money grab machine

Umbrood · December 2013

And lets not forget, if this crashes, that would be an epic crash, even more so then swtor, because that was just really sad.

The drama, the forum warfare, the headlines?

Oh man, that in itself will be worth my 75 bucks.

I would rather see them succeed of course, but in the end, there will be entertainment value regardless.

History in the making, and who does not want to be part of that?

As a spectator at the very least.

Quazal.A · December 2013

The biggest annoyance for me.

Can we stop calling it a kickstarter... This stop being a kickstarter long time ago !.

Fact is you have to now give directly to him, / his company etc.

This is simply a gaming company charity, nothing more nothing less,

In fact I would also argue that this failed the kickstarters own rules..

Rule

Projects cannot resell items or offer rewards not produced by the project or its creator.

I see lots of rewards being offered that do NOT fall into this category.

Fact is the guy has collected some serious mulah , and bear in mind he original KS was for 500k he is now sitting pretty on $34 mill which should make him a game that straight out box should be ready to play , The fact is his asking for 500k seems like it was start of the 'scam'

I wish him good luck, If people want to give their hard earnt / inherited money to him more power to you, Its your cash its your choice, but this will have 1 of 2 outcomes

1 - He releases a game it works , great good for you, pat yourself on back, will game be around in 5-10yrs , I seriosuly doubt it, but only time will tell

2 - He fails deliver anything that he promises, this is my own opinion and reasons are below.

When your asking for money to do something, then in my opinion you need to provide something as proof? What has the guy provided so far??? A box that you can walk around..

In stead of making up items that people will get if they give him more money, how about giving the player something that can use NOW!

How is all this making stuff going to get added to game if the core game isn't ready now??? Surely throw all the 'nice' things after release say something like

"donate for 500bill" and on update 1 you will get a pink hairy ball bag - Dont try and offer this with reelase, because each item they are offering it is merley making the development time longer.

To me all they are doing is dangling people with carrots, and if you follow carrot eventually you will fall off cliff..

william0532 · December 2013

Originally posted by Quazal.A
Snip for brevity.

They've offered a lot more than just a box. They've offered ships, inside that box that you can interact with. Dog fighting module is coming out soon.

I really don't believe like you do that this game will end up vapor ware, with the fans being left empty handed. What I do think, is;

Fans will feel empty handed because x feature they dreamed up in their own little heads won't be met(this is seen with every game though, and the effect will only be magnified for those that pledge tons to the game)

The most disappointing aspect about the pledge campaigns, is the shady tactics used to milk those whales for all their worth.

1. The amount of pledgers isn't increasing exponentially, but the total is. That's because they are milking the **** out of current supporters.

2. They use class warfare to propagate funds; they list your backer status(what ships, and titles you've pledged for), they allow non pledgers to post, but their avatars are grayed out(easiest way to discriminate is through the use of color, worked in the 50's right...). If a none backer posts a question, i.e "how will instancing work", they are met with insults about them not supporting the game, or being below the rest of the community.

The above is exasperated by a "subscribers only" den where they can post without interuption by the "unclean" people in general forums, yet they pop into general chat to berate and talk down too new posters.

The community there is elistist ****. All of them? of course not, but you should be judged by those who represent you the loudest. Now, if those ****bags that post nonsense about backer status were met with criticism from their peers, and action by the mods, than that would be different, yet the majority just let the loud mouths do the speaking for them, so their placation makes them just as much of a piece of **** as the crap posters.

3. reselling same **** different day. Exclusive doesn't mean the same thing their as it does everywhere else. Anyone who's remotely followed the game knows what I'm on about, so I'll let it go. No need to elaborate.

So honestly, I expect CIG to make a great game, but the cost through their actions is going to be hefty in the long run in my opinion.

Volkmar · December 2013

Originally posted by william0532
Originally posted by Quazal.A
Snip for brevity.

They've offered a lot more than just a box. They've offered ships, inside that box that you can interact with. Dog fighting module is coming out soon.

I really don't believe like you do that this game will end up vapor ware, with the fans being left empty handed. What I do think, is;

Fans will feel empty handed because x feature they dreamed up in their own little heads won't be met(this is seen with every game though, and the effect will only be magnified for those that pledge tons to the game)

The most disappointing aspect about the pledge campaigns, is the shady tactics used to milk those whales for all their worth.

1. The amount of pledgers isn't increasing exponentially, but the total is. That's because they are milking the **** out of current supporters.

2. They use class warfare to propagate funds; they list your backer status(what ships, and titles you've pledged for), they allow non pledgers to post, but their avatars are grayed out(easiest way to discriminate is through the use of color, worked in the 50's right...). If a none backer posts a question, i.e "how will instancing work", they are met with insults about them not supporting the game, or being below the rest of the community.

The above is exasperated by a "subscribers only" den where they can post without interuption by the "unclean" people in general forums, yet they pop into general chat to berate and talk down too new posters.

The community there is elistist ****. All of them? of course not, but you should be judged by those who represent you the loudest. Now, if those ****bags that post nonsense about backer status were met with criticism from their peers, and action by the mods, than that would be different, yet the majority just let the loud mouths do the speaking for them, so their placation makes them just as much of a piece of **** as the crap posters.

3. reselling same **** different day. Exclusive doesn't mean the same thing their as it does everywhere else. Anyone who's remotely followed the game knows what I'm on about, so I'll let it go. No need to elaborate.

So honestly, I expect CIG to make a great game, but the cost through their actions is going to be hefty in the long run in my opinion.

2. Wait... what??

The black and white avatars for non-backers were just introduced.. like a week ago. Also most games do not even allow you on their forums if you are not a customer, so why should they? And still you can log in AND post as a dude that contributed 0 dollars to Star Citizen. The tag, the titles and the colors are a boon to people that gave them money or do you think the only thing backers should get is a kick in the balls?

Same thing for subscribers. THEY contribute more to Star Citizen by paying monthly, why should they not get something in return? I'm not one, so I cannot say what is going on in their forums, but damn I have no idea what the heck are you saying about subscribers coming down and start "berating" the others, eh?? Just because someone claiming to be a subscriber is acting like an idiot in chatroll does not means all subscribers or even any subscribers are like that, mmmh? Idiots exist in all classes and groups, I am sure you know that?

I'm also sure there are non-subscriber going in the chat loudmouthing those "elitist" subscribers and how dirty they are, the glass is transparent, you know? Should I then start thinking that all non-subscribers are idiots too? Let's stop generalizing, all right?

3. I'm not sure what you mean.. but if you speak of the limited ship then... the Limited ships were "Limited", not Exclusives. Plus it had been made very clear from DAY ONE that ALL ships can be acquired IN GAME, so nothing is exclusive.

As for what they give us: More than any other kickstarter I have even see.

First of all, when the KS started, they did have a in-game trailer showing off some impressive stuff, second off, they have released several trailers of in-game footage, the hangar module and they keep weekly shows where they tell us of the progress of the game. NAME another kickstarter/crowd funding game that does the same, I dare you.

From my point of view, this is no different than any other Cwordfunded project, they often have nothing but ideas to offer too or a video at best. Only some rare cases have something more like a demo or such. So if you are against crowdfunding in general, so be it, that's cool, but it is by no means just Star Citizen being as such.

Gdemami · December 2013

Kickstarter is money grab by definition - you get nothing back but words for your money, easy money with no liability.

One has to admit that CR is very good at it though.

morbuskabis · December 2013

Originally posted by Gdemami

Kickstarter is money grab by definition - you get nothing back but words for your money, easy money with no liability.One has to admit that CR is very good at it though.

Yep and the world is a disc...

Gdemami · December 2013

Originally posted by morbuskabisYep and the world is a disc...

There are people who actually believe it, just like there are people who belive Chris Roberts.

Same thing make both cases possible. Human beings are amazing.

Muke · December 2013

Originally posted by apanz3r
It looks like their main concern is to grab more money altough they allredy reached any goal they proposed.

The "limited available" ships return again for a week etc.

Bottomline : consume with moderation, don;t fall in their marketing trap.

newsflash: companies never have enough money.

Gdemami · December 2013

Originally posted by Muke

newsflash: companies never have enough money.

No one has

exile01 · December 2013

I find it pretty interesting. They actually reached their goals long time ago but they keep coming with new ones. With every new starship they get like 4mil dollars I mean they have all the assets to make a new starship in less then 4 days. How does this work equal 4mil?

Despite that, you see after 33mil only a universe with build in physics and some spaceships. Even that fps battlesystem is not done yet.

Did you guys read what their next goal is? "TO SMOOTH THE FPS EXPERIENCE"

with a half brain you could ask yourself, why didnt they put that already in or into consideration when they added that feature`?

Im not against the support the people give- but milking people for tiny shit they could add within a week- and ask for that millions- is something that really bothers me.

Some people lost track to real life.

If they keep going on with this mentality- they will reach 80mil dollars with 50% of the game done.

Hairysun · December 2013

Originally posted by exile01

I find it pretty interesting. They actually reached their goals long time ago but they keep coming with new ones. With every new starship they get like 4mil dollars I mean they have all the assets to make a new starship in less then 4 days. How does this work equal 4mil?

Despite that, you see after 33mil only a universe with build in physics and some spaceships. Even that fps battlesystem is not done yet.

Did you guys read what their next goal is? "TO SMOOTH THE FPS EXPERIENCE"

with a half brain you could ask yourself, why didnt they put that already in or into consideration when they added that feature`?

Im not against the support the people give- but milking people for tiny shit they could add within a week- and ask for that millions- is something that really bothers me.

Some people lost track to real life.

If they keep going on with this mentality- they will reach 80mil dollars with 50% of the game done.

I believe this has gone quite a bit farther than even they were expecting. Almost to the point of "Dammit, we've got to come up with another stretch goal." The precedent of stretch goals was established right from the start over a year ago for the kick starter. I can imagine the out cry if they suddenly said no more stretch goals.

~Hairysun

morbuskabis · December 2013

Originally posted by Hairysun
Originally posted by exile01

I find it pretty interesting. They actually reached their goals long time ago but they keep coming with new ones. With every new starship they get like 4mil dollars I mean they have all the assets to make a new starship in less then 4 days. How does this work equal 4mil? Despite that, you see after 33mil only a universe with build in physics and some spaceships. Even that fps battlesystem is not done yet. Did you guys read what their next goal is? "TO SMOOTH THE FPS EXPERIENCE" with a half brain you could ask yourself, why didnt they put that already in or into consideration when they added that feature`? Im not against the support the people give- but milking people for tiny shit they could add within a week- and ask for that millions- is something that really bothers me. Some people lost track to real life. If they keep going on with this mentality- they will reach 80mil dollars with 50% of the game done.

I believe this has gone quite a bit farther than even they were expecting. Almost to the point of "Dammit, we've got to come up with another stretch goal." The precedent of stretch goals was established right from the start over a year ago for the kick starter. I can imagine the out cry if they suddenly said no more stretch goals.

~Hairysun

The "streach goal" is only something psychological. They won't add any new features to the game. It just there to ceep the community happy, so they can write about it or speculate on it in the official form. This keeps the masses calm and doesn't hurt any one.

NO one will buy a new ship or a mousepad to get us to the next streach goal. They buy the new ships because they like the look, stats or any other reason they think it is worht to spend money on the project.

And yes I belive they never expected to be so successful with the whole crowed funding, but why not take the money when ppl are throwing it at you?

LeGrosGamer · December 2013

If it weren't for my 8 years on EVE-Online I'd most likely give it a shot. I'll be waitting for Novus Aeterno instead which I already backed on KickStarter

And the whole funding thing is just fishy, they come up with something new to fund every week or so, lol. I'd be careful , might become P2W

Once you go on the greed path, there is no coming back.

RefMinor · December 2013

Elite: Dangerous has released its Alpha already and it's Kickstarter was around the same time.

strangepowers · December 2013

Originally posted by apanz3r
It looks like their main concern is to grab more money altough they allredy reached any goal they proposed.The "limited available" ships return again for a week etc. Bottomline : consume with moderation, don;t fall in their marketing trap.

What is the purpose of any for profit company? That's right make profit...

Look dude, life is not that complicated, there is nothing wrong with it and if you don't like it feel free to avoid it.

Nobody needs your subjective "warnings."

Wizardry · December 2013

Originally posted by Clerigo
Originally posted by apanz3r
It looks like their main concern is to grab more money altough they allredy reached any goal they proposed.

The "limited available" ships return again for a week etc.

Bottomline : consume with moderation, don;t fall in their marketing trap.

This is one of those threads that sould be locked imediately.

You give no valuable information whatsoever, you make an accusation without any kind of sense, you clearly show no knowledge of the project itself since its a crowd funded project and RSI made it clear from the start what people were having or not for each goal reached and with the increasing revenue more goals were added, and you come here saying something like that about a high quality project geting 21 millions fan based when there are AAA tittes out there spending 10 or 20 times more that dont fit in your perspective of things.

Well you have already considered the OP's opinion as baseless,yet you are already assuming this game will be top notch and money well spent?

The problem the OP is talking about ,not only stems from misleading NAIVE people into giving them free hand outs,you actually are not funding anything because you really do NOT have a say.

When people or businesses back a project,they DO have a say and perhaps the final say or a very big one,it is only the free handouts that are ripping people off.

There is always going to be the argument that it is YOUR money and you can do as you please but it does ruin the entire genre and make up of game design if the MAJORITY hand over free money.

If devs thought this was super easy cake,they would ALL do it and that would leave the smarter consumers that use at least some better judgement BEFORE handing over money,out in the cold and left out.

IOs that what we really want for this entire industry,all developers asking for free handouts and those that give them more money get more perks?it sets a REAL BAD standard for morals and gaming which is SUPPOSE to be about FUN ,NOT money.

That is why we are the consumers looking for FUN and they are the business looking for money,we should not be funding THEIR business with absolutely no guarantees what so ever.

It really baffles me as to why all of a sudden consumers want to hand over money for FREE,do you feel like it is YOUR game or something now,because it most certainly is not.

IU bet the same people who hand over money to rich businessmen like this would scoff at helping the homeless or abused or any needy family or person,as i said it shows poor morals.

Redemp · December 2013

Thanks to everyone who shares in my cynical impression of the Crowd Funding trend, I really thought I was the last of a dieing breed who only spent money on actual products or those which had safeguards for my money. I've said it before, as a game I hope SC does well, but I can't help but hope the entire crowd funding system comes crashing down. To those clamoring that the reason for the success of this system is stagnation in the "genres" I disagree, it's success is due to the guillibility and lack of fiscal responsibility of current gamers. If I invest in a project, then I am a share holder .... otherwise it's a twisted charity. It's such a mind boggling system, imagine it : Why should we take any risk when developing a product, let's make potential consumers bear the risk, it's brilliant! Shame ... shame on the state of consumerism.

FinalFikus · December 2013

Originally posted by Redemp
Thanks to everyone who shares in my cynical impression of the Crowd Funding trend, I really thought I was the last of a dieing breed who only spent money on actual products or those which had safeguards for my money. I've said it before, as a game I hope SC does well, but I can't help but hope the entire crowd funding system comes crashing down. To those clamoring that the reason for the success of this system is stagnation in the "genres" I disagree, it's success is due to the guillibility and lack of fiscal responsibility of current gamers. If I invest in a project, then I am a share holder .... otherwise it's a twisted charity. It's such a mind boggling system, imagine it : Why should we take any risk when developing a product, let's make potential consumers bear the risk, it's brilliant! Shame ... shame on the state of consumerism.

If it crashes that's part of the process. These are games and customers no one else wanted. Anyone who wants the money can try other ways. Im sure people would rather purchase a working game, but that wouldn't be profitable enough.

I guess the whales can be kings with kick starter instead of hardcore shoppers they are now. The state of mmorpgs and PC gaming is a direct result of hardcore gamers turning to KS instead of companies that don't want their business.

Quazal.A · December 2013

*sarcrasm alert*

what all us cynics are forgetting is that the Lead dev invented space and space travel and spaceships and everything

or that what his fanboys would have us believe

by the way im starting a new crowd sourcing, im after 1.5bill to make this uber game, and my skills include copying a program out of the spectrum magazine in 1982 and it EVEN WORKED (nb you have to have tried this to understand the saracasm at end)

please send any donation to [email protected]

VincerKaden · December 2013

Whew! Close call, OP. Thanks for the warning. Any advice on time shares?

Volkmar · December 2013

Originally posted by Wizardry
Originally posted by Clerigo
Originally posted by apanz3r
It looks like their main concern is to grab more money altough they allredy reached any goal they proposed.

The "limited available" ships return again for a week etc.

Bottomline : consume with moderation, don;t fall in their marketing trap.

This is one of those threads that sould be locked imediately.

You give no valuable information whatsoever, you make an accusation without any kind of sense, you clearly show no knowledge of the project itself since its a crowd funded project and RSI made it clear from the start what people were having or not for each goal reached and with the increasing revenue more goals were added, and you come here saying something like that about a high quality project geting 21 millions fan based when there are AAA tittes out there spending 10 or 20 times more that dont fit in your perspective of things.

Well you have already considered the OP's opinion as baseless,yet you are already assuming this game will be top notch and money well spent?

The problem the OP is talking about ,not only stems from misleading NAIVE people into giving them free hand outs,you actually are not funding anything because you really do NOT have a say.

When people or businesses back a project,they DO have a say and perhaps the final say or a very big one,it is only the free handouts that are ripping people off.

There is always going to be the argument that it is YOUR money and you can do as you please but it does ruin the entire genre and make up of game design if the MAJORITY hand over free money.

If devs thought this was super easy cake,they would ALL do it and that would leave the smarter consumers that use at least some better judgement BEFORE handing over money,out in the cold and left out.

IOs that what we really want for this entire industry,all developers asking for free handouts and those that give them more money get more perks?it sets a REAL BAD standard for morals and gaming which is SUPPOSE to be about FUN ,NOT money.

That is why we are the consumers looking for FUN and they are the business looking for money,we should not be funding THEIR business with absolutely no guarantees what so ever.

It really baffles me as to why all of a sudden consumers want to hand over money for FREE,do you feel like it is YOUR game or something now,because it most certainly is not.

IU bet the same people who hand over money to rich businessmen like this would scoff at helping the homeless or abused or any needy family or person,as i said it shows poor morals.

It baffles you?

AND you read MMORPG.com?

How come?

Haven't you see the hundreds of thread all complaining about X or Y? How the MMO genre is dead and no game really is good for them?

I'm sure you have! Then you should see how this crowdfunding is NOT baffling, because it is built on making a game that the people choose instead of Business Suit #6.

Simply put, people choose with their wallets and they always have. Now you can choose which game gets made instead of which game, already made, chosen for you by others, to buy. Is that really so baffling?

Finally, a part of it is surely the development process and the possibility of influencing it. Yes, not all are interested into that and it is debatable how much one person can do, but it is also true that regular posters get noticed, especially in the early phases, so it is not completely impossible either.

Yes, there will be disappointment and yes, some projects will fail and give you nothing, but isn't that much better than have NO saying in what gets made at all? Isn't that better than having focus groups, of which you are never part of, chosen by people in suits that know 0 of gaming, deciding what game is made?

Clearly many thinks that is better than buying a finished product...

And think about it, it is not such a sure thing when you buy a finished product either, isn't it? How many times have you heard of people whining of a bad game they bought because Reviewer X told it was good? You can say that at least those people have something tangible in their hands they can play, but is that really what they wanted in the first place?

Gdemami · December 2013

Originally posted by Volkmar

Yes, there will be disappointment and yes, some projects will fail and give you nothing, but isn't that much better than have NO saying in what gets made at all?

No, it is no better, in fact it is worse.

Normally, you pay for product you find worth the money, product you enjoy. This sole fact pushes the developers to produce something you will like, since that is only way they can get money from you.

With KS though, this formula gets broken. You no longer pay for product because there is no product yet thus there is no worry whether you will like the product or not, not to say there might be as well no product at all, they get paid regardless.

Crowdfunding encourages very bad business habbits. You throw money at people, money those people are not liable for.

FinalFikus · December 2013

There is no money in space sims anyway. Just ask the experts. They have a great track record.

The normal game development process is already broken. more and more people believe KS has a better chance of producing a game they may enjoy than current PC game developers. which is probably accurate.

Volkmar · December 2013

Originally posted by Gdemami

Originally posted by Volkmar

Yes, there will be disappointment and yes, some projects will fail and give you nothing, but isn't that much better than have NO saying in what gets made at all?

No, it is no better, in fact it is worse.

Normally, you pay for product you find worth the money, product you enjoy. This sole fact pushes the developers to produce something you will like, since that is only way they can get money from you.

With KS though, this formula gets broken. You no longer pay for product because there is no product yet thus there is no worry whether you will like the product or not, not to say there might be as well no product at all, they get paid regardless.

Crowdfunding encourages very bad business habbits. You throw money at people, money those people are not liable for.

Of course they are liable for it.

If they f*** it up, do you think their next project will have the same level of commitment? Of course not!

Same thing happens to a developer team whose publisher financed game fails to deliver, they already got paid and now they get fired or the studio is shut down.

The only thing that change is who gives them the money and who tells them what game to make. Instead of having to convince a Publisher to finance them, they have to convince the public.

Now it seems clear to me that there can be great deal of difference between convincing one (you need to show your project is financially viable) and the others (you need to show you will make a great game).

Gdemami · December 2013

Originally posted by Volkmar
Of course they are liable for it.If they f*** it up, do you think their next project will have the same level of commitment? Of course not!Same thing happens to a developer team whose publisher financed game fails to deliver, they already got paid and now they get fired or the studio is shut down.The only thing that change is who gives them the money and who tells them what game to make. Instead of having to convince a Publisher to finance them, they have to convince the public.Now it seems clear to me that there can be great deal of difference between convincing one (you need to show your project is financially viable) and the others (you need to show you will make a great game).

There is a big difference.

If your 40M business shuts down, you owe your investor 40M.
If your 40M donation KS shuts down, you can keep your new sports car and west coast summer house(bought for money donated of course).

Getting an investment means you are liable for money someone has invested into your company, it is a legal business contract of 2 parties.

Would you pay upfront for a new house without any possibility to raise a legal complaint in case the house does not meet promised qualities or is not built at all?

I guess you wouldn't.

There is indeed a difference between talking to potential investor or potential donee. It is where KS bad business promotion starts - the funding being based on non-business related qualifiers.

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