation of. Especially, when it comes to cutting corners and not allowing sufficient time for QA and polish.
They are, after all the ones with the internal power to cause such changes. Impatient players can howl to their hearts content, and not really have an impact on such things. This is a good over view of the gaming industry and the general gaming population. There are exceptions, but over all... ^^
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-LE0ycgkBQ#t=17
But its shiny! <face palm> ^^
I will stop bitching when...
1. I see a boxed copy of the game or read the games website and they list things that are not even in the game...
AoC was a culprit listing several things on the box that were not in the game at release or even now...
2. When devs ask for the opinion of the community and actually use that information.
How many polls can we have where at the end the devs are like, yea, we dont like that we are doing what we wanted in the first place. Wtf even have the poll. Dont waste my time if you do not actually care.
3. Hype, Hype, Hype
Warhammer is a good example. That game was constantly hyped up. What a huge let down. Its one thing to tell the community what your game entails and its another thing to constantly brag about something and then not deliver.
4. Kickstarter
Dont ask for crowd funding unless you are ready to be critiqued. If you beg for cash then expect repercussions.
Another industry apologist?!? Here on MMORPG.com?!? Inconceivable! If anyone has an "overindulged ego" it is those IN the industry.
...(even though most wont/don't understand why such creative or design based decisions are made...
Oh it's the consumers fault that their product sucks..ok I get it. I have been hearing the same crap since Star Wars Galaxies NGE was launched. How many more times will the industry and it's shills blame the customer for their gross incompetence? It has yet to resonate with the audience BUT they keep using it ( apparently the investors actually believe it).
The industry has dropped the ball more times than is countable. The things that come out of the corporate echo chambers are just bad products. The consumer AND the investors have been getting screwed by these charlatans. It's never just a single thing that went wrong it's always multiple problems. Then we hear later from those who were in beta, "we told them , they didn't care". How many of you have tried to do the right thing, and went to the official forums , posted issues and potential solutions only to be attacked by "fanbois" and ignored by the management, and finally giving up and moving on. Then , when the game fails , those same people are confused to the WHY of it all (yes i am talking to you WAR ). The WHY being , idiots listened to other idiots because the latter idiots told the former idiots how wonderful their steaming turd of a game was even though all evidence pointed to the contrary.
The only way to 'fix" the industry , is show it some tough love. Don't buy a game until you see game footage and have some idea how the game mechanics are. Don't fall for movie shorts and hype, have HIGH EXPECTATIONS and standards and make them earn your money.
Without any examples of what you consider unreasonable, it's hard to judge if your expectations for expectations are reasonable.
Or we can be responsible consumers and demand a better product.
BTW, I see far too many people complain or give input on the way consumers use their voice and tell them that they shouldn't, worse yet, in a genre that has been stagnant with copycat games over the last 10 years and to top off that madness dare to say that those expecting better have unreasonable expectations.
As if it isn't possible not to make the same crap over and over again.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
I personally feel the fault lies in the middle. Developers make the game they are told to make with x amount of money. The financial backers from said game say this is what you will do. The vocal minority scream this is what we want, this is what we want. Financial backers say ok if this is what they want put this in. Developer argues it doesn't fit into this game. Financial backer says you make the game you are told to make. Vocal minority yells we are the voice of the community and it is poorly implemented. Developer goes to financial backer says we need more time to put these in, and get everything else done. Financial backer says no you will stop everything else, and your deadline is pushed forward to compete with the other game coming out. We will release what you are working on in patches, or an expansion. Vocal minority comes to mmorpg.com, and rages the game does not have everything it promised. The game does not flow, and seems to have no identity.
Unfortunately there is proof from many "failed" games to show this. Those things in a game that just don't seem to fit. Games that seem to be several other games mashed into 1 game. The days of a school kid with a dream in his his/her head bringing us something we haven't seen before are gone. This is true from video games, to music, to movies. It is mostly rehashed garbage following a formula of what has proven to be successful. It is a cycle that is repeated through business. It takes an extraordinary circumstance to change that. Everquest, DAoC, AC, thousands thought this is great. WoW millions flocked. Do you put your money with the millions of people, or the thousands of people?
There is a saying that says be careful what you ask for, you just might get it. For several years we have received just that. A ton of "poorly thought out" games. Why? Because between financial backers, and the community the original vision of the game gets completely altered. I am by no means saying that developers are completely innocent, but I don't think any developer, or person wants their name attached to a steaming pile of garbage.
<img src='http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000031cd29/signature.png'></img>;
<img src='http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000031cd29/signature.png'></img>;
Lets make one thing clear. Critique is BIG. Its very important we are critical of games, that we can bring up points about its flaws and what is wrong about a game. That is how games IMPROVE by having the flaws pointed out rather then ignored in some sort of fanboi bliss.
That being said... yes... people have rediculous unrealistic expectations as well. Some people have some crazy idea that you can say "Have 1,000 people running in the same open area and have the game play smoothly" or have a "Fully sandbox world were everything can be changed and will keep some sort of order" both completely impossible to handle and would never work as 'good' as their minds imagine it. Like a big one i hear is "No instances" yet people expect the content to somehow be challenging when anyone can run in killing that stuff.
People just don't understand (whether ignoring logic or not understanding coding/networking/system limitations) just how things work and just what CAN work. People demand for stuff that just wouldn't work, and set expectations stuff will work in some fantasy manor that just isn't plausible.
This seems to come from a perspective point that: Most developers affect their decisions about making cuts and including features of a game based on what players demands are? And, that encouraging them as apposed to chastising them will result in better games?
...It won't. Most developers are working for a studio which is a subsidy of a larger company or is contracted by a larger company. They have a concept for a game and they essentially lobby publishers for the money to make it happen. Part of the agreement they might reach with an interested publisher is:
a) That the game effectively belongs to the publisher (as the publisher's insurance for funding the project).
b) That the developers must meet predetermined milestones on a set timeline.
Trying to appeal to developers doesn't do much. They could use all the morale support they can get. But, it doesn't actually do anything to make the game they end up releasing better. The issue of a less then stellar, or far inferior to what it could have been game being released has to do primarily with publishers. From the publisher telling the developers to scrap certain areas of a project because it won't fit the time line. To the publishers treating bug testers basically like refuse (testers have absolutely no job security, no rights, and often are cheated out of what they deserve). Down to publishers cutting a team of developers all together out of the process and handing the remaining work over to a team who doesn't understand the project.
Developers often need publishers to keep them organized. If they had no one to tell them no, they would never actually get anything done. But, publishers abuse the fact that developers can do very little on their own. If you want games to get better it's something that has to be worked on from the standpoint of keeping the publishers transparent and honest. The development side of things has it's own issues. But, most of those are given repair when you fix the publishing side of things.
Things I think you probably can do that might actually help:
- Write big publishers demanding better working conditions and actual job security for game testers.
- Write bigger and smaller publishers demanding that some proprietary rights be retained by developers.
- Ask publishers to extend publicly released deadlines and beta/alpha testing periods in the interest of quality assurance.
- Put a spotlight on publisher conduct (good and bad) in what ways you can (you tube about it, blog about it, submit articles to gaming magazines)
- Make celebrities out of the actual game developers, testers, writers etc. Show off the work of people who deserve to have their work shown (if they have open recognition in the gaming community it's harder for publishers to treat them poorly and get away with it).
- Stop paying for things sight-unseen. pre-orders, founders packs, and basically giving people your money to make the games they already have the money to make only serves to monetize the public interest (and make what you want academic - weather you individually want it or not), and give them more security so that they get more comfortable and take less risks. Pay for what is made and released. not for what is promised.
- Give more support to games where the developers for them are the publishers as well, such as private games studios and crowd funded/indie projects (doing this will tell the industry that we don't want making games and selling games to be handled by different parties. That we want it all in-house. If more developers are actual employees of the publishers they are working with. it will mean a) we get fuller experienced, more educated developers whom b) are happier with greater job security - because companies owe employees good treatment and owe to themselves, having the best employees).
Thank you. You put this extremely well.
<img src='http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000031cd29/signature.png'></img>;
I wanted to be more specific then just posting the image of fred from scooby-doo saying "I don't even..." in caption. Thank you for reading and not just posting a tldr, lol.
One more thing you can do actually...Never again condemn your own ability to make a difference. this industry is funded ultimately by the end consumer. You hold the power. and wanting better for your money is never an unreasonable expectation.
I don't know how you do things wherever you are but in the real world customers want something of worth for their money. MMO's don't have anymore unrealistic expectations then any other product. For cryin out loud WoW is still by far the most popular game and it also happens to have some of the worst graphics so the expectations can't be that high =P
It seems like having a game launch that doesn't still feel like it's in beta is too much to ask these days.