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2.1 Progression changes

drivendawndrivendawn Member RarePosts: 2,127

From Yoshida posted today

Upcoming Changes to Allagan Tomestone Acquisition

Producer and director Yoshi-P here.

Recently, we've noticed a number of threads discussing the weekly limit on Allagan tomestones of mythology. I'd like to talk about the reasons for this limit, as well as changes coming in patch 2.1 that will affect their acquisition.

Progression in FFXIV

As you'd expect, there are many more factors to consider when designing an MMORPG like FFXIV, compared to a stand-alone console game. These factors heavily influence combat design and balance.

Each encounter in FFXIV: ARR is crafted with a particular difficulty in mind. As players grow stronger by increasing their level, they will be able to complete early encounters. However, upon reaching level 50, players who wish to become even more powerful and tackle the hardest challenges must instead obtain better gear, thus increasing their item level. The time required to do so is dictated either by drop rates, or by the rate at which tomestones can be acquired, depending on the gear being sought.

Progression can therefore be described as follows:

  • Players reach level 50 while clearing the main scenario.

  • Upon reaching level 50, players begin acquiring gear to raise their item level.

  • Players take on encounters appropriate for their item level, acquiring new gear.

  • Upon acquiring new gear, players raise their item level, allowing them to challenge more difficult encounters.

Our ultimate goal is to give players the freedom to advance at their own pace. Having said that, the current design has room for improvement, which is why we will be implementing changes with patch 2.1.

Expectations for Progression Until Patch 2.1

From the initial release of FFXIV: ARR, we predicted it would take roughly a month and a half for the most dedicated players to reach the Binding of Coil of Bahamut, and roughly two months for the general player population. Furthermore, we wanted players to acquire gear using Allagan tomestones of mythology in tandem with clearing the Binding Coil. This served as the basis for determining the rate at which tomestones can be earned, which is currently limited to 300 tomestones of mythology per week. With the release of patch 2.1, this limit will be increased to about 450 tomestones per week, for reasons which will be explained at the end.

The Two Paths for Player Progression

One unique quality of MMORPGs is that, depending on how much time they have to play, a disparity between players can easily emerge. For example, let's say player A plays two hours per day, and player B plays five hours per day. After a week, there's a difference of 21 hours, after five weeks a difference of 105 hours, and after ten weeks a difference of 210 hours. MMORPGs are designed to be played over a long period of time, and as such, this gap between players will only increase as time goes on. This inevitably leads to several problems:

  • It becomes difficult for new players to join.

  • Casual players are likely to lose motivation to play.

  • The community is likely to become fragmented.

In an attempt to combat these trends, and also to encourage users to continue playing, most developers of the first generation of MMORPGs decided that items should only a fraction of the time. Because the chance of obtaining items was so low, it took a relatively long amount of time to obtain gear, meaning users would play longer.

However, when considering the lifestyle of users in today's market, the freedom to play at a more leisurely pace is essential. With no option but to continue running through instances, with no guarantee that the desired can be obtained, users are more likely to become stressed and stop playing all together.

These concerns led to the birth of the token system, which we have adopted for FFXIV: ARR. The merit of this system is that, although there is a limit on tomestone acquisition, users are guaranteed to obtain desired items after obtaining a set number of tokens.

Because every duty in ARR offers a set number of tomestones, players can easily determine how many instances they need to clear and how much time it will take. They can then play at their own pace to acquire the gear they desire. Furthermore, the more difficult encounters also incorporate a more traditional system of drop rewards. This offers players two options:

  • Play through the Binding Coil of Bahamut and obtain gear from drops.

  • Collect Allagan tomestones of mythology to exchange for gear.

  • Although these methods are different, each allows for the acquisition of level 90 gear.

In short, players who have ample time to play are free to collect tomestones, or challenge the Binding Coil, and those who have less time can still acquire tomestones at their leisure. Despite the difference in time available to players, the game is designed so that everyone can potentially obtain item level 90 gear.

However, please bear in mind that high-item-level gear alone may not enough to overcome some challenges. Because of the armory system’s design, end game encounters have been balanced for players who have not only leveled one job to 50, but who have also obtained abilities from other classes. That being said, we have no plans to make multiple jobs a requirement.

Providing Additional Paths for Player Progression

There's one key problem with the encounters available in 2.0: the limited number of options leads to linear progression for battle classes, and essentially leaves crafters and gathers by the wayside.

To be more specific, players are being pressured to join a party to play through a limited selection of instances for tomestones; there are few, if any, options for those who wish to collect them leisurely, efficiently, or even alone. Patch 2.1 will serve as a means to resolve this problem, giving players many more options to collect tomestones and play as they see fit.

Here is an example of how the upcoming update will appeal to more players:

Beast Tribe Quests

  • Learn about the beast tribes in daily quests and acquire tomestones.

Treasure Hunts

  • Search for buried treasure with up to four players and obtain crafting material, consumable items, and tomestones.

Duty Roulette

  • Join a duty at random and receive bonus tomestones and experience points.

Housing

  • Build and furnish a home with the aid of Eorzea's crafters and gatherers, or use your own skills to do the same.

Wolves' Den

  • Test your combat skills against your fellow players, earning fame and fortune.

Crystal Tower

  • Challenge an ancient tower with 23 of your strongest allies and face the dangers within.

Pharos Sirius

  • Explore an abandoned lighthouse to obtain new gear and tomestones.

Two Hard Mode Dungeons

  • Face greater dangers to obtain new gear and tomestones.

Aesthetician

  • Keep your characters fresh by changing their appearance.

Extreme Primal Battles and Good King Moggle Mog

  • Confront a mysterious new enemy and three familiar foes to obtain new gear and tomestones.

New Main Scenario Quests

  • Work together with the Scions of the Seventh Dawn for the sake of Eorzea.

New Side Quests

  • Take part in additional side stories to learn more about the peoples and cultures of Eorzea.

As you can see, this upcoming update will add more options for adventuring alone or in a group; the means to challenge other players in PvP; more incentive to craft, gather, and collect items; and new chapters in the game's ongoing story.

Patch 2.2 will introduce the next section of the Binding Coil of Bahamut, and we highly encourage players seeking a challenge to prepare for the new dangers ahead. To those of you have obtained all available gear in the Binding Coil, we hope you'll give the Wolves' Den a try and see how you fare against your fellow dungeon runners.

Raising the Tomestone Cap in 2.1

As I explained previously, because there are only a few ways to acquire tomestones, players have had no choice but to run the same dungeons over and over. While there are those who are fine with the current state of affairs, there are others who dislike the limit, as well as those who feel obligated to hit the weekly cap.

A. Players who dislike the limit:

  • -> “Once I reach the weekly cap, there's nothing else to do. If the limit was raised or removed, I would have a reason to play more.”

B. Players who feel obligated to hit the cap

  • -> “If I don't hit the weekly cap, I’ll fall behind. But having only a handful of dungeons is boring. I just want it over with fast.” If we were to increase the weekly limit before patch 2.1, players who fall under category B would increase significantly. To satisfy both types of players, we feel it best to prioritize giving players more options.

I realize patch 2.1 was originally scheduled to be released in November, but due to problems with server congestion, and the need for server and system improvements, we were forced to delay the release one month. However, I assure you that the wait will be worth it, as the upcoming patch will not only include plenty of new content, but also improvements to the user interface and additional system updates.

There have been several posts asking why we have not split patch 2.1 into several smaller updates, the answer to which can be found in a recent post here on the forum.

 

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Comments

  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798

    i always expected the 2.1 patch to be in December

     its ok for the first major patch to take longer than expected

     

    http://segmentnext.com/2013/11/20/naoki-yoshida-talks-ffxiv-arr-patch-2-1-changes-release-date-and-delays/

    Addressing a possible exodus from the game, Yoshida acknowledged the risk and said they were keeping a close eye on the forums but thinks it’s better not to split the patch and avoid causing balance issues.

    Patch 2.1 will add new content, refine and balance the combat, crafting, gathering and introduce the PVP mode, housing, content for solo players.

     

  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 6,885


    Originally posted by Nadia
    i always expected the 2.1 patch to be in December its ok for the first major patch to take longer than expected http://segmentnext.com/2013/11/20/naoki-yoshida-talks-ffxiv-arr-patch-2-1-changes-release-date-and-delays/Addressing a possible exodus from the game, Yoshida acknowledged the risk and said they were keeping a close eye on the forums but thinks it’s better not to split the patch and avoid causing balance issues.Patch 2.1 will add new content, refine and balance the combat, crafting, gathering and introduce the PVP mode, housing, content for solo players. 

    I agree - it's late, but they have been pretty good about communication about it. It's not so late that I feel they are just blowing smoke, or think they are just hyping up a crappy content patch.

    It's late, they are up front about it and are being communicative regarding the content and the progress. They've mentioned features they've had to cut or postpone until the next patch, rather than the patch just show up and a lot of stuff that had been talked about just isn't there.

    I'm ok with it. If it starts to get pushed back into Jan/Feb.. then I'll start to worry a bit.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,619

    Its a ton of content they are adding. I like it this way tbh. I know other devs like to add small amounts more frequently, but it doesn't carry the same boom as much larger updates less often.

    Really looking forward to this patch.

  • JustsomenoobJustsomenoob Member UncommonPosts: 877

    Sounds good

    I don't find baha coil very fun, so allowin 450 vs 300 myth tokens so I can gear an alt class easier sounds good to me.

  • Yodi2007Yodi2007 Member Posts: 167

    The no crafting items the same or about the same level will not be implemented! 

     

    WTF! why are do we even have crafting classes? Just take all crafting classes out! Crafting is what made FFXI unique. I don't expect mirror images of lvl 90 gear but something about near it. His statement on crafting has wrecked my morale :(

    Below is where we can disscuss and come up with new ideas for Sandparks!

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5164689#5164689

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,619


    Originally posted by Yodi2007
    The no crafting items the same or about the same level will not be implemented!  WTF! why are do we even have crafting classes? Just take all crafting classes out! Crafting is what made FFXI unique. I don't expect mirror images of lvl 90 gear but something about near it. His statement on crafting has wrecked my morale :(

    wtf are you talking about?

  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 6,885


    Originally posted by Yodi2007
    The no crafting items the same or about the same level will not be implemented! 

     

    WTF! why are do we even have crafting classes? Just take all crafting classes out! Crafting is what made FFXI unique. I don't expect mirror images of lvl 90 gear but something about near it. His statement on crafting has wrecked my morale :(


    I agree with Yoshi on this one, mostly. Crafters should not be able to sell BIS gear. I do think crafters should be able to craft something that is BIS equivalent (and 2-star is pretty good when overmelded); however, I think when it reaches that level of quality it also should not be tradable. It's fine for the crafter to make it for themselves, but not for the marketplace. I don't think, that even with a restriction on trading, that crafted gear should be the only BIS item for a slot - because then leveling that craft becomes (nearly) mandatory, but I agree with it being an option.

    The flip side to that is, I think the entry level gear should all be able to be crafted. As it stands right now, that's pretty close. If you had a full set of melded 2-star, you'd do pretty well in Coil 1. It may not be BIS compared to iLvl 90 stuff, but is't competitive versus DL for certain-- with the current itemization.

    You want to start raiding - crafted gets you started in entry-level content. You want THE BEST for absolute endgame, it's earned either via self-crafting or raiding.

  • Yodi2007Yodi2007 Member Posts: 167

    I can agree partly to but running instances over and over are tiresome. It what burnt me out in WoW and GW2. I have a 50 GSM, ALC, MIN, WVR, LTW, BSM, and a 47 BOT. classes that are basicly useless depending on how housing implementation goes. If it goes the same route as crafting personal gear and weapons (only getting the best items in dungeons) , then I'm going to give up on MMO's and return to single player games. :(

    Below is where we can disscuss and come up with new ideas for Sandparks!

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5164689#5164689

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,619


    Originally posted by Yodi2007
    I can agree partly to but running instances over and over are tiresome. It what burnt me out in WoW and GW2. I have a 50 GSM, ALC, MIN, WVR, LTW, BSM, and a 47 BOT. classes that are basicly useless depending on how housing implementation goes. If it goes the same route as crafting personal gear and weapons (only getting the best items in dungeons) , then I'm going to give up on MMO's and return to single player games. :(
    again, what are you talking about?
  • Yodi2007Yodi2007 Member Posts: 167
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Yodi2007
    I can agree partly to but running instances over and over are tiresome. It what burnt me out in WoW and GW2. I have a 50 GSM, ALC, MIN, WVR, LTW, BSM, and a 47 BOT. classes that are basicly useless depending on how housing implementation goes. If it goes the same route as crafting personal gear and weapons (only getting the best items in dungeons) , then I'm going to give up on MMO's and return to single player games. :(

    again, what are you talking about?

     

    About how the producer announced his reasons on why crafted gear will never be better or a step or two below the Best gear. besides the Vanya set nothing else is really worth selling. Many games now a days view crafting as a third rate virtual hobby.

    Below is where we can disscuss and come up with new ideas for Sandparks!

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5164689#5164689

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,619


    Originally posted by Yodi2007
    Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by Yodi2007 I can agree partly to but running instances over and over are tiresome. It what burnt me out in WoW and GW2. I have a 50 GSM, ALC, MIN, WVR, LTW, BSM, and a 47 BOT. classes that are basicly useless depending on how housing implementation goes. If it goes the same route as crafting personal gear and weapons (only getting the best items in dungeons) , then I'm going to give up on MMO's and return to single player games. :(
    again, what are you talking about?  
    About how the producer announced his reasons on why crafted gear will never be better or a step or two below the Best gear. besides the Vanya set nothing else is really worth selling. Many games now a days view crafting as a third rate virtual hobby.

    I guess if you ignore 99% of the other things that make crafting valuable in this game, then yeah you'd have that view.

    Ignoring best in slot gear for all classes level 1-49 is crafted.
    Ignore the constant demand for consumable crafting classes (Cullinarian and Alchemist)
    Ignore the fact that Yoshi already stated that 85% of all home decor and furnishings will be crafted.
    Ignore that the best crafting and gathering gear is 100% crafted.
    Ignore the best crafted combat gear is within a few % of the best raid gear.
    Ignore the fact that the best raid drops are not actually best in slot until a crafting class melds them fully.

    I think you are playing this game with eyes wide shut and that is unfortunate since you seem to insist to make blanket statements about a game you refuse to see all of.

  • Yodi2007Yodi2007 Member Posts: 167
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Yodi2007

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by Yodi2007 I can agree partly to but running instances over and over are tiresome. It what burnt me out in WoW and GW2. I have a 50 GSM, ALC, MIN, WVR, LTW, BSM, and a 47 BOT. classes that are basicly useless depending on how housing implementation goes. If it goes the same route as crafting personal gear and weapons (only getting the best items in dungeons) , then I'm going to give up on MMO's and return to single player games. :(
    again, what are you talking about?  
    About how the producer announced his reasons on why crafted gear will never be better or a step or two below the Best gear. besides the Vanya set nothing else is really worth selling. Many games now a days view crafting as a third rate virtual hobby.

     

    I guess if you ignore 99% of the other things that make crafting valuable in this game, then yeah you'd have that view.

    Ignoring best in slot gear for all classes level 1-49 is crafted.
    Ignore the constant demand for consumable crafting classes (Cullinarian and Alchemist)
    Ignore the fact that Yoshi already stated that 85% of all home decor and furnishings will be crafted.
    Ignore that the best crafting and gathering gear is 100% crafted.
    Ignore the best crafted combat gear is within a few % of the best raid gear.
    Ignore the fact that the best raid drops are not actually best in slot until a crafting class melds them fully.

    I think you are playing this game with eyes wide shut and that is unfortunate since you seem to insist to make blanket statements about a game you refuse to see all of.

     

    I read all of it. First off gear 1-49 is acquired easily through Leve-Quests 

    Next Most people are doing Fate parties so they wont spend the money on 1-49

    Alchemist is useless since 2.0 went live

    Cullinarian is the only craft that will always make some coin

    Crafting and Gathering gear makes you no money now even the HQ ones you will break even with your own mats farmed.

    Again you need to run the Dungeons 8-10 times in order to get the token items to make the one piece of gear for your class

    Token gear cannot be melded.

     

    My eyes are wide opened but Im viewing from a crafters persepective. I have a 50 PLD, 50 MNK (another useless class), and 50 WHM. I can run dungeons easily also i just refuse to do the carrot on a stick Model again. My love for the FF series is what keeps me playing for now.

    Below is where we can disscuss and come up with new ideas for Sandparks!

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5164689#5164689

  • HyanmenHyanmen Member UncommonPosts: 5,357
    Originally posted by Yodi2007
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Yodi2007

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by Yodi2007 I can agree partly to but running instances over and over are tiresome. It what burnt me out in WoW and GW2. I have a 50 GSM, ALC, MIN, WVR, LTW, BSM, and a 47 BOT. classes that are basicly useless depending on how housing implementation goes. If it goes the same route as crafting personal gear and weapons (only getting the best items in dungeons) , then I'm going to give up on MMO's and return to single player games. :(
    again, what are you talking about?  
    About how the producer announced his reasons on why crafted gear will never be better or a step or two below the Best gear. besides the Vanya set nothing else is really worth selling. Many games now a days view crafting as a third rate virtual hobby.

     

    I guess if you ignore 99% of the other things that make crafting valuable in this game, then yeah you'd have that view.

    Ignoring best in slot gear for all classes level 1-49 is crafted.
    Ignore the constant demand for consumable crafting classes (Cullinarian and Alchemist)
    Ignore the fact that Yoshi already stated that 85% of all home decor and furnishings will be crafted.
    Ignore that the best crafting and gathering gear is 100% crafted.
    Ignore the best crafted combat gear is within a few % of the best raid gear.
    Ignore the fact that the best raid drops are not actually best in slot until a crafting class melds them fully.

    I think you are playing this game with eyes wide shut and that is unfortunate since you seem to insist to make blanket statements about a game you refuse to see all of.

     

    I read all of it. First off gear 1-49 is acquired easily through Leve-Quests 

    Next Most people are doing Fate parties so they wont spend the money on 1-49

    Alchemist is useless since 2.0 went live

    Cullinarian is the only craft that will always make some coin

    Crafting and Gathering gear makes you no money now even the HQ ones you will break even with your own mats farmed.

    Again you need to run the Dungeons 8-10 times in order to get the token items to make the one piece of gear for your class

    Token gear cannot be melded.

     

    My eyes are wide opened but Im viewing from a crafters persepective. I have a 50 PLD, 50 MNK (another useless class), and 50 WHM. I can run dungeons easily also i just refuse to do the carrot on a stick Model again. My love for the FF series is what keeps me playing for now.

    That's funny, considering

    1) The producer has said multiple times that dungeon grinding will be superior to FATE parties in 2.1

    2) PvP and Housing systems will boost crafting demand across all crafts considerably as explained by the producer

    3) I've been making tons of money ever since level 10 of any craft with no signs of stopping months into the game's life. "No money to be made" = universal truth or complete denial of someone who is incapable? My personal experience spits that claim in the face.

    4) Craftable dungeon gear can be bought, thus increasing the demand for it the wealthier you are.

    You just want to believe whatever you want. Reminds me of the people saying huge deflation is taking place. While the only thing deflating was these people's credibility.

    Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
  • sumnayinsumnayin Member UncommonPosts: 19

    So the basic plan is to make raiding obsolete, wow that's fun....guess I will really be done with this game.  I was on the line because I figured new content would add something that people can't get just by collecting tomes.  Now I see the new content is all under level 90, and free 90 gear is easier to get.

     

    I don't play games because I want everyone to wear the same thing and have the same stuff, I play MMO's because I want to have nicer things than other people because I PUT THE EFFORT into getting it.

  • AlamarethAlamareth Member UncommonPosts: 570
    Originally posted by sumnayin

    So the basic plan is to make raiding obsolete, wow that's fun....guess I will really be done with this game.  I was on the line because I figured new content would add something that people can't get just by collecting tomes.  Now I see the new content is all under level 90, and free 90 gear is easier to get.

     

    I don't play games because I want everyone to wear the same thing and have the same stuff, I play MMO's because I want to have nicer things than other people because I PUT THE EFFORT into getting it.

    I guess you didn't read anything about 2.1, because your response makes absolutely no sense.

    How, exactly, does this patch make raiding obsolete?  The best gear in the game is only obtainable from BCoB.  Period.  Nothing matches it.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,619


    Originally posted by sumnayin
    I don't play games because I want everyone to wear the same thing and have the same stuff, I play MMO's because I want to have nicer things than other people because I PUT THE EFFORT into getting it.

    I'm just glad Yoshida does not share your zero sum philosophy on game design.

  • SephrinxSephrinx Member UncommonPosts: 83

    Setting a cap on the rate at which one can acquire gear is absurdly stupid, and just wrong. It's artificially prolonging game life, due to limiting your progression with a wall so to speak. Give people the ability to acquire 8000 'Tomestones' per week and see what happens.

     

    Any game that uses Tokens/Currency for end game is just a charity. You get 1 piece or so a week, regardless. End of subject. I do not like that philosophy one bit. I want to have to run a raid 5-7 times before I get an item, I want to help my friends and guild mates get their gear and upgrades while I get mine. I want a challenging dungeon, with equal rewards. I don't want to play whack a mole until I have enough tokens to buy my prize. That is just dumb. 

     

    From this patch notes it seems that people are already starting to leave the game as it is no challenge, and little reward for playing it.. idk, something about it just bodes ill...

    imageimageimageimage

  • gatherisgatheris Member UncommonPosts: 1,016

    guild housing isn't going to keep me in game where individual housing would - will be long gone before that happens (if ever apparently)

    although limited use storage of housing is not encouraging - i understand the server issues with all that data, just feels like amateur hour

    image

  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,096

    I am not returning to FFXIV for two reasons.

    1.) Because no freedom to re-customize characters within housing as I asked and said the way it should be when you enter you're house you can click a button and re-customize no GIL charge 100% FREE.

    2.) Because of the new Cap's on Tomes, I am not interested because they are limiting me based on how much I play per day/week, they should not limit their paying customers I would likely start playing again if the game did not have any restrictions at all.

    Who cares if a player can play more than others the moment you introduce limits on tomes, or currency I am leaving the game, or avoiding the game.

    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/104526-armory-system-useless-Mythology-Cap?p=1598425&posted=1#post1598425

    I posted it there as well, FFXIV was a great game when it was launched except for the customization issues, now they are limit players more just because some play more than others and such.

  • cranthugcranthug Member UncommonPosts: 82
    Originally posted by Sephrinx

    Setting a cap on the rate at which one can acquire gear is absurdly stupid, and just wrong. It's artificially prolonging game life, due to limiting your progression with a wall so to speak. Give people the ability to acquire 8000 'Tomestones' per week and see what happens.

     

    Any game that uses Tokens/Currency for end game is just a charity. You get 1 piece or so a week, regardless. End of subject. I do not like that philosophy one bit. I want to have to run a raid 5-7 times before I get an item, I want to help my friends and guild mates get their gear and upgrades while I get mine. I want a challenging dungeon, with equal rewards. I don't want to play whack a mole until I have enough tokens to buy my prize. That is just dumb. 

     

    From this patch notes it seems that people are already starting to leave the game as it is no challenge, and little reward for playing it.. idk, something about it just bodes ill...

    Yes, Titan extreme appears to be very simple.  It looks as if they will just be giving these ilvl 90 weapons out for free very soon!  I imagine there will be no cries on their official forums to nerf the difficulty level, does not appear to be challenging at all :P

    Luckily for you however, the secondary stats on Allagan pieces differ from most of what is available via myth tomes.  If you would like your character to be the best it can be, by all means continue raiding every week for drops.  Or go ahead and get your freebie AF2 pieces with that oh so valuable spell speed on it!  You aren't just spending tomes for the sake of spending them, you are spending them on BiS pieces. 

    If you want to take serious stabs at Twintania, you have to be able to achieve a certain level of stats...Vitality especially.  So what happens when you are unlucky with drops for months?  Your pants dont drop, your circlet doesnt drop, your boots and gloves dont drop...the other 7 people in your group should be made to wait for forward progress because you are an unlucky bastard?  haha  I would take something to show for my months of effort over waiting on drops any day. 

  • SephrinxSephrinx Member UncommonPosts: 83

    You deal with it and your bad luck and unfortunate Randomness. There will be other things you acquire from these runs, aside from just a simple loot drop. Maybe I am just old school in my beliefs of how an MMO should work. It's not about "Attending" to get loot, it's about completing and repeating too get loot. It shouldn't be an arcade style loot system, where you shoot your water pistol at 11 inflatable rubber pigs and then get your tokens to get your loot. I don't know, I just don't like that, especially when they say "Whoa whoa whoa, you need to shoot this rubber pig 16 times, but you can only do it 10 times this week."

    That is absolutely infuriating. Why give such as system? Just doesn't make sense too me as an End-game design. I would rather run 4-5 different raids and hope for drop, which until you only need 2-3 pieces, you will almost surely get an upgrade at least once per week, if not more if you are lucky. Never in my life have I gone more than a week without an upgrade, unless I was already stacked to high heaven and was just farming the area for guildies and materials and what not. Not to mention you literally can use every item for any class in this game. If you aren't able to get one drop from a raid, you aren't in the right guild. 

    imageimageimageimage

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,619


    Originally posted by Sephrinx
    You deal with it and your bad luck and unfortunate Randomness. There will be other things you acquire from these runs, aside from just a simple loot drop. Maybe I am just old school in my beliefs of how an MMO should work. It's not about "Attending" to get loot, it's about completing and repeating too get loot. It shouldn't be an arcade style loot system, where you shoot your water pistol at 11 inflatable rubber pigs and then get your tokens to get your loot. I don't know, I just don't like that, especially when they say "Whoa whoa whoa, you need to shoot this rubber pig 16 times, but you can only do it 10 times this week."That is absolutely infuriating. Why give such as system? Just doesn't make sense too me as an End-game design. I would rather run 4-5 different raids and hope for drop, which until you only need 2-3 pieces, you will almost surely get an upgrade at least once per week, if not more if you are lucky. Never in my life have I gone more than a week without an upgrade, unless I was already stacked to high heaven and was just farming the area for guildies and materials and what not. Not to mention you literally can use every item for any class in this game. If you aren't able to get one drop from a raid, you aren't in the right guild. 

    Nah. I like it the way it is. Thanks for your opinion though.

  • cranthugcranthug Member UncommonPosts: 82
    Originally posted by Sephrinx

    You deal with it and your bad luck and unfortunate Randomness. There will be other things you acquire from these runs, aside from just a simple loot drop. Maybe I am just old school in my beliefs of how an MMO should work. It's not about "Attending" to get loot, it's about completing and repeating too get loot. It shouldn't be an arcade style loot system, where you shoot your water pistol at 11 inflatable rubber pigs and then get your tokens to get your loot. I don't know, I just don't like that, especially when they say "Whoa whoa whoa, you need to shoot this rubber pig 16 times, but you can only do it 10 times this week."

    That is absolutely infuriating. Why give such as system? Just doesn't make sense too me as an End-game design. I would rather run 4-5 different raids and hope for drop, which until you only need 2-3 pieces, you will almost surely get an upgrade at least once per week, if not more if you are lucky. Never in my life have I gone more than a week without an upgrade, unless I was already stacked to high heaven and was just farming the area for guildies and materials and what not. Not to mention you literally can use every item for any class in this game. If you aren't able to get one drop from a raid, you aren't in the right guild. 

    I mean this in the most respectful way possible...but your thoughts are boggling my mind :D

    I am a bit old school myself, I have competed against other classes for loot.  I have gone many raids without seeing an item fall into my hands in many games.  I don't raid for items I raid to get the satisfaction from downing bosses.  Going weeks without any gear to strengthen your main character is just bad.  Not only is that bad for your individual progress but also your guild by proxy.  Who wants an undergeared tank or healer in their raid group for example...?  Not getting anything to show from your effort is also far more likely to compel rage quits than having a token system in place. 

    This is a system that has become commonplace, because people want to avoid exactly what you are promoting...weeks and weeks of effort with nothing to show for it.  I can only think of one reason to be against it, that being that you are getting ilvl gear equivalent to the hardest raid in the game for running 8-10 lvl 50 4 man instances a week.  When they have more raid content...sure, I concede that getting loots from raiding alone could be a possiblity.  The game is brand spanking new though haha :D  I remember the pain of wanting full dreadmist in vanilla wow, I don't have the time to farm and farm hoping for RNG to go my way.  I put in the work to learn and master encounters I should be given the chance to progress.  My opinion of course, but I am all for tokens in any game.  Screw RNG!

    I don't really whack-a-mole much these days.  I get 150 myth tomes from turn 1-4.  I'll bust out a few speed runs for the remainder, but I also organize FC speed runs to collect tomes to craft loot with which the sales go to FC bank.

    Attending and getting loot isn't the issue.  The issue is repeatedly attending all the while trying to down the next tier of content.  It is just the nature of the beast, you HAVE to have x amount of stats to seriously attempt the last boss in game.  They give you the means to acquire those stats outside of loot drops....which btw I will mention were completely screwed up until a week ago as certain chests only dropped 4 different items...none of which were healer loot :D  That is something to rage about i guess hehe, but ah well.

    My guild is fine, but as I said the game is brand new.  People are in the same boat as me, needing on their class drops.  Sure we have greeds here and there but only because of the sheer amount of tank and melee dps drops that we were getting, a result of their broken loot tables.  My point is that if I am not leveling other classes but WHM, and I spend months attempting to gear up to beat the available content...I should have gear to show for it :) 

    I would be in full darklight STILL, months later haha, if not for myth gear.  Aside from earrings which I just got last week after they fixed the chests.  One item from BCOB in two months?!  This is only 8 people in a group...I have no competition on rolls the Scholar is waiting on his loot I wait on mine.  The items simply have not dropped haha...screw that noise!   A game is supposed to be fun!  Not a chore or a second job.  Should it require team effort to get the best items, yes!  But relying solely on RNG to progress your character is a dying mechanic I believe.

  • RPGForeverRPGForever Member UncommonPosts: 131
    Thanks for the information I think it is nice time to return to the game.

  • SephrinxSephrinx Member UncommonPosts: 83
    Originally posted by cranthug
    Originally posted by Sephrinx

    You deal with it and your bad luck and unfortunate Randomness. There will be other things you acquire from these runs, aside from just a simple loot drop. Maybe I am just old school in my beliefs of how an MMO should work. It's not about "Attending" to get loot, it's about completing and repeating too get loot. It shouldn't be an arcade style loot system, where you shoot your water pistol at 11 inflatable rubber pigs and then get your tokens to get your loot. I don't know, I just don't like that, especially when they say "Whoa whoa whoa, you need to shoot this rubber pig 16 times, but you can only do it 10 times this week."

    That is absolutely infuriating. Why give such as system? Just doesn't make sense too me as an End-game design. I would rather run 4-5 different raids and hope for drop, which until you only need 2-3 pieces, you will almost surely get an upgrade at least once per week, if not more if you are lucky. Never in my life have I gone more than a week without an upgrade, unless I was already stacked to high heaven and was just farming the area for guildies and materials and what not. Not to mention you literally can use every item for any class in this game. If you aren't able to get one drop from a raid, you aren't in the right guild. 

    I mean this in the most respectful way possible...but your thoughts are boggling my mind :D

    I am a bit old school myself, I have competed against other classes for loot.  I have gone many raids without seeing an item fall into my hands in many games.  I don't raid for items I raid to get the satisfaction from downing bosses.  Going weeks without any gear to strengthen your main character is just bad.  Not only is that bad for your individual progress but also your guild by proxy.  Who wants an undergeared tank or healer in their raid group for example...?  Not getting anything to show from your effort is also far more likely to compel rage quits than having a token system in place. 

    This is a system that has become commonplace, because people want to avoid exactly what you are promoting...weeks and weeks of effort with nothing to show for it.  I can only think of one reason to be against it, that being that you are getting ilvl gear equivalent to the hardest raid in the game for running 8-10 lvl 50 4 man instances a week.  When they have more raid content...sure, I concede that getting loots from raiding alone could be a possiblity.  The game is brand spanking new though haha :D  I remember the pain of wanting full dreadmist in vanilla wow, I don't have the time to farm and farm hoping for RNG to go my way.  I put in the work to learn and master encounters I should be given the chance to progress.  My opinion of course, but I am all for tokens in any game.  Screw RNG!

    I don't really whack-a-mole much these days.  I get 150 myth tomes from turn 1-4.  I'll bust out a few speed runs for the remainder, but I also organize FC speed runs to collect tomes to craft loot with which the sales go to FC bank.

    Attending and getting loot isn't the issue.  The issue is repeatedly attending all the while trying to down the next tier of content.  It is just the nature of the beast, you HAVE to have x amount of stats to seriously attempt the last boss in game.  They give you the means to acquire those stats outside of loot drops....which btw I will mention were completely screwed up until a week ago as certain chests only dropped 4 different items...none of which were healer loot :D  That is something to rage about i guess hehe, but ah well.

    My guild is fine, but as I said the game is brand new.  People are in the same boat as me, needing on their class drops.  Sure we have greeds here and there but only because of the sheer amount of tank and melee dps drops that we were getting, a result of their broken loot tables.  My point is that if I am not leveling other classes but WHM, and I spend months attempting to gear up to beat the available content...I should have gear to show for it :) 

    I would be in full darklight STILL, months later haha, if not for myth gear.  Aside from earrings which I just got last week after they fixed the chests.  One item from BCOB in two months?!  This is only 8 people in a group...I have no competition on rolls the Scholar is waiting on his loot I wait on mine.  The items simply have not dropped haha...screw that noise!   A game is supposed to be fun!  Not a chore or a second job.  Should it require team effort to get the best items, yes!  But relying solely on RNG to progress your character is a dying mechanic I believe.

     

    I agree with you too an extent. As long as you are getting loot from a dungeon, good. A few tokens here and there isn't going to kill it. But to solely rely upon them is stupid. I understand the game is new, it's been out what... 4 months barely? Maybe I have been tainted by the ease of mmo's as of late. The sheer simplicity of them as a whole is beyond simple, and takes all the reward out of the encounter. Tank, Spank, move boss 6 feet away from the fire, tank, spank, repeat. That isn't fun... I want that shit to be intense. I want to have to be on my toes at all times. Dodging the tailswipe, killing adds, cleansing the plague, controlling/maneuvering the boss and all the adds that spawn, etc. (I main tank if you couldn't tell) 

    There is nothing engaging about standing there face tanking a mob and waiting for it to die, barely moving the entire time... Granted I haven't played any endgame of this game, the highest I got was level 35, which was the cap in beta. I agree entirely that you should have gear to show for your efforts, but if broken loot tables are preventing that, I think some rebalancing needs to be done in that aspect. Yeah I have seen "That fucking rogue dagger AGAIN..." for a couple weeks in a row, not dropping my tank sword, but then when that thing does drop I pop the biggest wood this side of the mississippi and my reward center triggers in my brain and endorphins are released and god damnit if I'm not excited and amped up and craving more. But if I just grind that mob for 4 days and then go buy it... meh, cool. I got a new weapon... 

    Idk, it just doesn't feel the same. But acquiring new loot is a mainstay in all mmos, and if you aren't acquiring loot and you are just chasing the carrot on the stick, than life sucks and you get disheartened with the game and it stops being fun.

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