but they are limmited in options by doing so... Developing a pc only game alllows much more freedom for your interface and graphics...
I would never play an mmo on a console, because not having a keyboard kills so much of the social aspect of an mmo.
You can use a keyboard on consoles
False, you can use a keyboard for normal tasks but not for gameplay unless the game (which almost NONE are) is made to allow it.
You have to buy 3rd party hardware/software to emulate a controller with keyboard/mouse on consoles, but it can be buggy or glitchy sometimes since the game still thinks you're using a console controller.
The biggest design issue I see is UI and menu navigation. Its just way easier and faster to click through your recipe lists with a mouse than with an analog stick or d-pad.
You can use a kb with a console, but that means putting down the controller to do so. Its more intuitive on a pc because the kb servers as both your controller and your communication device.
Neither of these things are deal breakers or a true loss in quality imho. Just means that a dev has to keep that in mind when designing their UI and menu systems etc.
It is 2000 TIMES easier to scale DOWN from PC specs to Console than it is to scale UP, and not to mention PC testing cycles are easier since you're right in the environment you're devving in rather than kicking it down to consoles first to test.
To scale the specs, yes, but to develop the game - even thought a PC is being used as the tool to develop the game, and actually in spite of that fact - it's easier to build the gameplay and UI for console and convert to PC than it is to build it for the PC and then redesign it for console. That is why you see so many of the cross-platform games over the past few years with a decidedly console-leaning look and feel to them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by BearKnightIt is 2000 TIMES easier to scale DOWN from PC specs to Console than it is to scale UP, and not to mention PC testing cycles are easier since you're right in the environment you're devving in rather than kicking it down to consoles first to test.
To scale the specs, yes, but to develop the game - even thought a PC is being used as the tool to develop the game, and actually in spite of that fact - it's easier to build the gameplay and UI for console and convert to PC than it is to build it for the PC and then redesign it for console. That is why you see so many of the cross-platform games over the past few years with a decidedly console-leaning look and feel to them.
I have played games that were obviously made with the console in mind first, but I've never played a game on the console that was obviously made with the PC in mind first. Of the "console ports" I've played, none of them play as well using keyboard and mouse as they do when I use my controller. This makes me think there's something to writing for a console first, and a PC second.
Thinking about it in the abstract, if you wrote WoW with the 84 keybinds that are available, there's no way to conveniently fit that into a console control scheme. It would make for a much easier transition to write something for the console control scheme first, even if the game is going to release on both platforms.
Unless the developer has the resources to write separate games, it makes much more sense to write one game that starts with a common denominator for all platforms, and then expand the platforms where possible.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I agree that it certainly affects the design of the game. They must take into account factors specific to consoles when developing for both. Some might argue that the graphical quality will be compromised because of console limitations, but I don't agree that this is the case anymore. PS4 and XB1 are equivalent or higher in capability to mid range gaming PCs, which is the target anyway. The biggest influence on the design would be the controller. It's hard to come up with a good solution but I think FF14 did a good job and ESO probably will too. Communication would remain more difficult than on PC, but communities still form around many console games, like the Souls games, Halo, and COD for example.
So as far as quality of the game, I would say no. They can still produce a high quality and fun game. Only communication would be affected.
When a game is made for a consul it is made with a total of 12 input functions in mind. A PC game however can have 48(numbers letters and F-keys) X alt,shift,ctrl or 144 then you can add in number pads and end up with 154.
Add in a mouse and that can be as low as 3 and as high as 15 for a bare minimum of 157 keyable actions
That means a PC game can (and imo should) have 157 skills,spells,actions per actionalable instance.
So the differance is between 12 and 157 or about 7.5% potential functionality for consuls!
Now that is not to say most PC games today use the input limit. They should... but instead focus on the grafical and proccessing limits instead.
Lets look at the ps4 controller
there are 4 buttons on the right, with an analog stick that you could use for another 4 more if you want to leave it simple., so 8 buttons.
Now you have 4 trigger buttons up top. having an input for each of these held down + the original 8 and we are already up to 40
And we havent even touched the d-pad by the left analog stick. that can be used to quickly scroll between different sets of abilities.
Also, MMOs should NOT be designed to use 150 inputs, thats just atrocious design. Unless of course a lot of that 150 is just menu short cuts.
LOL thanx for pointing this out! I was about to.
For sure I want 157 skills etc. per instance :P
How many of those will you want to use at one time? Probably less than 10, for sure less than 20. As for having the rest it might mean scrolling thru an extra screen or two but essentially theres no limit to the skills on either, just a limit to how many are easily accessible when needed. And a controller generally has that covered in most cases. I agree though that EVE makes a beter PC game. I actually think the big strategy games like the Civ games etc. and also EVE online are best sutied for PC. I think if you want an action MMO tho, then it might do better on a console.
And that is really the only issue here. Controller vs keyboard. Does the game really need fast access to 150+ actions? No? Then it should play reasonably well with a controller, and sub menus.
Plus most people missed Phaserlights post where he mentioned the difference between a game "developed" for both consoles and a game "ported" . Big difference.
But of course people here just want to get into the old console vs. PC war. IMO if you call yourself a true gamer, you won't care if it is PC or console, but simply look at the game itself.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
IMO if you call yourself a true gamer, you won't care if it is PC or console, but simply look at the game itself.
That is exactly the issue we are facing here (at least up to this point in time).
We can look at the game and see it is dumped down. We can then either blame the dev's for failing, or the console. It is easier to blame the console, since current gen consoles LISTEN to what you say... current gen Dev's don't ;-)
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
but they are limmited in options by doing so... Developing a pc only game alllows much more freedom for your interface and graphics...
I would never play an mmo on a console, because not having a keyboard kills so much of the social aspect of an mmo.
You can use a keyboard on consoles
yes, but since noboddy does, it effectively ruins the community feeling..
I agree with you.
However it could just be that a truly social MMO has not been made for the consoles yet. If one was, a keyboard might become a more popular addition. PC users might be hoping that never happens tho as it would really narrow the playing field in that case.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I payed for DC Universe Online for PC, and while I'm an avid PC gamer something felt so choppy about the physics, not referring to lag.
Once DC Universe was brought to PS3 I tried it out and was quick to proclaim how the controls translated so much better to console than it ever did on the PC.
I don't think mmos lose quality when they're developed for both PC and Console, I enjoy FPS's like Call of Duty on both but I'm more frequent with my PC because I prefer mouse+keyboard for that type of game. So it's all rather subjective for me.
Originally posted by Mattatron "If the game hadn't limited itself by going on consoles as well. I would had bought it in a instant. Now that they have I can't see a bright future for the game. MMORPGS need to stick to PC's, otherwise the gameplay will be half-arsed and lesser in order to fit the analog stick." ~ Winghaven1, user on mmorpg.comI saw this statement in another thread and it struck a chord with me. Though I've thought about it in the past and kinda tried to argue against the idea in my own mind, I'm finding it more and more an important concern. I didn't want to believe it, because I believe it's possible for a dev team to make it work, but I'm having issues arguing now against the point.Are games made simpler if devs intend to release on console? OR are simple games released for console to garner more audience?Should we ever take a game seriously when the devs say they'll cross-platform? Will this change with the capabilities of the current gen PS4 and XBox1?
"Are games made simpler if devs intend to release on console? OR are simple games released for console to garner more audience?"
A little of both, in my opinion. Consoles do not have the capabilities that PCs have. Sure, a player can buy a keyboard for their console, but the average consoler does not have or do this. Without those keyboardless players, why even go there?
The bigger the market, the simpler a game needs to be in order to draw that market in. "Lowest Common Denominator" is not just a passing fancy phrase. It has been proven many times over. The most popular of anything is not always the best, or most complicated.
When a game announces that it is going to console, I see right through their marketing ploy, which is, "GIMME MOAR MONEH!" Consoles bring nothing to the table that PCs can not do much better, with the exception of numbers and dollars.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The problem is consoles don`t have many button, so they must only allow a few skills on their bar... not 30+ skills like the older mmo`s had.
In single player games they can have a wheel and you can change them while pausing the game, but in MMO`s they must limit you to a few active skills at once.
And on my opinion this sucks and is the reason i won`t be buying any new MMO doing that.
MMOs made for consoles: Limited worlds with small zones, places you can't reach, and tons of loading screens. Not to mention skills being limited because the console doesn't have as many buttons. I can honestly see nothing good in the further development of MMOs for the console.
Well, if you look alone at single player/multiplayer games there is definately a huge quality loss if the game was produced for consoles and PC in comparison to games just for a PC. This is probably true for mmorpgs aswell.
I have had not great expiriences with console/pc games and if you look at the current releases:
X-Rebirth is just one example, where the community actually noticed how simplified the game is dumped down in comparison to the versions just for PC. You really see and feel if a game is developed for consoles aswell and this with a negative touch.
Holy.... don't mention X-Rebirth. The wounds are still fresh and open. THAT one is really a good example how consoles ruin PC games, even whole subgenres. Damn,...
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
If you want some perspective think about titles like Mass Effect or Assassin's Creed - did they suffer because they focused on multi-platform release? Personally I don't think they did.
True, but these aren't mmos...
Those games did hurt, absolutely. The graphics, AI, and difficulty were all toned way down to appeal to a mass audience.
For bigger games, look at the difference between PC and Console battlefield. Consoles simply can't do what PCs can. In an MMO setting, when devs don't want big differences between the games, this means the PC version suffers.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Originally posted by ElRenmazuoOriginally posted by Lord.BachusThey dont loose quallity....but they are limmited in options by doing so... Developing a pc only game alllows much more freedom for your interface and graphics... I would never play an mmo on a console, because not having a keyboard kills so much of the social aspect of an mmo.
You can use a keyboard on consolesyes, but since noboddy does, it effectively ruins the community feeling.. Ah, the classic argument of "I know exactly what EVERY single player in the entire game is thinking so Im right and you're wrong".
Nice one.
It seems that in this thread people are blaming recent MMO trends on consoles even though 99% of recent MMOs are PC exclusive and had no intention of ever being on consoles.
Look at Neverwinter. Pretty much everything this topic is blaming on consoles but is PC exclusive.
Maybe the MMO genre as a whole is moving towards a new era. I mean, did people really expect the EQ style gameplay would be the standard for MMOs forever?
Obviously some technical considrations have to be taken into account which in turn limit your design choices. FFXIV for example the ram limitations of the PS3 can be clearly seen with the lack of huge zones. If you are a person that huge zones or continous open worlds are paramount then these sorts of limitations can be bothersome. If the console/PC translations impacts certain game elements that are important to you then yes it does affect the perceived quality of the game.
PC (Superior hardware options, unlimited amount of physical RAM, Multiple drop-in GPU setups)
vs
Console (Fixed internal hardware options, limited and fixed amount of physical RAM, cannot switch out vendor supplied GPU or add GPU's, in this gen. case AMD's dual GPU/CPU "APUS").
The whole new generation of consoles will at some point become 'old' tech.
And to answer the original question, yes performance decreases if the game is designed for PC/Console rather then just PC...that is because the game must be designed with the weaker systems' requirements in mind primarily - so the PC version will be limited because the game was co-developed alongside a console.
Originally posted by Lord.BachusThey dont loose quallity....but they are limmited in options by doing so... Developing a pc only game alllows much more freedom for your interface and graphics... I would never play an mmo on a console, because not having a keyboard kills so much of the social aspect of an mmo.
You can use a keyboard on consoles
yes, but since noboddy does, it effectively ruins the community feeling..
Ah, the classic argument of "I know exactly what EVERY single player in the entire game is thinking so Im right and you're wrong".
That's not what he said. He said nobody uses the keyboard on consoles which is pretty much true. Most console games don't support the keyboard/mouse and, of the ones that do, very few actually use it, if for no other reasons that it is rather inconvenient to use in most living room or gaming room environments.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by XiaokiOriginally posted by Lord.BachusOriginally posted by ElRenmazuoOriginally posted by Lord.BachusThey dont loose quallity....but they are limmited in options by doing so... Developing a pc only game alllows much more freedom for your interface and graphics... I would never play an mmo on a console, because not having a keyboard kills so much of the social aspect of an mmo.
You can use a keyboard on consolesyes, but since noboddy does, it effectively ruins the community feeling..Ah, the classic argument of "I know exactly what EVERY single player in the entire game is thinking so Im right and you're wrong".That's not what he said. He said nobody uses the keyboard on consoles which is pretty much true. Most console games don't support the keyboard/mouse and, of the ones that do, very few actually use it, if for no other reasons that it is rather inconvenient to use in most living room or gaming room environments. No, you are misunderstanding what he said.
He is aware that console MMOs can use keyboards but he asserts that no one playing MMOs on a console uses a keyboard and because no one uses keyboards while playing MMOs on a console it ruins the community because no one types anything.
Originally posted by Lord.BachusThey dont loose quallity....but they are limmited in options by doing so... Developing a pc only game alllows much more freedom for your interface and graphics... I would never play an mmo on a console, because not having a keyboard kills so much of the social aspect of an mmo.
You can use a keyboard on consoles
yes, but since noboddy does, it effectively ruins the community feeling..
Ah, the classic argument of "I know exactly what EVERY single player in the entire game is thinking so Im right and you're wrong".
That's not what he said. He said nobody uses the keyboard on consoles which is pretty much true. Most console games don't support the keyboard/mouse and, of the ones that do, very few actually use it, if for no other reasons that it is rather inconvenient to use in most living room or gaming room environments.
No, you are misunderstanding what he said.
He is aware that console MMOs can use keyboards but he asserts that no one playing MMOs on a console uses a keyboard and because no one uses keyboards while playing MMOs on a console it ruins the community because no one types anything.
Which, is absolutely false.
Really not hard to comprehend.
Are you suggesting that the lack of communication (in some cases, the inability to effectively communicate) has no effect on the existence or health of the community, or are you suggesting that the players are effectively working toward community in other ways? ?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
False, you can use a keyboard for normal tasks but not for gameplay unless the game (which almost NONE are) is made to allow it.
You have to buy 3rd party hardware/software to emulate a controller with keyboard/mouse on consoles, but it can be buggy or glitchy sometimes since the game still thinks you're using a console controller.
The biggest design issue I see is UI and menu navigation. Its just way easier and faster to click through your recipe lists with a mouse than with an analog stick or d-pad.
You can use a kb with a console, but that means putting down the controller to do so. Its more intuitive on a pc because the kb servers as both your controller and your communication device.
Neither of these things are deal breakers or a true loss in quality imho. Just means that a dev has to keep that in mind when designing their UI and menu systems etc.
To scale the specs, yes, but to develop the game - even thought a PC is being used as the tool to develop the game, and actually in spite of that fact - it's easier to build the gameplay and UI for console and convert to PC than it is to build it for the PC and then redesign it for console. That is why you see so many of the cross-platform games over the past few years with a decidedly console-leaning look and feel to them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I have played games that were obviously made with the console in mind first, but I've never played a game on the console that was obviously made with the PC in mind first. Of the "console ports" I've played, none of them play as well using keyboard and mouse as they do when I use my controller. This makes me think there's something to writing for a console first, and a PC second.
Thinking about it in the abstract, if you wrote WoW with the 84 keybinds that are available, there's no way to conveniently fit that into a console control scheme. It would make for a much easier transition to write something for the console control scheme first, even if the game is going to release on both platforms.
Unless the developer has the resources to write separate games, it makes much more sense to write one game that starts with a common denominator for all platforms, and then expand the platforms where possible.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I agree that it certainly affects the design of the game. They must take into account factors specific to consoles when developing for both. Some might argue that the graphical quality will be compromised because of console limitations, but I don't agree that this is the case anymore. PS4 and XB1 are equivalent or higher in capability to mid range gaming PCs, which is the target anyway. The biggest influence on the design would be the controller. It's hard to come up with a good solution but I think FF14 did a good job and ESO probably will too. Communication would remain more difficult than on PC, but communities still form around many console games, like the Souls games, Halo, and COD for example.
So as far as quality of the game, I would say no. They can still produce a high quality and fun game. Only communication would be affected.
LOL thanx for pointing this out! I was about to.
For sure I want 157 skills etc. per instance :P
How many of those will you want to use at one time? Probably less than 10, for sure less than 20. As for having the rest it might mean scrolling thru an extra screen or two but essentially theres no limit to the skills on either, just a limit to how many are easily accessible when needed. And a controller generally has that covered in most cases. I agree though that EVE makes a beter PC game. I actually think the big strategy games like the Civ games etc. and also EVE online are best sutied for PC. I think if you want an action MMO tho, then it might do better on a console.
And that is really the only issue here. Controller vs keyboard. Does the game really need fast access to 150+ actions? No? Then it should play reasonably well with a controller, and sub menus.
Plus most people missed Phaserlights post where he mentioned the difference between a game "developed" for both consoles and a game "ported" . Big difference.
But of course people here just want to get into the old console vs. PC war. IMO if you call yourself a true gamer, you won't care if it is PC or console, but simply look at the game itself.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
That is exactly the issue we are facing here (at least up to this point in time).
We can look at the game and see it is dumped down. We can then either blame the dev's for failing, or the console. It is easier to blame the console, since current gen consoles LISTEN to what you say... current gen Dev's don't ;-)
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
yes, but since noboddy does, it effectively ruins the community feeling..
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I agree with you.
However it could just be that a truly social MMO has not been made for the consoles yet. If one was, a keyboard might become a more popular addition. PC users might be hoping that never happens tho as it would really narrow the playing field in that case.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I payed for DC Universe Online for PC, and while I'm an avid PC gamer something felt so choppy about the physics, not referring to lag.
Once DC Universe was brought to PS3 I tried it out and was quick to proclaim how the controls translated so much better to console than it ever did on the PC.
I don't think mmos lose quality when they're developed for both PC and Console, I enjoy FPS's like Call of Duty on both but I'm more frequent with my PC because I prefer mouse+keyboard for that type of game. So it's all rather subjective for me.
A little of both, in my opinion. Consoles do not have the capabilities that PCs have. Sure, a player can buy a keyboard for their console, but the average consoler does not have or do this. Without those keyboardless players, why even go there?
The bigger the market, the simpler a game needs to be in order to draw that market in. "Lowest Common Denominator" is not just a passing fancy phrase. It has been proven many times over. The most popular of anything is not always the best, or most complicated.
When a game announces that it is going to console, I see right through their marketing ploy, which is, "GIMME MOAR MONEH!" Consoles bring nothing to the table that PCs can not do much better, with the exception of numbers and dollars.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The problem is consoles don`t have many button, so they must only allow a few skills on their bar... not 30+ skills like the older mmo`s had.
In single player games they can have a wheel and you can change them while pausing the game, but in MMO`s they must limit you to a few active skills at once.
And on my opinion this sucks and is the reason i won`t be buying any new MMO doing that.
Smile
Well, if you look alone at single player/multiplayer games there is definately a huge quality loss if the game was produced for consoles and PC in comparison to games just for a PC. This is probably true for mmorpgs aswell.
I have had not great expiriences with console/pc games and if you look at the current releases:
X-Rebirth is just one example, where the community actually noticed how simplified the game is dumped down in comparison to the versions just for PC. You really see and feel if a game is developed for consoles aswell and this with a negative touch.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Those games did hurt, absolutely. The graphics, AI, and difficulty were all toned way down to appeal to a mass audience.
For bigger games, look at the difference between PC and Console battlefield. Consoles simply can't do what PCs can. In an MMO setting, when devs don't want big differences between the games, this means the PC version suffers.
yes, but since noboddy does, it effectively ruins the community feeling..
Ah, the classic argument of "I know exactly what EVERY single player in the entire game is thinking so Im right and you're wrong".
Nice one.
It seems that in this thread people are blaming recent MMO trends on consoles even though 99% of recent MMOs are PC exclusive and had no intention of ever being on consoles.
Look at Neverwinter. Pretty much everything this topic is blaming on consoles but is PC exclusive.
Maybe the MMO genre as a whole is moving towards a new era. I mean, did people really expect the EQ style gameplay would be the standard for MMOs forever?
Do mmos lose quality when they're developed for both pc and console?
Dc Universe Online when launched answers that question.
PC (Superior hardware options, unlimited amount of physical RAM, Multiple drop-in GPU setups)
vs
Console (Fixed internal hardware options, limited and fixed amount of physical RAM, cannot switch out vendor supplied GPU or add GPU's, in this gen. case AMD's dual GPU/CPU "APUS").
The whole new generation of consoles will at some point become 'old' tech.
And to answer the original question, yes performance decreases if the game is designed for PC/Console rather then just PC...that is because the game must be designed with the weaker systems' requirements in mind primarily - so the PC version will be limited because the game was co-developed alongside a console.
That's not what he said. He said nobody uses the keyboard on consoles which is pretty much true. Most console games don't support the keyboard/mouse and, of the ones that do, very few actually use it, if for no other reasons that it is rather inconvenient to use in most living room or gaming room environments.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
yes, but since noboddy does, it effectively ruins the community feeling..
Ah, the classic argument of "I know exactly what EVERY single player in the entire game is thinking so Im right and you're wrong".
That's not what he said. He said nobody uses the keyboard on consoles which is pretty much true. Most console games don't support the keyboard/mouse and, of the ones that do, very few actually use it, if for no other reasons that it is rather inconvenient to use in most living room or gaming room environments.
No, you are misunderstanding what he said.
He is aware that console MMOs can use keyboards but he asserts that no one playing MMOs on a console uses a keyboard and because no one uses keyboards while playing MMOs on a console it ruins the community because no one types anything.
Which, is absolutely false.
Really not hard to comprehend.
Are you suggesting that the lack of communication (in some cases, the inability to effectively communicate) has no effect on the existence or health of the community, or are you suggesting that the players are effectively working toward community in other ways? ?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre