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No Pay To Win - Just one more marketing trap

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  • jcrg99jcrg99 Member UncommonPosts: 723
    Originally posted by turinmacleod

    WTF is the OP talking about?  

    I bought a ship (a Hornet).

     

     My friend Joe chooses not to support SC, as he wants to wait to see how it turns out.  

     

    On opening day I have a Hornet, Joe has a crappy Cloudhopper (TM), that I easily blow to ribbons in space combat.  Is that PTW?

     

     Given that Joe had the same options as I did, and choose not to utilize them, I would say No.  

     

    Also given that Joe can still, over time, gather the resources to obtain as good a ship as mine, or better even, I again say NO, not Pay to Win.

     

    Once again I find myself glad the OP is not going to play SC, and i sincerely hope that none of his friends play either, so I don't have to deal with this kind of crap.

     

    T

    Maybe Joe will buy the game without any ship and only with some credits (after completed SQ42) and will chose between basic ships, while you, between now and release, will buy 10 ships or more, different kinds of ships, not only basic level ships (I heard about a guy with 60 and that was months ago).

    The game is not only about dogfighting. Its also about enrichment and economic power making the difference and other things that does not involve only dogfighting, other objectives (and even in dogfighting you will have advantage due the ships that you buy now, and could use other pilots, NPC's to help you against Joe)

    LTI also helps people to recover more quickly than those that have to spend in-game money with such taxes. You lost the ship and do not need even to wait for the recovering. Go to you garage and get one of those 10 that you bought by real money to continue to make your in-game money. Real money mad the situation between you and Joe very unbalanced. And that fits with the pay2win concept. 

    Actually the impact is more big than people imagine. Because people starting with many ships will have this big economic advantage + Skill, since they are going to play from now until release, and we are talking about an unique universe, not many different universes.

    In the time that Joe achieve your earlier level or quantity of ships, you are going to be already way ahead of him, unless you quit the game, which is difficult to imagine the big fans doing that ever.

    The game is Pay2Win now. After release, for those who will buy after release, maybe the concept starts to fit (between them only and not between them and earlier pledgers, that acquire a big advantage over them WITH REAL MONEY, NOT WITH SKILL).

    If you still wants to believe that it is not, that does not matter. The advertising is wrong and advertising cannot be ambiguous, because it mislead people and ad which mislead people is against the law.

    Sometimes companies can claim that it was not their intention. But Chris Roberts said that KNEW that the concept was ambiguous, but still used that in their marketing. Here, in his speech, he confessed that used such word in purpose, knowing that it would mislead people.

    Maybe you cannot see any wrong with that, because you are a Chris Roberts fan. But for other kinds of buyers, trust must be earned, and at this case, CR did a disservice to that, showing that he cannot be reliable, because we can't be sure in what something that hes saying is just a profit interest or if that promise of exclusivity for some good to be bought in a "last opportunity" will be really accomplished. And by other kinds of buyers you have to put the majority of those 2 million players that he is planning or willing or announcing that is expecting so this game survives in the long term, as some of their earlier interviews shown.

     

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by Ender4

    The fact that he went out of his way to define what the ambiguous term he used means to him just shows that your entire post makes no sense at all. If he had come out and defended the finished game with this that would be one thing, defining it before ever releasing the game is nothing but a positive.

    It's 7 pages ago but ^this

    I really don't understand why anyone would create a thread when they answer their own question in it...not to mention act like you've caught him is some type of lie.

  • jcrg99jcrg99 Member UncommonPosts: 723
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Ender4

    The fact that he went out of his way to define what the ambiguous term he used means to him just shows that your entire post makes no sense at all. If he had come out and defended the finished game with this that would be one thing, defining it before ever releasing the game is nothing but a positive.

    It's 7 pages ago but ^this

    I really don't understand why anyone would create a thread when they answer their own question in it...not to mention act like you've caught him is some type of lie.

    Have you noticed that such "explanation" (where he actually told, "yes, I deceived people in purpose", basically, but using other words without noticing that) came in an interview and not in the Star Citizen descritpion. The place where you bought the copy of the game or neither in its advertising messages/web pages. It continued to have only the NO PAY TO WIN message, without any of such explanations.

    So, a hidden interview that escape from the eyes of the majority of people that won't go so deep in their investigation about the product, is enough then?

    By your logic, I could sell a milky, without any disclaimer about some elements causing bad reactions in some people in its package. I could just go to a local news, that has no relation with the stores were people buy the milk and tell about such danger. I should not bother to put some disclaimer in the milky package.

    Do you really think that you would save your ass of do not be considered by law, AND PEOPLE, as doing a mislead advertising here?

    You are also forgetting that such "explanation" was given very later, when they are already had "millions" in their pockets (if you want to believe in that numbers), with some of these millions coming from people that were deceived by this mislead advertising (or you missed all the complaining threads about that in their forums). If you want to believe that they have those numbers of people in a "silent" community, can you imagine what will happen when they back to the website, to see what is happening.

    What they are. Aliens? They won't complain and will be so good as the big fans are? I am sorry, but CIG fans are thinking only in what in the front of their noses and are not worried about what the CIG decisions could impact in the general public, of their community and possible future buyers (necessary to a long term survival of the game).

    CIG, because they have a different agenda, and fans, you know, are just fans, and does not care, and imagine that the devs know everything and can do everything, "in CR we trust", "they do not owe me nothing", "CR is God" and other creepy messages that we see in their forums.

    But here is the thing.

    They really knows what they are doing, but unfortunately for the fans, it is not related with what they say in their speech. But do not worry. They still will keep them as heroes. Because you know. Some good and dramatic letter of CR accusing publishers of a conspiracy with the press or something like that, will make they elect him as a martyr. They guy is smart. Created a business to feed people hungry, which accepts everything and has the intention to sell their souls just to have a Space Sim.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by jcrg99
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Ender4

    The fact that he went out of his way to define what the ambiguous term he used means to him just shows that your entire post makes no sense at all. If he had come out and defended the finished game with this that would be one thing, defining it before ever releasing the game is nothing but a positive.

    It's 7 pages ago but ^this

    I really don't understand why anyone would create a thread when they answer their own question in it...not to mention act like you've caught him is some type of lie.

    Have you noticed that such "explanation" (where he actually told, "yes, I deceived people in purpose", basically, but using other words without noticing that) came in an interview and not in the Star Citizen descritpion. The place where you bought the copy of the game or neither in its advertising messages/web pages. It continued to have only the NO PAY TO WIN message, without any of such explanations.

    So, a hidden interview that escape from the eyes of the majority of people that won't go so deep in their investigation about the product, is enough then?

     

    I must of missed this interview have you posted a link?...and sorry when people say he said this ( but used other words ) I tend to think someone is reading into things.

    He's selling you a space ship in a space ship game. That's got to send up some red flags to people if they're worried about pay to win to begin with. If you're someone that thinks all cash shops are pay to win or any gear sold in a store is pay to win....then you are an idiot if you were "deceived" into thinking it wouldn't have any "p2w"

    Maybe it's my degree in rocket science but when I saw the game was selling space ships, I didn't want to spend money on it until I see what's going to be available to the free players. If they're all worse than the cash shop ships the game to me wasn't worth playing. 

    I guess for some, spend first and ask questions later seems like the smart play..

  • YumeTsukaiYumeTsukai Member UncommonPosts: 40

    Hi Everyone!

    Leaving conspiracy theories aside, why bash the OP so hard? From his point of view, he tried to warn you. And there are high chances he may be right. How do you I know what? Well... I don't and don't have to, really. Because if you're an MMO player, you''ve already been scammed/burned by the developers at least once and know that for yourself. Their end goal remains profit... And many players always remain dissapointed, waiting for a glitter of hope... 

    I've always thought that if/when I get rich, I would make a MMO game from my own funds so that it would not be affected by the damn greed these days... I would just be happy being able to maintain it and share the joy of each happy player across the world.

    So I can understand where the OP comes from. I'm not really a fan of Star Citizen, but I hope that it will turn out what you (fans)want it to be. Funny part was that just earlier I was reading a thread about Firefall, where some of the founders were not so happy with the game now as they were before....

    And yeah... sorry for the extreme low post count. I have just observed the forums for some time now.

     

    Cheers!

  • KazuhiroKazuhiro Member UncommonPosts: 582
    Meh, I still view all kickstarters as scams. Until one actually launches and doesn't suck, I will continue to hold that view. Not jumping on the Star Citizen rabbid fanboy train myself. Though I do really want a good space sim to come out of it, I too see it likely being a pay2win game. I hope it won't, but it likely will.

    To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,016
    Originally posted by YumeTsukai

    Hi Everyone!

    Leaving conspiracy theories aside, why bash the OP so hard?

    Because I agree with him;

    The game I've been playing for over 10 years barely makes a drop in the consciousness of the Kickstartersphere, falling short of its goal by a little over 40k, while this game comes out of left field and earns 500x the amount, competing in a very similar (and narrow) market... they even have a ship named the Hornet and the Constellation.

    It's... a humbling experience.

    I've learned the best thing for me to do is give the Neo-"Woah", and go about my business.  Wanting a game or company to fail is never a good thing in my book (unless they are exploiting helpless people, promoting hatred or something), but if I really wanted a game to fail the most effective course of action for me would be to eliminate all traces of it from my mind.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • jcrg99jcrg99 Member UncommonPosts: 723
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by jcrg99
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Ender4

    The fact that he went out of his way to define what the ambiguous term he used means to him just shows that your entire post makes no sense at all. If he had come out and defended the finished game with this that would be one thing, defining it before ever releasing the game is nothing but a positive.

    It's 7 pages ago but ^this

    I really don't understand why anyone would create a thread when they answer their own question in it...not to mention act like you've caught him is some type of lie.

    Have you noticed that such "explanation" (where he actually told, "yes, I deceived people in purpose", basically, but using other words without noticing that) came in an interview and not in the Star Citizen descritpion. The place where you bought the copy of the game or neither in its advertising messages/web pages. It continued to have only the NO PAY TO WIN message, without any of such explanations.

    So, a hidden interview that escape from the eyes of the majority of people that won't go so deep in their investigation about the product, is enough then?

     

    I must of missed this interview have you posted a link?...and sorry when people say he said this ( but used other words ) I tend to think someone is reading into things.

    He's selling you a space ship in a space ship game. That's got to send up some red flags to people if they're worried about pay to win to begin with. If you're someone that thinks all cash shops are pay to win or any gear sold in a store is pay to win....then you are an idiot if you were "deceived" into thinking it wouldn't have any "p2w"

    Maybe it's my degree in rocket science but when I saw the game was selling space ships, I didn't want to spend money on it until I see what's going to be available to the free players. If they're all worse than the cash shop ships the game to me wasn't worth playing. 

    I guess for some, spend first and ask questions later seems like the smart play..

    Its about the 6:30 (pay attention of how he starts to explain, his first words - that basically means that he knew about people having different concepts that people had).

    Now, compare what he said with the advertising used...

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen

    Actually I was not mistaken by that, I am probably more smart than you, which claims to be a rocket science, :)- (did not you watch Big Bang Theory to see that you should be ashamed of that? hehehehe), but I know that people in general, are not so smart than you and me, so, I asked CIG to change that info because that is not the right thing to do, and if you ignore that, you definitely will make some people angry, and at this case, with fair reasons. But the reaction of them was... weird, actually, it was offensive, which was indeed a big surprise to me. 

    No. I did not become angry or something with the whole thing. First, I thought that it could be just a few guys trying to protect their jobs of the boss. But I started to try to figure out that, to see what just happened, or if it could be an actual CIG agenda to mislead people to make money...

    From this point, I started to make some "tests" (yeah, I provoked some feedback to see what would be their reactions, because would not make sense - based on my professional feedback - even provoking, but still valid - and not just a 'dumb blind fan feedback' - that it would be a bad thing, IF they had good faith in hear people, respect clients and improve things) and that, PLUS and more importantly, additional things that they have been making since then, in their marketing, clearly shown me what is their agenda, which again, is not what their speech tells.

    One more example, is the ad that they do exactly about the feedback. They ad their product saying that "if you want to have your voice heard, you should join now". An actual compromise of the company with you, the pledger. In other places they used "if you want to say something, say it", and "use the forums to do that, do not use support emails".

    In other words, by doing that, they did not create a forum that is a privilege or something.

    They actually used their forums to fullfill a sales promise, something that they used in their adverstising. They persisted with this notion, saying things like "the game will be just a bonus at the end". Yeah! They are really agressive.

    But here is what the things become interesting. The own Community Manager, had not shame to say later, after many people pledged and participating, that "the forums are a privilege" and not part of the deal!

    Of course it is! They used that in their ad. Ad is part of deal. Or at least, they never can contradict what actually happens. They promised to give such service to their customer, without any limitation. But after you pledged and you start to exercise your right, even that politely and not offending anyone (except those that feel themselves offended and flamed by whatever thing that you said that does not portrait their devs as gods), they consider that thing, a "troll" attitude and ban you, without further notice. Without even have any proof that you did some "forum crime".

    Right now, they advanced to a whole new level, creating forum rules that includes that "you cannot open controversial topics". So, here we have a forum rule, a minor letter, that totally contradicts the ad "if you have something to say, say it".

    And again, they continue to claim that it is not part of the deal, when in their About the game page, there is Chris Roberts advertising that, as well as Eric Peterson in his Wingman's Hangar shows, in many occasions, as well as in many Staff interviews. 

    Just two examples. There are more.

    I could start to talk a little about their way to release physical goods to, but at this point, I think that is not necessary.

    Well... I alerted people here at least, that have some patience to read that.

    I did my good faith action of the day.

    Now I can sleep assured that I tried to help some other customers to understand and evaluates that with all that, and more things, that they can figure out by themselves, if they really can trust in anything that those devs say.

    I definitely think that they shouldn't.

    Definitely, I don't have anything to say anymore, because it starts to become redundant, and if people needs more than that, they are really closed minds which raises these devs as religious entities, and definitely, there is no argument to make this people to wake up.

    My advice for other more reasonable people is waiting for the game release, which considering what they say and comparing with what they release, if happening, with that full vision that they are selling, probably it will happen in some point of 2016 or 2017 (considering here in the same level of other AAA releases in terms of stability and bugs).

    And you know, these delay + this perpetuation of the Money Machine, won't fit with each other. The Money Machine is good now, in their minds, but will make a serious disservice in their image when you put that in the "delay" scenario.

    They won't survive to see another day (year), due the press that they will got, due such delays that people in general, even between their community, won't understand.

    They sometimes used examples of people waiting for games patiently, but they normally are talking about big successes, naturally bought by everyone and with strong  marketing.

    They forgot that this notion does not fit with their niche game (well, they know that, are just telling their usual speech to make their fans to thrown more money in their faces, even in the future, regardless delays).

    So, you do not want to compare you with Blizzard (like CR did recently in another interview). Of course, he did that even knowing and having experience enough to know what his game is and what it can achieve, but he likes to increase the hype, because that means a little more money coming from almost all the time, the same crazy fans.

    For these fans, the only advice is, prepare to play only in  Private Servers, sooner than later and ask that the release of PS's do not be so delayed, just to make sure.

     

  • HairysunHairysun Member UncommonPosts: 1,059
    Originally posted by jcrg99
    Originally posted by Hairysun
    Originally posted by jcrg99
    That has been happening actually. I see more people leaving and decreasing trust than coming to their cause or raising trust, in many circles of fans that I know.

     

     

    Ultimately your last sentence, by definition is what it narrows down to.  Trust.  Individually, do I trust CR to deliver all the things that have been promised?  I do.  I don't go into semantics, dissecting every sentence trying to potentially find ulterior meanings.  I have little to no interest in spending my time doing that.  It comes down to a gut feeling for me.  Whether I'm right or wrong is to be determined.   

     

    You on the other hand, very much have an agenda to maintain.  You put me in mind of either a disgruntled employee or someone hired by the competition to slow the success of SC.

     

    You reek it as a matter of fact ..... how curious.

     

     

    ~Hairysun

     

     

    Success of SC? Such success simply does not exist. No. It does not exist. What exists is a "better start the they imagine", according with the own devs. The remaining is just overhyped fans that they embraced and are each time feeding their hype to acquire more money from them.

    So, you talk about having trust and that  you could be wrong, but still assume that such "success" as a fact, when it is far to be a fact.

    No...

    It's not me with an agenda. It is you. And I just prove that.

    You, with the marketing agenda to hype the game that you believe.

    I am just telling facts about them and their marketing campaign. If that will lead to success or not, I suppose that won't. It would be the first time in the history that a starting company uses of dozen of mislead marketing and survives in the long term. Mislead marketing is not just not ethic, it creates side effects that you are unable to deal later. Your trust is destroyed for good. And CIG is using that, not worried about that, and the reasons is obvious. Because they are just willing to get money and release the game. The future, sooner that you imagine, is just private servers. All those other stories of new campaigns, universe evolving, bi-weekly updates etc etc, won't happen. Just for a few time after release. Your whole experience will be based playing milestones, parts of the game full of bugs and as soon as the "whole vision" be released (if they really achieve that), it won't last. 

    Or... maybe you fans can start to require from them a better marketing, communication and things like that. But I already watched all their arrogance to learn that they have a different agenda that you fans imagine, so they won't sacrifice their profit, only to give to you fans, a long term game.

     

     

    Lol ...... I remember you now.  I'm assuming that since you have shifted your posts from the official SC forums to these forums you have been either banned from them or everyone has you on ignore and no one sees your posts.

     

    From the latest thread over there I could track down I would like to reiterate some of the responses.

     

    ~ there is a reason you get such a negative response on the previous "issues" you have raised is that the Majority of the backers and forum members which have commented on your thread disagree with you, You seem to take this as people are not wiling to discuss problems and concerns.

     

    ~ However, many of your posts have come across as aggressive and negative.

     

    ~ Is it worth unblocking the first three posts, or is it just more of the same? :rolleyes:

     

    ~ It's not that jcrg99 is a bad guy, it's just that he somehow thinks that these game developers work for him.

     

    ~ Of all the posts I've read from you, it comes off as if you have misinterpreted things Chris has said, or have written lengthy posts regarding concerns that have already been answered.

     

    ~ You still do not seem to understand. Your posts are too negative, and quite importantly, they are awful walls of text. Skimming through them to ascertain whether they are worth diving into, one notices the overall negativity as the most imminent feature and stops bothering, with the resulting opinion being something about trolls.

     

    ~ Do you really have to start at least one such negative thread a day? Why? Do you not see the overall reaction to your threads of this nature? Do you really think that the general opinion on you and your threads will improve if you keep posting new ones again and again? What you are doing is actually counter-productive, not only to you, but to Star Citizen as such, since it changes the prevalent mood in the fanbase from positive anxiety to negative grumbling.

     

    ~I rated this thread a "one star" and after I post this I will be adding you to my "Ignore List" and I suggest everyone else does the same. I wanted you to know why since you'll be only the second person I have added to that list.

     

    ~Yes, but I wouldn't recommend it. He contradicts almost every point he tries to make and there isn't a focus or any real point made. It's more of a frustrated all-over-place rant due to nobody agreeing with his opinion on the last several posts he made and blaming it on fanboyism.

     

    ...... and on and on.

     

    It seems you are quite passionate about this game.  Your passion from the get go was remotely positive and then shifted to completely negative.  You know, I can easily respect a persons passion .................. no matter what it is.  You can be passionate about rolling dog shit into little balls and stacking them into pyramids.  If that is what your passionate about, so be it.  I can respect that. 

     

    This however puts a serious WTF into my brain.  What exactly is your means to and end  ...... you didn't get what you were after over there so you decide to bring it here?  The CR gang didn't listen to you over there so now you bad mouth over here?  Based on the frequency of your posts today I can only assume more of the same.  I hate to tell you this but the end result will be the same my friend. 

     

    ~Hairysun 

     

     

     

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by jcrg99

     

     

    Actually I was not mistaken by that, I am probably more smart than you, 

     

    I'm just going to have to agree with you I guess. 

     

    #trynottolaugh

  • KazuhiroKazuhiro Member UncommonPosts: 582
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by jcrg99

     

     

    Actually I was not mistaken by that, I am probably more smart than you, 

     

    I'm just going to have to agree with you I guess. 

     

    #trynottolaugh

    Normally this would be a good ending to this, then you had to go an add a hashtag, that unfortunitely, despite his amusing typo, in fact still makes him smarter than you, simply because he didn't use a hashtag. And regardless of what else he may have said, hashtags immediately drop you into one of the lowest rungs of human intellect.

    To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by Kazuhiro
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by jcrg99

     

     

    Actually I was not mistaken by that, I am probably more smart than you, 

     

    I'm just going to have to agree with you I guess. 

     

    #trynottolaugh

    Normally this would be a good ending to this, then you had to go an add a hashtag, that unfortunitely, despite his amusing typo, in fact still makes him smarter than you, simply because he didn't use a hashtag. And regardless of what else he may have said, hashtags immediately drop you into one of the lowest rungs of human intellect.

    I knew I should of check with you first about that. Sorry wont happen again.

  • bartoni33bartoni33 Member RarePosts: 2,044
    Originally posted by Kazuhiro
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by jcrg99

     

     

    Actually I was not mistaken by that, I am probably more smart than you, 

     

    I'm just going to have to agree with you I guess. 

     

    #trynottolaugh

    Normally this would be a good ending to this, then you had to go an add a hashtag, that unfortunitely, despite his amusing typo, in fact still makes him smarter than you, simply because he didn't use a hashtag. And regardless of what else he may have said, hashtags immediately drop you into one of the lowest rungs of human intellect.

    This is the only true statement in this thread. Yes I read it all.

    OT: I think OP is a former Dev or tried to be one. The butthurt is strong. 

    Or maybe he dropped some ungodly amount on SC and now regrets it. Some of those packages are ridiculous.

    EDIT: I can see the fear of PtW in this or any game. But this game is years out from release. Kinda early to be freaking out. Look at Tabula Rasa. It started out as a fantasy game. Imagine OP complaining about "too much fantasy and elves and trolls! We need more realism in this game!" in the beginning.

    Actually that might have made him look good. OK OP go for it! Keep up the good? fight!image

    Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.


  • IsilithTehrothIsilithTehroth Member RarePosts: 610
    Originally posted by turinmacleod

    WTF is the OP talking about?  

    I bought a ship (a Hornet).

     

     My friend Joe chooses not to support SC, as he wants to wait to see how it turns out.  

     

    On opening day I have a Hornet, Joe has a crappy Cloudhopper (TM), that I easily blow to ribbons in space combat.  Is that PTW?

     

     Given that Joe had the same options as I did, and choose not to utilize them, I would say No.  

     

    Also given that Joe can still, over time, gather the resources to obtain as good a ship as mine, or better even, I again say NO, not Pay to Win.

     

    Once again I find myself glad the OP is not going to play SC, and i sincerely hope that none of his friends play either, so I don't have to deal with this kind of crap.

     

    T

    That is the very definition of a cashshop being P2W. Player A spends money on an item that gives him an advantage that player B cannot obtain through non cashshop means.

    Or

    Player A spends money on an item that would normally take a week to obtain through non cash shop means. Both are examples of P2W, but different levels. World of tanks is an example of a P2W gap that cannot be overcome. While Planetside 2 is one that can be overcome in time, however generally with a cash shop better items are released and other ones are nerfed.

    A non cash shop game where everyone is on equal footing would be a game such as Darkfall online. Despite the grind gap because veteran players and newbs, there is no monetary stigma that gives an artifical advantage. Cash shops are the bane of mmorpgs. They cater to the casual players whom have ruined the genre in the first place. 

    MurderHerd

  • morbuskabismorbuskabis Member Posts: 290


    Originally posted by IsilithTehroth
    Originally posted by turinmacleod WTF is the OP talking about?   I bought a ship (a Hornet).    My friend Joe chooses not to support SC, as he wants to wait to see how it turns out.     On opening day I have a Hornet, Joe has a crappy Cloudhopper (TM), that I easily blow to ribbons in space combat.  Is that PTW?    Given that Joe had the same options as I did, and choose not to utilize them, I would say No.     Also given that Joe can still, over time, gather the resources to obtain as good a ship as mine, or better even, I again say NO, not Pay to Win.   Once again I find myself glad the OP is not going to play SC, and i sincerely hope that none of his friends play either, so I don't have to deal with this kind of crap.   T
    That is the very definition of a cashshop being P2W. Player A spends money on an item that gives him an advantage that player B cannot obtain through non cashshop means.

    Or

    Player A spends money on an item that would normally take a week to obtain through non cash shop means. Both are examples of P2W, but different levels. World of tanks is an example of a P2W gap that cannot be overcome. While Planetside 2 is one that can be overcome in time, however generally with a cash shop better items are released and other ones are nerfed.

    A non cash shop game where everyone is on equal footing would be a game such as Darkfall online. Despite the grind gap because veteran players and newbs, there is no monetary stigma that gives an artifical advantage. Cash shops are the bane of mmorpgs. They cater to the casual players whom have ruined the genre in the first place. 


    Well Dark Fall is in favor of jobless ppl or the once with more time, due to the grind. So no PvP centered game with any progression, be it vertical or horizontal is "fair".

    image -Massive-Industries- Heavy Duty

  • turinmacleodturinmacleod Staff WriterMember UncommonPosts: 166
    Originally posted by IsilithTehroth
    Originally posted by turinmacleod

    WTF is the OP talking about?  

    I bought a ship (a Hornet).

     

     My friend Joe chooses not to support SC, as he wants to wait to see how it turns out.  

     

    On opening day I have a Hornet, Joe has a crappy Cloudhopper (TM), that I easily blow to ribbons in space combat.  Is that PTW?

     

     Given that Joe had the same options as I did, and choose not to utilize them, I would say No.  

     

    Also given that Joe can still, over time, gather the resources to obtain as good a ship as mine, or better even, I again say NO, not Pay to Win.

     

    Once again I find myself glad the OP is not going to play SC, and i sincerely hope that none of his friends play either, so I don't have to deal with this kind of crap.

     

    T

    That is the very definition of a cashshop being P2W. Player A spends money on an item that gives him an advantage that player B cannot obtain through non cashshop means.

    Or

    Player A spends money on an item that would normally take a week to obtain through non cash shop means. Both are examples of P2W, but different levels. World of tanks is an example of a P2W gap that cannot be overcome. While Planetside 2 is one that can be overcome in time, however generally with a cash shop better items are released and other ones are nerfed.

    A non cash shop game where everyone is on equal footing would be a game such as Darkfall online. Despite the grind gap because veteran players and newbs, there is no monetary stigma that gives an artifical advantage. Cash shops are the bane of mmorpgs. They cater to the casual players whom have ruined the genre in the first place. 

    Oh I disagree.  

     

    ANY player can gather the materials to obtain ANY ship in the game, however, people who are willing to throw their money up NOW, in an effort to support the CREATION of the game get a little timesaver.  

     

    It's right up front, it's clear to all and, since the game is PVP optional, it's NOT Pay to Win by my standard.  Your standard may vary, and the devs of SC have been very clear about what their standard is.

     

    If you don't agree with them, you have the option to NOT PLAY, but bitching and complaining about it constantly isn't going to change things.

     

    T

  • IsilithTehrothIsilithTehroth Member RarePosts: 610
    Originally posted by turinmacleod
    Originally posted by IsilithTehroth
    Originally posted by turinmacleod

    WTF is the OP talking about?  

    I bought a ship (a Hornet).

     

     My friend Joe chooses not to support SC, as he wants to wait to see how it turns out.  

     

    On opening day I have a Hornet, Joe has a crappy Cloudhopper (TM), that I easily blow to ribbons in space combat.  Is that PTW?

     

     Given that Joe had the same options as I did, and choose not to utilize them, I would say No.  

     

    Also given that Joe can still, over time, gather the resources to obtain as good a ship as mine, or better even, I again say NO, not Pay to Win.

     

    Once again I find myself glad the OP is not going to play SC, and i sincerely hope that none of his friends play either, so I don't have to deal with this kind of crap.

     

    T

    That is the very definition of a cashshop being P2W. Player A spends money on an item that gives him an advantage that player B cannot obtain through non cashshop means.

    Or

    Player A spends money on an item that would normally take a week to obtain through non cash shop means. Both are examples of P2W, but different levels. World of tanks is an example of a P2W gap that cannot be overcome. While Planetside 2 is one that can be overcome in time, however generally with a cash shop better items are released and other ones are nerfed.

    A non cash shop game where everyone is on equal footing would be a game such as Darkfall online. Despite the grind gap because veteran players and newbs, there is no monetary stigma that gives an artifical advantage. Cash shops are the bane of mmorpgs. They cater to the casual players whom have ruined the genre in the first place. 

    Oh I disagree.  

     

    ANY player can gather the materials to obtain ANY ship in the game, however, people who are willing to throw their money up NOW, in an effort to support the CREATION of the game get a little timesaver.  

     

    It's right up front, it's clear to all and, since the game is PVP optional, it's NOT Pay to Win by my standard.  Your standard may vary, and the devs of SC have been very clear about what their standard is.

     

    If you don't agree with them, you have the option to NOT PLAY, but bitching and complaining about it constantly isn't going to change things.

     

    T

    Just because someone claims an orange is an apple doesn't make it true. Regardless I will still voice my concern on a game, whether casual, game shop advantage weilding kids,like it or not.

    MurderHerd

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