When I played WoW in Vanilla I felt the game was lazy. Nearly all the dungeons were identical, the classes quite standard and the community abyssmal.
Not sure if serious on the highlighted parts...
This is my opinion. I would call it ironically typical that while being branded a propaganda troll, the majority of you fit the same bill in your defense. I did not make it to end-game, the content I experienced was not satisfactory in my opinion. This does not make me a troll. To clarify other remarks as to the definition of the word abyssmal. That does not mean under-populated. It means low in quality.
I've been players mmo's for well over a decade now. I've played nearly ever single one on the market. As of late I've devoted most of my time to LOTRO, and while I'm enjoying it, the intensity of the payshop and the lack of community is becoming dreary. Not to mention the endgame is apparently atrocious, however not being there yet, I wouldn't really know. My favorite for years was Lineage 2, but NcSoft has shit on that game like they never wanted it to succeed in the first place.
Now to the point, World of Warcraft has the largest following, hate and community. When I played WoW in Vanilla I felt the game was lazy. Nearly all the dungeons were identical, the classes quite standard and the community abyssmal. Finding a genuine human to converse with was, difficult to say the least,
Are we talking about World of warcraft? I highly doubt you played Vanilla wow, because that is the most absurdly wrong thing I have ever heard. The community was obscenely massive and players were everywhere. You couldn't go 2 minutes no matter where you were without running into another player. The classes were diverse, albeit their talents were either bland, or over powered. The dungeons were not identical in any way. Blackrock Depths, completely different from Maraudon, Dire Maul, completely different from Zul'Farrak or Gnomeregan or Sunken Temple. You are so gravely mistaken here it's insane. I felt that this game was insanely polished and well made. The development team was top notch and everything was very well done. Sure, there were some bugs and things would glitch out at times, but what mmo doesn't have this sort of problem in it's infancy?
and the idea of cutting the games community in half by obscuring cross-race language, was a interesting but useless feature.
kek
I felt there were design changes that did not aid what I wanted in an MMO. I have not REALLY given WoW a shot in a very long time, since pre-cataclysm, and I have never had the wear-with-all to make it to the endgame.
I have done End-Game in every aspect of WoW, from vanilla running Blackwing Lair, Zul'Gurub, Molten Core etc, the Burning Crusade (Didn't get to run Sunwell), made Wratch of Lich King my bitch, and ran a lot of end game Cata as well before I ended up quitting about a month before the actual Deathwing patch went live.
What I've come here to ask is, what keeps you playing? Why WoW? Why is the community SO large and devoted? What features do you like and dislike? I want to love this game, mostly because, I want an mmo with a large and decent community. But I find the game to be slow, tedious and as if I'm in daycare. Putting my character in front of a cannon to left click at ships, as if I'm supposed to be enthralled by that lazy spectacle. It's, honestly, insulting and cringe-worthy.
Unfortunately I cannot add to this, as I do not play. I lost interest in the game during Cataclysm. So many aspects just turned me off, and the design and game changes they made just killed it for me. It was glorious, I had a good run for the 4-5 years or how ever long it was, but I believe it's time is over for me.
I want to play WoW, but more importantly I wish I could truly enjoy the experience and appreciate it with those of you out there who see something I do not. I want to know what server's are mature, if any. I want to know if the end-game is meaningful and not just a slough through dungeons to get rare boots. Tell me what the substance is that keeps one invested, because I cannot find it, but as a true MMO fan, I see little other interesting options to spend my time with.
Thanks all.
I think it may be time for you to quit man. Once you stop enjoying it, why continue to play at all?
Perhaps you're right, it may be best for me to take a break or even abandon the genre. I appreciate you keeping it intelligent and focused despite disagreeing with many of my points, as others failed to do. I believe I'll avoid MMO's for a short while and see if the passion returns. Thanks.
You mentioned how Lotro has a lack of community but I've never noticed this issue, though it has been a few months since I've played around in it. I found a compelling aspect of Lotro to be the helpful, kind, and role playing enthused community. To follow up your notes on Lotro with the statement that Lineage 2 was your favorite just before calling WoW Vanilla lazy and repetitive is puzzling because that game was a grind fest wrapped in beautiful graphics.
The most popular games might -just- not fit your play style. I found them adding "daycare" quests as you've called it a nice break from the basic kill x/x, collect x, and messenger quests. That's not lazy in my opinion I think it was intuitive and unlike the build many other mmorpg's have limited themselves to.
WoW was my second MMORPG, right after FF11. I attained the game in the December of its release (so 2004?) or 2005. WoW has claimed ~83% of the USD I've spent on all games including console.
Vanilla WoW sucked me in because I had three friends to show me around, I was so ignorant I got "stuck" in the bottom of Ironforge. The character models were unlike anything I had seen in all my consoles, each quite unique from the other. The idea of being a badass shape changing elf suckered my teenage heart and I jumped at the chance. What kept me leveling was how questing gave you rewards, including new pieces of gear and items you ate for buffs. My favorite part was "kiting", I could MOVE while I was attacking something and this made combat feel dynamic to me. I felt in control of my fate. My first time in a PvP enabled area it was so infuriating getting ganked by ?? opposing faction, oh how I couldn't wait to get high enough level to run around doing the same thing! I loved how when I got tired of doing quests I could pick up a fishing pole and then use those fish in cooking, I could still play but I wasn't forced to do any one thing. Gathering a group up for dungeons in trade chat, having it wipe multiple times but you all invested so much time it was like no one minded the challenge we'd be in a dungeon for an hour together just to kill those bosses for new gear we knew we'd replace soon anyways. Then when I finally hit cap I was able to join raids, I didn't have a guild so I'd join PuGs hosted by 10 core players from one guild and they'd hold raffles. I purchased enough pieces that I was finally ready to join a raiding guild and eventually I was the person organizing those raids, I was a core raider. Granted I had to schedule my play time, lose out on weekends, and spend most of my time in Vent but that's what I loved doing it's what kept my enthused. AV battlegrounds were a blast, sometimes lasting hours. The grind for my mount slipped right past me.
Then Burning Crusade came out, I was still resubbing to the game so it was rather heartbreaking vendoring all those raiding purples I worked so hard for but I was excited for a whole new area to explore. I remember the graphics were unlike anything we saw in Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms. The floating masses of debris in Outlands made me feel so small again, just like that first day getting lost in Ironforge. I stuck around but I never got that desire to raid again, it may have just been a lack of time. The rep grinds for mounts weren't my thing, I've never been one for direct grinding though. I do remember being excited for them to introduce cooking/fishing dailies, it felt like the sub professions had the tiniest light shed on them. EoTs was introduced as a battleground and by this time the one-five hour battles of Hillsbrad Foothills were LONG gone. You could still find some good world pvp in Outlands, a lot of the time it was a group of "bored capped levels" griefing anyone trying to level. I ended up hitting cap on three of my characters hoping I'd reignite that passion I once had but I cancelled my sub.
When Wotlk came out I resubbed and I felt like I just sludged through leveling. Obviously they had to extend the amount of experience to level up but it was really feeling repetitive by now. The last rep grind I did was with Shattered Sun Offensive, which wasn't half as bad as gaining one level in Wotlk (this coming from a loather of grinding). Well, I made it to cap and Dalaran was really nice. They added all these interesting achievements, I specifically remember crowding around the fountain for collecting the individual coins via: fishing. They did a good job of making you want to work on your professions including introductions of that flying carpet or the engineer copter, it was cool of them I thought. I hadn't seen many games where you could utilize your professions for something other people didn't get to glorify themselves with. Once again I wasn't able to reignite my desire to work with people how I was in Vanilla, in fact I felt like I was better off doing things alone.
The WoW community started rubbing me the wrong way, many (not all) players were full of spite or scarred from "ninjas" in the past. I don't know why the game appears to attract these types of people.
When Cataclysm came out I felt like it was of an update, something telling me "Hey were going to do something you're going to want to stick around for". The zones and leveling felt a lot like Wotlk, for me at least. Once MoP came out I was excited for a new race, we hadn't had one in awhile. I thought the way Blizzard approached questing had taken a positive turn, since Wotlk they were introducing the temporary vehicle quests. They were doing a good job of neatly wrapping the reputation grinds in a pretty package. My Alliance dominated server was tough to level on because they were holding up all the towns/guards with no issue but that made it more compelling to want to struggle my way through to the cap. Unfortunately the rep grinds were everywhere, and you were overwhelmingly limited on your progression. There are some days I can spend hours playing and some weeks I can spend zero. I think it should be easier to be a "hardcore" player but they've sort of cleverly packaged it to where you have to return the next day to reap the rewards. The farm was a nice new feature, sort of like a limited player housing. Everything was instanced off, sometimes you want to play with friends but they've completed more on a story line than you have in that area forcing you to find the start of that line and complete it too. This can be exceptionally painful if while leveling you completed certain parts of that quest line then dropped it after hitting cap, you have to search the line on a wiki and then visit each npc down the line until you find your way through.
The new que system was nice for casual players but I feel like in turn it created a vast "open dead" world, most of the low level zones are close to abandoned. You don't have to even communicate with people in your group, and since it's combined between servers for faster ques you really don't need to. They lowered the low level experience requirements by a vast amount, and I was floored when they dropped the mount level requirement from 40 to 20. It's like you aren't even making people struggle anymore so they'll get that feeling of "man I can't wait until I can get that".
I recently resubbed to WoW, played it about five hours, and logged back out only to consider making the big deletion. I can tell you why I used to like WoW, which I accidently turned into a novel. Perhaps you can find the passion I had in Vanilla within these new expansions. I might even resub for their upcoming expansion just because I've invested so much time and money into the game. I think if you find a group of players that enjoy the game, and are good at it, this game can be great and full of features to devote yourself to. WoW isn't just polished, it's also one of the better balanced games (some will argue class vs. class, well that's because yes some of them are built to be stronger versus others and vice versa). The best thing about WoW is you can truly play what you enjoy it's not like many of the F2P where the lack of balance means you have to forum search builds for the one or two viable options available. Certain combinations of gems/enchantments along with your build and knowing how to play it can help define the different layers of players. I also find Blizzard's customer service to be the best I've experienced in any other game, having been to Blizzcon their games are made by gamers (and many humble ones at that).
Edit: My sub is still up and reminiscing about all that makes me want to log in.
For me it was easy, I loved WoW's classes and the diversity in them. This made running dungeons and raids with my friends fun because even though I was generally a healer, I had 4 different play styles I could heal as and they all felt differently. Once they watered them down I lost all interest in the game and have not looked back as they have strayed further away from what I personally enjoyed the most. I liked the lore and the team play early on, but that also started to fall off. I felt the game was also getting easy and the only time I enjoyed the content was the first month or 2 after a release before they rolled out the first nerfs on the group content. To this day, it still remains one of my favorite gaming experiences though I just didn't agree with their direction.
I gave up on WoW as I was tired of raiding. But mainly I couldn't find ways to make the game fun solo. It is insanely faceroll easy solo/duo there is no reason to play it that way. I also started to despise quests and being told what to do in a supposed virtual world. The world should be dangerous and you should feel like you accomplished something getting from one city to the other or even just PvE in the open world should be a challenge. WoW abandoned all challenge, excitement or complexity in the open world.
There's really only three reasons I can think of "Why I stay with WoW?" And none of them really have to do with the game (Well 4 if you count Warlords of Draenor)
1) Community - This is going to sound weird but I like the community I'm in when I play. The community at large is horrible, but my little niche of 1-200 people I play with regularly are pretty good guys (and gals). We always have things to do together, and it's very simple to get people together even if they're on a different server.
2) Commitment - I've played it so long and have done so much in it that it would seem like a waste of the last 9 years to leave and play something else. I have pretty much every achievement, every mount, every pet, every set, every class 90, etc. I just don't really feel like starting over, except in some other games that have a good story. I usually play these games along with WoW. I usually have 2 subscriptions for myself up at any given time.
3) Nothing is Better - I've played pretty much every MMO since Neverwinter Nights waaay back in 1991, and there just simply isn't any other MMO that I want to spend more time in than WoW. There might be some that look better and I'll play them along with WoW. Games like Age of Conan, Neverwinter (currently), Defiance, Final Fantasy 14 (waiting for 2.1!) all look better and have some interesting other perks, be it better story, better gameplay, better controls, etc. But overall I just think WoW is better.
4) Warlords of Draenor - Waaay back in 2003? when WoW was announced, I was so happy, and spent a lot of time theorycrafting with everyone else. I always thought back then that they should start with the backstory of the original Warcraft: Orcs & Humans. Blizzard did not go that route, but what they did do was also perfectly fine, since most of the original WoW players played at least WC3. Also Warlords of Draenor is bringing my favorite character probably in any game, lore, literature, etc. Grommash Hellscream. I've always had the name of my Orc Warrior in WoW, and any orc in any game that had them pay homage to Grommash.
When I played WoW in Vanilla I felt the game was lazy. Nearly all the dungeons were identical, the classes quite standard and the community abyssmal.
Not sure if serious on the highlighted parts...
standard anti-WOW hyperbole which is used for trolling, has worked well for years.
I was going to say this. Asking anything about wow here and you will get a lot of this. People always like to hate on whats popular. And wow found the right formula to please most players. No other mmo will ever come close to doing this again.
When I played WoW in Vanilla I felt the game was lazy. Nearly all the dungeons were identical, the classes quite standard and the community abyssmal.
Not sure if serious on the highlighted parts...
This is my opinion. I would call it ironically typical that while being branded a propaganda troll, the majority of you fit the same bill in your defense. I did not make it to end-game, the content I experienced was not satisfactory in my opinion. This does not make me a troll. To clarify other remarks as to the definition of the word abyssmal. That does not mean under-populated. It means low in quality.
Don't try to play the victim, sir. I never called you a troll, I just completely disagree with what you said, and anyone who has played Vanilla WoW knows that dungeons had very different settings. If you insist that BRD looked, felt and played (e.g.) like Stratholme, then you, sir, are using misinformation to try to bash this game. And if you didn't make it to end game, you're not only using misinformation, but you are also misinformed. Anyway, even at low levels, saying that Dead Mines look like Shadowfang Keep, Stockade or Scarlet Monastery is still wrong. All looked, felt and played very differently.
As to the troll comment, another person agreeing with you said it. As I'm not a regular forum poster, as you can see by my history, that was a mistake in clarification on my end, and I apologize for that. There's still a hypocrisy in your point. If I disagree with you, I'm misinformed, it's not possible that I could have another opinion, I HAVE to be bashing WoW. I won't insist on any of it, this was my feeling when I played the game years ago, I cannot stress that enough. The raids and dungeons did play very similarly, in my opinion. I'm not misinformed, we don't share the same information, or the same opinion, but branding me as someone trying to "bash" it, when I approached this community with sincere intent to convince me to give it another shot? That's madness. Having a negative opinion is not bashing, which to reiterate, my opinion is not negative, it's that there was blandness and laziness to the content. That's merely a criticism, it doesn't have to be hate speech. I think GW2's engine is stylistically hideous. Is that a bash? Not at all. Continue being the well adjusted and intelligent person that you are, branding opinions you don't agree with "slander/libel/propaganda". Your typing skills cannot mask that nauseating ego. You're not wrong, we have different feeling and opinions about this. Please, for the sake of your own life, look past the irony of your claim.
To everyone else that has been helpful. You've all given me a lot to consider, and many of you appear to disagree with you. I applaud most of you for allowing me to witness and participate in a dialogue without the majority of you claiming I am "bashing" WoW, for believing it had some faults. What I've gotten so far is...
1. Community. There are a ton of players. Many of you found friends and a home there. Definitely a reason to stay.
2. Content: While I found some of the context sloppy or perplexing in it's implementation, many of you enjoyed it. I wish I had, however, as most of you seem to like it, I'm clearly in the minority and I'm going to have to get over it more or less.
3. Raids: I'm not a huge raider, however, many of you stress that raiding was the defining factor or the reason the game became sour to you all. I didn't experience this on an intense level, so it was at least interesting to look at it this way.
I want to thank AshGUTZ, muppetpilot, yaevindusk, evilastro and Seprhinx for giving very well thought out posts that challenged my initial perception on WoW and perhaps the MMO genre as a while. I think I'm going to step back from the genre for a while, it's been a staple in my life for over a decade and an existential feeling is growing inside me towards the genre. Obviously, that's not good. Good luck to you all in your gaming endeavors.
if any. I want to know if the end-game is meaningful and not just a slough through dungeons to get rare boots.
Endgame is just that, grind instances to get the epic gear like always. It's the same themepark, just endgame is now in a asian theme with also a faction reputation grinder for gear like in the old days.
uh, for the record, wow is not like other themeparks....
OTHER THEMEPARKS ARE LIKE WOW! understand the difference. the asians WISH they could have a game like wow (or it's endgame)
It's a shame you are completely wrong. Everquest started this trend long before WoW ever hit the boards so basicly wow is like other themeparks because Everquest was the first to go out with all of this. Even Everquest 2 had more content then WoW and WoW instantly started to take ideas from that game. You can say all you want about WoW but it was never the FIRST to do anything other then having pandas.
Just for some justice. Pandaren race was originally announced as an April Fools joke for Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos before the game's release and they actually made it in game in WC3: Frozen Throne. Release date of WC3 is July 2003 and that pre-dates both EQ2 and Perfect World. In vanilla WoW there some references about em like Chen's Empty Keg quest (Horde side) or Justin NPC in Stormwind and his: "It's true! People have seen them! Pandaren really do exist!". Also during the discussion panel at Blizzcon 2009, it was stated that the Pandaren have not had an increased presence in the game due to legal issues with China. Hua'Mein (NPC race) appeared in EQ2 in Sentinel's Fate expansion (that's February 2010 release). Should i say that even Pandaren Monk pet in WoW was released before that (in yearly 2009)? Can't say anything about Perfect World since i'm totally not interested in it but at least it was released only in 2005 (in China) and 2008 in EU. That's at least an year after WC3:FT and 2 years after "invention" of Pandarens.
I have been playing WoW on and off since 2004 and am still currently playing. I have also played EQ, EQ2, DAoC, AO, and many other games. Why do I still stick with WoW and not with the others ? Quite simply because it is the game that provides me with the largest amount of enjoyment. Gaming is about enjoyment. If you no longer find it fun, then either change games, genres, do something else.
Why do I find WoW funner than other games ? Well, it isn't that the other games weren't fun. They just weren't *as* fun overall. Sure there were things I really liked in them and things I did not. Some of them got a lot of play time from me, but WoW is the game I have played second longest (EVE is the first with 5 years put in). I estimate I have played WoW for 4 years.
The issue is that so far I have not found more recent releases as compelling. They might be polished and pretty, but they lack a certain spark that seems to live on in Blizzard games and why I have been a fan of Blizzard since 1996 or there abouts. It is like comparing EVE to other sandbox games. EVE has a certain magic in it to me that made me love playing it more than the other sandbox MMOs I tried. It is probably just the right balance and combination of features, people, development cycles and artwork.
All I can suggest is to give WoW another try if you want to try to get into it. You might have a more enjoyable time now than you did at Vanilla. Sometimes it takes a few times to get into a game.
I've played WoW on and off for years (since about 2007). I'm not playing it right now, may or may not go back for the expansion; we will see. In answer to your question of "why WoW?" I would offer that regardless of how much hate the game gets, it simply has more to do in-game than any other MMO on the market. I didn't quit out of boredom; I quit because I don't like what they have done with PvP. Point being, there seems to always be things to do in WoW, always people around to talk to, always guilds recruiting, and it has never been easier to group for raids, dungeons, etc. The economy has had years to develop and thus is quite stable, making it easy for anyone to make a comfortable living; and I say that as someone who abhors crafting in MMOs and never did anything but gathering professions, yet never once had trouble making plenty of gold, provided I put the effort forth.
I would also add that WoW most certainly does not force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. You generally have options as far as how you want to level, where you want to go and how you want to get there, how much interaction you have with others, and so forth. You can most certainly grind if you want to, but I think a lot of that can be bypassed, especially if you have folks to help you out.
I think the past few years have seen a lot of games that claim to be "innovative!" and "groundbreaking!", and yet they fail to fit those descriptors. I also think many other games wind up basically forcing people to group, forcing them to do things solo, pushing them into massive zergfests and breaking their will with terrible economies, bots, and horrendous pugs. Blizzard has had a long time to figure all of that out, and while WoW most certainly is not the Messiah of MMOs, I would go back to my point about it giving players choices, and I think it does that better than anyone.
Much of the hatred directed towards WoW is probably due to jealousy. The fact of the matter is that no matter what the pretenders in the MMO market say, none of them can even sniff WoW's player base and probably never will. Nothing lasts forever, of course, but WoW has had a run of success that may never be duplicated, especially considering the finicky nature of the gaming market. How many so-called "WoW-killers" have we seen over the past five years? Too many to count. And guess what? The ones that launched with sub models are now all F2P, primarily because they simply do not contain enough content to keep people playing. So don't let the trolls fool you; any developer or publisher of any other MMO in the world would most likely give his little finger if it meant that game could have "only" 7.7 million players.
while i think much of your critique is fair, if not spot on, i'm afraid i'd have to differ with you on that highlighted line there. EQ2 has so many things going on i am frankly lost most times when i log in to play, not knowing where to start.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
There's still a hypocrisy in your point. If I disagree with you, I'm misinformed, it's not possible that I could have another opinion, I HAVE to be bashing WoW. I won't insist on any of it, this was my feeling when I played the game years ago, I cannot stress that enough. The raids and dungeons did play very similarly, in my opinion. I'm not misinformed, we don't share the same information, or the same opinion, but branding me as someone trying to "bash" it, when I approached this community with sincere intent to convince me to give it another shot? That's madness. Having a negative opinion is not bashing, which to reiterate, my opinion is not negative, it's that there was blandness and laziness to the content. That's merely a criticism, it doesn't have to be hate speech. I think GW2's engine is stylistically hideous. Is that a bash? Not at all. Continue being the well adjusted and intelligent person that you are, branding opinions you don't agree with "slander/libel/propaganda". Your typing skills cannot mask that nauseating ego. You're not wrong, we have different feeling and opinions about this. Please, for the sake of your own life, look past the irony of your claim.
Not sure on whose side the hypocrisy is here...
Saying that, I quote, "nearly all dungeons were identical", is like standing in front of a field in which there is a beautiful totally white horse and pretend that horse is black. It is misinformation, not opinion. When one dungeon is in mines, and the next in a medieval castle, then sorry, they aren't identical at all. The fights are all different too.
Now to the highlighted part. I'm going to start by quoting a previous post of yours in this same thread.
Originally posted by Amarao
I did not make it to end-game, the content I experienced was not satisfactory in my opinion.
Now I'm going to ask the inevitable question... if you didn't make it to end-game, how do you know anything about the raids? Who is the hypocrite, when you talk about the quality and appearance of content you never experienced?
All I see is someone who uses misinformation, and when presented with facts which contradict that misinformation, resorts to personal attacks and insults. No wonder some people doubt about your real intentions when you made this thread.
No friend, it's more like standing in front of a field with a calico horse who's pattern is white on white side and brown on the other and we both see different sides. You can't seem to separate your opinion from fact and that's fine. Yup, you got me, they're aesthetically different at times. I guess that means I can't think they're similar. Oh the fights are different too? I couldn't possibly disagree. Alright. You win.
"Now I'm going to ask the inevitable question... if you didn't make it to end-game, how do you know anything about the raids? Who is the hypocrite, when you talk about the quality and appearance of content you never experienced?"
Your perception of reality is starting to wear thin. I am ONLY talking about the content that I did experience, which I specified, as not to endgame. I have prefaced every point and criticism by stating my relatively limited experience with the game from the start, however, the content that i DID experience, end-game or not, was in my opinion not satisfactory. I don't see how that's contradictory at all. I'm not pursuing this any longer with you. No one is doubting my intentions but perhaps 20% of the people in this thread and half of them could be dismissed as bandwagon from your initial point. You don't have any "Facts" that contradict my opinions, you have your opinions or perhaps even the majority opinion which happens to differ from mine it seems. There is not right or wrong in this, it is not black and white, there are no facts in interpretation of an experience. I didn't like something for the reasons stated, you're saying my reasons are bullshit because you disagree, whatever, fine. You're too stubborn to realize it seems, that your opinion, whether popular or not, is not a fact but merely an opinion. Since we can't even seem to agree on what the reality of an opinion instead of a fact is and more broadly context. . . I'm out.
Just for some justice. Pandaren race was originally announced as an April Fools joke for Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos before the game's release and they actually made it in game in WC3: Frozen Throne. Release date of WC3 is July 2003 and that pre-dates both EQ2 and Perfect World. In vanilla WoW there some references about em like Chen's Empty Keg quest (Horde side) or Justin NPC in Stormwind and his: "It's true! People have seen them! Pandaren really do exist!". Also during the discussion panel at Blizzcon 2009, it was stated that the Pandaren have not had an increased presence in the game due to legal issues with China. Hua'Mein (NPC race) appeared in EQ2 in Sentinel's Fate expansion (that's February 2010 release). Should i say that even Pandaren Monk pet in WoW was released before that (in yearly 2009)? Can't say anything about Perfect World since i'm totally not interested in it but at least it was released only in 2005 (in China) and 2008 in EU. That's at least an year after WC3:FT and 2 years after "invention" of Pandarens.
So you never did a single raid (quote: "I did not make it to end-game"), yet you said that all raids "play similar". And you have the audacity to insult my "perception of reality" and call me an hypocrite. Once again, I'm going to repeat my first answer to this thread: "not sure if serious".
At least now your intents are clear for everybody to read. Looks like the doubters were right all along, and you did a good job to prove them right by the rudeness of your answers.
I will just add one advice, even though I shouldn't considering how rude you are. When WoW was in Vanilla, you were like 13-14 years old (if the age in your profile is correct). You're now 22. Your perception has changed, and your experience with MMORPGs increased. Maybe you should forget the very short experience that your 12-13 years old self had, and give the game a new fair try with your 22 years old more experienced self. WoW has a free trial up to level 20, and you can play any race/class except the Death Knight and Monk classes. You can even roll a Panda if you want. You can do PvP in 2 BGs, and have access to 6 different dungeons at level 20: Deamines (mines owned by bandits), Ragefire Chasm (fiery caves), Wailing Caverns (nature corrupted caverns), Shadowfang Keep (medieval castle invaded by undead), Blackfathom Depths (caverns with a sea theme full of naga and other sea creatures), Stormwind Stockage (a prison). All this without paying a cent. Then you can decide by yourself if you want to keep on playing, or not. Maybe even though your manners haven't improved during those last 8 years, your perception of MMORPGs has? Who knows.
A raid, is not a term referring solely to an end-game dungeon. It refers to any dungeon. It's a broad over-arching term used in many MMO's to talk about group instanced content, sometimes not instances. Perhaps this is different in wow, but I find it hard to believe this common place term has taken on it's own specific meaning in Wow. The one's that I DID play, in my opinion, played similarly.
I have the audacity to question your perception of reality, for the same reason you have the audacity to suggest my manners have not improved in 9 years. You believe your opinion is a fact. Your perception of reality appears to be that opinions and perceptions are facts. That, just isn't true. So yes, your perception of reality in this regard doesn't allow for other viewpoints or different opinions relevant to this content, which I think is close-minded and unfair. I've never said you're wrong, I've said I don't agree. You've disagreed with me and said I'm wrong. There is no wrong or right in this issue, you have manufactured one. So once again, yes I question your perception of reality, or more accurately I guess, semantics.
Have I been rude? Arrogant? Perhaps. Only in retaliation to having a legitimate question of mine cheapened with an arbitrary response, referring to your initial reply. I do not take issue with you as a person, and truly, I don't mean to insult or anger you. However, you questioned my integrity, disregarded my opinion and reduced it to bashing. Considering that my intentions were indeed quite pure, this was insulting, and I responded appropriately.
I appreciate the advice? Yes, I am 22, so when I played WoW initially in Vanilla I was quite young. As I also specified, I played shortly before Cataclysms release as well, so despite my age at the time of release, I've played through much of the content, however not to end-game still. If I give it a shot now, and make it further in WoW than I previously have, I may agree with you, but at this point I don't believe that's any longer the issue.
Whether I was 13 when I first played or 40, is irrelevant in the grand-scheme of this. An opinion is an opinion. Just because you disagree, staunchly or otherwise, does not make an opposing one wrong and THAT is what I've fought for. That is why I question your semantic perception and that is why I've taken the time to respond again. This kind of boxing out any voice of disapproval, valid or not, should not exist. When I was 13/14, I did not enjoy WoW's content that I did experience, which was perhaps into the mid 40's. When I played pre-cata at 17/18, I felt the same and made it a bit further. My claims are not invalid because of my age. The level I reached, or any other agenda I pursue. UNLESS you are claiming that raids in WoW refer ONLY to end-game content, which if they do, much of this is predicated on a misunderstanding on both our ends and that is truly terrible in retrospect. Regardless, please do not shuffle every person with a small point in their post that you can nit-pick into the box of "basher" or "troll" or whatever more benign term you would prefer. It's crass. I'm taking your advice to heart regardless, although I am aware of the majority of the content you listed, I will not discredit the possibility that another trip to Azeroth could change my perception. I'm checking out of this conversation now, if you reply I will read, but I'm choosing not to engage with this any further. I think we can both agree it is futile.
Dungeons and raids ad different in wow in terms of intent , complexity and gameplay. That asside if you want to get immersed in wow I would advise that you follow the story and plot lines as you quest, this is the first step on the path to engagement, you There is a problem with some modern mmorg players (this is not directed at anyone here), they don't undersfand that they need to take responsibility for defining their own path and goals in a mmorg, it is NOT a single player game., further to this they do not understand that they have to use their own imagination to engage. That must make it very difficult to Immerse ultimately.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Cut and paste error ^^. In short, follow storyline to engage yourself, and give yourself goals such as achieves to add value and meaning to raiding. Re raiding itself, the big investment by blizzard is the complexity and balancing of boss mechanics, so I sugges reading wikis on boss encounters, this. Will allow you to understand where the complexities are that differentiate each encounter to make them fun- then challenge yourself to master them, use meters, analyse you performance, try to be better. Than peers then people that over gear you. At this point gear starts to mean something, and yo are on the path...
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
So you never did a single raid (quote: "I did not make it to end-game"), yet you said that all raids "play similar". And you have the audacity to insult my "perception of reality" and call me an hypocrite. Once again, I'm going to repeat my first answer to this thread: "not sure if serious".
At least now your intents are clear for everybody to read. Looks like the doubters were right all along, and you did a good job to prove them right by the rudeness of your answers.
I will just add one advice, even though I shouldn't considering how rude you are. When WoW was in Vanilla, you were like 13-14 years old (if the age in your profile is correct). You're now 22. Your perception has changed, and your experience with MMORPGs increased. Maybe you should forget the very short experience that your 12-13 years old self had, and give the game a new fair try with your 22 years old more experienced self. WoW has a free trial up to level 20, and you can play any race/class except the Death Knight and Monk classes. You can even roll a Panda if you want. You can do PvP in 2 BGs, and have access to 6 different dungeons at level 20: Deamines (mines owned by bandits), Ragefire Chasm (fiery caves), Wailing Caverns (nature corrupted caverns), Shadowfang Keep (medieval castle invaded by undead), Blackfathom Depths (caverns with a sea theme full of naga and other sea creatures), Stormwind Stockage (a prison). All this without paying a cent. Then you can decide by yourself if you want to keep on playing, or not. Maybe even though your manners haven't improved during those last 8 years, your perception of MMORPGs has? Who knows.
A raid, is not a term referring solely to an end-game dungeon. It refers to any dungeon. It's a broad over-arching term used in many MMO's to talk about group instanced content, sometimes not instances. Perhaps this is different in wow, but I find it hard to believe this common place term has taken on it's own specific meaning in Wow. The one's that I DID play, in my opinion, played similarly.
Uhm no, a raid is a specific event. It is an event that requires at least two teams of people to complete its goals. Otherwise, it is just basic group-play. It does not even have to involve a dungeon at all, but you are right that it does not have to be endgame material.
However, when discussing WoW, a raid is a particular event: instanced, requiring multiple teams that in general you had to run at endgame especially in the Vanilla days.
Comments
This is my opinion. I would call it ironically typical that while being branded a propaganda troll, the majority of you fit the same bill in your defense. I did not make it to end-game, the content I experienced was not satisfactory in my opinion. This does not make me a troll. To clarify other remarks as to the definition of the word abyssmal. That does not mean under-populated. It means low in quality.
Perhaps you're right, it may be best for me to take a break or even abandon the genre. I appreciate you keeping it intelligent and focused despite disagreeing with many of my points, as others failed to do. I believe I'll avoid MMO's for a short while and see if the passion returns. Thanks.
You mentioned how Lotro has a lack of community but I've never noticed this issue, though it has been a few months since I've played around in it. I found a compelling aspect of Lotro to be the helpful, kind, and role playing enthused community. To follow up your notes on Lotro with the statement that Lineage 2 was your favorite just before calling WoW Vanilla lazy and repetitive is puzzling because that game was a grind fest wrapped in beautiful graphics.
The most popular games might -just- not fit your play style. I found them adding "daycare" quests as you've called it a nice break from the basic kill x/x, collect x, and messenger quests. That's not lazy in my opinion I think it was intuitive and unlike the build many other mmorpg's have limited themselves to.
WoW was my second MMORPG, right after FF11. I attained the game in the December of its release (so 2004?) or 2005. WoW has claimed ~83% of the USD I've spent on all games including console.
Vanilla WoW sucked me in because I had three friends to show me around, I was so ignorant I got "stuck" in the bottom of Ironforge. The character models were unlike anything I had seen in all my consoles, each quite unique from the other. The idea of being a badass shape changing elf suckered my teenage heart and I jumped at the chance. What kept me leveling was how questing gave you rewards, including new pieces of gear and items you ate for buffs. My favorite part was "kiting", I could MOVE while I was attacking something and this made combat feel dynamic to me. I felt in control of my fate. My first time in a PvP enabled area it was so infuriating getting ganked by ?? opposing faction, oh how I couldn't wait to get high enough level to run around doing the same thing! I loved how when I got tired of doing quests I could pick up a fishing pole and then use those fish in cooking, I could still play but I wasn't forced to do any one thing. Gathering a group up for dungeons in trade chat, having it wipe multiple times but you all invested so much time it was like no one minded the challenge we'd be in a dungeon for an hour together just to kill those bosses for new gear we knew we'd replace soon anyways. Then when I finally hit cap I was able to join raids, I didn't have a guild so I'd join PuGs hosted by 10 core players from one guild and they'd hold raffles. I purchased enough pieces that I was finally ready to join a raiding guild and eventually I was the person organizing those raids, I was a core raider. Granted I had to schedule my play time, lose out on weekends, and spend most of my time in Vent but that's what I loved doing it's what kept my enthused. AV battlegrounds were a blast, sometimes lasting hours. The grind for my mount slipped right past me.
Then Burning Crusade came out, I was still resubbing to the game so it was rather heartbreaking vendoring all those raiding purples I worked so hard for but I was excited for a whole new area to explore. I remember the graphics were unlike anything we saw in Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms. The floating masses of debris in Outlands made me feel so small again, just like that first day getting lost in Ironforge. I stuck around but I never got that desire to raid again, it may have just been a lack of time. The rep grinds for mounts weren't my thing, I've never been one for direct grinding though. I do remember being excited for them to introduce cooking/fishing dailies, it felt like the sub professions had the tiniest light shed on them. EoTs was introduced as a battleground and by this time the one-five hour battles of Hillsbrad Foothills were LONG gone. You could still find some good world pvp in Outlands, a lot of the time it was a group of "bored capped levels" griefing anyone trying to level. I ended up hitting cap on three of my characters hoping I'd reignite that passion I once had but I cancelled my sub.
When Wotlk came out I resubbed and I felt like I just sludged through leveling. Obviously they had to extend the amount of experience to level up but it was really feeling repetitive by now. The last rep grind I did was with Shattered Sun Offensive, which wasn't half as bad as gaining one level in Wotlk (this coming from a loather of grinding). Well, I made it to cap and Dalaran was really nice. They added all these interesting achievements, I specifically remember crowding around the fountain for collecting the individual coins via: fishing. They did a good job of making you want to work on your professions including introductions of that flying carpet or the engineer copter, it was cool of them I thought. I hadn't seen many games where you could utilize your professions for something other people didn't get to glorify themselves with. Once again I wasn't able to reignite my desire to work with people how I was in Vanilla, in fact I felt like I was better off doing things alone.
The WoW community started rubbing me the wrong way, many (not all) players were full of spite or scarred from "ninjas" in the past. I don't know why the game appears to attract these types of people.
When Cataclysm came out I felt like it was of an update, something telling me "Hey were going to do something you're going to want to stick around for". The zones and leveling felt a lot like Wotlk, for me at least. Once MoP came out I was excited for a new race, we hadn't had one in awhile. I thought the way Blizzard approached questing had taken a positive turn, since Wotlk they were introducing the temporary vehicle quests. They were doing a good job of neatly wrapping the reputation grinds in a pretty package. My Alliance dominated server was tough to level on because they were holding up all the towns/guards with no issue but that made it more compelling to want to struggle my way through to the cap. Unfortunately the rep grinds were everywhere, and you were overwhelmingly limited on your progression. There are some days I can spend hours playing and some weeks I can spend zero. I think it should be easier to be a "hardcore" player but they've sort of cleverly packaged it to where you have to return the next day to reap the rewards. The farm was a nice new feature, sort of like a limited player housing. Everything was instanced off, sometimes you want to play with friends but they've completed more on a story line than you have in that area forcing you to find the start of that line and complete it too. This can be exceptionally painful if while leveling you completed certain parts of that quest line then dropped it after hitting cap, you have to search the line on a wiki and then visit each npc down the line until you find your way through.
The new que system was nice for casual players but I feel like in turn it created a vast "open dead" world, most of the low level zones are close to abandoned. You don't have to even communicate with people in your group, and since it's combined between servers for faster ques you really don't need to. They lowered the low level experience requirements by a vast amount, and I was floored when they dropped the mount level requirement from 40 to 20. It's like you aren't even making people struggle anymore so they'll get that feeling of "man I can't wait until I can get that".
I recently resubbed to WoW, played it about five hours, and logged back out only to consider making the big deletion. I can tell you why I used to like WoW, which I accidently turned into a novel. Perhaps you can find the passion I had in Vanilla within these new expansions. I might even resub for their upcoming expansion just because I've invested so much time and money into the game. I think if you find a group of players that enjoy the game, and are good at it, this game can be great and full of features to devote yourself to. WoW isn't just polished, it's also one of the better balanced games (some will argue class vs. class, well that's because yes some of them are built to be stronger versus others and vice versa). The best thing about WoW is you can truly play what you enjoy it's not like many of the F2P where the lack of balance means you have to forum search builds for the one or two viable options available. Certain combinations of gems/enchantments along with your build and knowing how to play it can help define the different layers of players. I also find Blizzard's customer service to be the best I've experienced in any other game, having been to Blizzcon their games are made by gamers (and many humble ones at that).
Edit: My sub is still up and reminiscing about all that makes me want to log in.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
There's really only three reasons I can think of "Why I stay with WoW?" And none of them really have to do with the game (Well 4 if you count Warlords of Draenor)
1) Community - This is going to sound weird but I like the community I'm in when I play. The community at large is horrible, but my little niche of 1-200 people I play with regularly are pretty good guys (and gals). We always have things to do together, and it's very simple to get people together even if they're on a different server.
2) Commitment - I've played it so long and have done so much in it that it would seem like a waste of the last 9 years to leave and play something else. I have pretty much every achievement, every mount, every pet, every set, every class 90, etc. I just don't really feel like starting over, except in some other games that have a good story. I usually play these games along with WoW. I usually have 2 subscriptions for myself up at any given time.
3) Nothing is Better - I've played pretty much every MMO since Neverwinter Nights waaay back in 1991, and there just simply isn't any other MMO that I want to spend more time in than WoW. There might be some that look better and I'll play them along with WoW. Games like Age of Conan, Neverwinter (currently), Defiance, Final Fantasy 14 (waiting for 2.1!) all look better and have some interesting other perks, be it better story, better gameplay, better controls, etc. But overall I just think WoW is better.
4) Warlords of Draenor - Waaay back in 2003? when WoW was announced, I was so happy, and spent a lot of time theorycrafting with everyone else. I always thought back then that they should start with the backstory of the original Warcraft: Orcs & Humans. Blizzard did not go that route, but what they did do was also perfectly fine, since most of the original WoW players played at least WC3. Also Warlords of Draenor is bringing my favorite character probably in any game, lore, literature, etc. Grommash Hellscream. I've always had the name of my Orc Warrior in WoW, and any orc in any game that had them pay homage to Grommash.
I was going to say this. Asking anything about wow here and you will get a lot of this. People always like to hate on whats popular. And wow found the right formula to please most players. No other mmo will ever come close to doing this again.
As to the troll comment, another person agreeing with you said it. As I'm not a regular forum poster, as you can see by my history, that was a mistake in clarification on my end, and I apologize for that. There's still a hypocrisy in your point. If I disagree with you, I'm misinformed, it's not possible that I could have another opinion, I HAVE to be bashing WoW. I won't insist on any of it, this was my feeling when I played the game years ago, I cannot stress that enough. The raids and dungeons did play very similarly, in my opinion. I'm not misinformed, we don't share the same information, or the same opinion, but branding me as someone trying to "bash" it, when I approached this community with sincere intent to convince me to give it another shot? That's madness. Having a negative opinion is not bashing, which to reiterate, my opinion is not negative, it's that there was blandness and laziness to the content. That's merely a criticism, it doesn't have to be hate speech. I think GW2's engine is stylistically hideous. Is that a bash? Not at all. Continue being the well adjusted and intelligent person that you are, branding opinions you don't agree with "slander/libel/propaganda". Your typing skills cannot mask that nauseating ego. You're not wrong, we have different feeling and opinions about this. Please, for the sake of your own life, look past the irony of your claim.
To everyone else that has been helpful. You've all given me a lot to consider, and many of you appear to disagree with you. I applaud most of you for allowing me to witness and participate in a dialogue without the majority of you claiming I am "bashing" WoW, for believing it had some faults. What I've gotten so far is...
1. Community. There are a ton of players. Many of you found friends and a home there. Definitely a reason to stay.
2. Content: While I found some of the context sloppy or perplexing in it's implementation, many of you enjoyed it. I wish I had, however, as most of you seem to like it, I'm clearly in the minority and I'm going to have to get over it more or less.
3. Raids: I'm not a huge raider, however, many of you stress that raiding was the defining factor or the reason the game became sour to you all. I didn't experience this on an intense level, so it was at least interesting to look at it this way.
I want to thank AshGUTZ, muppetpilot, yaevindusk, evilastro and Seprhinx for giving very well thought out posts that challenged my initial perception on WoW and perhaps the MMO genre as a while. I think I'm going to step back from the genre for a while, it's been a staple in my life for over a decade and an existential feeling is growing inside me towards the genre. Obviously, that's not good. Good luck to you all in your gaming endeavors.
Perfect World had pandas before WoW
Hua'Mein (NPC race) appeared in EQ2 in Sentinel's Fate expansion (that's February 2010 release). Should i say that even Pandaren Monk pet in WoW was released before that (in yearly 2009)? Can't say anything about Perfect World since i'm totally not interested in it but at least it was released only in 2005 (in China) and 2008 in EU. That's at least an year after WC3:FT and 2 years after "invention" of Pandarens.
I have been playing WoW on and off since 2004 and am still currently playing. I have also played EQ, EQ2, DAoC, AO, and many other games. Why do I still stick with WoW and not with the others ? Quite simply because it is the game that provides me with the largest amount of enjoyment. Gaming is about enjoyment. If you no longer find it fun, then either change games, genres, do something else.
Why do I find WoW funner than other games ? Well, it isn't that the other games weren't fun. They just weren't *as* fun overall. Sure there were things I really liked in them and things I did not. Some of them got a lot of play time from me, but WoW is the game I have played second longest (EVE is the first with 5 years put in). I estimate I have played WoW for 4 years.
The issue is that so far I have not found more recent releases as compelling. They might be polished and pretty, but they lack a certain spark that seems to live on in Blizzard games and why I have been a fan of Blizzard since 1996 or there abouts. It is like comparing EVE to other sandbox games. EVE has a certain magic in it to me that made me love playing it more than the other sandbox MMOs I tried. It is probably just the right balance and combination of features, people, development cycles and artwork.
All I can suggest is to give WoW another try if you want to try to get into it. You might have a more enjoyable time now than you did at Vanilla. Sometimes it takes a few times to get into a game.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
while i think much of your critique is fair, if not spot on, i'm afraid i'd have to differ with you on that highlighted line there. EQ2 has so many things going on i am frankly lost most times when i log in to play, not knowing where to start.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
No friend, it's more like standing in front of a field with a calico horse who's pattern is white on white side and brown on the other and we both see different sides. You can't seem to separate your opinion from fact and that's fine. Yup, you got me, they're aesthetically different at times. I guess that means I can't think they're similar. Oh the fights are different too? I couldn't possibly disagree. Alright. You win.
"Now I'm going to ask the inevitable question... if you didn't make it to end-game, how do you know anything about the raids? Who is the hypocrite, when you talk about the quality and appearance of content you never experienced?"
Your perception of reality is starting to wear thin. I am ONLY talking about the content that I did experience, which I specified, as not to endgame. I have prefaced every point and criticism by stating my relatively limited experience with the game from the start, however, the content that i DID experience, end-game or not, was in my opinion not satisfactory. I don't see how that's contradictory at all. I'm not pursuing this any longer with you. No one is doubting my intentions but perhaps 20% of the people in this thread and half of them could be dismissed as bandwagon from your initial point. You don't have any "Facts" that contradict my opinions, you have your opinions or perhaps even the majority opinion which happens to differ from mine it seems. There is not right or wrong in this, it is not black and white, there are no facts in interpretation of an experience. I didn't like something for the reasons stated, you're saying my reasons are bullshit because you disagree, whatever, fine. You're too stubborn to realize it seems, that your opinion, whether popular or not, is not a fact but merely an opinion. Since we can't even seem to agree on what the reality of an opinion instead of a fact is and more broadly context. . . I'm out.
of course but they werent in WoW until much later
A raid, is not a term referring solely to an end-game dungeon. It refers to any dungeon. It's a broad over-arching term used in many MMO's to talk about group instanced content, sometimes not instances. Perhaps this is different in wow, but I find it hard to believe this common place term has taken on it's own specific meaning in Wow. The one's that I DID play, in my opinion, played similarly.
I have the audacity to question your perception of reality, for the same reason you have the audacity to suggest my manners have not improved in 9 years. You believe your opinion is a fact. Your perception of reality appears to be that opinions and perceptions are facts. That, just isn't true. So yes, your perception of reality in this regard doesn't allow for other viewpoints or different opinions relevant to this content, which I think is close-minded and unfair. I've never said you're wrong, I've said I don't agree. You've disagreed with me and said I'm wrong. There is no wrong or right in this issue, you have manufactured one. So once again, yes I question your perception of reality, or more accurately I guess, semantics.
Have I been rude? Arrogant? Perhaps. Only in retaliation to having a legitimate question of mine cheapened with an arbitrary response, referring to your initial reply. I do not take issue with you as a person, and truly, I don't mean to insult or anger you. However, you questioned my integrity, disregarded my opinion and reduced it to bashing. Considering that my intentions were indeed quite pure, this was insulting, and I responded appropriately.
I appreciate the advice? Yes, I am 22, so when I played WoW initially in Vanilla I was quite young. As I also specified, I played shortly before Cataclysms release as well, so despite my age at the time of release, I've played through much of the content, however not to end-game still. If I give it a shot now, and make it further in WoW than I previously have, I may agree with you, but at this point I don't believe that's any longer the issue.
Whether I was 13 when I first played or 40, is irrelevant in the grand-scheme of this. An opinion is an opinion. Just because you disagree, staunchly or otherwise, does not make an opposing one wrong and THAT is what I've fought for. That is why I question your semantic perception and that is why I've taken the time to respond again. This kind of boxing out any voice of disapproval, valid or not, should not exist. When I was 13/14, I did not enjoy WoW's content that I did experience, which was perhaps into the mid 40's. When I played pre-cata at 17/18, I felt the same and made it a bit further. My claims are not invalid because of my age. The level I reached, or any other agenda I pursue. UNLESS you are claiming that raids in WoW refer ONLY to end-game content, which if they do, much of this is predicated on a misunderstanding on both our ends and that is truly terrible in retrospect. Regardless, please do not shuffle every person with a small point in their post that you can nit-pick into the box of "basher" or "troll" or whatever more benign term you would prefer. It's crass. I'm taking your advice to heart regardless, although I am aware of the majority of the content you listed, I will not discredit the possibility that another trip to Azeroth could change my perception. I'm checking out of this conversation now, if you reply I will read, but I'm choosing not to engage with this any further. I think we can both agree it is futile.
There is a problem with some modern mmorg players (this is not directed at anyone here), they don't undersfand that they need to take responsibility for defining their own path and goals in a mmorg, it is NOT a single player game., further to this they do not understand that they have to use their own imagination to engage. That must make it very difficult to Immerse ultimately.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Uhm no, a raid is a specific event. It is an event that requires at least two teams of people to complete its goals. Otherwise, it is just basic group-play. It does not even have to involve a dungeon at all, but you are right that it does not have to be endgame material.
However, when discussing WoW, a raid is a particular event: instanced, requiring multiple teams that in general you had to run at endgame especially in the Vanilla days.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.